Annalouiza (00:02.018)
Welcome back everyone. Thank you so much for joining us today as we welcome Rabbi Rami Shapiro, PhD, who is an award-winning author of over 36 books on religion, spirituality, and recovery. Rami co-directs the One River Foundation, serves as a contributing editor for Spirituality and Health Magazine, and writes the bi-weekly substack, Ask Rabbi Rami.

Wakil David Matthews (00:28.144)
which I just went through today. I thinking how you had some great ones in there today about, I guess a couple of days ago you did, about antisemitism, which I really enjoyed. Antisyanism versus antisemitism. So recommend that to everybody. Sign up. Really wonderful to speak with you. I really appreciate that you were able to join us. Like I said, I subscribe to your Substack and I read one recently that was about the way you talk to children about.

Rabbi Rami (00:47.481)
Thank you for the invitation.

Wakil David Matthews (00:57.018)
death and grief and dying. It was called Avnot syndrome. And that was what inspired me to get in touch with Rabbi Rami. And I just thought it was such a great example of what we're trying to do, really, normalizing this conversation. So thank you for that. And thank you for graciously accepting our invitation.

Rabbi Rami (01:19.523)
Thank you for graciously inviting me.

Wakil David Matthews (01:21.776)
So we like to start with this question because it kind of, I think it just gives us a way of knowing each other better and that is, can you recall when you were first aware of death?

Rabbi Rami (01:34.765)
You know, it's an odd question, really, because I don't know exactly what aware means when you say aware of death. I mean, I could think the first, I had a parakeet when I was little and the parakeet died. So I knew I didn't have a parakeet, but was I aware of death? I don't know. I don't know what age this was, but I was also little. I remember.

Wakil David Matthews (01:38.692)
Hahaha.

Mm.

Wakil David Matthews (01:47.404)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (02:04.089)
going on my back, we didn't have a porch, we had like a cement patio behind the, you know, in the back of our house. And I would draw a circle and I would say to the ants, this is my territory, stay out. And if they came into the circle, I would kill them. So I knew there was, I was killing them. So I knew there was death. But did I really get the concept? Do I even still get the concept? I don't know.

Wakil David Matthews (02:17.783)
haha

Uh-huh.

Wakil David Matthews (02:24.677)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (02:29.646)
Ha ha ha.

Rabbi Rami (02:31.125)
I was talking with Matthew Ricard, the Buddhist teacher, Tibetan Buddhist teacher, about his book on compassion. And I was sharing the story about the ants. And he said, when an ant comes into your house or into your space or whatever, and if your tendency is to kill it, he says, what happens when your finger comes down and you

They're going to snuff out the ant's life. the ant makes a run. The ant runs. It tries to escape. And he says, the ant has this level of consciousness that is aware that its life is being threatened. And if you pay attention to the fact that it doesn't want to die, that is probably where I become most aware of death. Just listening to him say that and then becoming aware of.

Wakil David Matthews (03:04.912)
haha

Annalouiza (03:23.17)
Yes.

Wakil David Matthews (03:24.048)
Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (03:29.793)
is what I do in my own house imperfectly. I try to catch the bugs. I try to catch the flies in a tissue or something and take them outside and shake them off and let them go. But they don't know that. All they know is they don't know some guy is coming after them. All they know is some entity is trying. And their thing is, this is it. I've got to escape. So they're running to save their lives. You can see that they're

Wakil David Matthews (03:35.055)
You

Annalouiza (03:44.204)
Right.

Wakil David Matthews (03:52.464)
Try it.

Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (03:59.607)
They've got a consciousness of being and non-being to some extent. And so I think that helps me be more aware of death by seeing it in ants or flies or whatever it is that they have this existential, I'm on or I'm off and I want to stay on. And they're my teachers, I think, in that respect.

Wakil David Matthews (04:22.786)
You

Rabbi Rami (04:29.657)
more than a memory that I may have had.

Wakil David Matthews (04:30.083)
beautiful.

Yeah, I love that. Thank you. That's maybe the most unique answer we've had. That's really, really beautiful. Thank you.

Rabbi Rami (04:37.558)
You

Annalouiza (04:41.506)
Well, I appreciate that on two levels. One, because I've been coexisting with ants that just appeared last week. And I was like, we need to clean better on the counter. And yet yesterday, I had that moment when I'm like, I can't do this anymore. And I took a paper towel. And I plucked them all up. And some of them got killed. And they did run. And I said, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.

Wakil David Matthews (05:06.432)
Hahaha!

Rabbi Rami (05:06.937)
You

Annalouiza (05:07.566)
I'm so sorry. I need my boundaries right now. You can have everything else, but this cooktop is for me.

Rabbi Rami (05:14.829)
Yeah, no, I understand that. And I continue to inadvertently do that. And then I feel bad about it. in some cases, I'll even say the Kaddish, the Jewish prayer for the dead, to make their passing a little easier and remove some of the guilt on my end. But sometimes, and this is really not the topic, but sometimes,

Annalouiza (05:21.644)
Yes, yes.

Wakil David Matthews (05:29.387)
Hahaha!

Annalouiza (05:34.828)
Yes.

Yes.

Rabbi Rami (05:44.141)
I think I have them until I open the Kleenex and then, no. Well, I had them. I was hugging them too tightly. I inadvertently did something. yeah, don't want, mean, mosquitoes, can't. I take my dog for, we walk for miles every day and there's a place we go and we sit on a swing.

Wakil David Matthews (05:47.184)
And not only do you not have them, but now they're pissed. yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, that happens.

Annalouiza (05:53.486)
Thank

Annalouiza (05:57.56)
Yes, yes, yes.

Annalouiza (06:04.109)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (06:04.208)
Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (06:12.493)
that she likes to sit on my lap and we just swing back and forth. And mosquitoes come. And my reaction to mosquitoes when I feel them is I slap them. I don't say, mosquito, please, or offer them my blood. I'm not doing that. I'm not a saint. So I'm a serial killer when it comes to mosquitoes, I guess. But it's not even conscious. I just.

Wakil David Matthews (06:23.6)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (06:26.909)
Hahaha!

Annalouiza (06:28.302)
Please. Right. Right.

Wakil David Matthews (06:30.352)
That's good. That's great.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rabbi Rami (06:41.419)
It just happens.

Annalouiza (06:42.872)
Well, you know, that's thing with life though. It's, it's, feels like it's not conscious, but maybe it is, you know? And so I had the ant story for you. And then also there's this little Japanese maple that I planted, beside my house, maybe about 15 years ago. And unfortunately it's on the side of the house where I don't have water. So I just kind of kind of remember sometimes I go water in the summer and it's. It's really struggled. And for a few years, I actually thought it was dead in this year.

life has sprung. It's a little canopy, just a little one. It's almost like a bonsai maple tree. I walked past it the other day and I thought, you still want to live in spite of the dearth of water and maybe the dearth of love that I Like I'm not paying attention. I'm so sorry. And I was like, I will call somebody to try to get water to you.

Wakil David Matthews (07:24.592)
See you.

Wakil David Matthews (07:30.403)
Haha.

Rabbi Rami (07:38.937)
You

Annalouiza (07:41.546)
you have proven yourself to want to or so. know, so that's right. And it's in it's I guess it's what Keelan might talk a lot about the different kinds of deaths we experience in our personal lives, just like the breath, you know, the grief of a dream that's not going to come into fruition. But, you know, so death has impacted all of our tales from the very beginning. So my question to you.

Wakil David Matthews (07:44.144)
Worthy of life.

Annalouiza (08:12.328)
is how has death impacted the story of your life?

Rabbi Rami (08:17.005)
Well, you know, there's, if I heard you right, as you set the question up, I mean, there's the death of a dream, the death of a relationship, I mean, those kinds of things. And I don't know if that's exactly what you want to talk about, but physical death, when someone's life ends. You know, my parents died and that was quite traumatic. I lost an aunt during COVID. I mean, that was less traumatic.

because it was at a great distance and we couldn't really be with her. I've lost teachers. My parents were elderly. And I suppose my teachers were elderly also, but they didn't seem that way to me. And so I've lost teachers. And that's been very profound in my life because I wasn't done learning.

Wakil David Matthews (09:00.72)
Ha ha ha ha.

Wakil David Matthews (09:11.437)
Mm-hmm

Rabbi Rami (09:12.939)
And of course, there's their books and things, but I wasn't done learning from them.

Wakil David Matthews (09:19.012)
Right.

Rabbi Rami (09:21.989)
I don't know if you're familiar with Father Thomas Keating, but Father Thomas, he was one of my most important teachers. And I went to see him as he was dying. He lasted longer than I thought, a few weeks longer than I thought, but I was with him very close to the end. I asked him, because I realized most of the people that I know who are dying die without me next to them.

Wakil David Matthews (09:36.496)
Hmm.

Rabbi Rami (09:51.499)
My mom died, but I wasn't there. My dad, I was right with him. And then he sent my sister and I and my mom, he sent us out of the room. And then he died. He knew it. He just wanted to be alone. And then we came back. So, but I was with Father Thomas and I knew he was dying very soon. And I had the opportunity to ask somebody who I believe

Wakil David Matthews (10:06.074)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (10:21.305)
was a deep spiritual person who understood the divine the way I do, who really knew God was manifesting as him, in him, with him and everything else. And so I asked him, said, how are you dying? I knew how he lived, I'd known him for decades, but how are you dying? And he gave me one of the most profound teachings.

Wakil David Matthews (10:41.616)
You

Rabbi Rami (10:50.137)
I don't want to exaggerate the deathbed thing, but it was weeks before he died. So I'm thinking in my mind to me, it's like a deathbed teaching. And he said, I'm dying the way I lived. And I don't know if the camera will pick it up, but he cupped his hands like water. And he said, this is how I live my life. He said, every time Thomas would come up, every time the egoic would come up, I'd let Thomas go. And he'd drop his hands into his lap.

He's sitting in a wheelchair dressed in his monk's outfit, woolen cassock. He'd raise his hands up and he'd say, every time Thomas comes up, I let Thomas go. And he'd drop his hands. He did it over and over and over again. And then he said, one of these times, Thomas is going to come up. I'm going to let Thomas go. And Thomas won't come back up. And he said, that's how I'm going to die.

Wakil David Matthews (11:19.226)
you

Wakil David Matthews (11:41.584)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (11:46.047)
And he said, that's death. mean, the egoic self no longer comes back up. So then I said, OK, so where do you go? And I figured, because he's Catholic. And I thought, if you ask me that question, I have my answer nowhere. But I thought, OK, he's Catholic, and maybe there's more to it than in his mind. And he gives me this look, which I can't duplicate.

Wakil David Matthews (12:05.744)
You

Rabbi Rami (12:14.925)
gives me this look, which basically says, we've been together this long, and you still ask me that stupid question. That's so ridiculous. But what he said basically was, you don't go anywhere, because without that limited self, you're the whole thing. So it's like the wave returning to the ocean. Or like what Keelak, you mentioned from my substack example, you're a knot on this infinite rope. And when you die, the knot is untied.

Wakil David Matthews (12:20.248)
Hahaha!

Rabbi Rami (12:43.659)
So that specific shape that we associate with Ana Luisa or with Rami or with Waqeel, that specific, not that specific shape is gone, but that shape was only the rope and the rope remains. So you don't go anywhere, but your egoic consciousness is gone. Your sense of limited self is gone. Thomas is gone. Rami is gone. No member is gone. But that's not who you really are.

Annalouiza (12:56.942)
Yes.

Wakil David Matthews (12:57.474)
right? Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (13:12.737)
You're really the rope, the ocean, the cosmos, the Christ mind, the Buddha mind, know, Buddha nature, or however you want to articulate it. But you're the vastness, and that doesn't die. So being with people who are dying is probably more, has had a greater impact on my life than people who have died, if that makes sense.

Wakil David Matthews (13:40.344)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think we've, I agree totally. And that's one of the things we've, well, first of all, my dad did the same thing as yours. He, you he waited till I left the room. So, and I've heard that's very common, actually. But also, just that sense of the inner, the divine that's all of us, that we're all manifesting is not something in time.

And so it doesn't go away like that. love that thing very, very much. And I love that idea too, just that's what, that's the impact that it has on our lives is to be able to witness that when we witness people changing their form, is that the really sacred moment.

Rabbi Rami (14:23.587)
Yeah. I mean, sometimes it is. And sometimes it's sacred and humorous at the same time. I once got a phone call when I was in the Congregational Rabbinate. I was also at the VA as a chaplain. was an Air Force chaplain. And then I volunteered at the VA afterwards. And I got this call saying this guy was dying and you have to get there as fast as can.

Wakil David Matthews (14:31.958)
Sure.

Rabbi Rami (14:52.057)
And by the time I got there, he had died. And his son was standing outside his hospital room. And I said, and I apologize for not being there in time. And the guy says, because, don't worry about it. He'll be back. And I thought to myself, I thought, wow, this guy's in serious denial. And we were just talking. And then you hear from inside the hospital room, Sonny.

Annalouiza (15:08.707)
Ha

Wakil David Matthews (15:15.376)
Right.

Rabbi Rami (15:21.617)
Sonny. And he came back. And we went in. And the guy said to me, he's been doing this all day. He dies. He comes back. He dies. He comes back. So eventually he didn't come back.

Wakil David Matthews (15:24.472)
You

Wakil David Matthews (15:31.311)
Ha

Wakil David Matthews (15:35.726)
Wow, there you go.

Annalouiza (15:36.952)
is so cool.

Wakil David Matthews (15:42.446)
Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (15:45.367)
Yeah, I mean, I've got a lot of stories about people who have impacted my life in there by allowing me to be with them in their dying. Some of them are great teachers like Father Thomas. Some of them are just ordinary people like this guy who just was coming back. But where Father Thomas gave a teaching from, I would say,

Wakil David Matthews (15:45.594)
That's great, yeah.

Annalouiza (15:55.214)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (16:03.63)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rabbi Rami (16:15.321)
Oh, I don't know if this is going to make sense. He gave a teaching from Thomas. You know what mean? Like, this is his understanding infused by the divine because of a lifetime of contemplative living. And this other fellow was just coming back and going out. It was all different. if you'll indulge me with one more story, I was with this 16-year-old boy who was dying. And he had

Wakil David Matthews (16:21.306)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yes.

Wakil David Matthews (16:38.169)
Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (16:44.545)
become enamored with Swami Muktananda. And I think it's Siddha yoga practice. think that's Swami Muktananda. And he was practicing meditation. And I was supporting his practice. His family was, you know, we're Jews, what's he doing? And I said, no, this is fine. Don't worry about it. It's not. I mean, I'm

Wakil David Matthews (16:55.364)
I think that's right, yeah.

Annalouiza (17:09.367)
you

Wakil David Matthews (17:09.488)
Hahaha.

Rabbi Rami (17:13.625)
an initiate in the Ramakrishna order of Advaita Vedanta Hinduism as well as a rabbi. I I spent 10 years in Zen world, so I'm not locked into a box. And here was this teenager who found solace in the practice of Siddha Yoga. we're sitting in his hospital room. He is dying. He's unconscious. And we're just waiting for him to pass.

Annalouiza (17:21.688)
Gotcha.

Wakil David Matthews (17:22.768)
You're right.

Annalouiza (17:25.025)
Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (17:43.457)
And then all of a sudden, he sits up in bed, which he couldn't do, just, you he was too sick to do that normally, but he sat up in bed, his face is glowing like a beacon. He's got this huge smile and he's looking at each person and he just says, I found it. And then he died and he fell back on the pillow and he was gone.

It was amazing. And then I jumped on the bed. I grabbed him. I shook him. said, what? What did you find? No, I didn't. I didn't do that. I didn't. I thought about it, but I didn't do it. But he had some awakening as, you know, like Thomas would say, as Thomas just went into the hole, the wave returns to the ocean. This kid had that experience, but he was, we who were witnessing it.

Wakil David Matthews (18:14.745)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (18:18.992)
you find?

Annalouiza (18:22.446)
you

Rabbi Rami (18:41.817)
were lucky enough that he could share that moment of dissolving with his family, with me, with some others who are in the room, to show us what that is. mean, I don't mean to romanticize it, it's, you you've got the Ganesh over your shoulder. I mean, it seems to me that he was experiencing or entering into pure, know, Chit Ananda, pure consciousness, pure being, pure bliss.

Wakil David Matthews (19:09.518)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rabbi Rami (19:11.865)
and he was embodying it before he died. And I was like, wow, what a gift that he gave to his family.

Wakil David Matthews (19:15.076)
Yeah, yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (19:19.792)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It turns out that all of those people we get to be with are teachers, In the end, yeah, all the teachers. Well, I'd love to hear more about what you're currently working with and the kind of work you're doing. So yeah, these stories are great. And if there's more you want to talk about that you're specifically working on now, is there any, you putting any books together?

Rabbi Rami (19:27.841)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (19:44.233)
I'm always putting books together. mean, that's writing is how I stay sane. My whole day is meditation, chanting, walking the dog, and writing stuff. So I don't have a job anymore. those are the things I get to do. So I'm always writing. And I have two.

Wakil David Matthews (19:50.596)
Yeah, yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (19:58.512)
Nice.

Annalouiza (19:59.692)
Gosh, I love that.

Rabbi Rami (20:14.009)
I focus on two things when I write. I'm not talking about my substack work. guess substack is how I get, I look at what's happening in the world and I go, So I write about it to get it out of my system. But, you know, I write about what I call perennial wisdom, which is, you know, the fourfold truth that all religions, I think, all the mystical systems point to, that everything is a manifesting of the one thing.

Wakil David Matthews (20:40.73)
Yes.

Rabbi Rami (20:44.033)
you and I and all beings can, human beings have the capacity to know that, to experience that, to awaken to that. Awakening brings you a sense of moral clarity. And I would say that's like the golden rule. And having that awakening and living the golden rule is the highest achievement you can have in your life. So that's perennial wisdom. And I write about that. And then I apply that to Judaism in what's called, what I call, one foot Judaism.

Wakil David Matthews (21:14.224)
Thanks

Rabbi Rami (21:14.389)
after a story in the Talmud, which is an anthology of rabbinic teachings from 2000 years ago, where a Roman soldier accosts a famous rabbi Hillel. And he says, teach me the entire Torah while I stand on one foot. And Hillel just says, what's hateful to you, don't do to anybody else. That's the entire Torah, the whole teaching of Judaism.

Wakil David Matthews (21:41.936)
Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (21:43.289)
says everything else is commentary. So I take him literally. And so my Judaism is the golden rule. And then all the traditions around it, all the rituals, all the holidays, I adapt them so that they serve to enhance my living of the golden rule. So I write about the Jewish part, and I write about the perennial part, and that sort of.

Wakil David Matthews (21:48.485)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (22:05.488)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (22:11.226)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me a little more, you would, the other, like the Zen and the Hindu practices that you were involved with earlier on, if you'd like.

Rabbi Rami (22:13.303)
That's my life at the moment.

Rabbi Rami (22:26.253)
Sure, sure. I stumbled on Zen. I read a book when I was in high school called by Christmas Humphreys called Zen Comes West. Christmas Humphreys was the head of the Buddhist Society, maybe it was called in England. Alan Watts was a kid and he was part of that with Christmas Humphreys. And Christmas Humphreys wrote this book, Zen Comes West.

And I don't know how I got a copy, but I got a copy and it just really blew me away. I was an Orthodox Jewish kid and I read this Zen book and I said, whoa, this is phenomenal. And I started practicing Zazen, Zen meditation from a book, which I don't know, I did the best I could. But when I was 16, I had two weird things happen to me. One was,

Wakil David Matthews (23:07.278)
Ha ha.

Rabbi Rami (23:27.897)
in the Zen end of my life. It was in the summer. I was visiting a friend for part of my summer break. And I was meditating alone. I was the only one interested in this Buddhist stuff. Everyone else was doing drugs. But I was drug-free and serious about my meditation practice. And I was meditating on a shore of a lake. And I don't know what happened because I wasn't there.

Wakil David Matthews (23:44.161)
haha

Rabbi Rami (23:57.529)
Rami disappeared. was that Thomas fell away. Rami fell away. And when I came back, I felt totally connected to everything. felt, I mean, you could say I felt love for and from the universe for about 13 seconds, you know, but that, but that was, that was my first experience about what contemplative practice can do for you.

Wakil David Matthews (24:00.272)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (24:20.963)
You

Rabbi Rami (24:28.217)
And then I took, you know, I went much more seriously into the Zen, into the Zen world with Suzuki Roshi, with my Zen master. But the same summer, or the same year, my 16th year, my mother came into my bedroom one night after midnight. And like I said, we were Orthodox, so this made sense to her when she came into my bedroom.

And I was the only person in my family that really read. And the books I read were on Judaism and Hinduism and Buddhism and all this stuff. She didn't understand it. My father didn't understand it. And she came in. I was reading. And she sat down on the edge of my bed. And in all seriousness, she asked me if I were the Messiah.

Wakil David Matthews (25:25.658)
Wow.

Rabbi Rami (25:25.817)
And I lied and said no. I told her no. Now if someone said that, I would have said, well, I'm God. And so are you. Don't worry about it, that kind of thing. But it was a traumatic experience with my mother. And we both wept. I don't even know what happened in that moment. But.

Wakil David Matthews (25:37.808)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (25:45.498)
Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (25:53.589)
But there was some transition going on in my 16th year that I was experiencing through meditation. She was seeing from the outside somehow, sensing. And this is how she verbalized it. And then I went more deeply into Zen. But the Hindu stuff also spoke to me because Hinduism and Judaism share

I mean, they both allow for deities. both allow for... There seems to be more of a... You can make the transition from one to the other. The transition or the playing with both of them is easier than with Buddhism, which is more... There's no real God to play with. You don't really need that in Buddhism. Whereas in Hinduism, you have Brahman, which is like the Aimsof, the endless infinite...

Wakil David Matthews (26:32.119)
Thanks

Rabbi Rami (26:49.401)
a formless reality in Judaism. So you have these theological things to play with. And I just love playing with theological concepts. But my practice, ultimately, though I do meditate, the silent meditation, my primary practice is chanting. I find that, I don't know, I was going to say easier. I don't know if the right word is. But I find that just.

I mean, I have a set of chants in Hebrew and a set of chants in Sanskrit. Some of the Sanskrit ones I do because when I was initiated into the Ramakrishna order, I promised. So I've been doing them daily for 12 years or more, whenever that was. But the Hebrew ones are ones that I learned from Reb Zalman's chapter Shalomim, my Rebbe on the Jewish side.

Wakil David Matthews (27:34.167)
Mm. Mm.

Rabbi Rami (27:49.675)
and just some that I came across in my studies of other Jewish mystical sages. And they just embedded themselves in my head. chanting is something that happens. It comes easily, but it happens almost by itself throughout the day.

Annalouiza (28:04.365)
with ease.

Annalouiza (28:08.962)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (28:09.208)
Yeah, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I like that. love chanting is one of my favorite things. We have Sufi practice where we do zikr and that's basically a chant practice and prayer, like movement prayer. There's also, we have a lot of people doing, we have Gina Salah. I don't know if you know Gina Salah, but she's our local person doing Hindu.

can't work with us. that's always, I love going to, in fact, we're doing one this week. So, yeah.

Rabbi Rami (28:43.619)
Well, so you know the power of chant. If you're doing zikr, there's different ways of doing zikr. the zikr that I've been, when I ran retreats, we had a Sufi sheikh as part of our team. And we always did zikr as part of the retreat. And the physical movement in the circle chanting, la ilaha illallah.

Wakil David Matthews (28:55.407)
Hmm.

Rabbi Rami (29:13.145)
You know over and over again it you know, I don't know Five minutes and you're already the room is shifting and your all consciousness is shifting Yeah, right, right. I mean there's I Don't I don't think it's The phrase itself, you know, I don't I don't think it matters what you say so much as the sound maybe

Wakil David Matthews (29:13.22)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (29:19.62)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (29:22.381)
like tap it.

Wakil David Matthews (29:40.89)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (29:41.545)
So there's a lot of sounds in the chanting that I do, even though they're different languages. So anyway, there's something transformative about the vibration.

Wakil David Matthews (29:44.442)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (29:50.672)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (29:56.462)
Yeah, exactly. And the gathering of the circle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it can be also by yourself. You can also get that same, I find anyway, that I get the same, not the same. It's a different experience by myself, but it's certainly that same kind of transcendental connection to, you know, I am nothing, know, neti neti and the...

Rabbi Rami (29:59.764)
yeah, the physical gathering and being in close and moving the body. Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (30:23.288)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (30:26.134)
And at the same time, I'm connected, I'm the manifestation of all and everything else is who. so that's, yeah, that's, I appreciate that. That's great.

Rabbi Rami (30:35.001)
Yeah, I mean every religion that says that and every religion misunderstands it, you know?

Wakil David Matthews (30:38.351)
Yeah.

Many of them, yeah.

Annalouiza (30:42.318)
Well, and also, I was, I studied with Black Hill for a while and learning Sufi until I was like, this is just another technology to, create the opening for me to connect to the divine. And yet like the words, the divine was like, yo, you, I'm right here. You know this, you don't have to do all these steps in order for you to open the door. And I remember like training for my Reiki master class, right? It's like, these are all just like light switches.

so that you can be the conduit. And I will go for my morning walks and be doing bird listening, tree watching, cloud delighting. And all of a sudden, it's like the wasifas will just flow out. And it's literally like it's that switch that just immediately goes, oh, we're in sacred space right now. It's different. let's end. Yeah, but it's a little switch.

Wakil David Matthews (31:12.272)
Thanks

Wakil David Matthews (31:35.652)
Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (31:35.799)
Yeah. And ultimately, there's no distinction between sacred and whatever the non-sacred is, right? It's just the whole thing is God. It's yin and yang. It's all part of the same supreme ultimate reality. But we make, yes, right, right, even the insanity. We divide these things up and then we say, this is good and this is bad and this is sacred and this is not sacred.

Annalouiza (31:42.744)
Right.

Wakil David Matthews (31:44.293)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (31:51.364)
Yeah, yeah, even the insanity.

Annalouiza (32:01.4)
Right.

Wakil David Matthews (32:01.69)
Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (32:04.685)
That's the human ego does that. That's just part of the madness.

Annalouiza (32:07.694)
Right. Well, you know, actually, I want to say, I think that the reason I just made that distinguish that sacred time is that when I do set out every morning and I check the trees to see which birds have been flying through. And so in that moment, I am using language to. Like, I'm not meditating, right? I am I'm thinking thoughts and and saying that is this, this is that. And then all of sudden, when things shift for me, it goes very quiet in my mind.

Wakil David Matthews (32:07.77)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (32:35.66)
The words, the language just falls away. And so I think for me that sacred time is that it's I'm suddenly in an open space so that it can flow both ways. And I'm not hindering it by judging it and creating a language or a storyline behind it. just is.

Wakil David Matthews (32:51.376)
Mm-hmm.

Rabbi Rami (32:51.769)
yeah, I understand that. And there's different qualities to the different experiences of you put that. I just meant that when you're naming the birds, that's also sacred when you're not naming the birds. There's a practice in Judaism from the Psalms. I think it's Psalm 116, but don't hold me to it. You're chanting.

Wakil David Matthews (33:03.792)
Yeah.

That's right.

Rabbi Rami (33:21.401)
Technically, it's shiviti, which means I place before me, and then the name of God, with negdi tamid, always. But the way I was taught to do it, because you can't pronounce the name of God, so the euphemism they put in place is the one adronai, which means Lord, which I can't say, because it's horrible. I can't. That's so wrong for me. But I have a deep connection to the Divine Mother.

Wakil David Matthews (33:44.888)
Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (33:51.223)
So a lot of times I'll experience the divine as the feminine. And so I was taught to say, shiviti shachina v'negdi tamit, which means I place the divine mother or I behold the divine mother before me always. And you want to be able to name the trees and name the birds and name the homeless guy. And it's not all one, it's actually.

Wakil David Matthews (33:51.332)
Mm.

Rabbi Rami (34:16.735)
Each is a unique manifestation of the Divine Mother and see the Mother as this thing or that thing and not have it all get erased in a cosmic tofu thing or something. Which is also fine. So everything is grist. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Right. It's all part of it.

Annalouiza (34:19.11)
divine. Yeah. it's beautiful.

Wakil David Matthews (34:20.815)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (34:31.886)
Yeah. It kind of looks over at like...

Annalouiza (34:36.782)
It's all okay and it's all different. It's all okay. It's all okay. It's a nobius strip of language.

Wakil David Matthews (34:46.244)
Hahaha.

Rabbi Rami (34:46.285)
Well, Mobius strip, yeah, I've got a Mobius strip over behind in front of me over here, because it's a great example. The Mobius strip is a great physical metaphor of what we're talking about.

Wakil David Matthews (34:49.808)
Ha ha ha.

Annalouiza (34:53.624)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (34:56.432)
Yeah, yeah, beautiful. Well, we're getting into the time we like to finish up, but we've got a couple things. We always like to ask, know, well, let's see, where are we? I think probably the ones that we most like to know more about is, is there anything that you, any practices that you have, you've kind of shared some already that kind of help you stay grounded, especially in the insanity that we're all working with right now. Anything that you can...

Share with us, it brings you back to presence and centeredness when some orange guy is pulling you off. Or your neighbor, even your dog.

Rabbi Rami (35:30.667)
Yeah, mean, yeah, but it's mostly the orange guy. But chanting, I mean, chanting is how I stay centered. So, you I chant in Hebrew or Sanskrit, but in those situations where I'm looking to center, I make conscious choices of which mantra

Annalouiza (35:34.83)
your neighbor.

Annalouiza (35:41.634)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (35:46.992)
Okay, yeah.

Rabbi Rami (36:00.377)
to choose. In Hebrew, one of the simplest ones is it's one word in Hebrew, but it's two in English. Ha-ra-cha-man. It means the compassionate one. It would be H-A-R-A-C-H-A-M-A-N. But it's all one thing. Ha-ra-cha-man. so you, and there's no music. It's just.

Harachaman, Harachaman, Harachaman. And when I do that, because I've been doing it a long time, my anxiety center, everything falls down, my breathing slows, I get more centered. And you're supposed to be able to then see the situation and the other and the people around you, whatever, through the eyes of compassion.

I mean, I have stories around that that I could share, but we're going to run out of time. But it always works. It's Pavlovian. mean, eventually these things become instilled in your head. And when they come up, they just work their magic on you. And it's not, OK, calm down, calm down. Or like that old Seinfeld episode, Serenity Now. It's not going to happen.

Annalouiza (37:05.474)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (37:07.941)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (37:15.086)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (37:18.67)
you

Wakil David Matthews (37:19.168)
Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (37:21.271)
But these techniques are very, powerful, and they can keep you grounded.

Wakil David Matthews (37:27.92)
Yeah, yeah.

I love that. I think it's, of course, the Arabic and the Hebrew is so different, So the Rahman is Arabic for the same thing. Yeah. Those are also one of the things we do in Zikr sometimes. And that's just mercy and compassion. So yeah, I love that. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (37:40.483)
Yeah, the same thing. Al-Rahman, Al-Rahim, yeah.

Annalouiza (37:54.115)
Yep.

Well, and what do you wish we had asked you today? What would you like to share with, how would you like to teach us? How would you to be impressed? Because you taught me all this. I'm like, I'm going to remember how to, how much.

Wakil David Matthews (38:02.666)
Haha. Haha.

Rabbi Rami (38:03.53)
Hahaha

Wakil David Matthews (38:08.544)
Yeah, I like that.

Rabbi Rami (38:08.601)
You could say it in the Arabic way. It's probably just the same thing. You know, I mean, what would I want to teach? I mean, I think we've talked about the things that matter to me.

There's a Yiddish phrase that summarizes my whole understanding of reality. it's, I don't know if you can hear it, but it's altz is got. Altz is like A-L-T-Z, second word is I-Z, and the third is capital G-O-T-T. Everything is God.

Annalouiza (38:42.391)
is

Rabbi Rami (38:52.565)
And that's how I see the world. That's how I understand the world. And it seems to me if we really knew that, that everything is Brahman, everything is Christ, everything is Krishna, everything is Allah, if we really understood that, would, you know, what St. Paul says in Philippians 2 somewhere,

He says, the mind that is in Christ be also in you. that's chanting does that. Meditation can do that. But what does it mean to have the mind of Christ or to realize Buddha nature or to realize Krishna consciousness or any of these things? It's to realize that you and everything else is the happening of the divine. And

Wakil David Matthews (39:43.096)
Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (39:45.945)
One of the things that, if you just indulge me for a second, one of the things that saddens me is that the Jewish tradition is so misunderstood by Jews, but also others. when, when, you know, and I don't believe any of this stuff is literally true. People wrote these books, but whoever wrote the third chapter of Exodus, where God reveals

the nature of deity to Moses, there are two words that are revealed. One is eh-heh, and the other is the unpronounceable yut-heh-vav-heh, y-h-v-h. That's literally unpronounceable. It's just four consonants. Both of them are verbs. They're the same verb, the verb to be or to happen. Eh-heh is the first person. It's the I am.

as a gerund, I am-ing, it's the I-ing of the universe. It's what Ramana Maharshi talks about in the Sargadatta Maharaj. It's the I am that Jesus referenced when he says in John, I am the way, the truth, and the life. So we think of Jesus saying, no, me, Jesus, I'm it, and I'm only it. But he's Jewish, and he's taking it from Exodus. And he's saying the I am is the way, the truth, and the life.

Wakil David Matthews (41:09.572)
Right.

Rabbi Rami (41:10.165)
And then the second is the third person of the same verb. And so when we talk about God, we're talking about a happening, something that's dynamic, something that's fluid. So the whole universe is the happening of deity, whether you understand it with form, without form, as mother, which is more comfortable with, or as father, which many people like. But anyway, however you deal with it, however you language it.

It's the happening of this divine energy. And you and I are that. And that's why it's, know, alt is God. Everything is the happening of this divine energy.

Wakil David Matthews (41:41.25)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (41:46.24)
is good.

Wakil David Matthews (41:46.32)
I love that. Yeah, yeah. That's usually how I translate la ilaha illa la when people ask me. There's nothing that isn't divine. Yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you. Well, we have this wonderful document that you sent to us, and we thought we would take turns reading it. Why don't you tell us a little about what inspired you to write it, and then we'll take turns reading.

Rabbi Rami (41:52.877)
Yeah, there's nothing other than God. Yeah. Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (42:03.862)
Alright.

Rabbi Rami (42:11.793)
So I got a phone call telling me that a beloved was dying and I had to do something. And I wrote this that turned out to be something that I didn't have to use in that specific case yet. But a lot of people found very, very helpful to read either to someone who's

Wakil David Matthews (42:37.125)
Yeah.

Rabbi Rami (42:41.987)
very close to death, or someone who's just died, or even I've heard people read it, funerals. But the idea is that there's still consciousness lingering even at that moment of transition where the 16-year-old says, I found it, that there's still consciousness there that you can address. Sort of like the Tibetan Book of the Dead, where you're reading to the soul that is eventually going to be, you know,

Wakil David Matthews (42:49.199)
Hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (43:01.008)
Alright.

Rabbi Rami (43:12.121)
return to the universe. So I wrote this to be read to that person. And the idea is to read it, it's not short, but it's not too long, but to really address it to the individual and then read it with that kind of concentration or that kind of tempo slowly.

Annalouiza (43:13.378)
be connected.

Wakil David Matthews (43:14.767)
Yeah, yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (43:38.968)
Well, I think it would be really beautiful and appropriate maybe if we read it slowly. It's like in the Christian world, call it Lectio Divinia, where you just spend time really with the words. And for our audience, we can share that. we'll have some way to find it, reference it to it, so they can have a copy of it. But maybe what we'll do is you could start on the first one, and then I'll go and then.

And then we'll just keep going back and forth and finish. That sound all right? All right.

Rabbi Rami (44:07.875)
Sure. Yeah, I'd be happy to.

Annalouiza (44:10.606)
Wait a second, so I'm coming in second?

Wakil David Matthews (44:12.986)
Sure, you come in second, I'll come in third. That's a good balance, yeah.

Rabbi Rami (44:18.945)
Listen, beloved, and yield to the truth of what is happening. Trust my words. Rest in my voice. Be still and know, All is God.

Annalouiza (44:32.79)
Listen, beloved, you are not only the smaller self with its sensing, feeling, thinking, and doing. You are also the greater self beyond all sensing, feeling, thinking, and doing. You are not only the name you carry, but the unnamed that carries you.

Wakil David Matthews (44:59.086)
Listen, beloved, you are to this world what a wave is to the ocean that waves it. A precious and never to be repeated happening of the one happening as all happening.

Rabbi Rami (45:16.503)
Listen, beloved, you are a way the one laughs and weeps and loves and suffers. You are a way the one knows itself as the many. You are a way the whole knows itself as each part. And soon you will be a way the part comes to know itself as the one. You are becoming what you have always been, the non-dual aliveness forever birthing and dying.

Annalouiza (45:47.352)
Listen, beloved, you have had many experiences in life. Some matched your desires, others did not. Some fulfilled your goals, others did not. Some upheld your values, others did not. Some brought you great joy, others brought you great suffering. These may arise in your mind as memories, reflections, yearnings, and regrets.

Do not cling to what arises, only acknowledge that you're rising. Say yes to what was without excuse or explanation.

Wakil David Matthews (46:28.72)
Listen, beloved, as you die, the faces of loved ones may come to you. Welcome each face with, love you. Do not cling, excuse, or explain. Without clinging, excuse, and explanation, there is only love.

Rabbi Rami (46:51.757)
Listen, beloved, as you die, the faces of those you may have hurt may come to you. Welcome each face with, am sorry. Do not cling, excuse, or explain. Without clinging, excuse, and explanation, there is only forgiveness.

Annalouiza (47:16.844)
Listen, beloved, as you die, the faces of those who may have hurt you may come to you. Welcome each face with I forgive you. Do not cling, excuse, or explain. Without clinging, excuse, and explanation, there is only peace.

Wakil David Matthews (47:41.904)
Listen, beloved, as you die you may begin to forget, but you will not be forgotten. You may begin to let go, but you will not be abandoned.

You may begin to drift, but you will never be set adrift. You are loved. I am here. You are not alone.

Rabbi Rami (48:11.533)
Listen, beloved, soon you may find yourself without moorings. This is because moorings are of the past and you are entering the eternal present. But you can still hear my voice. Attend to my voice. Trust my voice. Let my voice guide you.

Annalouiza (48:35.224)
Listen, beloved, you are yielding to the light. Allow the light to draw you closer. You may perceive the presence of others, some you know, some you don't. They are here to comfort you as I'm here to comfort you. Acknowledge them, feel their love and welcome their support, but do not cling to them. They are here to honor your dying, but they have no place in your death.

Let them come and let them go.

Wakil David Matthews (49:08.728)
Listen, beloved. The closer you get to the light, the lighter you will feel. You were a being. Now you are being itself. You were a mind. Now you are consciousness itself. You were happy and sad. Now you are only bliss.

Rabbi Rami (49:33.261)
Listen, beloved, my voice may be fading, my love is not. Let me release you with this prayer. May you be free from fear. May you be free from compulsion. May you be blessed with love. May you be blessed with peace. You were loved. You are loved. You are love.

Annalouiza (50:08.942)
Thank you so much for that.

Rabbi Rami (50:12.185)
Thank you for reading that with me.

Wakil David Matthews (50:15.182)
Yeah, wow, so beautiful. Well, yeah, I have to breathe a little bit. Thank you. Thank you so much. This has just been really profound and lovely and really wonderful to meet you, at least in two dimensions, one day maybe in three. And we will let you know when this goes live. It'll be an audio version, although there'll be some maybe some marketing that uses a video.

Generally, we post. Thank you. Yes, I should do that.

Annalouiza (50:46.12)
Do you want to stop the recording?

Hahaha.