Wakil David Matthews (00:05.815)
Welcome everyone. We're really, really happy to have all of you here and especially our wonderful guest today, Christine Gautreaux. She's an MSW and she also holds a bachelor's and master's degree in social work. And she is a professional speaker, a coach, an author and an entrepreneur. I was referred to her by my wife who went to an event with her,

Annalouiza (00:33.518)
Interplay.

Wakil David Matthews (00:34.915)
Interplay, an interplay, yeah, an interplay event. So she also does that. She is the co-author of Stillpoint, a caregiver's playbook to find ease and to take a deep breath and reclaim joy and also Women Connected in Wisdom Stories and resources rooted in the Eight Dimensions of Wellness, volumes one and two. She believes in the power of body wisdom and somatic play to help heal trauma and live our best lives.

Annalouiza (01:03.406)
Christine is dedicated to the pursuit of play, joy, art, and social justice. Christine's superpowers include connecting people, helping folks manifest their dreams, standing up against injustice, and using art to make a difference in the world. Christine coaches professional caregivers, activists, and artists to maintain a balance in their self-care.

Christine is the co-host of the Women Connected in Wisdom podcast and the co-founder of the Women Connected in Wisdom community. She is currently serving as the integrity and innovation coordinator of Interplay that Wakil's wife has shared with us. So welcome Christine.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (01:44.98)
Thank you so much! I love that! Mine too! Mine too.

Wakil David Matthews (01:45.252)
That's one of her favorite things to do. One of my wife's favorite things. Yeah. Well, we're really glad to have you. Thank you again for making it. And we always like to begin by learning more about our guests by asking the question, when did you first become aware of death?

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (02:06.644)
I was thinking about this after listening to some episodes of y'all's podcast and I grew up in a small farm in Texas. you know being connected to the earth and cycles of life probably very early in my life about animals and things like that. But when I think about people what I think about is I lost my maternal grandparents when I was 14. And my grandfather, Mahoney, was an Irish immigrant. He was first generation Irish immigrant and he had Alzheimer's before they called it Alzheimer's. They were still, it was right at the time that they were learning and studying and diagnosing and it was a long, slow journey for our family. And he passed away when I was 14. And that was like the first major person in my life.

Annalouiza (02:47.854)
Hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (03:04.538)
And then about seven months later, I was six, seven months later, my grandmother, his wife, dropped dead from a brain aneurysm. 

Wakil David Matthews (03:14.959)
Wow.

Annalouiza (03:21.72)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (03:34.234)
And it was heartbreaking. You know, the first one, we were well prepared, right? It was a long, we were talking about it, we were supporting. But at the time, my grandmother, well, first of all, she was just incredible. My daughter, who is graduating from college next week, she was talking about our family history and I was like, I wish you had known her because she worked in World War II. She was one of the women that came forward and took a job and she raised five kids. But what she wouldn't do is accept help when my grandfather was going through Alzheimer's. And back then, there weren't good facilities. 

Annalouiza (03:51.054)
Mmm.

Wakil David Matthews (03:53.434)
Mm.

Annalouiza (03:57.069)
Right.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (04:03.686)
She refused to put him in a home because... And so she was working full-time as an accountant.or bookkeeper, and she was taking care of him for two years. And even though she had family very close by, she was not asking for help. 

Annalouiza (04:06.764)
Wow.

Wakil David Matthews (04:18.085)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (04:23.027)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm.
Christine Gautreaux, MSW (04:33.498)
I remember one time she asked for help when he had fallen and couldn't get up. And that's what they think contributed to her early death is because of stress of caregiving. So those two deaths within such a short time really made an impact on my life.

And the other random piece of that whole thing was when my grandmother died, my aunt Joan, who was my person, and I lost her recently, she was backpacking across Europe. She was in Ireland. And she, it was back when, well, I mean, she was just a trailblazer to start with, but she's backpacking by herself in Europe. 

And she would meet somebody and go like, there was not a set itinerary. There was not a, and so we had her destination of, she had met these folks in the hostel she was in and where she was headed. 

Annalouiza (05:05.483)
Love it.

Wakil David Matthews (05:15.076)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (05:30.866)
And we couldn't get a hold of her for two or three days. And so it was a part of that dying process because my grandmother was on life support and they weren't going to release her until they reached, it was a whole part of the business of dying, especially in America. And so that really, think I was 14 when that happened. And it just really made an impression on me and getting your affairs in order, like the whole thing. And really the book when, in the introduction, when you talked about Stillpoint, the playbook for caregivers, that's my why for being a co-author on that book is because I knew like being a caregiver can take you out.

Wakil David Matthews (05:32.803)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (05:40.12)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (05:55.557)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (06:00.624)
if you're not taking care of yourself at the same time.

Annalouiza (06:00.716)
Yes.

Wakil David Matthews (06:02.125)
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, it's so important. I want to make sure and get that book into our Griever's Library that we have here in the Northwest. And it'd be a great book for that. And we've talked about the issue of caregiving. 

Annalouiza (07:04.654)
So yes, I love this impression you had at the tender age of 14, the impression that end of life care is both important for the caregiver and important to get your stuff in order, right? So it obviously made an impact on your life, because here we are talking about death and dying and Stillpoint. So can you give us a little bit more of that impression and how it moved through your whole life, how death has just been a foundational piece.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (07:45.086)
Well, sure. I think, you know, it made a difference into my career into becoming a social worker and really how systems impact us, like our family system and how we relate to the world and each other. And I was thinking about it as I was thinking about coming on and talking with y’all today. And I was thinking about even at a young age, I was an informal death doula for folks like people with the combination of my spirituality and my social work and the fact that I can talk about death. It's one of those things that a lot of people can't. So I was trained as a clinical therapist. I don't practice as one. I practice as a coach and I do other things.

I was really naive when I went through that training and I thought, oh therapists can talk about everything. Because I tend to be able to talk about everything like death and sex and finances.

Annalouiza (08:47.192)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (09:06.48)
And so many even therapists can't talk about if they haven't done their own work, if they haven't done their own work around death and dying and grieving. So I was in college and one of my classmates in social work, she was a non-traditional student, she was older, and she didn't have health insurance. And she ended up having a brain tumor. And by the time she got it diagnosed, it was too late. 

And I just remember… that was also one of my first experiences with hospice and how when hospice doesn't work well, it impacts and when it does work well. So because of who I was in her life and I was in a baby social worker at the time, I kind of took over that role. And then I was her unofficial death doula. And I just realized the impact of having and you know, I don't really like labels of good or bad or things like that, but really having a good death or having a plan.

Annalouiza (15:50.102)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (15:51.539)
Or having the support you need towards end of life, how big of a difference it can make for everybody involved.

Annalouiza (15:59.01)
Right. Yeah. And I appreciate that you don't want to judge what that end of life looks like, neither good nor bad, you know, but we don't want to stay neutral. But what I hear from you right now is that it worked. 

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (16:07.03)
Right?

Wakil David Matthews (16:07.941)
Yeah.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (16:09.707)
Right?

Annalouiza (16:26.966)
Your service to this woman worked for her. And what we always want is like the care that we have for others will work for them and the caregivers for that matter. Right. So it's just, it is all going to look different. So you stepped up.

Wakil David Matthews (16:30.521)
Yeah.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (16:30.591)
And think so much of that is being able to have the conversations. I think it's being able to ask the person who's in the dying process and the family. Because, I mean, I don't know. Well, I do know. 

Annalouiza (16:34.477)
Right.

Wakil David Matthews (16:34.842)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:40.653)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (16:41.06)
Yeah.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (16:59.509)
It's rare that everybody is able to talk about it and that everybody and the different parts of where they are in their grief and loss and well, a good example, I mentioned my Aunt Joan who, loved my Aunt Joan.

So in the last two years, I've lost seven family members. And my Aunt Joan was one of them. And my Aunt Joan had triple-negative breast cancer. And she went through traditional treatment. She was diagnosed during COVID. She wanted to go on an alternative route, but we did all the research, and it just, she's like, so she did chemo and radiation, was cancer free maybe six months, maybe nine months, and then it came back.

Wakil David Matthews (17:10.382)
Mmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (17:30.067)
And she called me and she said, they're giving me six to nine months to live without chemo or radiation and they're tacking on maybe three to six months with chemo and radiation. And she said, and I don't care if it's vain or not, but I am not dying bald. And I said, okay, you get a choice, right? You get a choice. She had some expletives and cuss words in there too, but I said, what do you wanna do? 

Wakil David Matthews (17:47.589)
Ha

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (17:59.411)
And… My Aunt Joan was the traveler. She was the one when she was young, she would save up all her money and then she would give her two weeks notice. And that's important for later in the story. She would give her two weeks notice and then she would travel to all over the world and tell she ran out of money and then she'd go get another job and she'd travel again. So it's what she loved to do. And she would wander. 

Annalouiza (18:13.602)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (18:27.477)
And so when I caught when we were talking, I said, what do want to do? And she said, well, you know, you, you when you get news like this, you think, my bucket list, right? And she said, but the reality is I feel like crap. Like I really don't want to do anything, but I want to travel and I want to go see her mom. At this point, my mom was in Colorado and she was in Texas. And cause I had moved my parents within a year for my dad's treatment, who was also in the process of dying. So I said, all right, I'm coming to get you.

Annalouiza (18:35.17)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (18:52.363)
She said, you don't have time to come get me. I know your schedule. said, well, obviously I don't have time not to come get you. So I'm coming. 

Annalouiza (18:57.198)
Ha ha ha

Wakil David Matthews (19:13.925)
Mm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (19:20.149)
And so I went, I flew into Dallas, Fort Worth and she picked me up and we started our journey towards Colorado. Now this is a trip you can make in one day. You can make it in two days if you're taking your time. I think we took four or five. Cause what we did is we got the app Roadside America. I don't know if y'all know this app. It's where you put in where you're traveling and it tells you where the funky and cool art is along the way. 

Annalouiza (19:23.222)
cool.
Love it.

Wakil David Matthews (19:34.597)
Mm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (19:45.553)
And it tells you how far off your journey you could go to see it. And people rate it and stuff like that. So we put in Roadside America and our goal was to wander and to see art and to have discussions and to talk along the way. And we met artists and it was just, it was fabulous. And it was… You know, it's also interesting because my aunt at the time was working at the Botanical Garden in Fort Worth. And she was like, well, she just went back and forth about quitting her job or not quitting her job or or that she had to give her two weeks notice. And I'm like, why do you have to give two weeks notice? You have a terminal like you have an end date. Like, what are we doing here? 

Wakil David Matthews (20:09.291)
Hmm

Annalouiza (20:12.856)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (20:14.933)
But it was part of those discussions, right? Because it was part of her work ethic that you give two weeks notice. And I'm like, well, if you love it and you want to stay there for two weeks, yeah. But if not, like, I think they would understand. 
Annalouiza (20:24.45)
Life is short now. You could, let's go.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (20:43.905)
Right? Right? Absolutely. So it's just funny the things that get stuck in our head. But with my Aunt Joan, I was the one that could talk to her about death and dying. She wouldn't talk to anybody else about it. Her siblings were a lot in denial about it.  

And when I would bring up hospice, she'd yell at me. And then, and we'd have a discussion about it and she'd hang up on me and she'd call me back and then she'd say, I hope you're okay. And I'm like, no, I'm good. Like this is part of my work in the world and part of these discussions. And so the day that the doctor brought up hospice, she didn't yell at the doctor. So I felt like I had done a really good job prepping her for this, right?

Wakil David Matthews (21:08.687)
That's right.

Annalouiza (21:08.75)
They're foundational pieces, foundational conversations, yeah.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (21:11.451)
Right? About palliative care and hospice care and what it looked like and yeah and I just and we had the conversations of what do you want, right? What do you want your death to look like? What do you want? And she had five things. She, she, love, we had so many the conversations but at the end it got it got down to this. 

Annalouiza (21:14.891)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (21:25.134)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (21:38.125)
I don't want to be in pain. I want to keep going. I want to keep working. I don't want to be bedridden. I want to keep going. I want to cack off. Those were her words at home. Like her brother did. 

Annalouiza (21:44.898)
Cack off.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (22:07.229)
Cack off. She called it. I want to cack off at home. Let's see. I want to go at home. I don't want to be in pain. I want it to be... I want to keep going until the end. I know there was more than that. And then she didn't want us to see her that way at the end. And I had trouble with that one. I know. The fifth was she didn't want to be alone. Because I had planned to be with her, and she was very clear. I don't you to see me this way I'm like Aunt Joan like this has been a part of my work and who I am for years and she's like I know but I want to be the fun outgoing adventurous aunt I'm like, well, you're always gonna be that to me and so…

Annalouiza (22:23.869)
Yeah, and she's obviously still gonna die as an adventurer.

Wakil David Matthews (22:27.737)
Yeah.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (22:34.781)
Right, absolutely, so I was actually out in your part of the world Wakil I was out on a bash on Island and I was doing an interplay event on Vashon Island and I was, she knew my travel schedule down to almost a minute because when I had dropped her back off after our grand adventure, we had adventured up to Colorado. I left her there with my mom for a week and I had gone and facilitated a retreat, and then I had come back, and we had wandered our way back, which included a hysterical story in Turkey, Texas, but that's for another podcast.

Wakil David Matthews (23:02.351)
Ha ha ha ha

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (23:04.147)
So I said, do you want me to stay? And this was, well, this was July. And she's like, no. And at this point, like we were one month into the three to six months. And she's like, no, you have this busy travel schedule this summer. I want you to go. I want you to travel. I want you to send me pics of the weird art along the way and we'll talk every day. 

So Vashon Island was my last stop on Labor Day before I was heading back to Texas and I was gonna work from Texas and just be with her. And I got, on Friday I got to the island and I got a text from her that I knew was a good bi-text. And I burst into tears and my friend and colleague that was with me was like, are you okay? 

Annalouiza (23:44.129)
Hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (23:57.449)
And I'm like, my Aunt Joan is slipping out before I make it to Texas. And she's like, how do you know? And I said, part of it is I've been doing this long enough. This text is so different than any other text she's ever sent me. And it was a beautiful text. It was about how proud she was of me and how well I had created my life. Like, I mean, it was just... 

And I woke up the next morning to the news that she had passed in the middle of the night. And she got everything she wanted. Her friends stopped by to check on her that night and knew she was having trouble, so stayed. The family was not with her. She'd sent her sister off for the weekend.

Annalouiza (24:00.948)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:10.048)
Love it.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (24:27.129)
She was not in pain. It was literally almost two months to the date that she had gotten the three to six months diagnosis. She had said, I don't want to linger. And so she created what she wanted, right? I'm like, how can you be mad about that? You got everything you wanted, right? So.

Annalouiza (24:31.97)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love it. Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (24:40.793)
Well… That's so great. Wow.

Annalouiza (24:44.422)
Yeah. that's so phenomenal. And the two things you were ready to have all these conversations to prepare her to actually articulate what she wanted and kind of manifest it. And then the second part of this is the phenomenal experience of both her death and you witnessing this even from afar. It was, you see you bore witness to this. it's awesome.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (25:07.627)
Right? It was powerful. It was powerful. And I was able to prep my mom, who's older sister, because I called my mom and I was just, because the siblings were like, oh, this is, and I was like, oh, they're in denial, right? And I called and said, hey, mom, I just need you to know, Aunt Joan’s, she's not hanging out. I think she's made her decision and I think she's going sooner than later. And she goes, I think so too.

Wakil David Matthews (25:10.371)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (25:21.783)
Yeah.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (25:33.567)
So I think out of all the siblings, she was more prepared. Like I'd had a little bit of gentler conversations with the other siblings, but they really didn't want to hear it. You know, everybody has their different way of processing.

Annalouiza (25:47.138)
They do. it's so hard to me. I just got an email this weekend from somebody who wants to meet with me who said, I live with my child, and my child does not want to discuss my death and has actively told me that they will just shut me down if I go there. And I was like, wow, who does this?

Wakil David Matthews (26:09.701)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (26:14.636)
I'm glad that we're in the world that we can hold that space for folks because it's so needed.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (26:18.209)
Right? Right?

Wakil David Matthews (26:19.301)
Yeah, yeah. This is our goal and vision for this whole thing that we're doing. And it's really been so rewarding to hear from so many people about the kind of work that you're doing, the kind of work that others are doing, just to try to bring this up, make it a conversation that everybody has. So thank you for your work. Thanks for the stories. It was really fun. I would have loved to met her.

Annalouiza (26:41.344)
Aunt Joan…

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (26:42.877)
Aunt Joan. She, y'all, she, okay, I have to say this one other thing about Aunt Joan because I have to tell everyone. She was such a bad. She was so incredible. She taught people how to skydive. She was a master jump master. So for my coming of age trip, she flew me out to California and taught me how to jump out of a plane over the, over the Mojave Desert. 

Annalouiza (27:01.016)
I love her.

Wakil David Matthews (27:01.039)
Hahaha.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (27:42.7)
Like she was just in, she, this is what I say about folks, about her to folks. She expanded my world.

Wakil David Matthews (27:12.173)
Yeah, yeah. Sounds like everyone's world she touched. yeah. Very cool. Well, tell us more about your work, what you're doing now, Interplay, other things that you're working on. We'd like to hear more about that.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (27:26.315)
Thank you. Yeah, it kind of depends on the day. You know, I think the main gist of my work is I uplift people's voices, especially people that are in the margins. 

Annalouiza (27:31.031)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (27:55.571)
And I am a big believer in uplifting their work and their life. And whether that's through podcasting or stories or interplay or coaching. It is one of my privileges in this world to walk alongside people and to help get the word out about who they are and what they do and mirror, you said earlier about mirroring back to each other, like mirror their awesomeness. I am just always in awe of how many incredible, people would say ordinary people, like just how incredible people are. 

And, so what I get to do is I get to talk to those folks on the podcast and Women Connected in Wisdom. I get to help write their stories and publish their stories. I get to walk alongside a lot of artists and write, you know, books with them and play and, you know, interplay right now is one of, I mean, it's been my love for a long time. And like I said earlier, I was trained as a clinical social worker and I was introduced to interplay through Sheila K Collins. And when I hit interplay, like it is a somatic way of being. And we use movement and storytelling and voice to help people access their wisdom. Like that's it. 

Annalouiza (29:01.55)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (29:18.907)
I'm like, here I am because one of the things I love is community social work. And so I do groups with different folks. And like one of my groups is with women who are transitioning out of homelessness.

And using interplay and tools when we talk about death, we talk about really hard subjects, we do it in a way that is fun and it's hard to say that, you know, like we play with tough subjects. 

Annalouiza (29:37.142)
Yeah, I love that.

Wakil David Matthews (29:43.108)
Yeah.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (29:51.189)
And but one of the reasons is, is because we're in our bodies and we can and we're aware of when it's too much or we have tools when it becomes too much to release it. So that's what I
get to do. I get to play and create.

Wakil David Matthews (29:53.817)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (29:54.2)
Yeah, well, and I'm going to say, I think there's, said it's weird to say fun. And I'm going to just like add to that, that it's not necessarily like for people who want to poo poo that the death can't be fun. It's adding lightness to the conversation, adding like an openness and not a constriction, right? So that it could feel ample and restorative rather than like fricative and tense. Right, right. So yes.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (30:08.682)
Right?

Wakil David Matthews (30:09.796)
Yeah.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (30:21.087)
And nurturing, right? Right? Absolutely. And you know, I've the privilege of taking this work into prisons and other places and places that when you say constrictive, are the most, you know, I was in a maximum security prison in Georgia one time and I was doing interplay with lifers. These are people that probably will not get out.

Annalouiza (30:45.976)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (30:46.013)
And you know, and we were doing interplay and I had facilitated a one-hand dance, which is a form we do. And then one of things we do in interplay is we do things and then we notice. So I've done interplay with folks who are in the dying process and then you notice, you check in with your body, like what is happening, right? And this lifer notices after this one minute, two minute form, I felt freedom.

Wakil David Matthews (31:11.813)
Wow.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (31:12.371)
And to be able to bring that experience to somebody who was in one of the most constrictive places, like it took me six locked gates to get to the classroom. That, you know, and the same thing when working with folks who are, you know, struggling with dementia or Alzheimer's or in the dying process, to be able to give moments of freedom or joy or going to another place in their imagination is, is beautiful. Like it's such a gift, right?

Annalouiza (31:36.126)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's so beautiful. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So...

Wakil David Matthews (31:39.759)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so good. Thank you. That's beautiful. I really appreciate that. Yeah. I have to join Wendy one of these times.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (31:49.949)
Yes, please. You would love it.

Annalouiza (31:50.294)
Yeah. I'll have to find out if there's something in Denver.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (31:55.249)
Oh you bet, because you know what? I'm there often and actually Denver has, out to my Denver Interplay leaders, they are “Gather the Wild and Interplay Colorado. Absolutely, they're an incredible group of people.

Annalouiza (32:11.83)
Alright, I gotta go check them out.

Wakil David Matthews (32:12.741)
Cool. Yeah, this will all be in our notes, our podcast notes, so people can look it up too. Yeah. Very good. Thank you.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (32:16.948)
I love it.

Annalouiza (32:20.3)
All right, so with this supporting and opening heart-affirming work that you do, what do you find are your biggest challenges?

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (32:32.233)
Mmm, my biggest challenges. I love that. Remembering to do my practices to stay grounded. I in the times we are currently living I Feel like I've needed to double or triple my practice to really stay grounded People are hurting like people are hurting and resources are going away and

Wakil David Matthews (32:40.793)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (32:49.812)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (32:52.909)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (32:54.498)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (33:01.003)
So really staying rooted and grounded so I can show up fully present. And then I think one of the biggest challenges is the clearing of that energy. Because I really do have practices that clear energy and even good stuff. Like sometimes it's the good stuff I have to clear. Because I'll be laying in bed just grinning at the ceiling because it was so good. And it's like you have to sleep.

Annalouiza (33:11.982)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (33:12.718)
Mmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (33:26.761)
So I think that those clearing practices and being able to come back to center, especially with big and challenging things, because everybody I know is going through three to five big and challenging things right now. It's... Yeah.

Annalouiza (33:33.486)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (33:42.744)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, there's, just read an article about the noticeable difference in both mental health and deaths happening because of the crazy insane government that's trying to do new authoritarian government is doing so many crazy things every day. It is overwhelming for anybody. And I totally agree with you. I love that earlier you were sharing about the laughter and the joy. we often say, tears are sacred here and laughter is sacred here. And to celebrate that is part of the work we do, think, is celebrate both and make sure people know that that's a sacred thing. Thank you. We don't apologize, we thank.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (34:18.399)
Yep. Yep.

Annalouiza (34:19.939)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (34:23.554)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (34:28.723)
It really is. Right? Well, and it's true and it is, and not to minimize this work y'all. Like, mean, anybody that has been at somebody's bedside when they have crossed, it's big work. It's powerful work. I'm coming up on the anniversary of my dad's death, which was this time last year. And I was in...

Annalouiza (34:30.988)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (34:38.396)
yeah, yeah.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (34:56.115)
Where was I at? I wasn't in Denver. I was in Aurora at the Veterans Hospital there. We had moved my dad there for care after a catastrophic fall. And I got the call after one of his last hospitalizations. I had been there, and then I had to go do something. And then I got the call that when he was coming, we thought he was improving, but when he was coming out, he was going to come out in hospice, and we knew it it was getting time. And so I knew what my role was.

Annalouiza (35:25.55)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (35:25.685)
Like I just knew and I got there and my sister was like, I'm so glad you're here. I cannot have this conversation. And I said, okay. And my dad was having dementia. So we were having a, you know, we had wanted to talk to him about dying, but also he was going in and out of dementia and we weren't sure that it would get stuck in there the wrong way. you know, 

Annalouiza (35:44.567)
Right.
Right, no fear.

Wakil David Matthews (35:50.563)
Hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (35:52.913)
Right. And so my job for the last two weeks of his life was to hold his hand and tell him it was okay to die. who y'all, can I just tell you, like, I mean, I do this as part of my work in the world and I have done it with numerous people, but when it is your daddy, like, that is a whole nother story. But we laughed, we sang, we cried, we played.

Annalouiza (35:59.147)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (35:59.536)
Wow.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (36:20.321)
One of the funniest stories from that time was I would play different music for him because I am a big believer in music and stories and sensations and I was playing country music one time because we're originally from Texas and Jose Cuervo came on and he's like, whoa, I could use some tequila.

Wakil David Matthews (36:42.626)
Ha Ha

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (36:43.937)
And by this point, he was barely eating anything. Like it was, I was like, really dad? That's how we're going to go out. Okay, well how much you want? And he's like, I need a quart. Whoa, we really are. 

Annalouiza (36:46.286)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (36:55.565)
handle.

Wakil David Matthews (37:09.1)
Yeah.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (37:10.483)
And so his CNA came in and I was one of his favorite certified nurse assistants. And I was like, hey, pops wants some tequila. He was like, he doesn't want dinner. He wants tequila. She's like, really pops? And so it was, you know, we laughed, we had a good time. And it was, it was hard, you know, the letting go was harder for us, of course. And then, this part was so funny. He had always told me he was going to be stubborn and ornery. I mean, he told me that his whole life. He was a Vietnam vet. He was like, was football coach from Texas. He's like, I'm not going to make this easy on you.

I'm like, well, thanks for the heads up, Dad. Appreciate it. So the day he is dying, and he had been like three days without eating or drinking, we knew he was doing a life review, we knew it was close, I was holding his hand, telling him it was okay. Oh there were two funny stories. So hospice comes, gives him a bath, and he had not been ambulatory in a year. But anybody who's been with somebody who's dying, you feel them when they wake up or when they sit up and.
Annalouiza (38:06.318)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (38:06.997)
So he'd had a hospice bath. I come back into the room and I feel him sit up. I'm like, dad, where are going? He goes, I'm heading home to have hot sex with my wife. I'm like, all right, dad. And then at the very end, he starts his, my mom and my sister and the kids had gone to dinner and he starts his death breathing and I call them back. And he's, doing this for probably an hour and a half and we're singing and we're praying and we're, you know, we got all the stuff going and, and then he falls asleep. 

I'm just like, dad, like you do. I was like, okay. And my mom took a nap and I sent everybody else home. And my dad was a farmer who loved flowers. He grew flowers, he grew food, fed his family, and he transitioned at midnight under the full flower moon. It was beautiful. It was just beautiful. Yeah.

Annalouiza (39:09.688)
Beautiful.

Wakil David Matthews (39:10.213)
Wow. Yeah, yeah. I remember when my dad died, I was sitting with him as well. And the hospice person came in, and I think a social worker, and said, take a break. You you've been here for two days, basically. And I said, OK, well, I'll go down and get something to eat. And just as soon as I got down to the cafeteria and I bought something, I get a call. You better come back.

Annalouiza (39:16.44)
Wow.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (39:30.081)
Ready?

Wakil David Matthews (39:38.851)
And he died while he was gone. And they said, happens so often, I'm sure you've all experienced this, that they wait till their loved ones are out of the room. so people make that choice.

Annalouiza (39:50.776)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (39:52.449)
I think it also comes down to, and I might be wrong, but I think it comes down to like who, how okay the person is with letting them go, right? Because my grandfather, I was at his feet. I often stand at the feet and have conversations with the person. And I was having a conversation with him and I got very clearly that I needed to take my dad to lunch.
And I took my dad to lunch and that's when he passed away. He needed my dad to be out of the room. so it's, think, you know, I've done this, I was trained as a birth doula years ago. And I think the death doula is kind of the same thing, right? It means service. 

Annalouiza (40:25.281)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (40:26.191)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (40:51.591)
Doula means service in Greek. And I always connect with the person's spirit and have a conversation and ask like, what do you need? Or what do you know, really is what you need, even the little ones that were coming in, like what do you need? What's gonna make this easier, the coming or the going, right? 

Annalouiza (40:59.65)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (41:12.036)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (41:21.269)
Or ask them. Like I said to dad when I was having a conversation, I was like, all right, dad, like, come on now. What do you need? And I got really clear, right, he, I said if there was anything unresolved like you can send me a message, you can send me a sign. I'm okay to be listening for that. Like if there's something, I said, you don't have to hang onto this body to do that. Like you can, it's okay to let go.

Wakil David Matthews (41:21.925)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (41:31.242)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (41:34.989)
Yeah, beautiful, beautiful. Yeah, that makes a big difference. Yeah, thank you for that. Yeah. Is there? 

Annalouiza (41:35.01)
Good. Yeah. Good work.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (41:36.033)
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it's powerful work, but.

Wakil David Matthews (41:44.989)
Yeah, it is. It's one of the most sacred things I've ever experienced. Yeah. Is there as you look toward your own death, is there anything you fear at the end of your life?

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (41:48.747)
Mm-hmm, me too.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (41:57.217)
I don't know that it's fear, but it's more of, I'm very clear how I want some things to go, right? Like I want the music, I want the hand holding, I want. 

Annalouiza (42:05.676)
Hahaha

Wakil David Matthews (42:10.522)
Yeah.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (42:24.961)
And I don't think it's fear, but I wouldn't want to be alone. I mean, I think I'd be okay if I was alone, but I do want the whole kumbaya. Like I want want my favorite playlist and I want my... Yeah, I think that...

Wakil David Matthews (42:28.109)
Yeah.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (42:36.489)
I don't know, my youngest could totally do it. I'm curious about my husband and my daughter, like my oldest daughter, because they have different personalities, right? But I think, I mean, I think I'm clear enough that I'm going to be transparent with what I want or don't want. 

Wakil David Matthews (42:39.173)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (42:51.232)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (42:51.973)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (42:59.446)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (43:04.479)
And, and even as I said that alone, I don't even think that's really a fear because I have such a good practice when I'm alone, like, because I don't feel like I'm alone. I feel like I'm with spirit. So, yeah, I don't know that there is because I because I've been there at birth and I've been there at death. Like I know that there's more.

Wakil David Matthews (43:14.905)
Mm-hmm, yes.

Annalouiza (43:21.944)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (43:29.081)
Right?

Annalouiza (43:33.038)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (43:34.507)
And I don't know exactly what that more is, but I'm I'm okay. Like I, I know I can communicate on the other side. I think that's the other piece of it, right? Is that I've had those experiences of loved ones communicating with me. And so I'm like, okay, maybe that would be the fear is if I couldn't communicate as a communicator.

Wakil David Matthews (43:35.919)
Yeah.

Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (43:39.052)
Right. Well, that's yeah, like the line went dead.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (43:44.679)
Right? Right? Is it work- Can you hear me now?

Wakil David Matthews (43:44.933)
Right that would that would suck Yeah

Annalouiza (43:47.81)
Yeah, tap, tap, tap Morse code. Yeah. Yeah. I think I actually believe that we'll be able to communicate. So, and you know, my kids always tell me like, make sure you try really hard. just whatever it is, we'll know it's you. My ex-husband always said, don't ever do that to me. I just might.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (43:52.119)
Right?

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (43:59.169)
Right? Aww.

Wakil David Matthews (43:59.492)
Hahaha.

Right. Yeah.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (44:05.089)
Yeah

Wakil David Matthews (44:05.701)
Now you're really going to do that. Yeah, I love that you're saying that you're mentioning all those things. think that's part of what we talk about too a lot is we have all of these wishes. We want to make sure the people who are going to be there know those wishes, especially if there's an issue around dementia sooner than later. Right. 

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (44:09.057)
Right? Right?

Annalouiza (44:22.861)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (44:28.289)
Thanks

Wakil David Matthews (44:33.349)
But at any time, it's really important to, and we, I do a class and I tell people, get all these things done as much as you can. be a great gift to your family. Let them know exactly what you want, like all the details of what you can take, what they'll need to take care of. And then update it on a regular basis. You could do this when you're 18, right? And then keep doing it your whole life. Have a death party right after your birthday party to talk to everybody who's gonna deal with your body. So, yeah.

Annalouiza (44:47.896)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (44:53.838)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (44:54.593)
Well and back to the conversation we were having about my grandparents. So I think this was another thing that was so different from other people at that time. Both my grandparents donated their body to science. 

Wakil David Matthews (45:07.047)
Wow. Haha.

Wakil David Matthews (45:16.421)
Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (45:24.669)
So we were having to have those conversations as a family that were different than like, you know, we didn't have a crem- we didn't do a cremation or a burial in a traditional way because their wishes were, especially with my grandfather, for Alzheimer's, like they were that was part of their values is to have the scientific study. And so I just I hadn't even thought about that before this moment in this conversation. Like what an interesting conversation I had be having back in the 80s about death and wishes and what happens. And as a 14 year old, right? So fascinating. Like I really have not thought about that in years, y'all. Thank you.

Wakil David Matthews (45:34.735)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (45:45.346)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (45:45.891)
Yeah, yeah, wow.

Annalouiza (45:52.94)
Well, as we're thinking about all these little things around the end of life and you do the work, how are you keeping yourself resourced?

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (46:01.648)
Oh, nature. Right now, nature, right? 

Annalouiza (46:03.382)
Yeah. Yay. Number one answer.

Wakil David Matthews (46:03.749)
Number one answer.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (46:29.097)
I love, I am so lucky for my birthday one year we built a labyrinth in my backyard. So I like to greet the sunrise and do meditation and walking meditations and I'm just, and interplay. I like, I mean, I get I get paid to do the work that I love, right? 

Annalouiza (46:31.751)
Beautiful.
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (46:42.639)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (46:56.888)
Yep.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (46:58.837)
And so I play and I connect and I'm doing more than ever as far as needing to resource myself. But thank goodness I have all those tools in my toolkit and really just connecting with the trees and reminding myself through them that incremental steps and things take time. 

And then I got some deep roots. that piece of it that when the wind blows, cause man it has, especially with grief and loss lately in my family, that we're still connected and we're still rooted and we still, you know, we can do this.

Wakil David Matthews (47:15.309)
Yeah, yeah. I was hugging a 500 year old virtually yesterday and thinking how that what a great lesson that is in patience.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (47:23.745)
I met a cork tree recently in California. I don't think I'd ever met one before and I was out in California and I met this this ancestor cork tree when you say fir tree I was like I think this cork tree was one of the oldest trees I'd ever met it was delightful.

Annalouiza (47:42.498)
Hmm. We are so blessed.

Wakil David Matthews (47:42.564)
Yeah, aren't we blessed for that? That's right. Yeah, that's like we said, that's the number one answer we get when we ask that question. Well, we're getting toward the end of the time now. And we always want to make sure we check with you. Is there anything you wish we had asked you? Anything else you'd like to share with us?

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (48:03.487)
I just think the remembering that when you're walking through this, whether it's for yourself or with other people to really check in with your body and what are you noticing in this moment and that it may have changed, right? 

Annalouiza (48:27.33)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (48:28.947)
Like when you talk, Wakil, about updating it, like you may have had a certain and a set way that you thought it was always going to be.and things shifted or you shifted and that it's okay to check in with ourselves and to change it. And it's okay to change it in the moment if something's not working. 

Annalouiza (48:38.542)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (48:38.969)
Yeah, yeah.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (48:56.041)
Like if we thought, okay, this was gonna be the way it is, just to be really present. I think the being present and the checking it, going back to our body, like just going back and what do we need in this moment? Both as caregivers or the person going through the process, what is needed in this moment. I think is one of the things I try to always be with.

Wakil David Matthews (49:00.293)
Yeah, beautiful.

Annalouiza (49:05.966)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (49:06.233)
Yeah, I love that. Octavia Butler says, God is change. Another one of our saints. Yeah. Well, thank you so much.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (49:10.638)
Mm-hmm. Right? Absolutely.

Annalouiza (49:12.02)
Another Saint. Mm hmm. Well, great. Well, yeah, did you find your your poem that you're going to share? Let's hear it. OK.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (49:21.919)
I did. I would love to. It's a quote actually. This used to hang above my desk and I think it's really appropriate when we talk about end of life or we think about it, right? And this is from Ralph Waldo Emerson. What is success? To laugh often and much, to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children, to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends.

To appreciate the beauty, to find the best in others, to leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition, to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded.

Wakil David Matthews (50:15.397)
Wow.

Annalouiza (50:16.256)
I needed to hear that again. I remember interacting with that when I was in high school and I think I used to have a photocopy of that for years like on my desk and I'm like, I forgot I had that one. That's a good one.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (50:27.615)
Right? I used to have it above my desk when I worked at a social work agency. I just, I mean, I, y'all asked about what I'm afraid of, right? I think, I often think like I have succeeded and you know, I want to be around for a long time, but I also live my life that if I needed to go today, okay. Right? People that I love know that I love them.

Annalouiza (50:31.0)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (50:33.669)
That's, yeah.

Annalouiza (50:51.252)
It's okay.

Wakil David Matthews (50:52.463)
Yeah, yeah, that's it.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (50:56.349)
I tell them, you know, I don't know if you've seen on social media where it says make it awkward, tell your friends, yep, that's me. I'm the colleague that hangs up with, love ya. And I do my best to just be authentic and be present and know that, you know, we don't know how much time we have. And I want to laugh and find joy and look for the good and acknowledge the stuff that's not working so I can stand up and be present to say no. But, you know, I think we just, we have to play with this life that we're given.

Annalouiza (50:56.627)
Mm-hmm. Mm, every day.

Wakil David Matthews (51:17.091)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Annalouiza (51:23.203)
Mm-hmm. Thank you for the reminder.

Wakil David Matthews (51:33.818)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. What a beautiful way to end. yeah, yeah. Let's remember to remember to play in love and tears and all of it's all right. Everything's good.

Christine Gautreaux, MSW (51:42.753)
Right, play through it all and have fun. Yeah.