Annalouiza (00:01.742)
Greetings, friends. On today's episode, we will be talking to Tim Arsenault. Tim retired from hospice of the Florida Sun Coast, now Empath Health, in 2014, where he served for 19 years as a regional program director and a director of spiritual care. Throughout his professional life as an educator, pastor, retreat center administrator, and hospice leader, Tim both sought out and provided spiritual direction.

Wakil David Matthews (00:34.284)
Thank you, Tim, for being here. Tim, in 1987, worked with colleagues in a Florida retreat center and co-founded Audire, which is Latin for to listen, a program dedicated to the formation of spiritual directors. Audire is an inclusive training program rooted in the Christian religion, offering education and internship in the contemplative, evocative method of spiritual direction.

Audire welcomes clergy and laity, along with those who may not be religiously affiliated and all who wish to support the spiritual journeys of other seekers. Audire continues to this day, offering a hybrid model in person and online of training and supervision in the ancient yet contemporary art and skill of spiritual direction. That's actually where Annalouiza and I met, was in seminary learning about spiritual direction, becoming spiritual directors.

Annalouiza (01:25.154)
Yes. That's exactly right.

Tim Arsenault (01:27.54)
Wakil David Matthews (01:30.442)
I think that's partially why we were enthused to talk to you.

Annalouiza (01:34.456)
Yes, and welcome, Tim.

Tim Arsenault (01:36.274)
Well, thank you, and I appreciate that we have common roots.

Wakil David Matthews (01:39.476)
Yeah, exactly. Well, we like to begin by asking when you first became aware of death, just to get a little more background on you.

Tim Arsenault (01:49.316)
Death really cast a shadow on my early growing up years. When I was 13, I lost an uncle unexpectedly. And then two years later, two grandparents. And then when I was in my 20s, my parents died within nine months of each other. And my way of coping because I grew up Catholic, two blocks from the church and school and 12 years of Catholic education, I tended to spiritualize things and not so much in a good way. It was much more spiritual bypassing, I would call it. 

Wakil David Matthews (02:40.875)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tim Arsenault (02:45.778)
And because my family knew that I had a rich Catholic education, when crises related to death came along, they would look to me for support, and oftentimes I would provide the easy answers and the traditional answers. And that led me to actually seek out a vocation as Catholic clergy, which I did for 20 years.

Kubler-Ross wasn't part of my upbringing. I didn't know about stages of grief and all of that. And so all that information that came later really was so helpful in integrating the impact of death on my early life. And well, did that answer your question? I could go on, but…

Annalouiza (03:50.69)
Yeah, you did. Yeah. And and also you use a word that I would love for you to just take a few sentences and explain to our listeners because we understand Wakil and I will understand what spiritual bypassing means, but not everybody will. So just in a few words, spiritual bypassing.

Tim Arsenault (04:09.46)
Spiritual bypassing for me would be going toward the easy answers and answers that would really be intended to comfort the pain of another or comfort your own pain. Examples would be, you know, he or she is in a better place. Well, they're with God now and it doesn't really witness to the depth of hurt and suffering. And really the only way you can journey through grief is to be present to it at whatever stage it is. And so spiritual bypassing can really shortstop some of that processing.

Wakil David Matthews (05:02.987)
perfectly, but yeah.

Annalouiza (05:03.746)
That is so wonderful to hear it stated that way. So thank you.

Wakil David Matthews (05:07.083)
Yeah, exactly.

Tim Arsenault (05:10.024)
Well, I know it well because I did it.

Annalouiza (05:12.77)
Yeah. And, and you know, we, we all do it. It's, it's not something that, some people are better at avoiding than others. I think that we are taught from an early age to try to like close our eyes and squeeze our in our hands and like go through something really difficult as fast as you can. And so that spiritual bypassing is very good. You know, it's daily everybody we're doing it. Right.

Wakil David Matthews (05:13.0)
Right?
Yeah, yeah.

Tim Arsenault (05:41.076)
And that's not to diminish in any sense the spiritual comfort that deep faith brings. However, deep faith, I believe, is born of experience and born of growing into a deep faith and sometimes wandering through a desert for a while.

Wakil David Matthews (06:09.171)
Mm-hmm, right. Yeah.

Annalouiza (06:09.314)
Yeah. So I really appreciate that. And it sounds like this, formation of experiences with death cast a different light into your entire life. So could you talk about how death has impacted your life story?

Tim Arsenault (06:31.94)
Thank you. Certainly losing my parents as I did early on and I joined a Franciscan community when I was 17 and they were for me found family and provided me with an education, provided me with a supportive environment and supported the early days of grief, losing my parents. My dad was an alcoholic and I think, I find that if you scratch beneath the surface of many people in helping professions, there is some kind of alcoholism or addiction that was present in the family. 

Wakil David Matthews (07:26.303)
Yeah.

Tim Arsenault (07:29.956)
There's a wonderful song. Drew Halcombe and the Neighbors. I don't know if you're familiar with that group, but the name of the song is You Gotta Find Your People. so along the way I've been blessed to find my people. When I was 42 and director of a retreat center, a very busy retreat center, Double pneumonia came out of the blue right before the Christmas season, one of the busiest times at the retreat center. And I was forced to put down my calendar, spent 10 days in the hospital, and it was the best retreat I ever made. 

Wakil David Matthews (08:16.774)
Hahaha.

Tim Arsenault (08:27.838)
And it was truly a life-threatening situation, you know, Sister Death was kind of hovering outside the door. And so that led to my whole sort of midlife rearranging my life. So I appreciate the writings of Richard Rohr. And he points out that great love and great suffering are two portals to deeper meaning. And so I had the opportunity to rearrange my life, left the friars amicably and was offered a position in hospice care, which was really a continuation of ministry in many ways. 
Annalouiza (09:01.068)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (09:24.97)
Yeah.

Tim Arsenault (09:27.496)
And had the privilege of leading and supervising care teams who would go out into homes and nursing homes to care for people who were dying. So, the death thread, if there is such a thing, of weaves its way through my story.

Wakil David Matthews (09:45.259)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (09:51.426)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (09:51.596)
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I appreciate the Franciscan connection to Richard Rohr as a favorite of mine, as far as the people I look to for inspiration every day and just finishing his book, in fact, which is a really great book, the newest one, The Tears of Things, which has really been striking a chord in this current environment. And a lot of tears. A lot of tears are necessary and useful. you know, as you said, these are these doorways that he talks about into either suffering or joy. And, you know, I was also struck by the fact that this is something that had happened to me and seen happen over and over again. The body will take you down if you don't pay attention. Right. You know. Yeah. Yeah. So thanks for that story. Right. It is. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Tim Arsenault (10:38.334)
That's absolutely true, yeah.
Yeah, the body knows the score, isn't that the title of a book? Yeah.

Annalouiza (10:44.478)
Yeah, yeah, it does. Well, and it's all working in concert with our minds, our hearts, and the incarnation of our souls, right? So we have to give put down when it's like, it's not working anymore. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (11:03.542)
Take a break. Well, can you tell us a little bit more about your current work with Audire or whatever you're working on now? If there's other things, we'd love to hear about that as well. But tell us a little bit about what you're doing these days and what's inspiring you.

Tim Arsenault (11:22.27)
Well, I retired from hospice in 2014, but I always maintained spiritual direction practice. And upon retirement, I was able to expand that practice a bit and also continue teaching in the Adhira program. I've recently retired from teaching to again further concentrate on my practice. And the last three years, I had extraordinary experiences losing three of the directees I was working with. One was expected. I journeyed with this wonderful woman through her passages with breast cancer. But the other two were completely sudden and unexpected. One was a woman in her early 60s who was a college administrator and after she retired pursued ordination in the Anglican tradition as a deacon. Just a wonderful, articulate, bright woman who sought out spiritual direction to really integrate all the theology that she was studying and asking herself, well, how do I bring this home to my life? 

Wakil David Matthews (13:16.413)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well.

Tim Arsenault (13:17.054)
But she died unexpectedly of an aneurysm right during a bishop's council meeting, which was just extraordinary and dramatic but it was just that quick. And then I had been working with a young man in his mid thirties. I had met him when he was 24 and he came pursuing spiritual direction. Who at 24 pursues spiritual direction? My goodness, just this extraordinary bright articulate young man who was wrestling with should he pursue a career in ministry or pursue a career in professional finance, and as things evolved actually he determined that he was called to a bivocational ministry. That he would have a professional job and also pursue ministry kind of like Paul the tent maker but in a much more modern way.

Wakil David Matthews (14:09.131)
Yeah.

Tim Arsenault (14:16.093)
Anyway, this goes back eight months now. I got an unexpected call from his mother who knew me to say that he was gone. What do mean gone? He died unexpectedly in a crazy pool accident. And this young man was as close to a son that I would ever experience. And in fact, we decided not to continue our spiritual direction relationship, to put that aside and just pursue the fact that we were deeply connected to each other. 

Wakil David Matthews (15:05.258)
Wow.

Tim Arsenault (15:09.044)
And he left a wonderful wife and two beautiful children. So I'd have to say that that experience, those three experiences brought me to my knees as well, realizing that I needed spiritual direction myself, which I've always been faithful to, but really needed to process the meaning of those losses. And how do I even though I worked for hospice, I knew the stages of grief and all of that was very familiar with those passages. But when it comes to your own door, you need help.

Wakil David Matthews (15:51.241)
Yeah, absolutely.

Tim Arsenault (15:54.738)
So through spiritual direction and finding my people. I've been able to continue to integrate this. That was really the subject of the article for presence that I wrote that led to our connection that spiritual directors grieve as well.

Wakil David Matthews (16:19.133)
Absolutely. Yeah, I really appreciate that. I wonder along the line of current working stuff, could you tell us a little bit more about it, Audire, the program Audire? And then we can move on to the next thing.

Tim Arsenault (16:34.188)
So when I was working in the retreat center in Orlando, that Catholic diocese was growing by leaps and bounds. People were moving in due to Disney and a lot of the tech companies and all of that. And Catholic churches were focused on brick and mortar primarily. know, clergy had no extra time to sit one-on-one with folks. And I had been trained in the Shalem Model of Spiritual Direction in Washington DC. And so some of us were sitting around considering programming at the center. Why couldn't we bring some of that training to Orlando and central Florida and help to ease the burden of pastors 

Wakil David Matthews (17:34.004)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (17:41.963)
Beautiful. Yeah.

Tim Arsenault (18:01.94)
And help to train people to be professional listeners and not therapists, but really help folks to focus on their relationship with their God as they understand God. So we developed the program, Taking the wisdom of Shalem and bringing it to our area, using some of that curriculum, adding our own, and began the training program. Initially, it was two years. We realized that there was a need for an introduction to supervision, which was really to bring your work to peers so that the peers can help you understand your own movement of the spirit as you work with another person and how not to get in your own way.

Wakil David Matthews (18:39.594)
Haha.

Tim Arsenault (18:41.076)
So with a variety of ups and downs, the program still exists today. And we are training spiritual directors in what is called the contemplative evocative method of spiritual direction, which is simply to be present to the other person, which is not easy, putting aside all your stuff and parking it for a while to truly be present and through the method of respectful evocative questions to help the directee move more deeply into their own experience.

Wakil David Matthews (19:12.051)
Yeah.

Tim Arsenault (19:40.766)
I love the three underlying evocative questions of spiritual direction as I would identify them which are Who am I now? What have I come to believe? And what is mine to do?

Wakil David Matthews (19:48.396)
Good questions for all of us at any moment. Thank you. Thank you for that. I appreciate that. And we'll put some links to that school and maybe to the Shalem. So people can learn more about that if they're interested as well. Thank you.

Tim Arsenault (19:54.203)
Exactly. Yeah.

Annalouiza (20:12.238)
Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, you know, I really love this foundation that you have for spiritual director directors. How? And so I'm what I hear is that you use this as well when you're. Well, let me just ask you this point of clarification. Do you still work with hospice? No. Okay. 

Tim Arsenault (20:32.7)
No, I retired from the hospice

Annalouiza (20:42.184)
You retired. Okay. But still, you know, it is interesting to use these deep listening skills to sit with folks who are possibly at the late stages of being mortal, right? Like to learn to listen deeply, you know, park yourself to the side, witness and support. So, do you find that that's actually helpful?

Tim Arsenault (21:05.928)
Well, it's interesting, the current directives that I work with range in age now from mid 30s to 92.
And the people in their mid-30s who are parenting and are oftentimes part of that sandwich generation, taking care of little ones and then taking care of elders and facing the decline and death of those elders. And then at the other end of the spectrum, wonderful people in their 80s and early 90s who are processing the meaning of their lived lives and the catalog of their losses. And so I'm not so much sitting at the bedside of a dying person. However, I'm sitting with and listening to a dying person because we all are.

Annalouiza (22:24.348)
We all are. Absolutely. Yes.

Wakil David Matthews (22:25.163)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I think Annalouiza and I would agree that those skills of listening and caring and companioning people come in handy all day, every day, right? Those are, yeah, they're just to make a better sense of being with people, which is so important and needed right now.

Tim Arsenault (22:52.37)
And it's so counter-cultural, you know, with all the avenues of social media. It's really all about talking, all about talking and putting out in the universe, wondering if somebody is listening or measuring your value by the amount of likes you get.

Wakil David Matthews (23:17.739)
That's right. Yeah, exactly.

Annalouiza (23:18.478)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Arsenault (23:19.122)
Which I, you know, is we can go off on that tangent, but.

Wakil David Matthews (23:24.011)
Yeah, that's become a big issue for many people, especially our young people, but I think everybody these days. Okay, we'll see.

Annalouiza (23:35.371)
It does.

Wakil David Matthews (23:38.941)
Okay, challenges. 

Annalouiza (23:42.53)
Well, I kind of restructured that last question because the challenges was akin to working with folks who are passing or in there. But what are your challenges in working with spiritual directives?

Tim Arsenault (24:15.081)
Challenges. Sorry for pausing. I don't want to give the first answer off the top.

Annalouiza (24:20.222)
As a spiritual director should do. Not once, not twice, not three times, but.

Wakil David Matthews (24:20.325)
Yeah.

Tim Arsenault (24:30.74)
So the challenge is first of all, for me to be able to carve out space before a session and after a session. I can be tempted to fill up my day and then breeze into a session and it's not fair to the directee. I need to give myself some space prior to either jumping on a Zoom

Wakil David Matthews (24:51.562)
Yeah.

Tim Arsenault (25:05.059)
call or welcoming them at my front door. Secondly, to really make sure my schedule is open enough where I have time after the session to really ask myself evocative questions.

Wakil David Matthews (25:22.942)
Mmm.

Tim Arsenault (25:24.872)
What about the quality of my own attention? What hooked me? What was the golden thread in this session? Did I bypass or somehow offer advice when really I should be listening even before I make a suggestion?

One would be the avalanche of books and resources that are out there and really sorting through what is good and useful as opposed to what is more entertainment.

Wakil David Matthews (26:10.559)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Arsenault (26:20.02)
Another challenge would be developing evocative questions that are not judgmental, that offer an avenue to deeper reflection and making sure I'm asking questions that are truly open-ended and not with an answer implied.

Wakil David Matthews (26:51.051)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tim Arsenault (26:54.9)
Another challenge would be when someone is stuck and stuck either in pain or fear or worry. And I am not a therapist, but I'm a companion. And so to sit with them in that dark place and not rush them out of that room.

Wakil David Matthews (27:29.195)
Yeah, yeah, beautiful. I love this. This is a kind of spiritual direction 101 for anybody who's interested in getting started in this beautifully put and really beautifully beautifully

Annalouiza (27:39.796)
It really is, yeah, articulated.

Wakil David Matthews (27:54.067)
…beautiful examples. Yeah, I'm really… articulated. Thank you. Is there anything that frightened you about the end of life having been in this world for as long as you have?

Tim Arsenault (28:04.874)
I love the writing of Brian McLaren.

Wakil David Matthews (28:09.279)
Yeah.

Tim Arsenault (28:10.797)
And he raises the question, what is the opposite of faith?

Wakil David Matthews (28:22.283)
Hmm.

Tim Arsenault (28:23.788)
And for him, the answer is not doubt, but the opposite of faith is certitude.

Wakil David Matthews (28:33.097)
Mm, right. Yeah, yeah.

Tim Arsenault (28:35.156)
And so as I move on in aging, I'm becoming much more comfortable with uncertainty.

Wakil David Matthews (28:48.563)
Yeah, beautiful. Yeah.

Tim Arsenault (28:51.38)
My Christian heritage certainly offers a vision of hope for a next life. And yet, I'm not going to try and live my life in a way that I spend energy trying to earn that next life. I am trying to live a life of appreciating the here and now. And is there a next life? I'm not sure. I don't know. I hope there is. I hope there is a reunion. And there's so much mystery and mysticism around end of life and what's next. And there's a lot that we know, but boy, there is an awful lot that we don't know. And so...

Annalouiza (29:39.97)
Yes.

Tim Arsenault (30:03.038)
You asked the question, what frightens me? I once said to a person, I don't mind going, but I don't want to go messy.

Wakil David Matthews (30:13.861)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (30:14.188)
Hahaha!

Tim Arsenault (30:16.948)
And, know, given medicine these days and medical interventions and surgeries and all, the journey to death is not a straight line down. It is very much days of wellness, days of decline, days of recovery. this intervention, another recovery. And so what frightens me, I think, is pain. And working for hospice, I have a lot of hope that pain, all kinds of pain, would be managed well. 

Wakil David Matthews (31:00.851)
Yeah, yes.

Tim Arsenault (31:08.798)
Secondly, that if I should die messy, that there are good and wonderful home health aides who know what to do and treat me with dignity. I would have to say, you know, we cared for my husband's father and mother in our home. And there were wonderful home health aides came, come and honestly did some very messy things.

Wakil David Matthews (31:27.787)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (31:37.656)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Arsenault (31:38.502)
And yet did that work with love and affirmation and no sense of diminishment at all. I don't know if that answered your question, Wakil. That was a very good question.

Annalouiza (31:51.342)
What a It was, it is.

Wakil David Matthews (31:52.203)
Beautiful.
That was a very good answer, really, it really was. And I loved the way you said they deal with all kinds of pain. So, you know, not just the physical pain, but the anguish and the sadness and the loss and grief that people go through. It's true. My work in hospice, I found out as well that that's part of the work. And the chaplains and the social workers and the nurses, everybody really is there because they care, because they want to make that transition as beautiful and comfortable as it can be. And sometimes it's messy. There's no way around it. yeah. 

Annalouiza (32:28.62)
Right. And dignified, right? Like it brings dignity to the process.

Wakil David Matthews (32:38.508)
And you also made the point of agency about hoping they'll do the things you've asked them to do or that they know what you want to have happen. And we talk a lot about making sure you've written that down, making sure people know. So that's great. Thank you so much. That was a great answer. Yes, very good.

Annalouiza (32:54.262)
So in all this beautiful work that you are doing accompanying folks, how do you keep yourself resourced so that you are ready and available to do the sacred work?

Tim Arsenault (33:23.176)
I take great strength from having found my people. There is a network of like-minded folks in my community here physically and also in the wider world. I spend time in the morning in quiet and also, I try to keep my ear to the ground, picking up on books and resources. Richard Rohr, Brian McLaren, Thomas Merton.

Wakil David Matthews (34:15.743)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Arsenault (34:28.638)
There are so many others and my mind is swirling at the moment, but certainly keeping my nose to the grindstone in terms of picking up resources like that.

Annalouiza (34:39.694)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (34:39.999)
Yeah, continuing education, right? Yeah.

Tim Arsenault (34:44.616)
Yes, Carrie Newcomer, do know her music? You can do this hard thing. And in fact, she's developed a partnership now with Parker Palmer. Let your life speak. And it was a tremendous resource in terms of my own midlife transitioning. And also learning to know about me and my preferences. When I learned of the Myers-Briggs, it was like, Oh my goodness, you can put into words exactly who I am. And so learning more deeply who I am and of course the Enneagram has been helpful as well. So all those resources kind of help me to keep my tools sharp.

Wakil David Matthews (35:58.204)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Well put. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, I'll just say that going back through all of our podcasts, there's so many resources that we've listed. We probably want to make a, well, we have a resource document that we send to people when they subscribe, but that, you know, there's so many, like you said, there's so many good resources out there and just we've been so blessed and we're being blessed again right now.

Annalouiza (36:00.494)
Yeah we are!

Wakil David Matthews (36:27.915)
Is there anything you wish we had asked you that we didn't get to?

Tim Arsenault (36:49.908)
I am a gay man in a long-term relationship and part of the process of coming out to myself, into my family, and then living into my identity has edges of grief to it, certainly.

Wakil David Matthews (37:14.347)
Sure. Yeah.

Tim Arsenault (37:19.06)
It is disturbing that the issue of sexual identity and gender have become so divisive in religious circles. 

Wakil David Matthews (37:36.981)
Yeah, yes.

Tim Arsenault (37:50.323)
You know, the Methodist tradition has just gone through a period of disaffiliations and
So, I know you didn't ask me about that, but that's certainly an issue that is sort of underneath the surface of who I am. More than, it's not under the surface, it's right there. You know, I don't live a hidden life in that regard. And there are places in this country that are hostile to 

Annalouiza (38:08.13)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (38:19.463)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Arsenault (38:22.708)
… my chosen, lifestyle and you know we're together for 30 going on 31 years which is miraculous you know for straight marriages and the odds were against us there's 18 years difference between us he comes from a baptist background

Wakil David Matthews (38:29.993)
Wow, beautiful. It is.

Annalouiza (38:33.166)
Yes it is.

Wakil David Matthews (38:38.63)
Exactly.

Tim Arsenault (38:51.344)
I come from a Catholic background and we somehow have managed to forge a life together in spite of the odds. So, these dating apps and all of that imply that you could find the perfect one. Well, sorry to say, imperfection is a part of the whole picture.

Wakil David Matthews (39:15.115)
That's right. So well put. Yeah. And I mean, the reason we asked that question is because of this kind of a treasures and jewels that we get to hear about. So I really appreciate you sharing that. And so important. And I think we could do all another podcast simply just about what is, you know, what life is like as a different identity than accepted ones because

Tim Arsenault (39:43.166)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (39:43.52)
Right now, so many of those folks are friends and siblings, and those groups are under threat more than they've ever been. And it's just, very painful to watch. It's another grief level, another grief area of grief for many of us, I think. 

Annalouiza (40:00.918)
Yeah. Well, and I appreciate that you have lived into your identity and found joy and beauty in a relationship. And to me, just speaks to when we are authentic in showing up how we are who we are, blessings come our way. And just the same way, you know, I say this quite a few times. I show up to dinner parties talking about death and dying and don't get asked back. And so, so, you know, like.

Tim Arsenault (40:35.944)
Yeah. You're the turd in the punch bowl.

Annalouiza (40:40.95)
I'm still, yeah, that's essentially what it is. But, you know, I'm still hoping that, you know, with more people being open to being death positive and having hard conversations about who we are, how we're living, how we're dying, you know, more of us can come together and just be chosen community for each other.

Tim Arsenault (41:02.644)
Thank you for your good work. Everything in this world has an expiration date.

Wakil David Matthews (41:02.859)
Yeah, Yeah.

Annalouiza (41:11.235)
Yeah.

Tim Arsenault (41:12.57)
And you're your listeners savor the right now.

Wakil David Matthews (41:19.915)
Yeah, well said, perfectly said. Well, let's go ahead and end with the wonderful poem you gave us by Jan Richardson. Do you want to read it yourself or would you like us to do so?

Annalouiza (41:28.142)
Our poem. Yay.

Tim Arsenault (41:35.764)
I can read it. don't know if you know Jan. She is a wonderful writer and retreat leader. She lost her husband and it deeply impacted certainly her life and she would be an amazing guest by the way.

Wakil David Matthews (42:00.148)
All right, yeah, if you know her personally, please, please introduce us.

Tim Arsenault (42:07.582)
So this is called Blessing for the Broken-Hearted.

Let us agree for now that we will not say the breaking makes us stronger or that it is better to have this pain without this love. Let us promise we will not tell ourselves time will heal the wound when every day our waking opens it anew. Perhaps for now it can be enough to simply marvel at the mystery of how a heart so broken can go on beating as if it were made for precisely this. As if it knows the only cure for love is more of it. As if it sees the heart's sole remedy for breaking is to love still. As if it trusts that its own persistent pulse is the rhythm of a blessing we cannot begin to fathom

Wakil David Matthews (43:19.012)
Ohh thank you.

Annalouiza (43:21.612)
Yes, thank you so much.

Wakil David Matthews (43:22.571)
Yeah, the heart's sole remedy for breaking is to love still. That's such a beautiful poem. Thank you. Yeah, do hope we can... Yes, absolutely. The tears of things, right? Yeah, I've talking, I've been experiencing and talking and realizing a lot about the sacredness of crying and tears and somebody called it the baptism that we can experience.

Annalouiza (43:26.466)
Yeah. I know, can I cry?

Wakil David Matthews (43:52.245)
Yeah, definitely. Tears are important. Thank you. We always thank anybody who cries on our podcast. Yeah, I'm definitely feeling that too. So thank you again, Tim. It's really been an amazing and excellent conversation. And thank you for your work and for your continued presence and for being there and being who you are. We really just appreciate you.

Annalouiza (44:19.692)
Yes, we do. Thank you so much.

Tim Arsenault (44:22.644)
Well, it was an honor to really be interviewed and all that anxiety evaporated with your gentleness and respectfulness. So thank you.

Annalouiza (44:32.886)
Yes, thank you so much.