Annalouiza
Arlene Hoag is a hospice volunteer for the Living Dying Project and co-chairman of the committee that presents Mountains of Courage, an annual conference in Bozeman, Montana. This conference in its th year provides a venue for conversations with the living about death and dying. Arlene, recognizing the advantages of living with an awareness of our mortality, is working to help bring about a more positive view of death into our Western culture. She is the mother of five children.
Hello, Arlene.
Arlene Hoag
Hello.
Rev Wakil
So glad to have you with us. Thanks for being willing to share your story and all the work you do.
Arlene Hoag
Yes, yes.
Rev Wakil
So we always start with this question. So when did you first become aware of death?
Arlene Hoag
So as I was growing up on a small farm we had horses and rabbits and chickens. But those animals were not really like close pets and so I did not really have in close
encounter with death as I was growing up.
Both of my grandparents died. Both of my grandmothers died when I was around seven years old and I was not allowed to go to the funerals. And now at this point in my life, I am definitely an advocate for letting kids come to the funerals of their family, family members and get comfortable with death. So I didn't really have any close friends die until a friend of mine in 1999. So we're going to fast forward quite a few years.
She died of breast cancer and she had been quite close because we had children the same ages and we grew up in a community in the Paradise Valley together. So I do have a little bit of a story about her.
After she died, about a month and a half later, I was in a situation where I was meeting with a group of teens and I was going to help them with wilderness skills because that was one of the areas that I had studied. So I'm in this room with, I just walked in and there's a whole bunch of teens and they're just talking together and sitting and kind of waiting to figure out when we were going to start. And someone put on a song, "It's a Wonderful World". And that happened to be Victoria's favorite song. Her daughter, my daughter sang it at her memorial. And all of a sudden, I just burst into tears. I had to sit down and I cried and cried. This room full of teens, they weren't, most of them were not paying attention to me. Eventually I was able to get over that. And one of the takeaways from that is you never know when your grief is just going to kind of bubble up to the surface.
Rev Wakil
So true, yeah.
Arlene Hoag
Later on that same day, I experienced a very close contact with Victoria. We kind of carried on some conversations, just through the ethers. How are you doing? She says, I'm doing great. And I recognized the other takeaway is that when we have something happen, like we hear a song that we know was a favorite of our loved ones, or we see a certain bird that we think is a sign from them or a certain flower, or all these different things that people recognize, oh look my loved one is here. That is an opportunity then I believe to communicate. That you can actually, if you have time and time to just sit down and actually communicate with a loved one when you see a sign like this or hear their favorite song.
Rev Wakil
Yeah, so beautiful. What a beautiful note.
Arlene Hoag
So at this point, I think I'm going to mention one of the things that I have been really wanting to learn how to do is to be with people who are grieving. And at one of our conferences we had a speaker, Gary Roe, and he has written a book, "Please Be Patient, I'm Grieving". And there's a little note on the inside cover where somebody says, boy if I'd had this book when my wife died three years ago I would have handed it out to all my friends, because people do not know what to say.
Annalouiza
Absolutely. Yep.
Rev Wakil
Right
Arlene Hoag
And so they do one of two things. They either leave you alone because they're kind of afraid that they won't know what to say or they say things that are very unhelpful. I won't even cover those. So I think that's really important and what I have learned being a hospice volunteer, one of the things that I've learned is just being a good listener is the main thing that you can do and potentially say what would be the most helpful thing. Is there anything, what would be the most helpful thing for you right now?
Rev Wakil
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Arlene Hoag
I did take care of my mother when she got dementia in about 1994, and she died in our house at the end of 1999. I know my sisters had come to visit before she died, and they were very uncomfortable because she did not recognize them. And even though they knew that was probably going to happen, they were like...
It just made them very uncomfortable. Well, I had been living with it for these five or six years. And so for me, it was very natural and I became her caregiver. And so when she died, my husband said, well, you know, are you okay? You know, you seem to be handling this pretty well. And I said, well, I really lost her five years ago, but I had all that time to grieve as I was taking care of her. So it was not anything sudden. And so I was really grateful for that.
Rev Wakil
Right, right, very good.
Annalouiza
That does seem actually to be a link in a lot of people's stories with regards to our aging parents with dementia. Like, you lose them a lot sooner than their actual death day, right? So
Rev Wakil
So true, yeah.
Arlene Hoag
There is a whole subject, anticipatory grief, that people have written about that exactly refers to that situation. So the main impact on my life with this death and dying field came in 2010 . I went to a Sufi dance camp, a week long Sufi dance camp outside of Portland. And there was a man there, Bodhi Be, who had been invited to give a course, like an hour and 15 minutes every day for the week that we were there, on death and dying. And I was so taken by all his comments things that I had not really considered how our culture really does not deal with death very well and I Remember telling my friend Wow, this is great. Now. I know what I'm gonna be when I grow up even though I was 60 years old it was like oh, yeah, this is it so...
Annalouiza
Ha ha ha!
Arlene Hoag
One of the things that Bodhi said was, as soon as you can remember this every morning, ask yourself, is this the day I'm going to die? And it's not and it's not in any way to be a morbid idea or to instill fear, but if you can let that possibility influence your thoughts and behavior throughout the day in a positive way, you could be acting not from a fear of death, but from the exact opposite acceptance and familiarity with death. Because when we have death sitting on our shoulder, then we might say, you know what, this argument is so not really worth it. Or we know that people might regret when their loved one dies and they think back and they go, oh, what was the last thing that I said to that person? And, oh, we had an argument. And, oh, I wish they were still here so I could say, oh, I'm so sorry. So having that actually in our minds, I think, really helps us live to be more positive, loving human beings.
Rev Wakil
Exactly. Very well put. Yeah. We were blessed to have Bodhi on. So, one of our earlier episodes. So yeah, Bodhi is a big part of this community as well.
Annalouiza
I love that. Yes. And we...
Arlene Hoag
Another thing he had us do was we took these brown paper lunch sacks and we wrote on them what we would have on our gravestone. And then we put them on our heads and we had to wear them around the whole day during this dance camp.
Annalouiza
So fun.
Which was an interesting exercise and there was a lot of people at the camp who were not involved in this class and they were, what are you guys doing?
But it was just another one of those little exercises to bring us more aware. What would you like on your gravestone? What do you want to be remembered by?
Rev Wakil
Yeah, exactly.
Arlene Hoag
And at this point, some people are writing their what they would like to be set at their memorial services. And some people are having their memorial services before they die so that they can be there. So the last thing was that he encouraged everyone to become a hospice volunteer. And so I took that to heart and that was what I did when I got back to Montana.
Annalouiza
Wonderful
Rev Wakil
Yeah, I was actually in that class with you, I believe. And I think that really was a turning point for me as well. So we've got to give Bodhi a lot of credit for getting many of us on the path here.
Annalouiza
Yes, thank you, Bodhi.
Rev Wakil
And he's one of your speakers at the conference, right, that's coming up.
Arlene Hoag
He is the main speaker. Normally we have a keynote who comes in and talks for like an hour and a half. And then we have another all-conference speaker in the morning and then breakout sessions in the afternoon. And he said, you're bringing me all the way from Hawaii. Just use me. I want the entire morning. I want to be able to move the chairs around. Will that work? And et cetera. So yes.
And then at the end, there'll be a question and answer again with Bodhi.
Rev Wakil
Beautiful.
Arlene Hoag
And he's coming a day early, so I'm hoping we can schedule him somewhere. I'm not sure what would be the best place, a school, a church, where to make use of his time.
Rev Wakil
Great.
Annalouiza
Beautiful. So what is your current work?
What are you currently involved with professionally?
Arlene Hoag
Well, I happen to be a bookkeeper. I'm working in a company that my son is the manager of. He actually is completely holding a company together, my son Jesse, so he's my boss. And then starting like in the fall of every year, I am majorly working on putting on our conference. There's really. only two of us who are actively doing this and I'm the main one so that's I am also a volunteer for the Living Dying Project which is centered in the Bay Area and Dale Borglum started that he was friends with Ram Dass and a number of other people who were in that field way back when.
So Dale and Bodhi Be, Ram Dass and Joan Halifax, who is a Buddhist Roshi, put together a really wonderful film series called Dying into Love. And so I got, I, I bought that and watched it several times over and that's how I got connected up with Dale Borglum. I took a weekend course in, I'm not sure what he called it back then, but it's basically conscious dying.
I was in Montana, everyone else was in the Bay area, and he'd turn his computer around and let everybody see me. And now he has the course online. But he had a bi-monthly meeting that I have gone to like over the last 12 years and it's been very helpful.
Annalouiza
Wow.
Arlene Hoag
He is quite the speaker. He says being with a dying is my practice for Becoming enlightened. I mean it's this practice is being with a dying. I'm still doing that and then occasionally I will see if I can be a volunteer for one of their clients. So I am doing that. I was also an active volunteer for our hospice here in Bozeman until the COVID.
And so I haven't been as active in that sense. But basically putting on this conference is one of the most difficult things for me.
I know that's one of the questions you ask - is finding people who are interested in actually volunteering. And once they volunteer and do it, then they say, oh, that was way too much work. And sorry, I'm off the committee. So that's kind of been the story for the last five or six years.
Annalouiza
Haha.
Arlene Hoag
Initially, I was not the head of the committee. There was other people, but they've all kind of moved on.
Rev Wakil
Right. That's a volunteer's dilemma, right? So often we want to be there and participate and do the work and it's hard to find people with the time and the energy and the commitment and the persistence and the resilience and all those things that are needed to carry on. Especially, I think you probably have had this experience too. We try to bring in young people but they've got very busy lives. You know, they don't have time for that.
But I really appreciate that you're doing that work. And it's very, very important work. And glad you're doing that.
What would help you feel supported with those challenges or with the work that you do or just in your life in general?
Arlene Hoag
Well, I think part of it is just, it's something that I need to do inside and not feel, so sometimes when I mention, well, what's your conference about? And I say, conversations with the living on death and dying. People react. They, you know, not always like, oh, we need that so much, but sometimes like, why are you doing that?
And then other times I get a very positive reaction. We have somebody who recently moved to our area, Tajali, and she was saying, this is so important. I am so glad you're doing this. How can I help support you? So it's just having people be open to the idea that it's okay to talk about death and dying.
So I guess that would be it.
Rev Wakil
Yeah, finding those people who can hold us in our community.
Annalouiza
Yeah.
We hear that a lot.
Rev Wakil
Exactly. And Tajali is a wonderful person. I know her too. She's amazing. She's really amazing. So I'm glad she's there.
Annalouiza
So our next question is what frightens you about the end of life?
Arlene Hoag
Well, since, for the last 14 years, since I've been studying end of life field, I feel like I've gotten way more comfortable with the idea of my own death. And then the other thing is having all these videos available on the near-death experience that people, and where they just go, it's the most wonderful, beautiful, loving place. You can't imagine there's nothing to fear. So I feel like that has helped me over the years. I guess the thing that
would be the most scary is if something happened when I was away from my family and dying all by myself and my dream that I'm hoping to put into place. I recently listened to Stephanie and Jeffrey's interview that you guys did is to have some idea that my death is coming and to gather people around and to be able to just see them and say goodbye and to have that kind of an experience.
I know in the past I've had friends who have been in the middle of dying and they did not say anything to their like dance community or they were just they didn't want anybody to know I guess I'm not really sure and I felt like wow I didn't have an opportunity to come and say goodbye. I know Stephen Jenkinson who is somebody that Bodie interviewed or he was a friend he's called the grief walker from Canada, Stephen Jenkinson, he talks about our deaths being, it's like a gift to the community, this last supper type of idea. And I really like that concept.
Annalouiza
I did too. And as a Sufi, every moment is potentially your last. So I have to encourage, myself to always treat the dinners and the brunches and the walks with friends as potentially the ultimate one and treasure them.
Rev Wakil
Yeah, we had a Reverend Mabry was one of our guests a while back. And I remember his comment as a pastor, how he wished that people in his congregation would let him know when they had a death going inside. He said, often they don't. And I don't understand that, you know, even of pets, you know, he was talking about specifically pets, he said, I want to be there. I'm their pastor. I want to be there for them, but they keep it to themselves. And that's, I love the idea Arlene of it being a gift.
Annalouiza
Mm-hmm.
Rev Wakil
...to your community and to your friends and your beloveds to share what's going on with you and share that most sacred time. Thanks for that.
Arlene Hoag
So I have a story about my first hospice client. I visited this man, Dell for several months every week and we did develop a very strong bond. And then I remember I went out of town and I said, I'm gonna have to miss next week.
And I remember him being quite distressed by that. And I said, but I'll be back, it's okay. So I did leave town and I came back and visited him as soon as I got back anas it turns out, I ended up being, this man lived by himself, I ended up being the last person to see him alive. And I almost felt that, you know, did he wait for me to come back because he died just a couple hours later.
Annalouiza
Wow.
Arlene Hoag
And I was wishing that I had been more aware of the fact that I can't just pretend like these visits are going to go on week after week. But so in hindsight, that's this whole idea of, is this the last time? And it was the last time we had a very nice visit. But I think I would have done things differently if I had been more aware at the time.
Rev Wakil
Mm-hmm.
Annalouiza
Mm-hmm.
That's beautiful.
Rev Wakil
One of the questions we like, and I think is important to help all of us understand better, is how you keep yourself resourced. What kind of practice or prayer or whatever you have that helps you be resourced? You spoke about community, which is, of course, very important and can be very much a part of that. But is there anything else you would want to share with us about how you keep yourself resourced to continue to do this work?
Arlene Hoag
Well, I would say listening to inspiring podcasts, listening to things that will help me de-stress, so taking time off. And I kind of do this on a daily basis because sitting in front of my two monitors for like five or six hours a day doing my bookkeeping is actually very mentally challenging, right?
There's so many wonderful inspirational books. So I leave my office and go up to my bedroom and pick out a book and read. I'm an avid reader. That really helps me to de-stress. We have a nice property. So in the good weather, I just go out to our backyard. We have a little pond with ducks.
Right now it's snowing and everything is covered. It is perfectly white. So it's beautiful, but we have some wonderful weather all late spring, summer and fall. So being outside, yeah, going for a walk.
Rev Wakil
Yep, another one of the themes that we hear. Nature is what helps us stay connected, yeah.
Annalouiza
Yeah, it is.
Annalouiza
And grounded and resourced, yeah.
Arlene Hoag
With a lot of people and this is what happened with me with my mom because I didn't have any idea about home funerals when somebody dies you very shortly very quickly you call up the funeral home, right and then they come over and pick up the body and because I think a lot of us are just scared, you know? Here's a dead body and we don't know what to do. I believe there is so much value in not calling the funeral home immediately.
So in Montana, it's actually legal to wait 48 hours, 48 hours, two days.In California it's three days but I'm not suggesting that people necessarily need to wait that long but even taking the time. They can gather, they can wash the body, dress the body. You don't have to be an expert to be able to do this. You're not going to harm the person whatsoever. It can be a very important ritual.
And then, find that space for the body to rest. Either you can have a memorial service in your house or just have your friends come by so that they can actually sit with the body and say goodbye. And...
For the most part, you don't need to do anything special unless it's a really hot day. Then you might need to think about getting dry ice or something. But if you're talking about just six or eight hours, I think it makes such a huge difference because even if the person doesn't die in your home, you can bring the body home and have it there.
And it's not like, we're trying to put the funeral homes out of business. It's just, they whisk the body away. And, and that's, I, I really don't think that's a good idea. I think it's really important to be able to take time. And people have called me up when a friend has died and they knew I did home funerals, they said, how much time do we have?" And I said you have 48 hours. And so they didn't need that much time, but they were so happy that they had the rest of the night or, you know, whatever to do their own rituals.
Annalouiza
Mm-hmm.
I really appreciate that Arlene, because it is something that the world over in this culture does not understand or know, unless you're a person of color or an indigenous person, and that is actually something that we do. And to offer this up for folks in hospitals. So when my sister died a few years ago, I preempted anybody whisking us out and I asked them to give us three hours minimum so that we could, I did that. I dressed my sister, her friend came and we washed her and we had a short memorial there for her.
And the hospital was really surprised by this. And I said, well, you need to normalize this as for everybody. People need to know that they can do this. And in Colorado, we do have three days and we are also legally allowed to leave with our bodies, our loved one's body, but that hospital also gave me a hard time about that.
And it generally is like the, my home funeral director mentor said that she had often been called by indigenous people trying to like leave with their bodies and being told no. And she had to show up with paperwork and say, no, it's actually totally legal. Like leave us alone. So thank you for sharing that and spreading the word. It's so valuable and so sweet and just lovely.
Arlene Hoag
And then the children, the children can come. This is so great. And then if it is helpful to prepare ahead of time, if you have advanced notice and getting a cardboard box that people can draw on, that's a favorite thing for people to do when they're coming to visit is to add their artwork to the cardboard coffin. And...
Yeah, it just brings it home because everyone needs to realize that that's what's happening with everyone in this life. And I don't know how we got to the state where nobody likes to talk about it. I'm not sure how that happened. But other cultures do death and dying differently.
Wakil
Yeah, so respectful.
Annalouiza
Definitely.
Rev Wakil
And that's our whole goal here, to create that space. So that's again, we really appreciate people like yourself doing that work and willing to talk with us and keep bringing that forward that this is something that's just part of life and it's a beautiful part of life. It's one of the more sacred moments in our lives.
Annalouiza
Mm-hmm.
Arlene Hoag
Exactly, exactly.
Annalouiza
Yeah.
Rev Wakil
So I think you kind of did a good job of answering our questions before we asked them, which is great.
Annalouiza
Ha ha! I know, she just like preempted everything.
Wakil
You got it, you got it before we had to ask. So is there anything else you'd like to share before we go to the poem?
Arlene Hoag
Um, not that well, I would like for you to add to the links this book. "Please be patient. I'm grieving."
Rev Wakil
We will.
Arlene Hoag
I think that would, if people could actually get comfortable with the fact that they don't have to say anything, and they can just show up with, to someone who's grieving and just be there. They don't have to say anything. They just have to be a good listener. And, and then for sure not ask questions like aren't you over it yet or you know I mean I don't know if anybody still does that but there is this concept of how long it's normal to grieve and everyone is different and it's so important to not abandon the grieving person but at the same time be there for them and let them know they get to do it however they want.
Annalouiza
Right. So I like this, um, the segue from me too, because, you know, I've been, I've had phone calls by people who are like, I don't know what to say. I don't know what to say to them. And usually I say, I'm sorry. And just stand there and just be willing to bear witness to whatever grief comes out. The next thing I would say is instead of having people say, what can I do instead, just be like, I'll be bringing over supper or I'm going to check on you in a week, but actively do the thing instead of waiting for people to know what they need because in the spiral of grief, you don't know anything except this huge well of tears and sadness. It's a...
Arlene Hoag
Hole.
Annalouiza
Yeah, a hole. You we can all start saying, hey, go offer dinner for your friends. Just go just drop it off. Don't even worry about it. So I appreciate that we need to start practicing this with each other and reminding each other what to do.
Arlene Hoag
And I'm sure some people want to be left by themselves and other people do not want to be left by themselves. They'd rather have their best friend there holding their hand. And so they're the only ones that can tell you that. So just figuring out, yeah. Do you want company or would you rather be by yourself?
Annalouiza
That's good. You give them a choice.
Rev Wakil
Yeah, and you can also be an advocate for them, you know, and say, I'll make sure people aren't bothering you. If you'd rather not be bothered, I can do that for you. Yeah, thank you. That's really good. Such good stuff. Thank you so much.
Annalouiza
Yes, thank you Arlene. Woo!
Arlene Hoag
You are welcome. Thank you so much. Yeah.
Rev Wakil
Well, go ahead. You can read your poem to us if you would like.
Arlene Hoag
Okay, and this kind of comes from a little bit of a Sufi viewpoint of I am just another you.
Arlene Hoag
And I'm getting it from a book by Adrienne Heidemann, Bernie Heidemann's wife, who wrote a lot of the poems in this book. And she would read them in between the dances, but this one happens to be from Hafiz.
There is a wonderful game we should play,
and it goes like this:
We hold hands and look into each other's eyes
and scan each other's face.
Then I say, "Tell me a difference
you see between us. "
And you might respond, "Hafiz, your nose
is ten times bigger than mine!"
Then I would say, "Yes, my dear, almost
ten times!"
But let's keep playing.
Let's go deeper, go deeper.
For if we do, our spirits will embrace
and interweave,
our union will be so glorious
that even God will not be able to tell us apart.
Annalouiza
That's so lovely! So childlike, so sweet.
Rev Wakil
So beautiful. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, Hafiz has a wonderful way of making spirituality fun, playing those games. We will add those books and a reference to the conference to our podcast notes.
Arlene Hoag
Oh yes, "mountains of courage" and I did want to just comment that even if you cannot attend, Bodhi has said yes, we can record his keynote that two and a half hour, many hours in the morning and then we'll have it available for some nominal price up on our website for those people because they're there's people, lots of people who aren't close enough to come, although we do have ladies that come every year from, it's about, I forget exactly where they live in South Idaho, but it's a long trip. And they make it every single year and come to this conference, so...
Annalouiza
Beautiful.
Rev Wakil
Yeah, wonderful.
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