Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:03.075)
Hello everybody, I am the Reverend Wakil David Matthews, and we are so glad to have you here today on today's episode.

We are really looking forward to meeting Jess Wakefield, who is a certified funeral service practitioner or CFSP. Jess is a licensed funeral director, embalmer, celebrant, and end of life doula with over 15 years of service across the West Coast. We've really been impressed by her postings on Substack. And in fact, we used one of them with her permission in our last newsletter and may do that again.

Annalouiza (00:56.782)
Yes. Well, and I am the Reverent Mother Annalouiza Armendariz, and I am so delighted to have Jess be with us this morning. She is a director of operations and co-founder of Everest, a modern holistic funeral service company. She is the past president of the Washington State Funeral Directors Association, a certified funeral service practitioner and a recipient of the 2022 LW Tech Foundation Distinguished Alumni Award. Her work emphasizes compassion, transparency, environmental stewardship, and the sacredness of death care. Thank you so much for joining us today, Jess.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:39.831)
Yeah, so great. Really have been impressed by all the work you're doing. So we always like to kind of begin and get a feel for our guests by finding out more about when you first became aware of death.

Jess Wakefield (01:39.86)
Thanks for having me. Yeah.

with thank you.

Jess Wakefield (01:54.482)
Ooh, I was little. My first experience with death was I was probably in second or third grade and we had the unfortunate experience in our family where a small toddler in our family was hit by a car. And that was the first funeral I ever attended. Big Catholic Mass open casket adventures very much felt weird.

as a kid going to this because she was so young, most of us didn't really get a chance to know her, but the immediate family with her did. And so that was my first experience. And then it kind of just slowly snowballed from there. In high school, I lost a few friends. I mean, I'm part of the group that had a lot of fun in high school and some of us didn't make it through. Others did. And as that kind of

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:42.57)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (02:43.662)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (02:47.22)
When I first got to college, I wasn't even remotely looking into the idea of like working in this space at all. I was more looking into the environmental impact and like environmental science side of things because I wanted to save the planet. Because we all have that theory, right? Like we're going to save the planet. So I went and got a degree in environmental chemistry and just learned that I needed the people, not the science of it. And so.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:57.859)
Mm-hmm. Yay.

Annalouiza (03:00.77)
Yay!

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:04.088)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:11.821)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (03:12.334)
Hmm.

Jess Wakefield (03:13.424)
I went back to school and was looking at doing nursing of some kind. then through that process, I met someone who was running a funeral home and was, they kind of said, nah, you need to come with us over here. Come work with us over here. And so I made the change and fell in love. And in that process, I lost an aunt and uncle, a mother-in-law all within a few years. And...

Annalouiza (03:25.774)
Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:25.804)
well.

Annalouiza (03:38.754)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (03:39.49)
watching how each part of my family reacted to all of to the to death itself or the experience of going through the process of making arrangements celebrating life. We're so drastically different. Some completely shut down and we're like, Nope, we're just going to do the bare minimum and don't we don't want to talk about it. Like that's going to change the fact that the person's gone and others made it a big deal and we did huge celebrations for them. And so that was my moment where I was like,

Annalouiza (03:44.364)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (03:54.306)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:59.671)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (03:59.758)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (04:06.446)
Hmm.

Jess Wakefield (04:09.31)
Mm-mm. We can do better as humans in celebrating what is and what was and what will continue to be because we don't end when we end our experience here because we live on in the stories and the conversations of others. So it's a big part of what I try to push for is we don't we don't stop talking about people and we don't I don't ever when I'm working with families, I don't ever refer to them as was or

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:10.199)
Mm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (04:12.162)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:18.775)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (04:23.01)
Right. That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:24.535)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (04:28.6)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:31.405)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:36.611)
Hmm.

Jess Wakefield (04:37.348)
know, what was their name? No, what is their name? So for me, that's a big, big piece of that. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:39.905)
Yeah, yeah. that's a good idea. Yeah. Wow, that's great. I've had conversations like that too. I'm certainly going to change that of saying it from now on. Thank you.

Annalouiza (04:43.298)
Mm-hmm. Wow.

Annalouiza (04:50.958)
Yeah. And that's so funny too, because I think recently I did talk to somebody and I, and I use the present tense and I, I noticed that I did that and I, and then as I did that, I realized like, yeah, they're still here. And I just, it was very normal to just like, Hey, so, you know, yay, they're still here. Like, you know, no, tell me more. Right.

Jess Wakefield (04:52.253)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (04:58.398)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (05:06.515)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:09.367)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (05:10.736)
It's true, right? Like even if it's just in your heart or in like the conversation, it's still there's still an existence. Just because you cease to physically be here doesn't mean that your spirit and your energy is not here with us because energy doesn't end. It just changes, right? So yeah.

Annalouiza (05:16.334)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:17.559)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (05:20.398)
Right. Correct. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so Jess, you actually just answered my question, which was, tell us how death impacts the story. You very beautifully and succinctly gave us this trajectory of this initial second grade experience with a toddler's death to I wanted to bring more change, more humanity to the passing of people.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:22.817)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:31.477)
Yeah

Jess Wakefield (05:48.51)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (05:50.329)
Can you tell us, like, as you thought about it throughout your life, like, I hear you talking about we can do better, and they're not really gone. So is there anything else that you would like to tell us about that trajectory of your life to bring you to this moment?

Jess Wakefield (06:05.65)
Yeah, yeah, I guess a big piece of like my experiences having worked in funeral homes and seeing the transitions from old school, big services, usually religious based experiences that may or may not have spoken to people. And that's kind of why I think a lot of that's starting to shift and change to, I do find that we're much more becoming

Annalouiza (06:28.101)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (06:35.196)
a disposal industry in a way where like that direct cremation experience is, you know, we're doing it, a lot of families are doing it because of costs, which I totally, totally understand. But when we then don't do anything to celebrate that life or continue the conversation about how we want to honor them, it just becomes a transactional experience. That's the part that for me, I really hope to see more change in, because I'm not going to say that affordable cremation is not

Annalouiza (06:38.03)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (06:44.366)
Right. Right.

Annalouiza (06:50.124)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:55.959)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (07:04.605)
valid because it is, but we have to remember to do something other than bringing that urn home and sticking it in a shelf on a closet. We got to be continuing that conversation of, now what? Because we as funeral planners and funeral directors, we don't have to be involved in every part of that process, but it's super important to us that you do something to continue.

Annalouiza (07:06.434)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:12.044)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (07:12.163)
Right.

Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:15.96)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:24.909)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (07:24.993)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (07:26.526)
the of grief, the healing process of celebrating as well. Because when we celebrate lives and we talk about them, it does assist us with that healing process in the grief as well.

Annalouiza (07:31.701)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:38.21)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (07:38.223)
That's right. So it's actually really curious because I have been to celebrations of life where that earn is actually, you know, right smack in the middle of the room and everybody is talking about the person. But it's never. But I have heard stories of people who do tuck those urns into the back of the closet waiting for. You know, I'm not exactly sure. But so so does the funeral industry have conversations with people like.

Jess Wakefield (07:48.253)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (07:56.542)
Yep. Something.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:00.319)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (08:07.022)
Here's you'll get your crew mains and then you can choose to do XYZ. Excuse me, sorry.

Jess Wakefield (08:07.08)
Mm.

Jess Wakefield (08:12.808)
I would love to say, bless you, I would love to say that most of us do, but it's hard to know that for a fact because each individual that's working with families has a different way of doing things. I've always asked the question of like, what's the plan? Like, what are we doing? Are we scattering? Are we, I try to plant some ideas. Are we placing in a cemetery? Are we scattering? Are we?

Annalouiza (08:26.434)
Mm-hmm

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Jess Wakefield (08:36.69)
Are go to the forest? Are we gonna go to the beach? What are we doing? Because I think it's super important that we do something in some way. If it's in the garden, great. Whatever it is, make sure you're something.

Annalouiza (08:40.119)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:44.407)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (08:44.748)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:48.707)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (08:49.239)
Yeah.

I think some people are scared, right? Of doing it wrong. yeah, I just found that our friend discovered that were multiple urns in the back of his wife's closet. And, you know, was like, what happened? Why are we, why are they all here? And, and I think part of it, you know, it is like this tear of like not getting it right. So it's really, that's another part of the conversations, right? That we need to encourage people. Like it's all going to be right. It's right.

Jess Wakefield (08:54.568)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:55.618)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:04.343)
Well...

Jess Wakefield (09:05.162)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:08.052)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (09:10.463)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (09:19.38)
Here's the news flash, right? Like here's the news flash though, right? Like if it means something to you, it is not wrong. Like, and I feel the same way about funeral services. Like one of my least favorite things when families come in is they go, well, what's normal? What is everybody else doing? And I'm like, mm, we're gonna stop you there. What's important to you is what really matters. And so I think that that's something that we all need to think about.

Annalouiza (09:27.402)
Exactly. Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:27.436)
Hmm, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:32.311)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (09:32.502)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:37.315)
Yeah, that doesn't matter at all.

Annalouiza (09:37.39)
Ugh, no.

Annalouiza (09:43.592)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:44.621)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (09:48.174)
as we're coming to that end of life phase as well, or even if we're not, you know, I have this conversation with my family a lot. I'm like, you guys better be laughing and singing and dancing and crying all at the same time at my funeral. Like that's just the way it's got to be. You know, like you're going to you're going to play videos of me being a total weirdo and then you're also going to be sad. But I think that there's some celebration in that of moving on to the next adventure. So I don't for me. I don't love the idea of not having a plan. So

Annalouiza (09:52.546)
Right.

Annalouiza (09:57.399)
Right, right, right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:58.807)
Hahaha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:10.539)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (10:10.679)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (10:18.122)
I always try to convince other people to like have this conversation, even if it's awkward. And I find that like most people struggle to talk about their family members, but they will definitely tell you what they want. And so I've kind of started making it more about, okay, let's talk about you. Now, how do you think your parents would feel about that? And that's where you start to get the idea of like how their parents would probably want themselves celebrated because if they're

Annalouiza (10:21.408)
Right, right.

Annalouiza (10:32.108)
That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:39.619)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (10:39.725)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:45.804)
Jess Wakefield (10:46.228)
against what you think you would want for yourself, maybe that's the direction you want to lean for them, right? So it's like reverse psychology kind of at work, right? So I very much try to kind of through conversation, find out the best route for them and their family. But I don't know that every funeral director out there really takes the time or knows to

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:51.885)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (10:53.944)
I love that. It's funny. Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:56.771)
That's great.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:05.891)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (11:15.208)
dive that deeply into, okay, what are we doing post-disposition? Because a lot of funeral directors probably are like, okay, well, you're cremating and you're gonna do whatever your family is gonna do, but I don't know that they're all thinking, hmm, they might not have a plan.

Annalouiza (11:17.454)
right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:19.297)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:29.097)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. I love that you're expanding that whole idea and I hope people are paying attention. I love that that's kind of your ministry, your mission, if you will, in the work you're doing on Substack and to really kind of raise that awareness that people can do this differently and that, and I think what's important for our audience is to have that expectation that the funeral people that they're working with

Annalouiza (11:38.542)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (11:48.948)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:57.537)
should be doing this in a better way and that now they know what they should expect maybe.

Annalouiza (12:00.514)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (12:03.476)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (12:03.542)
Yeah. Well, in the very big, broadest picture of our collective ministry is that we want people to have conversations, you know, with each other, with the funeral. So maybe some funeral directors are not going to be comfortable talking about what to do with the crew mains. But you might show up and be like, hey, what can I do? Where can I go? Will you host a crew main party? Like, what are we doing? So, you know, I hope it's all about just, you know, being comfortable.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:11.787)
Yeah, absolutely.

Jess Wakefield (12:11.998)
Yes.

Jess Wakefield (12:24.222)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:26.327)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (12:27.112)
Yeah, right, yeah.

Annalouiza (12:32.482)
maybe even being uncomfortable in that moment, but still showing up and doing it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:34.295)
Yeah, Exactly, yeah. And that kind of leads into the next part of the conversation that we like to ask about your work and more about your work. mean, part of what I'm seeing in the podcast, I don't know, I guess the blogs that you're doing, whatever you're calling them, and every day, and wow, that just blows me away. Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (12:56.81)
My backlog of knowledge dumping.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:01.439)
Yeah, so beautiful and such wonderful stuff is this kind of sense of let's do this differently and how can we support each other, especially I love that part too. So maybe talk more about what your vision and hope for is for the future and what the work you're doing to push that vision.

Jess Wakefield (13:07.615)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (13:15.24)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (13:19.526)
Yeah, so a big part of this started for me back when I was doing more research about the history of funeral service in general, and learning that it became an industrious industry item with the change of like the Industrial Revolution and like the licensing requirements and then shifting everything over to be more male dominated businesses because women can't be licensed, can't be paid, you know, like we can't hold jobs, what? So

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:43.907)
Mm-hmm.

Heh.

Annalouiza (13:46.786)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (13:47.998)
We kind of, feel like as I was looking through the history of this and like how it was such a female dominated business of like caretaking almost as it just like we do with death doulas and that same or death doulas and birth doulas same concept, right? So as we transitioned from more from the female perspective of caring for the dead to the male perspective of caring for the dead became much more transactional.

We definitely lost the emotional connection to us, the whole process of death and dying. And that's not to say that every male influence was that way, but it definitely overarchingly shifted the whole industry or profession. And as we're transitioning now back to a much more female dominated industry, I mean, our...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:12.995)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (14:13.176)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:25.933)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (14:26.476)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (14:38.696)
Mortuary schools are having enrollments of like 90 % women. so graduation rates is closer to 70%. But still, like that's a really large percent that women are coming back into this. And with that, we're coming into this space where we're expected to perform on a more male dominated viewpoint of how this is supposed to like be an experience for families. And I'm finding a lot of us were just like, this is so not okay. Like how do we back up?

Annalouiza (14:41.004)
Yes, yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:42.499)
Yeah, I know, that's great.

Annalouiza (15:00.558)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:06.605)
Right.

Annalouiza (15:06.754)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (15:08.486)
and make this much more of an emotional human experience versus a transactional one. And so that's kind of where my love for diving in and being like kind of a tree shaker started. I was kind of this, this can't be the way that it is forever because one, we're going to lose the consumer because as things have started to shift and luckily things are shifting about the same time as the women are kind of really starting to take over.

Annalouiza (15:12.831)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:15.128)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (15:15.458)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:21.752)
Hehehe.

Annalouiza (15:22.51)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (15:38.474)
We're seeing a lot more families asking for more, that more hands-on experience. We want more green experiences. want to do bigger, more celebrations, not church services where they do the two Psalms, one poem, and then the preacher says their name wrong twice. We've been there, we've done it. I can't tell you how many times I've done that, but it's...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:42.765)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (15:42.882)
Good, wow, beautiful.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:50.947)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (15:55.04)
Mm-hmm.

you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:58.208)
You

Jess Wakefield (16:04.584)
I think everybody's over it. And one of the conversations I had not long ago was with a lady who was in her 90s. And she said, I don't want a funeral. And I said, why don't you want a funeral? She's like, well, frankly, I've been to plenty of them and they all suck. And I was like, I was like, wait, what? And she was like, frankly, I just don't speak to me. And I'm like, but no one said yours had to be like those ones. Like we can do something totally different. And she was like, really?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:06.115)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (16:06.432)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:18.531)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Annalouiza (16:20.6)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:26.573)
Yeah.

That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:29.494)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (16:33.864)
So she, you know, I think we have that fear of not fitting the norm sometimes. And so when we've, especially with the older generation, when they're like, well, I mean, I would love a party, but I don't really want to do that. Let's do it. No one said it had to be a church service. No one said that we had to have mass. No one said we had to do any of it. Like, do you make your own thing? And I think that that's really starting to shift to

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:40.098)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:42.776)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:46.381)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:46.619)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:54.019)
Great.

Annalouiza (16:56.43)
That's right.

Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (17:00.674)
We're seeing more people ask for services. We're seeing more of that. It's slow, but it's starting. And it's definitely one of those situations where when you give the people what they're looking for, they're going to want to do it. But if we try to fit people in this box, right, then we're going to be like, no, thank you. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:02.957)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (17:03.358)
it's so wonderful.

Annalouiza (17:07.69)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:13.759)
Right? Yeah.

Annalouiza (17:16.503)
Are you-

Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:22.519)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (17:22.678)
Right. Well, we're giving we're giving them we're being curious about what they would like. Right. Like you're like, so what would you like?

Jess Wakefield (17:28.17)
I wanna know all about it. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:29.513)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's so great. That's you know, compassionate listening and paying attention and all these things we learn in the work of grief counseling, et cetera. So yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. again, I hope it really impacts the way our audience thinks about what's going to happen to them and how they let people know what they'd like to have happen to them.

Annalouiza (17:31.382)
Yeah, that's so funny.

Annalouiza (17:37.356)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (17:37.552)
Right?

Yeah.

Annalouiza (17:50.982)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (17:53.222)
Yeah, and in that space, I always suggest like, if you're thinking about what you want to do or like planning for yourself for the future, call the funeral homes in your area. Find the one that is willing to kind of listen and build with you versus somebody who's like, yep, here's our price list. Because you really do need somebody who is going to take the time to listen and and kind of build what you're looking for.

Annalouiza (18:08.586)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:12.756)
haha

Annalouiza (18:13.036)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:17.261)
So true.

Annalouiza (18:17.548)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:20.813)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (18:21.51)
whether that's a simple graveside service with 10 people present and nothing special to, as far as you're concerned, nothing special to me, that would be really special, but to the extravagant big hooplaas that we can see being done too. So there's no there's no right answer.

Annalouiza (18:21.58)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (18:31.106)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:33.827)
Ha.

Annalouiza (18:34.036)
Mm hmm. That's right. Right. So I just have a quick question, too, because it occurs to me that you use funeral homes, but I have performed celebrations of life, funerals, and I've never gone through a funeral home. So so, you know, people can also choose to like, you know, do you know, you could do the cremation and then you can like pick a spot.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:36.543)
Hmm

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:40.226)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (18:53.596)
You can definitely do it either way. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:53.859)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (18:57.642)
See you at on your own.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:58.883)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (19:00.809)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (19:03.596)
And do it right. Like, I don't know I've shared this on this podcast, but when my sister died, I asked if we could do it at a fire station because she loved the fireman and because she had been such a huge, like fireman supporter and use the fire department quite a bit because she was disabled and often fell. And so they said, yes. And so I had her funeral at the fire station with like city council, her birds.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:03.789)
Yeah, yeah.

Jess Wakefield (19:04.379)
Yep, absolutely.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:14.371)
Hmm.

Jess Wakefield (19:14.698)
I love that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:32.364)
You

Annalouiza (19:32.783)
a popcorn machine, ice cream and a, what does it call this sugar, cotton candy machine. Yep. And we had all that out there and music going and it was this big carnival essentially. Right. And so, and so, yeah. And so, you know, I, I, people always say like, that's so cool. I'm like, yeah, like why not? You know, my sister would have loved it. Like she, that's what she wanted.

Jess Wakefield (19:32.97)
I love it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:36.141)
Ha ha ha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:40.407)
cotton candy. wow. So cool.

Jess Wakefield (19:40.681)
the cotton candy. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:50.039)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (19:50.244)
I love it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:58.071)
Yeah, right.

Jess Wakefield (19:58.6)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (20:01.6)
So you don't have to have somebody tell you what you can and can't do. You can actually just go and do it.

Jess Wakefield (20:06.01)
Nope. Yeah, I had a friend of mine who was very into like charity events and galas. She just loved them getting dressed up for anything at all. And when she passed away, her family decided they were going to host a black tie event because that's something she would have loved. so, yeah, and so we had the huge champagne freaking like fountain thing and it was

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:07.671)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:17.813)
haha

Annalouiza (20:20.524)
Mm-hmm.

Love that!

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:27.755)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:33.411)
haha

Jess Wakefield (20:34.224)
amazing and we did it at a hotel. it was the funeral home was not involved. And so yeah, you can there's so many different things you can do. I mean, we've seen people do like the gatherings at the on the ocean, everybody on their surfboards, you know, we've done we've I've seen a lot of different options. And so I think the biggest thing is to stop asking what everybody else is doing and ask what you want. Right. Like, what do you want to do? Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:36.451)
Mm.

Annalouiza (20:36.504)
Yeah.

Wow.

Annalouiza (20:47.052)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:51.895)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (20:56.464)
That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:57.036)
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, that's so great. There's nothing off the table, basically. Yeah, I love that. That's so, so really important. Thank you.

Annalouiza (21:02.008)
Mm-mm.

Jess Wakefield (21:04.628)
I mean, and if you're working with a funeral director for this process because you want the help with that, that's great too. And most of us are gonna be able to help do whatever we can within the legal reasoning, right? So like, as long as they're not breaking any laws, most of us are gonna be so excited to help you do something different and exciting that I don't think you would have a problem finding somebody who's willing to help.

Annalouiza (21:05.471)
Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:09.642)
Mm Yeah.

Annalouiza (21:09.72)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (21:16.302)
That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:16.546)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:22.861)
Great. Yeah, yeah. And it's also now we're more and more doulas are out there that also have that expertise and can help you walk through that and others like like Ana Luisa and I have both worked as a grief counseling and people, there's a lot of people out there now, especially because we're doing this work to get the conversations going. There's a lot of people that you can reach out to.

Annalouiza (21:22.892)
Yep.

Annalouiza (21:26.594)
Yep. Yep.

Jess Wakefield (21:31.014)
Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Jess Wakefield (21:40.18)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (21:43.534)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:49.579)
you know, if it's a spiritual person, spiritual teacher, whatever, you know, there's a lot of people you can reach out to and basically just going to them with this is what would be cool for me. Yeah, that's a great thing. Yeah, exactly. Write it down and make sure everyone knows where to find it. Yeah, absolutely.

Jess Wakefield (21:50.29)
And thank goodness for that.

Annalouiza (21:52.994)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (21:59.536)
Mm-hmm. And then write it down. Write it down. Exactly.

Annalouiza (22:08.492)
So, Wackill, did you ask her what her current role is? Okay, but do you have a title for that? You're at her funeral home right now.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:13.214)
Yeah, yeah, we talked about it. Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (22:17.914)
So I am at a funeral home right now. So I met with Everest and I am the director of operations. So my role is very much, I'm helping build out all of the customer service and customer facing interactions with the families that we're working with for.

Annalouiza (22:21.035)
Okay.

Annalouiza (22:24.664)
That's right. Okay.

Jess Wakefield (22:38.91)
when they do pass. So we offer cremation, we offer access to local funeral homes that will provide green burial options, tarimation, as well as aquamation in some areas, depending on where we are. we're trying to make sure that it's an experience that is modern.

Annalouiza (22:52.248)
Beautiful. Okay.

Jess Wakefield (23:00.574)
but also is very old school in a way too. So we do all of our arrangements virtually, so you do not physically have to come into the funeral home. So if you wanna do your arrangements at 10 p.m. with a glass of wine in your pajamas, more power to you, we'll help you out. So one of the big things for me is as I've spent 15 plus years working in larger funeral homes, there were many conversations I had with people who were like, just physically do not want to be here. I don't wanna be in your building.

Annalouiza (23:03.735)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:12.802)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (23:29.246)
We were here when my mom passed. It brings back bad memories. Like, I just don't want to do it. And so as we were building Everest, the conversation very leaned to, why do we need that? Why do we physically have to come in? Especially in today's era where like, you can do everything over the internet. So we decided we don't need to. And so...

Annalouiza (23:30.153)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (23:43.778)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (23:48.205)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (23:51.978)
We are doing everything virtually. If we have families that have accessibility issues or are struggling to kind of figure it out, we're more than happy to come to them or meet them somewhere so that we can finalize everything in a way that isn't coming into the funeral home itself.

Annalouiza (24:01.58)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:06.19)
Yeah. would you say that that's a white question to you should have been was like, what are your biggest challenges? Is that a challenge for when people really are resistant to going into the building?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:06.381)
Mm-hmm. I love that.

Jess Wakefield (24:17.852)
No, I would say that maybe 15 % of the people that we worked with were kind of like, they get really nervous about being in funeral homes. Most people probably don't, it's just a building to them, you know? But my biggest thing was doing it on your own timeline.

Annalouiza (24:31.064)
Yeah, okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:38.723)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (24:39.374)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (24:39.562)
If I say to you, oh, can you meet at 10 a.m.? We have a 10 a.m. slot or a 1 p.m. slot, like which one works for you? It really shrinks down, like, and forces you to be much more organized at a time when the grief is just really kind of rolling. And so if I say to you, can you please get the following thing done before, you know, in the next 48 hours, you can do it when you're ready to do it. So that means if you want to sign documentation at 2 a.m. because you're awake and you're feeling like you need to get it done.

Annalouiza (24:44.534)
Right, right, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:52.695)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:52.96)
Yeah, that's interesting.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:00.685)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (25:01.198)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (25:08.77)
Mm-hmm. All right.

Jess Wakefield (25:09.578)
Great. But it doesn't matter to me when it's getting done. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:11.075)
That's great. Yeah, that's so nice. So open, changes a lot of what people and I love the sensitivity to where people are in that grief. And that's something we've always talked about and pay attention to, try to pay attention to. And it's really important.

Annalouiza (25:14.744)
That is really good, yeah.

Annalouiza (25:22.446)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (25:23.144)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (25:27.874)
Yeah, it actually, like I just wrote down like time and grief and how time is compounded while you're in the grief mode. And so you given it sacred space to just kind of flow rather than you're forced to do what I think you need to do now. Right. So that is incredibly sacred and very sensitive. I really appreciate that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:35.64)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (25:36.328)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:46.158)
haha

Jess Wakefield (25:46.291)
Right? Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:50.7)
Yeah, exactly.

Jess Wakefield (25:51.016)
I think it stems from like the whole idea for me as I watched a very close friend of mine, his husband passed away and I was physically present when he passed. I was there for hours before and after and the whole process. And so...

Annalouiza (26:02.616)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (26:10.44)
This person, he was a funeral director, his husband was not, but he was a funeral director and we both knew what the next steps were. We both know how this is supposed to work. And then when I watched him completely forget everything and just become a family in grief, I was like, this was, it was eyeopening for me as a professional to be like, my gosh, if someone who knows exactly what the next steps are is going, okay, Jess, now what?

Annalouiza (26:23.692)
Hmm, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:23.939)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (26:27.518)
Yes

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:27.522)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:39.767)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (26:40.248)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (26:40.752)
my gosh, now what? That means that no one has a clue what's going on once somebody passes away. And I also noticed in that process that there was no way, even though he knew exactly what needed to happen and what documents needed to happen and what was needing to be decided on, there was no way for him to do that in the timeline that we wanted him to. And so I very much was like, take your time. We are in no hurry. We

Annalouiza (26:45.004)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:01.475)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (27:03.723)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (27:09.788)
We know what you want to do. We know what your husband wanted. And so you just let me know when you're ready to come in and make decisions. And he's like, I don't want to come in. I don't want to come in. And I was like, OK, I'll come to you. And that's he was a co-worker of mine coming into work to do arrangements for his husband and didn't want to physically come in. And he's like.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:18.744)
Hehe.

Annalouiza (27:19.854)
Mmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:22.241)
Yeah, yeah, well.

Annalouiza (27:28.002)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (27:31.274)
That was a twofold issue, right? Like he's like, I don't want everybody to fawn on me and be like, oh my gosh, we're so sorry. He's like, I'm not ready for it. And number two, I don't want to make these arrangements because it's admitting that I have to and I don't want to. And so I kind of, that was eye opening for me in the process of like, wow, maybe we are rushing this a little bit when we have families who pass and then the next day we're like, make arrangements.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:38.433)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (27:38.626)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:42.563)
Mm.

Annalouiza (27:42.964)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:45.602)
Wow.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:49.976)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:55.479)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (27:55.598)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:59.575)
haha

Annalouiza (27:59.757)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (28:00.164)
Why are we doing that to ourselves? Well, sometimes we need four to eight hours to just kind of be like, holy cow, this is real. OK, process a little bit and then start making decisions.

Annalouiza (28:07.045)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:11.435)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because I know I've been through this too, and probably most probably all of us have, and the sense that the world is upside down, and doesn't seem like it's real anymore. And it doesn't make any sense anymore. And to try to be figuring out, okay, and what do I practically do right now when all you want to do is lay there and go fuck, you know.

Annalouiza (28:12.45)
Hmm. Hmm.

Annalouiza (28:21.742)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (28:31.69)
Yeah, the last thing I want to do is pick out flowers right now because I don't really like flowers right now. Like, can we not? Yeah, like, yeah.

Annalouiza (28:32.92)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:36.759)
Right? Yeah, I kind of hate flowers. Yeah. Yeah. Which also is why it's so important to do as much as you can ahead of time for folks. That's another preaching thing that we do here, talk about getting it done as much as possible. You're going to help your loved ones so much by getting all as much of that as you can done ahead of time. And it's the way you want it, you know, that way.

Annalouiza (28:37.194)
Right, right. Write the obituary and make the phone calls. I mean, there's a lot of work to do in those moments.

Jess Wakefield (28:45.042)
Yeah. Yeah. And

Annalouiza (28:47.886)
you

Jess Wakefield (28:50.48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (28:52.904)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (28:59.196)
Mm, so true.

Annalouiza (29:02.766)
Hmm.

Jess Wakefield (29:04.361)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:05.761)
Yeah. do you have any fear of dying yourself? There you go. Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (29:09.712)
No. I fear being in pain more than I fear the actual process of not being here or dying. I look at it as the next grade, the last grade adventure. you know, none of us know what happens after that. So how do I know I don't get to go on some extremely cool adventure? I don't know. Like, I try to be on the optimistic side of it. you know, I just, yeah, I don't really fear it at all.

Annalouiza (29:12.91)
Mm-hmm.

dying, right?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:21.741)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (29:21.922)
Yes. Yes.

Annalouiza (29:28.438)
Right? That's what I'm right there with you.

Annalouiza (29:38.008)
Mm-hmm.

Jess Wakefield (29:39.644)
And I definitely, I definitely wouldn't say I'm looking forward to it, but I don't, I don't, I don't have any overarching fear. I fear more losing the people around me that I love, like, you know, losing your parents or spouse or those types of things. I definitely struggle more with those items than myself for sure. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:53.218)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:59.861)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like, you know, even if the if all it is is I am soil, that's that's perfect. Yeah. Yeah, I can I can rest and create other things with my body. I love that. Yeah, that's so great. Thank you.

Annalouiza (30:00.281)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (30:07.118)
I get to finally sleep. Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes. So in this work that you're doing, how do you keep yourself resourced when days are a little harder than most? And what do do?

Jess Wakefield (30:07.338)
Right? Yeah. Right? You know. Ah. Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (30:26.762)
That's a loaded question. Yeah, for me, people are everything, right? So I have my core group of friends that are very supportive, very good listeners. I tend to lean into them a lot when I have those days where I'm like, holy moly. But overall...

Annalouiza (30:28.086)
Hahaha

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:28.099)
Hahaha

Annalouiza (30:33.806)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:45.869)
Yeah

Jess Wakefield (30:49.288)
The families are what really give me back most of what I need. Being able to really feel like I'm helping or assisting families is probably the biggest part of it. There's nothing better than a family that reaches out to you later and says, could have never made it through this without you. And those are my bread and butter when it comes to remembering why I do this, for sure.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:55.063)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:02.211)
Well.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:10.317)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:16.129)
Hmm. Yeah, that's great. That's beautiful. That's what a wonderful thing. What a wonderful legacy to that that you're creating and that you're, you know, embodying your embodying this sense of caring for people in a way that is real and is open and is thoughtful and compassionate. Loving that, loving it.

Annalouiza (31:16.161)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (31:24.334)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (31:32.374)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (31:37.484)
Yeah. And you know, it's, it's about being in service and when you're in service, you really do get your cup filled. Like it's in like it's your giving and you're supporting and yeah, it's like a circle. So I love this.

Jess Wakefield (31:40.574)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:43.331)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (31:43.72)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:49.121)
Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. Well, this is pretty much where we wanted to get to us. Is there anything we didn't ask you that you wish we could have asked you about? and I do want to ask real quickly, looking at the introduction again, can you tell us what the LW Tech Foundation is? And then if there's anything we didn't ask that you'd like to tell us.

Jess Wakefield (32:06.122)
Yeah, yeah. So the LW Tech Foundation is a scholarship and alumni foundation from Lake Washington Technical School. So they are the only mortuary program in Washington State, which is where I graduated from. And then each year they award a alumni, distinguished alumni award. And it's from the entire school.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:19.346)
okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:31.779)
Hmm.

Jess Wakefield (32:34.788)
history. So it doesn't matter when you graduated, what year, what program, they picked one person each year. And I happen to have been 2022 nominated and selected winner. Yeah, yeah. A big part of that is

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:35.896)
Wow.

Annalouiza (32:40.749)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:47.661)
For a good reason. For good reason. Yeah. Well, is there anything else? I'm sorry, go ahead.

Annalouiza (32:48.034)
So great, yes.

Jess Wakefield (32:53.436)
just like a big part of the reason why I was put on the list of nominations was more along the lines of what I was giving back to the school when I was there. Because I was definitely volunteering a lot of time and education mentorship, but also educating community as well. And so one of the instructors decided they were like, my gosh, we have to do something nice to thank her for all this work. And I think that that was where it kind of came from. But it was such an honor and it was a lot of fun.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:02.657)
okay.

Annalouiza (33:16.174)
Aww.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:20.865)
Yeah. Yeah, so cool. So great. Well, well deserved. So yeah, is there anything else that you wish we'd have asked you about that you'd like to share before we call this an interview?

Annalouiza (33:26.338)
Yes.

Jess Wakefield (33:31.87)
Ooh. You know, nope. I think you guys did such a great job. I mean, I could talk to you for hours, so.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:37.699)
Mm.

Annalouiza (33:38.702)
Cool. We could all probably talk for hours. know. Death is our jam.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:40.439)
Yeah, yeah, and that happens. Yeah, well, again, thank you so much for the work you're doing and for all you shared with us. We really appreciate you and that that direction is so important for us to all pay attention to. You did provide us a quote. go ahead, Analuisa.

Jess Wakefield (33:43.626)
Yep. Yeah, it's true.

Annalouiza (33:51.159)
Yes.

Jess Wakefield (33:51.988)
Thank you.

Annalouiza (34:00.195)
It is.

Yeah, no, just say, and she needs to read a quote before we say goodbye.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:06.763)
Yeah. So do you want to read it or do want one of us to? And there's actually two, right? Didn't you send us two? Yeah, I think. Okay. Well, I think we could, I could read the first and you could read the second on, Louisa. think they actually go together really well. So there's a quote that's from a Jewish proverb that says, what is remembered lives. Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (34:07.06)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (34:12.316)
Yeah, I don't have them up though, because I closed everything else out just to be safe.

Annalouiza (34:20.416)
Sure. Okay.

Jess Wakefield (34:23.752)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (34:31.278)
And then we have her words with, well, with you until grief becomes love remembered. Let read that again. With you until grief becomes love remembered.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:48.405)
And we will put information in the podcast about how to find her. And she'll send links for her. But if you were looking for her substack, it's with you until. So it's part of that quote. again, I can't say enough about how impressed I've been with the work you're doing and the stuff on the substack. So yeah, keep working, keep doing this, keep spreading the word, and we'll say goodbye for now.

Jess Wakefield (34:59.891)
Yeah.

Jess Wakefield (35:07.401)
well, thank you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:17.025)
I'll let you know when this goes live.

Jess Wakefield (35:17.448)
Yay! Perfect! Thank you so much. You guys have a great rest of your day. Bye!

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:23.371)
You too, take care.

Annalouiza (35:23.576)
Thank you so much.

Annalouiza (35:29.326)
Always, every single time I am just like, wish they were my neighbors so that we could sit and talk over the fence about what kind of parties we're going to have when we die.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:30.175)
Always, always, always.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:35.287)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:40.449)
Yeah, I so loved her perspective and her widening of the idea of caring for people as a funeral director to include everything on the beginning, the middle, the end, you know, and to create that sense of this is who this is how we remember people. That's so important. She does such a great job.

Annalouiza (35:56.322)
That's right. She does. But I'm really curious why funeral directors' of jobs have been truncated over time, right? It has lost a lot of that human touch aspect. It is very transactional. I take your body, and then we do this, and then you get it, and then carry on. And I appreciate that she's really re-

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:13.164)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:19.191)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (36:24.64)
invigorating this pathway for people to talk about the entirety of this, of this portal that people are walking through, right? Like.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:32.483)
Exactly, yeah, it's so good, so important. And yeah, I think when it became corporate and became about money, then we had to shrink it down and make more efficient. And so now to open that up in this generous, compassionate, loving way, so wonderful, so important. All right, well, we were very blessed again. And we'll look forward to our next episode.

Annalouiza (36:39.808)
That's right.

Annalouiza (36:48.92)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes, always.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:58.115)
And I have no idea what that is, so I won't be able to do that this time. But stay tuned. Come back again next time. All right. Thank you, Luis. I'm going to stop this and then we can do whatever we

Annalouiza (37:02.646)
Stay tuned. Yes. Thank you.