Wakil (00:18.191)
Welcome everyone. On this episode, we will meet LiElla Kelly. LiElla is a nationally recognized NEDA National End of Life Dula Alliance, proficient end-of-life Doula, and after-death educator. She's the founder of Leaving Well, a groundbreaking business that serves individuals and families who seek to navigate end-of-life transitions with grace, dignity, and peace.

Her clients are those who understand the importance of planning and who wish to approach death with openness and preparedness. Those who believe that we can do death better. That's something we certainly believe here. LiElla brings a unique blend of passionate care and practical experience to her work. Her role is to ensure that the dying know their options, that their voice is heard, and that their loved ones can make the most of their final moments together.

LiElla's process is all about preparation. To meet the needs of her clients, LiElla created End of Life Essentials, a program designed to fill the gaps in end-of-life preparation and serve as a roadmap for families. LiElla stands beside her clients, whether preparing for end-of-life or actively dying, offering education, a steady hand, and a compassionate heart. Together, they create a plan that honors the wishes of the individuals and their loved ones, ensuring a smoother, more meaningful transition. The result is a better death experience. One marked by clarity, comfort, and connection. 

Wow. Beautiful. Perfect. 

LiElla Kelly (02:26.506)
Thank you very much.

Wakil
It's, but yeah, that's really what we're all about here is helping people to normalize. First of all, normalize this conversation. And then secondly, to know the ways that they can prepare. So, so glad that you're here. Thank you for coming.

LiElla Kelly (02:43.011)
Thank you so much for having me. I am always up for a good chat about end-of-life, so I'm thrilled to be invited.

Wakil (02:50.917)
Great, and I'll just mention here that Annalouisa, the co-host is having some family things going on and may join us later. But for now, we'll go on with just myself. And so we always begin with this first question, which is a good way to start. How did you first become aware of death or when?

LiElla Kelly (03:10.733)
I would say that it was a bit of a gradual, I was introduced to aspects of death. The first funeral that I remember, I think I was about seven years old, and it was a graveside service for a woman, an old Swiss woman that I had grown very fond of. Her name was Hilde. And I just remember that experience of being in the cemetery as it was very difficult for me. I remember almost feeling ill at it. 

The next year my dad was in a very bad accident and he was in a coma for about five weeks and several times During that coma we were told that this is the end and you need to go and say goodbye And I was about eight years old at that time and my dad did not die He came out of the coma and we still have him today. But you know, that was another just like preparing that this is going to happen. Right about the time that my dad woke up from his coma, my aunt, was at the time 35, was diagnosed with a terminal illness called amyloidosis. 

Wakil (04:24.837)
Wow.
Yeah.

LiElla Kelly (04:40.791)
And she died when she was 36 years old. And that, I think that was the big one for me, where it was just, I just had these little pieces of somebody that I knew, but wasn't as close to, and then like, maybe my dad's gonna die and then my dear aunt did die. so it was a process kind of through those, I would say that was about a three year period.

Wakil (04:50.585)
Yeah.
Yeah, wow. That's influential at that age especially. I think a lot of people at that age never get any connection to that because people tend to not talk about it. But that's a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing that. Well, that leads really well into, can you tell us a little bit about how those deaths or how death in general impacts your life, your story?

LiElla Kelly (05:21.177)
Well, one of the things that I am extremely passionate about in my work, I'm a death doula, which you had mentioned, but one of the things I really focus on is after death care and encouraging families to engage with their loved one in that time period right after they die. And I know that when my auntie died, I remember she was in California, we were in Idaho. And I remember the question coming up for my dad of do you want to see your sister? Should we make arrangements so that when you do arrive in California, you'll be able to see her? 

And I remember my parents discussing it and them deciding, no, we don't want to see her. And even at that age, I remember thinking, I would like to see her. I didn't speak up at that time. 

Wakil (06:09.083)
Mm-hmm.

LiElla Kelly (06:20.883)
But even at that point, I was just like, I really think that I would like that has always stuck with me. And when we have had, you know, some of like when my great grandfather died, I actually was able to be with him at the time. And, and it was just very important to me. Even just to sense the changes that happened from, you know, one minute he was breathing and then he wasn't. And, you know, just that, that energy that is in the body and then, and now it's seeping out.

Wakil (06:49.24)
Yeah.

LiElla Kelly (06:49.899)
And then as my other grandparents have passed away, it's been important for me to be with them also. And so that is just, I know how profound that is for me. And so it's something that I think is very important to bring to other people as well.

Wakil (07:05.295)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a very profound and sacred moment, that moment when people take their last breath. And for those of us who work in this world and have experienced that, Ithink it is like it's like the most sacred time, the most beautiful time, the most intensely connected time. It's like life and yeah, it's such an important thing. So thank you for that's really true. And I really appreciate that. And I can see how that would be guide you in what you're doing nowadays, what you're doing these days, especially the work you're doing with end of life. 

I like what you said about working with people after too, because ritual and ceremony and whatever, just making time to really notice everything that's going on in the family and with each other. So important. So can you talk a little more about that? Talk a little more about what your role, your current role, your work is and the kinds of things that are, are lifting you up or giving you meaning in your life right now.

LiElla Kelly (08:09.773)
Well, as you mentioned in the intro, I work a lot with the preparation side. Ijust, I am a planner just by nature. And so that makes me very comfortable and the comfort that that brings me, I assume that that brings other people comfort as well. And of course that has proved true in dealing with people. 

And it seems that when people are, most of the people that I deal with are they have some kind of a terminal diagnosis. This is not that they have reached old age and they're gonna naturally fall asleep. is, know, something is cutting their life shorter. And there are so many emotions that are going into that and so many things that they don't know what to expect. 

And so I really find it important, you know, to come in and just start having conversations about, you know, what are your concerns? Is there something that maybe I have experience in or I might know somebody who has experience in and we can find this together so that they're never alone in this process. Because I think what happens a lot in our system, we hear that death doulas, they fill gaps. That's something that you hear all the time. 

Wakil (09:22.661)
Yeah.

LiElla Kelly (09:30.935)
Well, death doulas come in and they fill the gaps. But a lot of times we don't really explain what that means. And so for me, what that means is that when a person receives a diagnosis, that might be through an oncologist. And then they work with that person for treatment, but then they might shift into palliative care. And now they have a new set of doctors and personnel involved in that. And then we're shifting into hospice, and then we're going to shift into some, the funeral professionals. And so what I feel that my role is, is to be the constant flow all the way through that. So as these, we need all these different people to come in and out during the process. But I feel like there also needs to be a stabilizing force there. 
And that's what I feel like I can provide people is, you know, that I will be there through each and every one of these transitions. Wakil (09:59.067)

Wakil (10:16.091)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

LiElla Kelly
And I think that does provide a lot of comfort for people. And so that makes me feel so good.

Wakil (10:23.503)
Yeah, yeah, that's great. That's that kind of through line. That's perfect. That's a really good description of the work that could that a doula does or ideally a doula that you're doing anyway as a doula. And you had also mentioned when we were talking before about a little podcast that you do. Can you tell us a little more about that?

LiElla Kelly (10:42.519)
Yes, I think it was about two and a half years ago that I started. A friend of mine is a big was she's passed away now, a big fan of podcasts, just loved them. And she just thought that the stuff that I was into was interesting. So she really encouraged me to start this little podcast. Okay. So, yes, I have a little podcast that I do. I actually call it a mini cast because it's pretty short. Sometimes they're only like seven minutes long or so. 

But what I do is whenever I come across a story that's related to death or dying that I find interesting, it gives me a chance to just indulge myself in researching that topic and then presenting it for people. And a lot of times I do try and tie it into kind of our modern life and what can we learn from this practice. You know, so I've done things about like Victorian mourning and you know how elaborate they were in their mourning process and then juxtapose that against where we are today. Are there things that we could learn from that? I do just odd topics like I just recently did one on sin eating. If you're not familiar with that perhaps you should give it a listen. 

Wakil (13:24.033)
Yeah, I definitely want to hear that.

LiElla Kelly
I've done Viking Burial, should children be around death? Just kind of anything that's popping up in my life, it's an opportunity for me to look into.
Wakil (13:36.557)
That sounds great. I can't wait to to check that out and audience should definitely check it out. It sounds like a really fascinating subject. Thanks for that. Great. 

Can you tell me a little more about when you go into a new situation? What is it that you're looking for? What is it that you are… like maybe describe a day in the life, if you will, when you walk into a new situation with people.

LiElla Kelly (14:05.609)
The, the first thing, you know, after the introductions and everything, I'm looking for what are the big stressors for this person and for their loved ones at this point in time? You know, what, what is the thing that's, that's really hard? And sometimes it's just even managing the amount of friends who want to help. 

Wakil (14:27.578)
Yeah.

LiElla Kelly (14:35.523)
You know, it can be, there's so many things that can just put little pressures, even if they are really well intended things. And so just how can we start managing all these little pieces and bring them into, you know, make them workable. And then the most important thing, excuse me, the most important thing is then to figure out what are this person's goals moving forward? What, you know, what is our main objective that we are going to be trying to accomplish? And what do we need to do now? What pieces can we put in place to make that happen.

Wakil (15:06.765)
Yeah, great. Yeah, I love that. And then I, you know, it's funny that you mentioned the friends showing up. Just recently, we did a little premium broadcast that I'll tell you why it's good that my wife actually has had a terminal diagnosis. And so we're dealing with all that stuff right now. You know, it's like, after all these years of doing this work, it's suddenly very real for us. 

And, but one of the pieces that I really noticed was the really, we have a wonderful community, a very large spiritual community, a wonderful group of friends. And, all the ways that they showed up was wonderful and beautiful and the prayers and all that was great, but some of them showed up and maybe inappropriate ways. Right. 

And so we did a podcast called being with grief, and talked about what, just what you're saying is that sometimes people in the, with the best intentions are not really considering whether this is their need…

LiElla Kelly (16:06.103)
Exactly.

Wakil
… or the need of the person who's in that position, right? And so, you know, I took on, I dropped everything else to be like the full-time, what goes in, what goes out, you know, who shows up, who, you know, the social director, you know, and of course all the different appointments and all that kind of stuff. Good news, she's doing really well right now, but it was just for a while there. It was like so many people just, you know, I wanted to show up, wanted to be there and I get it.

But at some point we're saying, well, does this about you or about her? Does she want this many people? And so for me as the of the referee or as a doula, as you would be saying, it was like, OK, we could have one person a day for no more than 30 minutes 

LiElla Kelly (16:50.943)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Wakil (17:02.245)
And line them up, make a calendar. And again, check in with her and say, this somebody you want to see? Maybe not. Maybe it's somebody she's in… doesn't know or doesn't care. mean, people, a lot of people were just sort of reacting to responding to the news, right? And feeling like, I need to go see this person. 

And so I love that you mentioned that it brought that up. It's really important. I think the important thing that we've really found and that we talked about in this podcast is first of all, check in and make sure that it's really something that's going to be valuable to the person and check in with the people who are helping them. And the second of all, forgive yourself when you do it wrong, you know?

LiElla Kelly (17:07.639)
Right, exactly.
Yes. Yeah, because we're all going to, you know, a lot of times I've talked with people about the things that we shouldn't say when somebody, you know, there's, there's kind of a list of the little things that they're just not a good idea. And we've all done it at some point or another.

Wakil (17:33.048)
Ha ha ha ha.
Yes. Yeah.

LiElla Kelly (17:58.039)
So yeah, we're, we're imperfect people. It's yeah, but the thing that I always try and help my clients to understand is that they run the show. This is their death, this is their show. So whatever it is that they want, we can make happen. And if I need to be a gatekeeper for them, I will do that. But a lot of times we've been raised to be very polite and just let things...

Wakil (18:25.136)
Right.

LiElla Kelly (18:27.127)
… let things happen and this just isn't a time and it's I'm not saying that we need to be rude or anything but we do need to set up the boundaries that are best for us and there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that and a lot of times that is what the doula role is it's just empowering people to be able to say these are the things I actually want and and we can support them so that they don't kind of get run over by the stronger personalities the very

Wakil (18:55.003)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

LiElla Kelly (18:55.809)
And again, very well intended, but.

Wakil (18:58.159)
Yeah, that's so great. Such an important part to have an advocate that can be there for you and can support you in what you really want and make sure that you have a way to express what you really want. Because as you said, lot of people will just kind of, especially when they're in that space and they're disabled in some way, it's just hard to create those boundaries. So what a great choice that you give them something to think about, something to look for.

Wakil (19:25.975)
So what are your biggest challenges in the work that you're doing?

LiElla Kelly (19:31.595)
Right now, it's simply that people don't know what it is that I do. When I do have the opportunity to really explain, people always are just, oh that's a great thing. We really need that in our culture. But there's so many people who will come up and say something like, so how's that hospice thing you do going?.

 And it's just that they don't  they don't know exactly how it is that, yes, I'm very complimentary to hospice, but how do these people really, how can they serve you? And so that, think the importance of just educating, that's part of the thing with My Little Death Becomes Her podcast is just explaining, bringing it around to people like, so this is kind of what we do. 

Wakil (20:02.629)
Yeah.

LiElla Kelly (20:24.183)
This is another aspect of what we do. It's just having as many conversations as possible wherever we can have conversations. And so I think the challenge right now is just educating our society in general about what we can do and how we can kind of shift the way we've been doing death.

Wakil (20:40.601)
Yeah, perfect. That's exactly what we hope for. So thank you. Yeah, I agree. And what do you do? I guess two kind of questions around that. How do you address those? Or what do you do that helps you feel supported? mean, do you have some practices or some ways of just supporting yourself, self-care, if you will, that help you keep going, help you?
when you're feeling overwhelmed or help you just stay grounded and ready for another meeting, another time.

LiElla Kelly (21:14.873)
Well, this has been an exceptionally difficult year for me. I'm a very active person. so September of 2023, I was mountain biking and I ripped up my knee and was really waylaid. And so one of my outlets is being able to go, go, go and be outside. And suddenly that was taken away.

A couple months later, one of my best friends died by suicide and I was still, I hadn't even had surgery yet and I was just like stuck and, had to have another surgery randomly. Just things kept piling up on me and I just felt like I was, I was just kind of drowning. 

And especially having lost my friend who was the sounding board, you know, that I could talk about all of my deathy stuff with her. It was just, it was hard to have, you I lost my physical outlet. I lost my friend outlet all at once. And it's been, it's been a process trying to get my balance back. 

Wakil (22:32.581)
Mm-hmm.

LiElla Kelly (22:44.415)
And, you know, I'm, back to being, I live in Montana. I love to be outside. And so I've been, and we've had a beautiful fall. So I've just been taking advantage of that finding, you know, not just relying on the one friend that I don't have anymore, but realizing that there are more people around that I can bring in, which sometimes it's just hard to …

Wakil (22:57.828)
Yeah.

Wakil (23:07.931)
Mm-hmm.

LiElla Kelly (23:13.801)
… you're comfortable with the one thing, but you know, just realizing that I do have other people to support me and just letting them, letting them into my life a little bit more. 

Yeah, I have a spiritual practice that is important to me. And so I just, you know, I try and keep a balance with, you know, my relationships with my spirituality, with my physical activities. And yeah, and it doesn't, I'm not perfect at it. this year, this year showed that it was, you know, it's just, it's just a challenge when, life gets thrown at you to, keep it all going. 

Wakil (23:34.084)
Sure.

LiElla Kelly (23:42.507)
But what I did find is I, I've had some, like my most recent client that passed away, it's hard and it's sad and it makes me happier than almost anything else that I do.
Wakil (23:49.519)
Mmm. Mmm.

Wakil (23:57.52)
Yeah.

LiElla Kelly
It just, I get a lot of joy knowing that I'm helping people in such a meaningful time in their life. so, whereas I know a lot of people are scared at that time of life, for me, just reinvigorates me to know that I've been able to be helpful.

Wakil (24:11.097)
Yeah, that's beautiful. I think our number one answer to that question is always getting into nature, you know…

LiElla Kelly (24:18.989)
Yeah.

Wakil (24:40.709)
… which is, of course that's, that's, that's the way we can reconnect and feel our connections and better and see, you know, what, what better way to be in the midst of life and death, right. And see how it works, you know, and see that it's always continuing. And so, yeah, great, great. I have friends in Montana. I love that part of the world.
We'll talk a little more after we're done recording. 

Good. Well, thank you. That's really great. I really appreciate that you have those practices and that you hold that as an important thing. Is there anything about the end of life that you would feel frightened about?

LiElla Kelly (24:58.561)
I think the main thing that bothers me is the idea of missing out. I'm not scared of death, but I think even with my friend who's gone, I'm just like, boy, the things that have happened in the last 11 months, so many times. Well, and I do text them to her still, but I'm just like you gotta know what's going on here. You would love this. I just think about that like, I would hate to be missing out on what my friends are doing, my family's doing, my son's doing.

Wakil (25:39.813)
Yeah, I understand that. And is there anything that you've found that helps with that? That helps you kind of work out, deal with that fear?

LiElla Kelly (25:52.958)
You know, I feel like just being mindful of what we have going on. It's so easy to go just to go through life without paying attention to really, you know, we're all so busy and it's so easy to, know, I got to do this, this and this today and then I'm in bed and then tomorrow I'm going to do it all over again and just really taking the time to stop and, know, notice how good that cup of coffee is in the morning. 

Wakil (26:25.071)
Yeah.

LiElla Kelly (26:43.703)
You know, just, it doesn't have to be these huge profound things, but we have a lot to be grateful for in our lives. And sometimes it can be really hard to see that, especially when times are very hard, but just trying to slow down enough and you know, and take advantage of, know, don't wait for things. Don't put things off of, know, someday I'm going to do that thing I really want to do. Why not start working on it now?

Wakil (26:53.485)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

LiElla Kelly
You know, because I don't, if you do it now, well, that's one thing I'm not going to miss out on if I've already done it.

Wakil (26:59.835)
Right, right, there you go. That's great. Yeah, I teach a class and Annalouiza and I both teach classes, know, preparing for preparing for end of life. She specializes more in the ritual and advanced care directives and that kind of thing. And then I have one that's very, and I'm actually going to link to your stuff that you've got, I think, so people can, I'm always picking up new resources, you know, so I'll put it in my resource list for people to.
get to look at the work that you did, in your introduction, you talked about, maybe you can tell me a little more about that, about what you put together to help fill the gaps in the life planning. But part of that class is always, yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot that we need to do. There's all the legal stuff, all the advanced care stuff. And in the state of Washington, there's actually a dementia care that you can fill out.

LiElla Kelly (27:54.964)
yes.

Wakil (27:56.315)
Other things like that, but there's also the practical things like just making sure people have a List of your contacts and know how to get to them and and know your passwords and know where the car keys are you know there's all these little things you know 

LiElla Kelly (28:08.012)
It's it. Yeah.

Wakil (28:24.644)
And so It can be overwhelming and what you said is you you get you don't have to do everything right now But just pick one and do you know work on it step at a step at a time and I love to that it reminded me of Thich Nhat Hanh’s like peaceful steps upon the earth. this sense of every washing the dishes can be a sacred act. And every step can be noticing that we are connected and that spirit is all around us and that we're living a life and that we have so much to be grateful for. 

So thank you for reminding our audience and me. So important. 

Is there anything you wish we had asked or I'd asked you about that you'd like to tell me?

LiElla Kelly (29:08.429)
I guess the thing, you know, just going back to, like I said, my main passion is after-death care…

Wakil (29:16.623)
Yeah.

LiElla Kelly (29:36.353)
… and helping families to understand that. One of the things that after I've been with a family for a couple sessions, I will usually bring that up just like, I don't know if you're aware of this, but these are options that you have.

And once I explain what it is, a lot of people do feel like, you know, I would like my loved one to dress me. 

Wakil (29:45.563)
Mm-hmm.

LiElla Kelly (30:03.097)
I would like that instead of, you know, the idea of a stranger taking over that role. And the conversations that have happened around that, just, I want people to be aware of that, that this is an option that we so often just kind of get put into this little system of a person has died and we make this call and now we do this and this and this. 

But I just, want people to know all about their options. And, you know, with that, that friend that I mentioned, that was the first time that I got to do the care for one of my own, because I mean, you have, you have to have somebody you love die…

Wakil (30:25.775)
Yeah, yeah.

LiElla Kelly (30:32.749)
… in order to be able to, you know, I can educate people on this. I know how to do it. I help people do it, but that was the first time that I did it for myself. 

Wakil (30:34.981)
Wow.

LiElla Kelly (30:58.531)
And the time that I got to spend with her, just, I wouldn't trade it for anything. And so that is, that's part of my big mission is just that I want everyone to know about that little piece that is out there. 

And you can have your traditional funeral. You don't have to do home funeral in order for this little thing to happen. It's just the time period right after someone dies. And I think it can be so profound for people and just really settle them down to be able to take that time with their loved one and to be able to absorb everything that is happening during that time.

Wakil (30:59.568)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we've talked about there are different laws in different parts of the country and different parts of the world. But at least in Denver, where Annalouiza is, she found and she had to look find this out herself because they weren't going to tell her this, that she could keep her sister died. She could keep the body with her for three days legally. 

LiElla Kelly (31:37.837)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Exactly.

Wakil (31:44.729)
So people could have the old, you know, the old scenes of the grandma in the parlor, you know, that that's really the way it used to always be, you know, and there's even now there's a technology that I've been seeing of how to keep the body cool, you know, that's like little cool sheets, you know, that you can find online. So there's all these things that people don't know about that. Yeah. And also, I wonder if you're also thinking, if you're also talking about when you said that, I wonder beyond that, like, just disposition of the body or memorials or do you go, do you work with people on that kind of thing as well?

LiElla Kelly (32:12.715)
I do try and educate people just about all of the options that exist. So one of the online courses that I created, it's called Streamlining Funeral Planning. that's just a free course that anybody can sign up for. But I walk through, this is what traditional burial is. These are the things that you can expect related to that. This is how cremation works. This is what aquamation is or alkaline hydrolysis.

This is what natural organic reduction is. so whether it's something that's available in their state where they live, just so that they have an understanding or, when we hear that term green burial or natural burial, what are we talking about? And then encouraging people now that you know all of these things, which ones align with what you want? 

Wakil (33:02.736)
Yeah.

LiElla Kelly (33:10.507)
And, you know, just helping people to, walk through those just clearly, you know, this is, this is what it is and then just to get at least thinking on it. And I think one of the benefits of doing it online is that they don't have to have the difficult conversation with their family member first. don't have to go and try and track down this information somewhere. They can just look and be like, okay, yeah, that one's not for me. That one's not for me. but this one over here, you know, and get just kind of become comfortable with the idea for themselves.

Wakil (33:33.517)
Yeah.

LiElla Kelly (33:38.145)
And then I think that will help promote conversations further with their families. And again, conversations are, that's the biggie. Yeah.

Wakil (33:41.785)
Yeah. That's what it takes. That's what we're doing. So yeah, we actually have a natural organic reduction organization here in Seattle that we went and toured. Did you go to that tour after the conference? Were you at the?

LiElla Kelly (34:00.183)
That, oh my goodness, I was just little nerd fan girl at that tour. was, when I walked in and saw Katrina, I was just like, I know who you are. 

Wakil (34:10.62)
I know.

LiElla Kelly
And I was so excited and I felt like a little nerd getting my picture taken with her. But yeah, I was, yeah, I just, I was kind of over the moon about that.

Wakil
Yeah, yeah, she is something else, Katrina. Yeah, I saw so many people doing that like Katrina. She is very cool. Yeah. So anyway, that what what I remember about that. there's another one, too, that we actually interviewed the CEO of the other one. I can remember the name of… 

LiElla Kelly (34:38.561)
return home.

Wakil (34:48.537)
Yeah, return home. Yeah, Brie. We had her come and do a podcast with us early on. And at that point, it was early and they were I think they were the first ones. And they were just, and the other one was just beginning. So, they were saying it's good that we have that because there's little competition and the prices can come down a bit. 

LiElla Kelly (34:54.521)
Exactly, yeah.

Wakil (35:14.843)
Yeah. Yeah. But also both of them emphasize the fact that even if you don't live in a state that has this in Washington, that they both, except people calling them up have had people come from other states. Right. And so this is something that you feel that you'd like to pursue, check it out. You may very well be able to, if you want, and if you're going again, it's a, unfortunately, kind of a privilege thing. You know, if you can afford to have a body moved that far and, and, but there is also some things happening now where people are trying to support with, you know, insurance and some other things that they're trying to support ways to help people with end of life costs. 

And so that's another thing that we're hoping to talk to some people about from the conference, you know, because that's just become a really big deal for a lot of people. And when you talk about made, you know, MAID medical assistance in dying or, or VSED, which is stopping eating and drinking. Again, those are things that there's only a few states that allow the maid. But you can sometimes some places will, we talked to the pharmacist in Denver who creates the has done three, four, I think maybe even 500.

LiElla Kelly (35:50.521)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil (36:13.113)
… making the concoction, you know, and he actually really takes very seriously that creating something that's easy for people to take and all this. But he said, if people can't find somebody in their area to call him up and he would figure out a way…  

LiElla Kelly (36:26.445)
Yeah.

Wakil
… for them to be a citizen of Denver, you know? So he was very, very passionate about helping people, which I love. And then of course, if you really have privilege, you can fly yourself to Stockholm where it doesn't matter what, you know, and I've heard of people doing that, you know?

LiElla Kelly (36:37.401)
Yeah. Yeah, I, I've definitely, I've listened to some things like on NPR and yeah, just some things about people, people doing that. I know in Montana, I recently was appointed to the Montana State Board of Funeral Service. And I like just, this is a development in the last couple of months. 

And I was reviewing some of the meetings from the past and I was just thrilled to hear that they were talking about alkaline hydrolysis and natural organic reduction are two things that we need to get ready for in our state. We don't have them yet, but we need to. And so I was just, I was very excited that even before somebody like me, I'm the public member came on… 

Wakil (37:26.747)
Right.
yeah.

LiElla Kelly (37:32.341)
… everybody else works in the funeral industry on that board. But yeah, I, I wasn't the one that had to bring it up. They were already on top of it and working in that direction.

Wakil (37:36.49)
Good.

LiElla Kelly (38:01.909)
And then in Montana, we have kind of a quasi, MAID is technically legal in Montana, but ours is not through legislation that it has become legal. was a court ruling. And so it's, yeah, it's a bit of a trickier situation, but yeah, we do have some of those things here, even though we're quite a rural population in general.

Wakil (38:07.353)
Yeah, great. Well, good, a really good talk, a really good conversation. Thank you so much for your time and I appreciate you so much and the work you're doing. So we will, oh did you bring a poem? Did you find a poem to bring for us?

LiElla Kelly (38:23.435)
I, yes, as a matter of fact, I did. This poem is by Becky Hemsley and it is something that I found related to some of what I've been going through in the last year. So I will try and read it without crying.

Wakil (38:49.207)
Yeah, that's hard, I know.

LiElla Kelly (38:52.922)
Yeah, just give me a second here.

Wakil (38:55.055)
Yeah, take a breath and take your time.

LiElla Kelly (39:07.157)
It says, I missed you quietly today. So quietly that no one noticed. I missed you as I climbed out of bed and as I brushed my teeth. When I waited at the light, when I waited at the lights on the drive into work and as I heard the rain outside my window, I missed you as I ordered lunch and as I kicked off my shoes when I got home, as I switched off the lights and climbed into bed for the night. I missed you without tears or noise or fanfare. But oh how I felt it. I felt it in the morning, at lunchtime, in the evening, and at night. I felt it as I woke, as I waited, as I worked. I felt it at home, on the road, in the light, in the dark, in the rain. I felt it every one of those moments, each one sitting heavier and heavier as the weight of me missing you kept growing and growing.

Yes, I missed you so quietly today, but I felt it so loudly.

Sorry.

Wakil (40:16.896)
Don't be sorry. Tears are sacred.

I appreciate that. I mean, I'm feeling the same way. Yeah, that's so, so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that and sharing your tears. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Yes, well, very deeply felt. so thank you again. And thank you for your work and all you do.