Annalouiza (00:01.508)
Welcome, everyone. Thank you for joining us on today's episode, where we're looking forward to our conversation with Tim Ringgold. Tim is a board certified music therapist in Orange California, not Orange County. Is that Orange County as well? OK. In Orange California, Tim holds an additional certificate in hospice and palliative care music therapy.

Tim Ringgold (00:18.786)
Well, it is Orange County, but we just like to let people know that there's a city there.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:22.454)
That's good.

Annalouiza (00:30.84)
and has been facilitating grief retreat since 2007. His own grief journey includes a loss of his five best friends, his dad, one of his daughters, and most recently, his stepdad. So Tim knows firsthand what it's like walking the road to recovery from grief.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:52.266)
Yeah, welcome Tim. Glad to have you. Tim is also the author of the book, Sonic Recovery, Harness the Power of Music to Stay Sober. He's provided music therapy to thousands of teens and adults in residential treatment and as a sought after international speaker, having shared the stage with some of the top minds on the subject of music, the brain and personal growth, including Tony Robbins. Tim was the first person to give a TEDx talk on music therapy in 2012.

and is a former regional president of the American Music Therapy Association, which is probably where I heard from you because my wife is also a music therapist. And so I think she's the one who recommended calling you. So glad to have you and thank you for all your good work. Yeah, we always begin by just setting the stage a little bit. When did you first become aware of death?

Annalouiza (01:27.759)
Ha ha.

Annalouiza (01:35.472)
Yes.

Tim Ringgold (01:36.334)
Thanks so much for having me today.

Tim Ringgold (01:44.27)
Gosh, the very first time I became aware of death was when my best friend, who was my dog, Lady, when Lady went to the vet and when my brother got out of the car and he was holding her collar and she wasn't there. And in that moment, I recognized that Lady was gone.

And luckily I was in my mom's arms and I just sobbed into her arms because she was genuinely my best friend. that was maybe, you know, nine, 10 year old boy, a boy and his dog. Classic, classic tale.

Annalouiza (02:26.384)
Hmm. Hmm. It does. you know, so many oftentimes people's first recollections are grandparents or, you know, pets. And then that begins the whole awareness throughout our lives around how what happens, you know, with where people were kin. So how has death impacted the story of your life?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:28.118)
Hmm. yeah.

Thank you. It touches the heart for sure.

Tim Ringgold (02:54.966)
man, it's a through line that I joke that I have a grief resume, right? Like a CV, you know? And my CV includes da, da, da, da, da, and you listed off some of them because I keep them in my bio just because I want people to know, you know, that this isn't theory for me.

Annalouiza (03:03.344)
Wow.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:03.606)
Yeah, we know that.

Annalouiza (03:18.724)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (03:19.586)
I didn't study it in school. mean, I did study in school, but I lived it way beforehand. And so it's been kind of one of those pieces of life that if I could have raised my hand and said, ooh, ooh, ooh, I'll skip that. I would have, you know, and yet, right, we don't get that opportunity. And what I can say about it is as I'm sitting here talking to you,

Annalouiza (03:24.624)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:36.47)
Yeah.

Tim Ringgold (03:49.098)
funerals are flashing before my eyes. I was raised Catholic and the funeral is a tradition in our faith. Then going to the grave and the whole process of the ritual of that. I can just see all these different moments throughout my life and they are some of the most important moments of my life because that was when shit got real.

Annalouiza (03:59.633)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:12.374)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:16.064)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (04:16.12)
That's right.

Tim Ringgold (04:17.515)
Like everything else was just catnip and distraction. You know, like just like first world problems, you know, like, but, you know, the moments of, of being graveside and the moments of being in, churches with caskets were just like, okay. This is really important. This is really foundational and pay attention.

Annalouiza (04:23.482)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:24.383)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (04:27.066)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (04:39.502)
Mm-hmm

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:47.136)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I notice when I've had loved ones die that there's a shift in your consciousness, I think, that happens because suddenly all these other things going on seem so petty and stupid and how can somebody even be driving or what are they watching a television show for? Don't they know that my mom just died? What the hell? Life is not the same anymore. So yeah, I hear that. That's such a well put. Thank you.

Annalouiza (04:47.248)
Bye. Oof.

Tim Ringgold (04:59.809)
Totally.

Annalouiza (05:04.912)
Hmm.

Tim Ringgold (05:07.476)
Yep, 100%.

Annalouiza (05:07.866)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:14.912)
So tell us about what you're doing currently, what your work is now. And you talked about palliative care, hospice, music therapy. That's interesting. And I'd like to know more about your book as well.

Tim Ringgold (05:25.581)
Yeah. My company today is called Sonic Divinity. And for me, music has always been the sound of God and has been a direct connection to God throughout my life. And I've had some real mountain top moments with God and music. When I was 16, I was blessed to sing a spiritual in St. Peter's Square for Pope John Paul II during Holy Week. It was my choir.

Annalouiza (05:49.104)
Mmm. wow. That's pretty good.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:50.71)
Cool.

Tim Ringgold (05:54.88)
It was pretty cool. And there were 13,000 Catholic pilgrims from all around the world there in St. Peter's square. And then I could hear my voice echoing around the colonnades. And that connection between me and God was just like, so amazing. but the flip side was that it w I also had that experience in probably the one of two of the worst experiences of my life. First one coming was,

Annalouiza (06:03.738)
Mmm. Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:05.078)
Mm.

Tim Ringgold (06:23.041)
the death of my dad and Enya was playing in the room. I mean, not Enya personally, I don't know her that well, but a cassette, this is I'm dating myself kids, what's a cassette? A cassette was playing of Enya in the room with my dad. My dad died at home in hospice and it was like having the sound of angels in the room. And I was just like, man.

Annalouiza (06:27.908)
Mm-hmm.

huh.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:36.032)
Yeah

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:46.678)
you

Annalouiza (06:49.572)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (06:50.143)
If I could be the soundtrack of someone's transformation from life to afterlife, like that would be the highest use of my gifts as a musician. So that was really a very, very powerful formative experience. Two years prior to that, my five best friends had been murdered and I went to five funerals in four days. I, and I can't, I can't really describe what that's like other than to just say, I would get up, bury a friend.

Annalouiza (06:54.83)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:58.646)
Mm.

Annalouiza (06:59.49)
wow.

Annalouiza (07:06.66)
Mmm.

Ugh. Wow.

Tim Ringgold (07:17.665)
get as hammered as possible to numb the pain, pass out, and then get up and have to do the whole thing over again the next day, then to the next day, and then the next day. I mean, it was just beyond. And I sang a song at their funerals as my way of saying goodbye. was a song I had written about them and used to sing to them and at the saloon on open mic night. You can tell I come from a small town. We really did have the Georgetown saloon.

Annalouiza (07:36.378)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:41.302)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:45.622)
You

Tim Ringgold (07:46.942)
And when I sang that song, it tore me up, but my community was like, this is so healing. Thank you so much. I really didn't know what they were talking about, but I took their word for it. But the night of the last funeral, one of my one remaining friend, we went to a live concert. And for the first two hours since I had gotten the news, I found peace.

Annalouiza (07:51.854)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:08.096)
Hmm. Hmm.

Tim Ringgold (08:09.877)
And no amount of drugs, alcohol, cable, porn, food numbed that pain that week. And I tried everything, but the music worked. And I was just like, this is what everyone was talking about. I get it now. And so it just kind of created this mission, which was to be able to provide music in people's toughest moments to help them through.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:14.006)
You

Annalouiza (08:14.494)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:17.078)
Ha

Yeah.

Annalouiza (08:19.94)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (08:24.96)
Ugh, yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:25.231)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:36.758)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (08:38.241)
their toughest times. And I didn't know what that would look like as a business or anything like that. just had, that was the vision, that was the purpose, that was my Dharma. And then that would get expressed in multiple ways, you know, throughout my career. that's when I was in a heavy metal band. I wasn't even, I didn't even know music therapy was a thing. And you know, till, you know, many years later, when I went back to school in my thirties full time for five years to become a board certified music therapist. And now

Annalouiza (08:45.54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (08:51.376)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:56.064)
Haha.

Annalouiza (08:58.458)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:58.646)
Mmm.

Tim Ringgold (09:07.693)
My company, we work with teens and adults working at struggling with addiction issues and mental health issues. But I also run multiple retreats per year in the Southwest here and have a music based approach to grief. And that journey has just been some of the most rewarding work I've done because my journey through grief, I'm in recovery from addiction. I'm in recovery from grief.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:24.075)
Mmm.

Annalouiza (09:27.918)
Mmm.

Annalouiza (09:35.406)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:35.638)
you

Tim Ringgold (09:36.055)
Those are two of the heaviest chains you can wear around your neck that I've experienced in my lifetime. So to be able to minister to others through music in those two difficult chapters is just incredibly rewarding.

Annalouiza (09:41.486)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:51.456)
Wow, yeah, so beautiful. Thank you. So glad you're doing that work, so important.

Annalouiza (09:52.176)
It's... it's

Tim Ringgold (09:53.559)
Thank you.

Tim Ringgold (09:57.111)
Thanks.

Annalouiza (09:58.073)
It isn't what I really, it appeals to me is that, oftentimes we hear about like end of life musicians at the bedside of somebody passing and it's very like ethereal. And I love Enya showing up for your dad. my sister had Neil Diamond playing, you know, it's less as she wrote it down. She's like, want Neil Diamond playing 24 seven as I'm dying. And, and what I love is it does encapsulate that.

Tim Ringgold (10:14.335)
Love it. Yes.

Mm. Brilliant.

Annalouiza (10:27.12)
transition for both the person who is passing and for the family who is ensconced in this moment. But those piece that Enya will always be that sweet angelic music for you and Neil Diamond. I swear to you, when I hear Neil Diamond, I'm like, hey sister, because what else are you going to say? Right? Like, oh yeah, there you are. Hey, what's going on? So I appreciate that our listeners can dream of even some heavy metal.

Tim Ringgold (10:35.499)
Totally.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:41.75)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (10:46.549)
Yes. Yes.

Annalouiza (10:56.804)
Like, you know, I just went to go see glass animals last week and I would have glass animals playing as I passed like full stop. So anyhow.

Tim Ringgold (10:57.387)
Yeah.

Tim Ringgold (11:03.561)
Absolutely. In music therapy, we say the patient is the DJ.

Annalouiza (11:08.514)
Yes, I, you know, so yes, so, you know, it doesn't matter. mean, people can have a heart if they want to, but it's not the only choice. So what are the challenges that you find in this amazing gift that you are sewing out in the world?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:08.756)
Right? Yeah, that makes sense.

Tim Ringgold (11:17.633)
That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:17.792)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tim Ringgold (11:26.573)
The biggest challenge I would say is people's ability to raise their hand for help in and around experiencing grief because of two reasons. One, it's so debilitating physically, cognitively, and emotionally, so they don't have their own internal resources to summon, to activate, to go get help.

Annalouiza (11:35.065)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:35.168)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (11:46.288)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (11:55.716)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (11:56.418)
it's one thing when you're pissed off about something, anger is very motivating and very mobilizing, but sadness and grief is immobilizing. So it's very hard to get people to engage in their own recovery. The second thing is an external issue, which is our culture's mismanagement of death and grief, because people don't know what to expect. What's normal when it comes to grief and they don't.

Annalouiza (12:04.111)
Yep.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:04.832)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (12:18.999)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (12:23.13)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (12:25.567)
know how to companion another person who is grieving. So we just get a collective F- as a culture when it comes to preparing ourselves and each other for how to walk through grief and that it can heal. It leaves scars but it can heal and there are some fundamental myths in our culture that just make it so much harder on everybody than it needs to be.

Annalouiza (12:30.714)
Right, right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:35.648)
Hehehe.

Annalouiza (12:36.388)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (12:52.976)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:54.038)
So true. Yeah. Yeah. And that's one of the goals of our podcast is to get this word out and get people talking about it. So I'm so glad that you're doing that work. You know, you're talking about music earlier. There was a guest who told us that they were visited by their husband after he died and told that music is what lasts after death. And I thought that's kind of awesome. You know, because yeah. So yeah, thank you.

Annalouiza (13:03.342)
Yeah.

Tim Ringgold (13:13.421)
Hmm

Annalouiza (13:16.26)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (13:16.918)
I like hearing that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:22.774)
Something else occurred to me a minute ago. So edit this, edit this. Yeah, go ahead.

Annalouiza (13:26.768)
Well, and I just want to jump in here too and talk about the challenges around our F minus of caregiving folks, you know, going through their grief cycle. And, you know, I see this, we see this all the time, right? People are stunted with the language and the ability to open their hearts and, and move through this. And just as you talk about your, your first, you know, awareness of death with your lady dog friend.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:47.627)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (13:55.729)
You know, I just, you know, I see kids who struggle with this and parents are just like, Oh, you know, it's, know, like, let's get past this quickly. And, know, it's so harrowing to not, you know, engage in these families and say, I'll sit here with you if you want, and we can just talk about your friend, you know, and I don't care how long it takes. Like, it's okay. Like I value your stories about your friend.

Tim Ringgold (14:18.41)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (14:23.148)
Yes.

Annalouiza (14:23.36)
And it feels so uncomfortable for people. I'm still like, I don't understand why. I'm like, what?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:29.302)
yeah.

Tim Ringgold (14:29.835)
Yeah, I think about this a lot. And one of the things is if I have unresolved grief in my nervous system, your grief triggers mine.

Annalouiza (14:33.168)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (14:42.456)
Yes.

Tim Ringgold (14:44.369)
So it's very hard for me to be with you because I've been spending my entire life avoiding my own grief. So why would I want to be around you when you're triggering mine and I don't want to be around mine? Now, nobody's thinking that logically or consciously, but that's the nervous system keeping us away from what we would feel is danger.

Annalouiza (14:49.84)
It's like, right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:52.278)
All

Annalouiza (14:56.741)
Right, right, right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:58.506)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (15:06.606)
Right.

It's like we've been holding back that dam of grief. so we, you know, it's like that little hole. It'll push.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:09.344)
Yeah.

Tim Ringgold (15:15.157)
yeah, 100%. Yep, yep. And time does not heal grief, it just buries it. And you know this because when a song comes on and suddenly you go from normal to sobbing, that's your unresolved grief getting picked at like a scab.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:17.386)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Annalouiza (15:22.404)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:22.548)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

All right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:30.911)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. The name of that book, The Body Knows the Score, know, or keeps the score. Yeah, the body keeps the score. And that's so true. And I loved what you said, too, about the because it's one thing, Wendy, my wife has spoken to many times is that different people have different music that are good. You know, people assume that playing Beethoven for somebody is going to be perfect. And some people just do not like Beethoven, you know. And there is a sort of sense that, you know.

Tim Ringgold (15:38.111)
Yes, yes, the body keeps the score. That's right. Yes. Yeah, absolutely true.

Annalouiza (15:38.33)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (15:58.213)
Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

Tim Ringgold (15:58.348)
Yeah, 100%. 100%.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:02.73)
that of course, as a music therapist, you and she run into often that, you know, if we can play this kind of music, it'll help. we don't know until you've spent time really getting to know a person and asking the right questions and knowing the right questions, what is going to be something that will be a blessing for them. that, you know, again, reason is, the reason this is important as we talk about it here in this context is that you as a human being who's going to die have, have an opportunity now

Tim Ringgold (16:13.517)
That's right.

Annalouiza (16:21.2)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:32.896)
to really think about what is it that you would like to playing when you're dying or after you die. And yeah, would you just like, yeah, silence. Silence is not a bad idea sometimes. Or prayer or poems or whatever, know. Even dance, you know. So whatever is going to lift you up in those times is important to make sure everybody knows. Make sure your family and your loved ones know.

Annalouiza (16:35.866)
Yes.

Tim Ringgold (16:37.677)
That's right.

Annalouiza (16:38.81)
Or you might want to be quiet too. Like there's you have agency. You decide. Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Ringgold (16:42.283)
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Yep.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:01.226)
So thank you. Thank you for doing that work. I'd love to hear a little more about what happens in retreats, if you could tell us that.

Tim Ringgold (17:07.255)
Sure. So when I was a music therapy student, my mom, who's a retired therapist and another retired therapist were facilitating this grief retreat at the Franciscan Renewal Center in Phoenix, Arizona. And she said, hey, do you want to come out and do a segment on how to use music to heal grief? I said, sure, I'd love to. My mom and I are super tight. What a great excuse. We get to work professionally together. Awesome.

And then I said, what are you doing for music for the whole retreat? And she's like, well, we've got this boom box. Oh my God, mom, okay, so what are you doing for PowerPoint? Well, we've got this overhead projector. Now this is 2007, but it might as well been 1987, right? And so I was like, oh my gosh, I'll take care of both. And we had a great time and her and her partner were like, you can never leave.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:40.918)
You

Annalouiza (17:47.888)
Ugh.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:53.247)
You

Annalouiza (18:02.958)
haha

Tim Ringgold (18:03.917)
So I joined the team and twice a year, every year till COVID, would, the three of us would facilitate these retreats. I took about two years off when my daughter died to do my own grieving before coming back to lead that. And now I lead them on my own and it's three days. It's Friday night, all day, Saturday, Sunday morning. And like I said, it's a music-based approach where we use music to create community, to create connection.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:19.744)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (18:31.565)
to create present moment awareness and really being in the present moment. That's really hard for humans in the 21st century. And so if you can give them a play-based tool that they know, love and trust that helps them stay present and allows them to open up and tap into their feelings without having to necessarily talk about their feelings, it's a great tool.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:40.182)
Yes. Yeah.

Annalouiza (18:41.186)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:56.63)
Mmm.

Tim Ringgold (18:59.297)
because it creates community and it creates connection. creates this, this opportunity for expression. words are a great tool. It's just that we live in a hyper verbal talk centered clinical culture where everybody thinks if you talk about it, you'll feel better, but that is based on three problems. One, you know what to say to you feel like saying it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:59.382)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:08.918)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (19:12.782)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (19:18.362)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:18.539)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:25.119)
Mm-hmm.

Hehehe.

Tim Ringgold (19:27.861)
And three, you have someone to say it to who can keep their mouth shut.

Annalouiza (19:31.994)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:32.19)
Right? That you can trust. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard.

Tim Ringgold (19:33.782)
Yeah, good luck because humans are terrible listeners. We take it personally. We project our own issues onto the situation. We misinterpret what someone's saying. We get activated or reactivated because of what they're saying. Like we give advice, we give platitudes, we try to rescue. So what we're really bad at in our culture is just holding space. So

Annalouiza (19:38.148)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (19:44.004)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:51.926)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (19:52.122)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (20:00.037)
Right.

Tim Ringgold (20:01.771)
I mean, as a therapist, they put us through thousands of hours of clinical supervision. Any therapist has been through thousands of hours of clinical supervision before they were turned loose on the population because humans are so bad at listening.

Annalouiza (20:12.272)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:14.642)
Yeah, Yeah, we both went through spiritual direction seminary and that was the number one, really our main practices. How do you listen with compassion and openness and no fixing, no changing, no yeah. And thank God there are people doing that stuff and doing that work because you're right, it's a challenging thing for most people. So yeah. So is there anything that frightens you about the end of life yourself?

Annalouiza (20:23.374)
Yes.

Annalouiza (20:29.733)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (20:38.095)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (20:38.561)
Seems to be.

Tim Ringgold (20:45.467)
I would say.

Tim Ringgold (20:52.605)
I'm pretty sure that whatever day is my last day, there's more I will have want to have done.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:03.584)
Yeah.

Tim Ringgold (21:03.763)
So I'll be like, it's like when I was a kid and we'd be playing outside and you'd hear dinner and you to come inside for supper, right? And you're just like, okay. And then you come inside and then you eat a great meal and you're like, yeah, this is great. But do know, five minutes ago you were like, five more minutes. Like I'm gonna be the guy who's like five.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:12.916)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (21:14.158)
And you're like,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:17.396)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (21:22.416)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (21:30.0)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (21:32.966)
or minutes just because I am endlessly fascinated by this journey. And now that I have kids of my own, watching my kids grow, like my, have a daughter who's currently 19. I have a son who's about to turn 14 and I have a daughter who's in heaven. And so I know what it's like to have lost a child and to hear their heartbeat start and then hear their heartbeat stop. And like when my heartbeat stops,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:34.249)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (21:34.382)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (22:02.335)
and my kids are still around, like they're gonna keep living. And there's the part of me who wants to keep living with them in that same capacity. And there's part of me that knows I'll be able to participate or part of me that, yeah, I'll still be able to participate in some way, but it's gonna look differently. My physical presence is gonna be gone. They're not gonna hear my voice anymore. If I could have one thing back from my dad, it would be that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:11.616)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (22:11.652)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (22:20.496)
Right. Right. Right.

Tim Ringgold (22:29.261)
I have an audio or video of my dad. He died in 97 before iPhones. I have no audio or video of my dad. I don't hear his voice. You know, I don't see him in video and like, I wish I could still have that. So there's going to be that physical presence moment where I'm going to be like, man, I know I'm heading to something great, but I'm going to miss out on all this fun over here.

Annalouiza (22:32.538)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:32.902)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (22:40.879)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:51.966)
Yeah, yeah, so well put. Yeah, we often think that, we think and have heard that the one thing is, can I, will I be done yet? I'm not really done yet, you I've still got more, I've got more to give. Will I have accomplished what I really want to accomplish? So, you know, again, that's our daily task, right, to do our best and try to do everything we can to make the world better and the world around us better, so.

Annalouiza (22:52.058)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (23:04.463)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (23:06.54)
Yes.

Tim Ringgold (23:10.317)
100%.

Annalouiza (23:19.802)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:20.288)
especially when the world is going crazy, which it tends to be these days, or maybe always.

Tim Ringgold (23:24.226)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (23:28.08)
So as you're doing your best to live life to its fullest on those days that you find it a little hard, what do you do to keep yourself resourced?

Tim Ringgold (23:39.348)
that's a great question. nature, I get my feet off the concrete and barefoot into the grass as much as humanly possible. humans are meant to be outdoors. Our bodies are primed to be connected to the planet earth. There's very physiological reasons for this. we're not meant to be inside. Our nervous system is optimized for outdoors. So what typically happens is when life is occurring hard.

Annalouiza (23:43.632)
up.

Annalouiza (23:48.011)
Love it.

Annalouiza (23:54.584)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (24:09.057)
I'm indoors and I'm not present.

Annalouiza (24:11.748)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:11.862)
Mm-mm.

Tim Ringgold (24:13.249)
I'm in my head about something and the details don't matter. It's just wop wop wop wop wop wop, you know, and what I need to do is go outdoors and I need to get barefoot and I need to go walk in my grass and I need to go hang out for, and I do it several times a day because I get in my head all the time.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:14.666)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (24:20.846)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:25.604)
Yes.

Annalouiza (24:33.284)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:36.416)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:36.462)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (24:36.607)
And so the antidote is if I, if I want to get out of my head, I need to get out of my office and I need to go outside. And I'm very blessed that I live in Orange County, California, where the average temperature is 70 degrees and it's sunny 300 days a year. And I pay for that privilege. Trust me. But you know, you don't want to see my mortgage payment, but the point is that like this, this backdrop, that's my back hill. This is so even when I'm in my office and I'm on calls, I'm looking at my backyard.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:50.812)
You

Annalouiza (24:57.647)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (25:03.851)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:04.374)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (25:04.505)
for me, I grew up in the woods in nature and nature has always been, you know, the fast, fast track to grounding quite literally and metaphorically. And then the second thing is music, which may sound obvious coming from the music therapist, but we, as adults, we tend to trade our music in for podcasts and audio books and talk radio and news. And we forget to stay a fan.

Annalouiza (25:07.642)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:12.683)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:17.27)
you

Annalouiza (25:17.594)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:19.859)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (25:26.096)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (25:30.724)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:30.902)
Hehehehehe

Tim Ringgold (25:32.562)
And it's fascinating because it's like, I work with adults all the time who just, didn't have a falling out with music. It's not like they got in a fight. They just, they just forgot. It's just atrophy. It's like as a parent, like sometimes you lose track of your friends and it's not because of a fight. It's just cause you're busy raising your family and dealing with your career and dealing with your marriage. They're busy dealing with their family, career and marriage, and they may be in a different state. And before you know it, three years have gone by and

Annalouiza (25:42.382)
Yeah, this forgot to. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:42.431)
Ha ha.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (25:50.864)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (26:01.68)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (26:02.445)
What happened? Well, I found that same thing to be true with music for a lot of people. And so I try to keep it nearby and I try to be able to reach for it as I need it. And there's a couple of things I advocate for people and it's simple to do, but I call it your power playlist. Your power playlist is just three or more songs that fire you up, calm you down, center you. And when you're feeling disconnected, you know, you're 10 to 20 seconds away.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:07.35)
Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:20.086)
Mm.

Annalouiza (26:20.133)
Yep.

Annalouiza (26:29.85)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (26:30.101)
from the first track playing if you just remember you have it and you know to reach for it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:34.87)
Great idea. Yeah, what a good advice for anybody.

Annalouiza (26:38.816)
I love that. And I'm going to tell you, my kids are like, mom, you're old, but you're always listening to new music. Like, I am like always keeping up because I, it is a huge problem. And you know, it's like, yeah, I go to all, and I have tickets to a show in October and my daughter's like, you know, you're going to show up with a bunch of like 16 year olds. like, I don't care. Matt Maltese, man, he rocks my world. Like whatever. but I do appreciate that because you're right. Like,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:46.006)
You

Tim Ringgold (26:48.641)
That's a huge compliment.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:49.96)
Yeah, it is.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:59.702)
You

Tim Ringgold (27:02.945)
There you go.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:03.072)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (27:08.238)
I get tired of listening to podcasts and then I get sued. Like I have my, my heavy metal that I love to listen to. And I'm just like, I just need to just like, like push back a little static X time. and, but we, but adults definitely don't, they ended up doing cool jazz or something. I don't know what they're listening to, but I'm like, God, you're so old. Like, we can't. No, but listen, but Wacky you play music.

Tim Ringgold (27:14.253)
Thanks.

Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:20.692)
Hahaha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:28.192)
Hey, hey, hey, now be careful here.

Annalouiza (27:37.201)
You sing to me all the time. Like when we were in seminary, you always had songs. And so that is a very different from like mindlessly just like flipping a switch to an old like eighties, you know, elevator music. That's like kind of whatever, but yeah. But no, Wacky, that is not you. I, you are a music, you are, you have music in your vein. I don't.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:51.872)
Yeah, kind of elevator music, yeah.

Tim Ringgold (27:53.613)
can.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:00.672)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (28:01.54)
But I do think that is a really great, I actually want to think about that as a spiritual tool too, because it is important and adults do forget except for, hey, no shade on jazz. I love jazz too. No, no, no, no, no. I just think that it's interesting that as the older you get, the less open you are to different kinds of things. Just throwing it out there.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:07.318)
Yeah. Yeah. But I do like jazz.

Tim Ringgold (28:15.787)
Yes, yes, we are not here to throw shade at any genre or style of music.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:25.385)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I might.

Tim Ringgold (28:28.951)
Yeah, no, that seems to be the case. what I experience is that most people go through kind of like a high tide of music from when they're about 14 to 24. In your adolescence into your adulthood, as you're coming of age, what's the soundtrack? What's your soundtrack, your personal soundtrack of your identity? Because that's what you're forming during that time. And since you're a human, you're a social animal. So you're forming that identity inside of a group.

Annalouiza (28:37.518)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:46.154)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (28:46.19)
Right.

Annalouiza (28:53.818)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (28:58.512)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (28:58.821)
And because our society is so big now, it's too big to just say I'm just a member of the human race. Like you need to be part of a smaller tribe. So you start to find your tribe through the energy of the music that you resonate with, right? So that you got the rockers and you got the punkers and you got the stoners, right? And you got the people like different style and they find their people in that music. But what's interesting is it seems like...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:05.728)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:15.676)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:21.61)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (29:25.555)
once we level off into our mid-20s, we've kind of decided who we are, what our styles and preferences are. By and large, the bell curve experiences, people tend to stay with what that was and they stay with the artists they discovered during that time. That's the bell curve. Now that doesn't mean people are outside of the bell curve, right? They're outliers, but the bell curve is this is my music, these are my people.

Annalouiza (29:37.924)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

That's true. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:42.998)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah.

Annalouiza (29:47.736)
Right. Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:48.084)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (29:52.57)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (29:52.799)
and I'm going to keep listening to it. And that's the soundtrack of my road right now.

Annalouiza (29:56.612)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:58.708)
Yeah, yeah. I think it helps to have kids, that's been my... The kids will introduce me to new music that I'm... Yeah, right? And most of time I like what they have, so... Sometimes I'm not sure what that is, but...

Tim Ringgold (30:01.42)
Yes.

Whether you like it or not, you're going to get introduced to new music because of your kids. Yeah.

Annalouiza (30:04.802)
Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Ringgold (30:13.868)
fair.

Annalouiza (30:13.944)
Yeah. Or all the years of cartoon watching. I love Steven Universe. And yesterday, as I sat in the car waiting for my daughter, I played the Steven Universe soundtrack because I'm like, you know, like I love that. I love that shit. OK, music.

Tim Ringgold (30:22.391)
That's adorable. Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:28.022)
that's so good.

Tim Ringgold (30:28.032)
Yep.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:34.042)
And well, wait a second. We want to make sure we ask you if there's anything we didn't ask you. Is there anything you wish we'd have asked you that you'd like to tell us before you give us a beautiful music?

Tim Ringgold (30:44.485)
yeah, you know, I think as we're talking about end of life conversations, and this will segue into the song. So.

Tim Ringgold (30:58.783)
Your faith, what you believe in, is a gift you give yourself. No one can tell you what to believe without your permission and no one can take away from you what you believe without your permission. It's like your faith is yours. You come to decide for yourself, this is what I believe in and this is what gives me the courage to get out of bed and face an unpredictable world.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:25.194)
Yeah.

Tim Ringgold (31:25.313)
This is what inspires me to be the best version of myself today while I'm awake. And this is what can calm my monkey mind enough to fall asleep at the end of the day. For me, that's the test of faith. Like if your faith can allow you to accomplish those three things, rinse and repeat, it's yours. It's no one else's. So maybe you inherited someone else's faith as you were growing up. That's fine. But you can explore what's true and what's right for you at any moment while you're still breathing.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:33.558)
Mm. Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:40.662)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:55.382)
So true.

Tim Ringgold (31:57.027)
And that's okay because I think that having a good glimpse and inquiry into what you think is going to happen when you stop breathing is going to inform the journey between breathing and not breathing. And I also believe it's going to inform what happens afterwards. That's my personal belief, but I think that taking the time to really be thinking through that for yourself and adopting what would comfort you the most.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:12.566)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:26.976)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Ringgold (32:27.25)
is transformative in the end of life journey. And it's also transformative in the grief journey for those who are still here. So I think it's not a sexy conversation, but it's a valuable life-changing and death-changing conversation to really start to sit in what do you think about. And when I was in my heavy metal band, guys, I wore liquid latex on stage. had

Annalouiza (32:49.68)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (32:54.852)
Wow!

Tim Ringgold (32:55.598)
I was like, no hair, no eyebrows for five years. And, and like at the same time, there was one day in like 1999 where I plugged my guitar into a new amp that I had just bought. It's a famous type of amp. And the tone that came out of the amp was so beautiful that a song came to me and came through me.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:58.717)
You

Tim Ringgold (33:22.614)
Now I don't write hymns and I don't write, at the time I was the guitarist, I wasn't a songwriter. But suddenly I was present to lyrics and I wrote them down and it was an entire, and it was not just a song, it was a hymn, which for a heavy metal guitarist, like that's totally incongruent. So, and then I signed and dated the piece of paper because I knew something special had just happened.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:22.762)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (33:41.412)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:41.782)
Right.

Annalouiza (33:47.952)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:48.022)
Thanks

Tim Ringgold (33:52.131)
I knew something special had just happened. This was not a normal day for me as a musician or as a person. And the song is called, His Love is Everlasting. Fast forward years later, I'm a music therapy student and one of our parishioners in my church, we get the phone call during service that they're taking him off life support. And I asked my pastor to call the family and say, can I come?

play for him and play for the family as they do that procedure, because it's kind of a rough procedure. And they said, yes. And so there I was in a hospital room playing this song, using the music to push the sounds of the life support machine and all the sounds that happen when you take someone off it out the door and replace it with melody and the neck. And it was just me, the family and the clinical staff. Like I was in this sacred

Annalouiza (34:38.789)
Hmm.

Tim Ringgold (34:47.31)
privileged place. And the next time I saw the mom, the wife, I hugged her and I said, thank you so much for letting me be part of such a sacred, special moment. And she goes, no, you don't understand your music. You are what made it sacred.

Annalouiza (35:04.686)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:04.694)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Ringgold (35:06.83)
And that was in 2004 when that happened. And I wrote the song in 1999, having no idea that my future self would be blessing somebody's transformation with that song. And here we are at the time of this recording in 2025.

Annalouiza (35:18.594)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:20.822)
Yeah.

Tim Ringgold (35:25.73)
where I get to share the same piece of music that was given to me in 1999 with a whole new group of people who I might never have met or never would have heard the song if it wasn't for the two of you inviting me onto your podcast. And I love the way God works.

Annalouiza (35:31.918)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:36.532)
Hmm. Hmm.

Annalouiza (35:41.22)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:41.232)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so beautiful. Thank you. Thank you to the Divine for bringing this to us. yeah, yeah. So please, yeah, share this song with us. We'd love to hear it and that'll be a great way to end and thank you again so much for joining us today.

Annalouiza (35:45.114)
Hmm.

Yes.

Tim Ringgold (35:50.06)
Yeah, fun moment.

Annalouiza (35:54.532)
Yes.

Annalouiza (35:59.941)
Yes, I'm delighted that you were joining us today.

Tim Ringgold (36:03.202)
Yeah, thanks again for having me. Okay, here we go.

Tim Ringgold (36:11.214)
you

Tim Ringgold (36:31.138)
When you feel God's light upon you Radiant beams they surround you

I'm you.

Tim Ringgold (36:48.802)
When you feel God's arms around you Safely and soft they enfold you

Tim Ringgold (37:06.594)
His love is everlasting Though at times you may feel afraid But his arms are always around you Leading you home when you've gone astray

Tim Ringgold (37:37.07)
When you feel God's love inside you Fire from within, it warms you

Tim Ringgold (37:54.732)
When you feel God's hand upon you, strength from his touch, feeds you.

Tim Ringgold (38:12.526)
His love is everlasting Though at times you may feel afraid But his arms are always around

Leading you home when you've gone astray.

Tim Ringgold (38:42.478)
When you feel God calling to you, listen and hear him guide you.

Tim Ringgold (38:59.598)
And when you see God all around you, you see all the people that love you.

And now you are home

Tim Ringgold (39:17.55)
His love is everlasting, though at times you may feel afraid. But his arms are always around you, leading you home when you've gone astray.

His love is everlasting, though at times you may feel afraid, but his arms are always around.

Leading you

Tim Ringgold (40:00.472)
Leading you home when you've gone astray