Wakil David Matthews (00:00)
Welcome friends. Today we are delighted to spend some time with you reflecting on our third season. That means we've had over 60 episodes so far and we just learned that we've had over 7,500 downloads. Isn't that cool? Yeah. Thank you all so much for your support. That's so great. And this last season we were inspired by artists, authors, public speakers and quite a few death doulas.

Annalouiza (00:13)
Woo! Woo!

Wakil David Matthews (00:28)
We met people working with the incarcerated, the LGBTQ community, the BIPOC culture, and even with people who are communicating with those who have passed and much more.

Annalouiza (00:39)
Yes. What a fun season we had here with all of our guests who showed up. they're truly sharing their gifts with us. And one such person, an artist we got to know, is Dr. Tamara McIntyre. She shared with us the new, old kind of technology, artistic blending, reimagining how a death practice would come to be by making hand-woven willow coffins.

Wakil David Matthews (01:04)
That was cool.

Annalouiza (01:05)
That was really fun. Yeah. Like

I wanted to be a part of that.

Wakil David Matthews (01:09)
Yeah, I want one.

Annalouiza (01:11)
Okay We invited authors like miss Rusty Rossman an octogenarian who just published her first book and She was so inspired to write a book called Two Envelopes where she talks about

people who need to leave an envelope for the just in case I die and somebody needs to know my wishes and the other one can go out to all of the other folks who really need to know. But she was very committed to this and was very excited to share this information with us through her book.

Wakil David Matthews (01:37)
Yeah.

Yeah, I think the second one also had like love letters. I love that. Love letters to your family. That was such a great idea.

Annalouiza (01:45)
⁓ yeah.

So sweet, such a sweet woman. We also had Mr. Rich Nisbet, who wrote a book called Helping Children and Adults Find Meaning in Death, which is his way of helping kids understand the cycle of life through the loss of a loved one, a family member, and how community and the continuity of life continues in spite of a death.

Wakil David Matthews (01:50)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (02:10)
We also invited Mr. Michael Erard, who I absolutely enjoyed so much, who wrote a book called Last Words and First Words and how they relate, which was really interesting in his research into focusing on the first words of children and babies and the last words of the dying. was, it was one of those moments when I realized like death and dying.

birth and death, all of this, like it's just so interconnected and so woven together.

Wakil David Matthews (02:41)
Yeah, beautiful cycle. I liked what he said about there being a, what do you call it? A communication window, I think that's what he called it, something like that, where it grows when you're a baby, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and different, like everything from gestures to sounds. And then it starts shrinking when you're dying. And it was very fascinating to compare the two. I love that.

Annalouiza (02:52)
Thank you.

It was, and

one of the really, and I still think about this all the time, actually, in this whole notion that communication, we have this kind of ableist or linguist perception of how people are talking and communicating. When in fact, sometimes people say, well, you know, my uncle stopped speaking. And in fact, people continue to reach out to us through their, the minimal gestures or just.

Wakil David Matthews (03:06)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (03:27)
you know, feeling into what it seems like to be in that space with this person. I loved his work and I hope more people get to understand how communication happens on so many different levels.

Wakil David Matthews (03:33)
Yeah.

Right? Yeah, we're going to talk about more of that in a minute here because we have yet another level. But we also spoke to Doulas, many, many death Doulas actually. ⁓ We had one Neshia Alaovae who is Black and Samoan, a disabled mama, poet and death worker. She really cares about connecting cultural wisdom and ancestral resilience and BIPOC joy to empower how we live and die.

Annalouiza (03:44)
you

Last.

Wakil David Matthews (04:05)
She wrote or she founded an organization called A Thoughtful Death, which was a really amazing person, a really amazing idea. And I love what she's doing. We also published one called What is a Death Doula? We brought in four different doulas to talk to us about why they became death doulas and personal stories, like how were they inspired and what was their specialties? Each of them had a different kind of approach, which also was pretty fascinating.

We had one premium episode in case you for our subscribers who are paid subscribers called How to Become a Death Doula. And that's actually a video episode like this one. And finally we met, well actually we met others, we met Liella Kelly who founded an organization called Leaving Well, which is really for serving individuals and families want to seek or navigating end of life transitions with grace and dignity and peace.

Annalouiza (04:44)
you're

Wakil David Matthews (04:57)
All of these Doulas were just such amazing, lovely people. We really were honored to spend time with them. And I really hope that more people understand that there are such a thing as Death Doulas and what their work is. It's so important to know and so useful and part of that work at the end of life. Yeah.

Annalouiza (05:12)
It is.

It is. And, you know, just one last thought with doulas. And I hope that folks will join our paid subscriber list there, because it really is interesting to see what each of these doulas bring to the process at the end of life, how they support families and the folks who are dying. And it's not a one size fits all. You find some of them who are coming from the nursing sector, others who are coming from, you know, poetry or

or birth doulas, but they're all showing up with these very unique gifts. So I hope that all of you listening will just kind of live into their mystery and go listen to some of these because they are delightful humans.

Wakil David Matthews (05:51)
Yeah,

yeah, exactly.

Annalouiza (05:55)
Well, and so after the death doula work, we have more death doulas doing more interesting parts of their training and their cycles of holiness. was, there's quite a few of our guests who are called to serve those who are in their grief cycles. Just because we talk about death and dying end of life, the dying process continues even after our loved one has passed. Some of those folks are needing support. So

Wakil David Matthews (06:16)
Yeah.

Absolutely.

Annalouiza (06:20)
A few of our doulas have begun little programs or little classes or little communities to continue to support those who are struggling through their grief. Karen Carlesi and Phoenix have started a group for people who have lost children, whether through death, estrangement, incarceration, or illness. And what I absolutely adored about these two women and the work that they're doing is that anyone who has lost a child, be it a child at

six months, six years, or 60 years. They're all children. They're still our babies. And they will hold that grief and help us through that in the capacity that they can find. So I adore that.

Wakil David Matthews (06:51)
Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, I was just noting too that there's so many people that I've met that I've told about this class. know, lot of people have lost children. It's kind of amazing and they're so pleased to hear that there's a way, a place where they can go and join a community of people that understand, who have gone through it and are able to work together with these brilliant

Annalouiza (07:22)
Yes.

Wakil David Matthews (07:22)
Karen

and Phoenix who really know the world that they're working with.

Annalouiza (07:26)
We do.

And I love that, Wakil that you have met people who are surprised that there's a place for them. you know, and it just occurred to me, too, that one of the the stories that we hear on that podcast was they had their first group and they had invited people who had lost children. And there was a a variety of people. But they also found that there were like miscarriage and abortions and all.

Wakil David Matthews (07:44)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (07:54)
of those were similar griefs. were not going to be, you know, there wasn't like a pecking order of whose child mattered more or had deeper grief. They were all children who had passed. And that is right there for me. It's revolutionary and you know, so important for people.

Wakil David Matthews (07:56)
Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah,

Huge, very profound,

Annalouiza (08:15)
It is. So, you know, other people are starting to think about grief and grief cycles and how to metabolize what's going on in your, in your soul. And we interviewed Mirabai Starr who is committed to serving those who are deep in their grief cycles. She has also lost a child. She has experienced deaths in different. Like levels and varieties. She comes with a lot of experience in this, in this realm.

And she and a young woman named Willow Brook co-created the Wild Hearts Space Community. Here they gather with others who are metabolizing their own grief with spiritual support. I think it's monthly check-ins, online classes. And actually, I think they actually have met in situ some places too. So.

Wakil David Matthews (08:56)
Yeah. Yeah.

yeah, Actually, Mirabai is a very good friend of mine who's been writing, who writes many, books on spirituality, mysticism, and beautiful things. one of her, as you said, in her autobiography, she speaks to having lost her 14-year-old daughter to a car accident. And it's just so profound. so I think that's partially what

inspired her to create this thing and Willow is another friend and they just met and started talking about how the idea of phases of grief were okay and are well known but that there are actually a lot more like they call thresholds that we go through when we're going through death and dying and grief and loss and there were like 16 of them I think that they go through.

All of them are really, really beautiful and they spend time talking about the different places that you go. And again, as you said, they created this huge community of people that are all able to communicate about those different levels and those different thresholds.

Annalouiza (10:03)
And just like I just pointed out with Carl, Karen and Phoenix about having the possibility of the grief of children be so wide, like they cast a wide net. will say that Mirabai also talked about casting a wide net for the different griefs that people have experienced. We often think of grief as just being allowed for people who have lost a human being or, you know, now we're like stretching out into pets, but in fact, there are griefs around the loss of dreams.

Wakil David Matthews (10:13)
Yeah.

Right.

Okay.

Annalouiza (10:32)
around the loss of agency, around the loss of communities, of a tree. Oftentimes we diminish those who are passing through this grief cycle and think, well, it's not as hard as or as heavy as an actual death of a human. in fact, different people, all of us have different ways of dealing with our grief and we are sensitive to different losses. So I appreciate that the

Wakil David Matthews (10:37)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (10:59)
Wild Heart Space community is also all encompassing and supportive of all kinds of little deaths.

Wakil David Matthews (11:04)
Yeah, yeah,

yeah. In fact, one of our most fun episodes in the next season is talking about that specifically, actually, for, it's one of our longest episodes ever, talking about all the different ways of loss and how we deal with loss. So definitely stay tuned for those.

Annalouiza (11:19)
Yes.

Yes. that was such a good one. It was so fun. And we have Marci Donaldson, who she lovingly addresses the gaps that we have in caring for those at the end of life. And she has really made an effort to to have innovative solutions for those who want medical aid in dying, but are not in a state that offers this service. She founded a hopeful house.

Wakil David Matthews (11:23)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (11:45)
And this is a service for families who need to travel to, I think, what state was it? Was it Oregon? To Oregon, and so that they can have their family member have a positive medical aid in dying event. I appreciate it.

Wakil David Matthews (11:51)
I think it was Oregon, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. She was also

looking, sorry, she was also looking at Airbnbs basically collecting a group of places where people could do that in her area. Just really cool to be done everywhere.

Annalouiza (12:12)
I love how she talks about finding it like meeting the needs of the gaps because you know, as folks go through any kind of end of life scenario, they will come onto their, mean, every death is very unique. They will always find like something that's kind of hinders or hampers their ability to have the death that they want possibly. But I love that she has heard this and is stepping in to support this need.

Wakil David Matthews (12:17)
Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah,

So many cool guests. Several of them we met brought really kind of a new perspective that we hadn't thought of in the past to end of life care and grief loss. We met Pamela Belyea, who has created a Griever's Library, like one of these little community libraries that you see around now. But this one is specifically to grief.

Annalouiza (12:41)
Yes.

Abraham.

Wakil David Matthews (13:01)
She considered this kind of a passion project. When her son died, she found herself really wishing there was more literature, more things out there where she could find access to resources more about specifically what she was going through. And so she thought, why isn't there more access to this? You went to the library and still didn't find that much. So she created these little libraries. And my wife ran and found one in our little suburban neighborhood here.

one day and told me about it and I called Pamela and we had her come and talk about this incredible idea of hers. She's put about, I think, nine of them up in the Seattle area now. And she's dealt with some crazy, you know, people burning them and tearing them up and stealing the books and that kind of stuff. But she's found ways around that. Like one of them downtown, she ended up putting inside of a cafeteria, which is a great idea. So we managed, my wife and I managed the one near us.

And there's at least a dozen books a week that are taken from that library. just, it just, you obviously there's a need out there for this. And so we really appreciate that, that project she put together. She's an amazing person in many ways. ⁓

Annalouiza (14:10)
Yeah. what I loved about

that too is how she manages to create a death book list for all kinds of deaths, like veterans who have passed or children or pets or, you know, people going through terminal illnesses, or I think I remember like even through Alzheimer's. So she's not just focused on death as a overall umbrella, but she's actually going out and researching the books that can help any number of folks struggling through an end of life. And

Wakil David Matthews (14:18)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (14:39)
What a heart to go and look for those

unique experiences for people to just kind of casually find them. She's like, they'll find people will find what they need in these labor.

Wakil David Matthews (14:49)
Yep, exactly.

Yeah, she, she goes out and finds all the used books and she now she's actually getting grants and then she'll sit write to the publishers and tell them what they're doing and they'll send her 100 books, you know, it's, it's way cool what she's doing. And she does, like you said, she labels them, she puts a little colored dots on them. It was a index on the side of the box on the side of the library says this is about children. This is about or for children.

and etc. So it's really beautifully done and just an incredible power. She's a power to be reckoned with. ⁓ We met Fran Parker as well and she really had told it was kind of, know, it one of those episodes where you go, whoa, is that possible? And you have to kind of, you know, suspend your disbelief or suspend your, you know, scientific

Annalouiza (15:27)
and see you on the

Wakil David Matthews (15:43)
you know, objectivity or something and just be willing. Yeah, yeah. And be willing to accept that we don't know, we live in mystery and that things that we don't know about can really happen because she had specific, she wrote it all down and she's a, she's a PhD author, you know, and she and her husband both, they kept track of the telepathic communications that they had with her deceased daughter and her mother.

Annalouiza (15:44)
your quantifiable.

Wakil David Matthews (16:11)
And it was profound what she, the kind of connections they had. And the whole family was getting this. And in fact, her husband being a scientist was kind of hesitant and cynical about the whole thing until suddenly he said, my God, they're talking to me now. So really loved that episode. was kind of like a step over the line in a way. And yet we ended up, both of us feeling like, at least I'll just say for myself, feeling like, what do we know? We know there's more going on.

Annalouiza (16:26)
It was fun.

Wakil David Matthews (16:35)
than meets the eye. have very limited senses. So there's so much more outside of our stories that we believe. ⁓ Russell Young, in an episode, highlighted what he called a wind phone. And he installed it in his local church property. And it was just sort of as a symbolic gesture. It's basically a telephone booth. In old fashion, some of us may not remember what a telephone booth looks like. But he put it.

Annalouiza (16:59)
I'm sorry.

Wakil David Matthews (17:01)
Telephone booth with a phone in there that people can go in and pick up and just have a conversation with their loved ones that have passed I was such a sweet idea. Yeah And then we had a Gail Rubin come she talked about how she speaks to audiences she's a public speaker she goes out and talks to audiences and she uses film clips and humor to just Talk about all the different things around the end of life. She also runs a

yearly festival in New Mexico called Before I Die, which I highly recommend for any of you working in this or thinking about this.

Annalouiza (17:35)
Yes, she was such a delightful human being. I loved that she brought humor to a very seemingly dark topic. But for some people, they were like, that's too morbid or whatever. she brought life and joy and just a je ne sais quoi to our topics.

Wakil David Matthews (17:44)
Right?

Yeah.

Right, right.

And I think it's in our next season where we talk to somebody who's texting with his friend who died. So it might be that. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, this is really cool that people are having these kind of communications.

Annalouiza (18:04)
That's right.

Yes. So I also wanted to point out that we met some folks who brought amazingly actually brought more information into my, my purview. I thought I knew a lot about death and dying and then I continued to learn. So I really appreciate these folks who brought it to my attention that I, have so much information at our disposal.

Wakil David Matthews (18:20)
All right.

Annalouiza (18:31)
about the services that are rendered to those who are dying or to their families or to the Grief Work. But the big assumption is that they will be white, they will be middle class, they will probably choose between a burial or cremation, and that they will be able to afford a proper funeral care service after the person has passed. And I really appreciate that some of our guests brought this new awareness of the need to look beyond this typical mindset.

Wakil David Matthews (18:47)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (18:57)
and say

that there are people from all traditions, from all cultural needs, and they too have different dreams of how they want their bodies to be cared for after it has passed. We interviewed Tiana Dargent who was so insightful with her compassionate end of life community care, highlighting the importance of inclusive and compassionate end of life care for the 2SLGBN. Excuse me, let me start that again.

2 SLGBTQIA plus community. I am still that was another one that continues to kind of bubble up into my mind as we talk to or especially during filming this during pride month. And, you know, I think about all the families who have disowned their kiddos who have come out as themselves. And sometimes these families are not there to support.

Wakil David Matthews (19:42)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (19:47)
that person at the end of life. Or if you go into a very corporate setting, maybe a trans person will not be given the ability to be dressed as they want to be dressed. There will be lot of assumptions based on their gender. And I appreciate Tiana's insightfulness into this, because we do need to share that there is a high need for supporting all of our brothers and sisters.

Wakil David Matthews (19:49)
Yeah.

All right.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

And making sure that they have expressed their needs and have someone that will fulfill their needs and give them the agency that they need. We learned the first part of that, 2S is two spirit, which is an indigenous word for the people who are non-binary, basically. And I love that that's added to the LGBTQIA acronym. Yeah.

Annalouiza (20:20)
Absolutely.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely.

We also had a time with Joelle the grave woman and she actually has a YouTube channel and posted a lot of her videos and offers culturally sensitive training for funeral directors. She emphasizes the need for cultural competency and death care and reflects on the spiritual aspects of her role while also discussing the fears and uncertainties surrounding death.

Wakil David Matthews (20:43)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (21:00)
Wakil and I both heard her story at one of the conferences that we attended. We heard her talk about a funeral director who thought that cutting off the dreadlocks of a deceased person was warranted. And Joelle saw that was about to happen and stepped in and was like, that's not OK. That's not appropriate. And she came to realize that a lot of people actually don't understand what it means. The idea of dressing somebody and making them look good is different for people.

And those dreadlocks mean a lot more than just a hairstyle. It is actually a spiritual and a deeply cultural practice. So she is an advocate for learning what is culturally available and expected for families outside the typical paradigm.

Wakil David Matthews (21:35)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that story really moved me. And that actually what was really especially profound about that was that was when she very first began working as a funeral director when she was very young. She had just graduated. She just started. And yet she walked into this room where body was being prepared and had the compassion and courage to stay to this more senior person. That's not the right thing to do. Stop, you know, which I love that. I love that she's continuing to.

teach all of us around that, cultural expectations.

Annalouiza (22:17)
We also had Deborah Grassman who has serving 10,000 veterans at the end of life. And she actually said she served 10,000 veterans. Like, when we asked her, she's like, yeah, it's probably been more than 10,000. And she's reflecting on her experience in working with veterans. And I remember I think she's from Florida. And she also talked about how the impact of natural disasters comes into play with her work.

Wakil David Matthews (22:28)
Yeah, or more. ⁓

haha

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (22:46)
and finished off with the importance of grace in our lives. she, yeah, she was a delightful human as well. All of them, every single one. And we had Laura Musselman who spoke about her training caregivers at the Humane Prison Hospice Project. She discusses the complexities of self-care in high-stress environments like prisons, and the need to support those who are stepping in to meet the needs of our incarcerated brothers and sisters.

Wakil David Matthews (22:53)
Yeah, all of them.

Yeah, that was great. Yeah.

Annalouiza (23:14)
What an amazing human being who, again,

like, you know, I think I know it all, but I forget that there are pockets of living that I don't come into contact with

Wakil David Matthews (23:24)
I love that she was training the incarcerated people to support each other and to, you know, to basically be death doulas for the, for the community in the jails. one episode that we hope we'll get to have next time, sometime soon is with a lifer in prison talking about the loss and grief around losing your freedom.

Annalouiza (23:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Wakil David Matthews (23:45)
So this is really profound to think about. As you said, this community that we tend to kind of put out of our minds, but is a growing large community of human beings that deserve their agency, deserve their integrity ⁓ and our attention.

Annalouiza (23:56)
Right.

Our thoughts and prayers. Yes.

So we have this assumption, again, burials or cremations. And here's Bob Reagan, the CEO of the Natural Funeral, who shared about these new, and I'm going to say old technologies, and the natural body disposition.

Wakil David Matthews (24:09)
Great.

Right.

Annalouiza (24:22)
He is committed to teaching people about aquamation and teramation. And aquamation is when they put your body in a coffin with water and these, well, actually these fluids, this little special fluid that will decompose you in about three hours. And families like to take this liquid after it's even decomposed and spread it in their gardens or in whatever, know, patches of world that they would like to send you off to.

And the other one is taramation, which are these coffins that they have with oxygen going in and out. And they place your body on it with some sawdust and some other just kind of natural, ⁓ yeah, anything ⁓ earthy. And within three months, you are also decomposed. And I love that it's old technology in that we used to just bury people straight into the ground and their bodies would decompose.

Wakil David Matthews (25:02)
Alfalfa, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (25:17)
their nutrients would feed another tree, some more worms and bugs and animals and the plants that grow. Like it would be a part of our life cycle, the continuation of ourselves into the world. And here's this new old technology that allows people to remain true to themselves and give back to the earth with the least amount of environmental damage possible.

Wakil David Matthews (25:29)
Yeah.

Alright.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (25:42)
We're

learning that cremations are extremely toxic for our earth, not only in the amount of resources it uses to cremate you, but possibly the cremains might be a little toxic too. So this is just another new and old way to bring about our giving back to our mother earth.

Wakil David Matthews (25:56)
Yeah, they are.

Right.

Yeah, that was really good. Terravation, thought it was sort of what we visited the terramation places in Seattle area and they are basically, you know, it's a big compost bin. You know, it's like, you know, it's specifically just like you would compost things in your garden, you know, compost barrel and they they put the right things in it. They keep it at the right moisture and the right air and and they turn it as needed. And then, of course, was anything, aquamation, terramation, cremation, the bones don't.

Annalouiza (26:17)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (26:33)
don't decompose as, and so they grind those up and put them in. They said that the aquamation remains are much more like a white flower and are not toxic to the environment where cremation remains. don't want to put them in a little pond. could kill every fish. You know, they're very, very toxic. So anyway, I love that there are those opportunities to really think. And of course, green burial is now starting to be something too. One of our very first.

episodes and episode in season one was talking to somebody who works in Hawaii at a natural funeral home and Bodhi Be and he really is advocates for just putting you in a shroud and putting you in the dirt, you know, so that's yeah, like you said, that's old technology, right?

Annalouiza (27:09)
So, that's all. Yeah, that's the simplest part. Yes.

It's all technology and actually going back to terramation, have visited the, the warehouse where they keep the terramation coffins and they're not over here. We don't do the composting. We don't turn it. It's all just in a box and it's a room. And, I think there's one Friday a month where the people whose loved one is actually decomposing will show up, pull up a chair and just sit and hold space with their loved one. And.

Wakil David Matthews (27:28)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (27:41)
I really appreciate that. It feels like you have so much more time to integrate the loss and still communicate somehow with your loved one. And at the end of three months, yeah, there are bones left. They do have it become powdered and made through the cremains. But they'll offer you buckets, of soil, essentially, of compost.

Wakil David Matthews (28:02)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (28:06)
And I know that they work with the, an orchard here in Colorado, or they have in the past, I'm not a hundred percent that they're doing it still, but orchards and you know, families can take this and put it in their garden, but you can literally compost your loved one.

Wakil David Matthews (28:21)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. In Seattle, in the Northwest here, we have a big forest down in the Southwest part of the state that they are specifically set up. They're reclaiming this forest. And part of that is that anybody who wants to can donate the remains from either terramation or aquamation to be put into the forest. Basically, when you're done, you go down with a pickup and they'll fill your pickup up.

with a big bunch of dirt that you can use any way you want, or they'll put it in little bags or buckets, like you said. So I love that too. And I think one of the things that I've noticed about these organizations, does seem like they're much more, maybe just because of the way they're working, they seem to be much more in tune with the sacredness of the body and the end of life and inviting people to be there. They invite them to be there when they put them into the...

In ours anyway, they put them into the little container and they can be there with them when they slide it up into the into the warehouse area. Yeah, so and they also have a weekly thing where people can just come and sit have a glass of tea, you know glass of wine or cup of tea and and Yeah, I love that

Annalouiza (29:25)
Yes. And it's like

slow food. that started like 20 years ago where we do was like, Oh, we need to slow down. You need to slow down and eat a hundred percent. Now we're doing like slow, you know, reclaiming to the earth, right? Like it's just, it's not like a quick embalming, put you in a concrete box and then like stuffing the earth and in three days you're to be gone. Like that's it. This is like the slow, the slow funeral mode.

Wakil David Matthews (29:31)
Yeah.

Yeah, right. It disappeared.

Yeah,

really caring for you, caring for that. As we, you know, people who work like all of us who have worked in this end of life world and funerals and such hospice, you know, that's one of the most sacred moments I've ever been involved in. And I'm sure it's true for Annalouiza and others is that moment when someone switches, changes over, moves over, leaves her body behind.

Annalouiza (29:55)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (30:14)
It's just an amazing thing. so to worship that or to acknowledge the sacredness of that is just so wonderful and important. yeah, wow, what a great, it was amazing, wasn't it? And the next one's coming up and it's looking really good. You can listen to any of these episodes. I hope you will. Links to all of the.

Annalouiza (30:19)
you

Well, wow, what an amazing season.

Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (30:33)
Things we've talked about are in the podcast notes so you can find out more about them, find out about the books and the work that they're doing in the organizations, the seminars and the meetings that they have. Spread the word, of course, with your friends and loved ones. And of course, always let us know if you've got a story or someone you know has a story that they'd like to share. We're always looking for new and exciting and unique ideas. And yeah, I think we also have just published our first newsletter.

Annalouiza (30:54)
Yes. Yes.

Wakil David Matthews (30:59)
in the beginning of June. And so anybody who, if you didn't get that, be sure and let us know. We'll make sure you're on our mailing list. We're going to start using Substack for that. And it did come through Substack and we'll use Substack for our mailings, et cetera, in the future in a good way to kind of keep up with what we're doing. And every time we do a new podcast, you'll able to find it there as well. So of course, you know, the newsletter has kind of a conversation like we just had about past and future podcasts and also

some events and resources that are coming and most of those all of those will be online that anybody can attend and of course we always have poetry. So really thank you so much for listening today and be in touch. Adios.

Annalouiza (31:35)
Yes.

Come back, adios.