The Surprising Push For Open Air Cremation In America: Another Way to Deal with Grief, Death, and Dying Artwork

End of Life Conversations: Normalizing Talk About Death, Dying, and Grief

Death touches us all, and yet our culture rarely makes space to talk about it openly. Why is it so hard to have honest conversations about death, dying, and loss with the people we love? What do we do with grief when it inevitably arrives?

End of Life Conversations is a podcast dedicated to normalizing these essential conversations. Hosts Reverent Mother Annalouiza Armendariz and Reverend Wakil David Matthews — both seasoned hospice chaplains and end-of-life companions — invite experts and everyday voices alike: funeral directors, death doulas, poets, researchers, grief counselors, and people who've walked right up to the edge of life and returned. Together, they explore what it means to prepare for death, sit with loss, and grieve in ways that are as individual as we are.

And weekly, we share a conversation with our friend Sam Zemke about something that is currently speaking to us.

Whether you're supporting a loved one through a terminal illness, searching for the right words to start a difficult conversation, or simply curious about what a more death-positive life might look like, this podcast meets you where you are. No question is too strange. No path looks the same.

Subscribe, reach out, and join the conversation. Because the time to talk about it is now.

endoflifeconvo@gmail.com | endoflifeconvos.substack.com

We want to thank our excellent editor, Sam Zemkee. We also acknowledge that we live and work on unceded indigenous peoples' lands. We thank them for their generations of stewardship, which continues to this day, and honor them by doing all we can to create a sustainable planet and support the flourishing of all life, both human and more-than-human.

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End of Life Conversations: Normalizing Talk About Death, Dying, and Grief

The Surprising Push For Open Air Cremation In America: Another Way to Deal with Grief, Death, and Dying

November 05, 2025 • Rev Annalouiza Armendariz & Rev Wakil David Matthews & Brett Nicoletti • Season 5 • Episode 6

0:00 | 42:23

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In this conversation, Brett Nicoletti, an award-winning documentary filmmaker, shares his journey into the world of death and dying, exploring his personal experiences with loss and their impact on his storytelling. He discusses his documentary project, 'Passing Through,' which focuses on open-air cremation and cultural perspectives on death. The conversation delves into the importance of rituals and community, the challenges of filmmaking, and reflections on fear and the acceptance of death. Throughout, Brett emphasizes the sacredness of this work and the need for deeper connections in the face of mortality.

This video explores the intricacies of the cremation process, including what happens to the ashes after the procedure. We also touch on the role of the funeral home in facilitating these arrangements. Understanding the legal process and regulations surrounding cremation can provide clarity during a difficult time of death.

LINKS

FILM WEBSITE

http://www.passingthroughfilm.net/

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Facebook

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Support the show

We very much want to hear your thoughts. Please join us on Substack for our community chat.

This podcast helps anyone dealing with loss. It can guide you with end-of-life planning and death-positive resources.

Check out our introductory episode to learn more about Annalouiza, Wakil, and our vision/mission to normalize and destigmatize conversations about death, dying, grief, and loss.

You can find us on SubStack, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and BlueSky. You are also invited to subscribe to support us financially. Anyone who supports us at any level will have access to Premium content, special online meet-ups, and one-on-one time with Annalouiza or Wakil.

And we would love your feedback and want to hear your stories. You can email us at endoflifeconvo@gmail.com.

We want to be transparent that we use AI tools to help us with titles, show notes, editing, and introductions.

...

Annalouiza (00:01.607)
Welcome back friends. Thank you so much for joining us today as I am the Reverend Mother Anandwisa Mendadis. And today we are excited to have a little chat with Brett Nicoletti. Brett is an award-winning documentary filmmaker whose mission is to shine a light on people and organizations who are making a positive impact. Brett has directed two independent films that have screened and won awards at American Film Festivals. Beyond his personal projects, he frequently collaborates with global brands and nonprofit organizations, helping them to tell their stories with authenticity, emotion, and joy.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:45.481)
So nice to have you. So glad you could come. And I'm the Reverend Wakeel David Matthews, and we're really glad to have Brett with us today. In recent years, his work has focused on end-of-life storytelling. What began as a personal inquiry into mortality has evolved into a long-term creative and spiritual exploration. Through these stories of death, courage, and community, Brett continues to pursue the truth behind what it means to be human. And we're really looking forward to hearing more about all that.

So Brett, welcome. And we'd like to begin by just asking in your life when you first became aware of death.

Annalouiza (01:18.727)
Yes.

Brett Nicoletti (01:24.078)
Well, thank you for having me. It really is an honor to be here. I've listened to your podcast a lot and I'm a big fan. So just to be a part of it is very special for me. So thank you.

Annalouiza (01:34.407)
Thanks

So excited to you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:38.819)
Yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (01:41.282)
So death, yeah. So I did not experience death really until my mid-20s. Didn't lose anyone close to me when I was younger. Pets, right, I never had any pets. And so I had a dog in my mid-20s, my then girlfriend, now wife, and I adopted a dog from the shelter. Beautiful little pit bull named Cinco.

And we loved, I mean, we didn't have any children. I mean, he was our child. And we loved him so much. And he was just a very happy guy. And he was a very good friend of mine, like closest friend you could possibly imagine. And I watched him get hit by a car 10 feet in front of me. And the noise that came out of me was...

Annalouiza (02:23.269)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:24.494)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:29.337)
Wow.

Brett Nicoletti (02:35.694)
something that's never come out of me before or since. I mean, it was shocking terror, guttural, just, you know, release. You know, the next 15 minutes, he was able to come over to me. He dropped as soon as he got to me. I put my arms underneath him and he died in my arms over the next 15 minutes. And it was brutal. It was brutal. And having not...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:38.937)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (02:43.6)
Yes

Annalouiza (02:58.246)
Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:01.411)
Yeah, yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (03:04.744)
seen that or been through that before in my life. It was the worst thing that ever happened to me. Simply said, I was living in New York at the time and the next morning I went into work. I took the train into Grand Central Station and I walked out into that big giant train station and there was a woman acapella singing Amazing Grace.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:12.761)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (03:12.785)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:33.443)
Hmm.

Brett Nicoletti (03:33.926)
in the train station, which was, you know, yes, yeah, it was magical. You know, like I cried again and I just felt for the first time in my life, I felt something beyond what is tangible. Right. And I had, you know, I was raised Christian, but, know, I wasn't really practicing.

Annalouiza (03:37.263)
In that dome, that big space, right? Ugh.

Annalouiza (03:43.911)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:56.109)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (03:56.603)
Right.

Brett Nicoletti (04:03.342)
at this point in my life and so I Basically have been ignored it had been ignoring death for my until it's higher light so For this to happen first of all the shock and terror of it all and secondly For the song to be gifted to me as I walked into that train station It was just quite an experience it really it really affected me Another

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:11.362)
Ha.

Annalouiza (04:11.569)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (04:20.145)
Mm.

Annalouiza (04:25.671)
Mm-hmm.

Brett Nicoletti (04:31.656)
short story I'll share about, you my first experience with death would be my second dog that passed away. Ruby, our beloved German Shepherd, who is a family dog, know, fast forward 15 years later, we had her for 11 years, she lived a full life. And we hired a service to come to our house, she had, she had, you know, lost control of her faculties, she was, you know, barely able to walk.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:50.307)
Hmm.

Brett Nicoletti (04:58.018)
And about 15 minutes before the woman showed up, we're sitting in our backyard is myself, my wife and our two kids. And I don't know, 200 crows were circling above our yard, which I've never seen before or since. And it was really wild. And Ruby's just laying in the backyard, you know, looking at us. And it was just like, they know, how did they know? How did, how did they know? You know? So.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:13.62)
Wow.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:22.649)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (05:22.703)
Mm-hmm, they do know. Ugh.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:26.179)
Hmm.

Brett Nicoletti (05:27.116)
just amazing experiences in both those. And I feel like both Ruby and Cinco gave me hope, you know, beyond what is, you know, I can see in front of my face. So, yeah.

Annalouiza (05:37.016)
Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:37.433)
Huh.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:42.206)
yeah, yeah. Wow, what a beautiful couple of stories. Thank you. Yeah, to have the crows come and make a visitation to say, say, we're ready for you. Come on up.

Annalouiza (05:51.409)
Yep, yeah, we're taking you across the Rainbow Bridge, as they say.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:55.971)
Really, wow.

Brett Nicoletti (05:57.122)
It's really amazing. I looked over at my wife and we were both just awestruck. know, it was really something.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:01.697)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (06:01.743)
Yeah. You know, I really appreciate that you share that with us. We just recently had another guest who mentioned his first experience was with the dog, but he said it's my first lady friend, but she happened to be a dog. And, you know, and it was a very similar story. And, you know, we forget that any kind of death can shift us, can shift our perception.

can make us see things like we've never seen. So I'm so grateful for those two animal friends, family of yours, to have brought you into this awareness. Right? So.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:41.517)
Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure that.

Brett Nicoletti (06:41.868)
Yes, for sure. And I can't say that I've experienced anything like that since. It was those two specific moments. So.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:46.913)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (06:47.045)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (06:51.803)
Well, so those deaths occurred. then how does their shared experience with you impact the story of who you are today and what you're doing?

Brett Nicoletti (07:05.72)
So the truth is, after Senko especially, but even after Ruby, I still kind of had suppressed death, kind of ignored it, right? And the only two people in my life who have really, really, really close to me who I've lost are my two grandparents. And both of their ceremonies were...

know, kind of traditional American ceremonies. We had to wake for an hour.

funeral procession to the cemetery, short service at the cemetery, and that was it. And I remember in both cases, I drove away from those ceremonies and the caskets were sitting on like a slab of astroturf in the middle of the field. And I was just, I was left confused and unfulfilled. And so, so yeah, I mean, I think

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:56.984)
Thanks.

Annalouiza (07:59.001)
Mm. Mm.

Brett Nicoletti (08:07.874)
you know, in the last five years, I just sort of started to realize that this me ignoring this thing that is a very important part of life has, you know, fostered a very healthy fear of death in my belly. Right. So and I think this so. As I started to realize that I started to restart, I picked up a book and I.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:24.984)
Mm.

Brett Nicoletti (08:37.74)
I was inspired by the book that I read of the person who wrote it as a mortician. And she just spoke about death in a way that was so real. She had a sense of humor about it. I was, Caitlin, yes, yes, yeah, yeah. And so as I'm reading her stories, I realized I want what she has.

Annalouiza (08:50.791)
Is this Caitlin? Is this Caitlin Doty? I love her.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:54.169)
Yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (09:05.824)
I want this comfort. want to be okay with this. Hence what began this journey of making this film, which is an ongoing process. We're still right smack dab in the middle of production, fundraising, trying to get the thing off the ground while shooting stuff while we can. But through this project, and it's a documentary feature film called Passing Through,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:08.814)
Yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (09:38.442)
I have spoken now with directly on camera and off camera with 10, 20, 30 professionals and practitioners who live this every day of their lives. And it is, it is helping. It's the, mean, and I've sort of realized that this was the purpose of this movie is that it's yes, it's a very interesting story for those who are interested in this topic, but it's really for me. It's really so that I can, I can get.

Annalouiza (09:51.623)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:53.433)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:58.115)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:05.241)
Hmm.

Brett Nicoletti (10:08.884)
right with what's coming.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:11.993)
Oh yeah, that's great. What a great way to take care of yourself, right? Yeah. Can you tell us a little more about the movie and what you've experienced and the kind of things that you're working with?

Annalouiza (10:12.614)
Wow.

Brett Nicoletti (10:17.516)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (10:17.937)
Yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (10:24.658)
Sure. So I was through that book. I was turned on to the Crestone End of Life Project, which is for those who don't know, it's the it's a nonprofit organization in Crestone, Colorado that operates the only legal public funeral pyre in the country. And so. I started they have a they have regular public Zoom calls, so you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:41.974)
Mm, all right.

Brett Nicoletti (10:52.782)
So every month, it was every month, but now it's every quarter. They have a public call where they have an agenda. They talk about parking for the last event and any cremations that they may have had. But they also have Q &A and they have a presenter. And so I logged on to a call and a woman was presenting from Minnesota and she was trying to legalize open air cremation in the state of Minnesota.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:03.576)
Hmm.

Brett Nicoletti (11:22.47)
And so I reached out to her and I asked her about what she was up to. And I realized that there were five, six organizations, people, individuals who were trying to get this off the ground in their states. There's Minnesota, there's Vermont, Maine, New Jersey, Missouri. All these states have had efforts to make open air cremation legal in their states. And so my my beginning of this film was to

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:47.801)
Hmm.

Brett Nicoletti (11:52.224)
make a film about that effort to legalize open air cremation in the United States. And so I traveled to Minnesota and I met with an organization there, it's called Northern Pire, a nonprofit in St. Paul, Minnesota. And then a year later, we all visited Crestone and we got a demo from the team. One of the founders, Paul Kloppenberg, and we interviewed Paul and Stephanie, who are the two founders.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:55.246)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (11:55.655)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:03.801)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:12.259)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:16.664)
Thanks

Brett Nicoletti (12:21.038)
And we interviewed volunteers and then we interviewed people who lost their loved ones and experienced the, these, uh, the ceremony, you know, directly with, for a family member. Um, and since then, um, you know, the open air cremation effort, unfortunately has not really moved. You know, it's very hard, as you can imagine, to get this even up for a vote. Um, Maine did it and it got knocked down 12 to nothing like

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:27.235)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:43.587)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (12:46.321)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:46.381)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Brett Nicoletti (12:50.37)
didn't even make it to the next stage. And so I started reaching out to people who were in the dying industry. And I ended up connecting with a hospice in Southern California, the Southern California Hospice Organization. I should say that they're not a hospice, they're a nonprofit organization that supports hospices and they operate a six bed, 24 hour care hospice home in Mission Viejo.

Annalouiza (12:50.449)
Wow.

Annalouiza (13:00.998)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:16.833)
wow.

Brett Nicoletti (13:20.174)
and I've been working with them for the last year and a half and basically trying to figure out how to connect these two stories and, really focusing on the dying process and honoring that as an important part of your life. And then also the disposition process, which is all very important. And so you have these two organizations that are doing things a little bit different than our standard operating procedure here that you normally hear about. and.

Annalouiza (13:27.111)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:31.683)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:36.355)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:47.192)
Mm-hmm.

Brett Nicoletti (13:50.114)
there's a connection. So I'm finding it. I haven't found it. And I need to spend more time filming. And that's all part of the independent film world where you're trying to make a living and make a movie at the same time. It's not always that easy.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:51.438)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:55.511)
Hehe.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:04.089)
Yeah, it's going to take time. Yeah, we get to talk to those folks coming up. have a schedule with them. So yeah, Creston coming up in a few weeks. So we'll get to speak to one of them and learn more. And I think it'll be great that we can refer people to your movie to learn even more about it. Did you, when you were checking into other places, you internationally, did you check to see, are there places in the rest of the world that allow this?

Annalouiza (14:04.143)
Mm-hmm. It isn't easy, yes.

Annalouiza (14:12.785)
Kristen. Right.

Brett Nicoletti (14:14.633)
great, great.

Annalouiza (14:22.541)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brett Nicoletti (14:24.181)
thank you. Yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (14:33.826)
Well, yes, it's a Hindu tradition, right? So I think India and Nepal, it's happening all the time there. by Hindu tradition, the cremation ceremony happens on the river. And then the ashes go into the river, I think, immediately following, or at least it has to happen within 24 hours. The cremation has to happen within 24 hours of the death.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:36.301)
Go young.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:42.147)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (14:45.063)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (14:57.383)
Mm-hmm.

Brett Nicoletti (15:03.762)
so it's legal in those countries and, my understanding is that it's happening, you know, if you go to these places, you see them there everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. there was a Hindu, Hindu man in England who, was able to have, was able to successfully pass a law in England. don't know if it was a temporary law, if you got a permit or.

Annalouiza (15:11.855)
Right. All day long, every day, all night, yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:13.633)
Yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (15:33.518)
or what, but he had been living in England, I think as a professor for 50 years and he was a devout Hindu. And this was, you know, this was a mandatory for him. You know, he couldn't, he could not not have this and he fought the courts for 15 years and he, can't remember his name, but he was, he was successful. So those are sort of some of the international sort of stories that I've, I've uncovered.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:43.449)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (15:46.193)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:53.932)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:58.391)
Yeah. Yeah, fascinating.

Annalouiza (15:59.079)
Yeah.

You know, I was going to also mention, uh, I trained with a woman who did natural funerals in Boulder. She was my mentor for a number of years and she told me about, uh, a private funeral pyre on somebody's land in Boulder and in their Waldorf community or something like that. They, they have done their funeral pyres and it's not been kind of tagged or anything. And I just thought that was really interesting that.

Somehow they managed to create the space but not have it be public. It's happening, but not just for everybody.

Brett Nicoletti (16:41.964)
Yes, I think that's a religious organization. I've heard of it. I could be wrong, or there could be multiple. But yes, I had heard of another organization in Colorado that had a private pyre. Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:47.878)
really? Yeah. Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:59.897)
Yeah, or they may just be incorporated as a religious organization just for the purpose of that kind of individuality.

Annalouiza (17:00.134)
Mm-hmm.

Brett Nicoletti (17:06.35)
Right now

Annalouiza (17:08.848)
Yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (17:09.676)
Yes, yes.

Annalouiza (17:11.675)
Hmm. Yeah, that's so interesting just because there are so many people who, whether by religious desires or just personal values would love to do this. Right. And it's such a, it's so, I think it's a devastating, awareness that not everybody has agency with how their bodies return to earth. Right. Like it's kind of bizarre.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:21.123)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:34.815)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (17:36.182)
Yeah, and it's really beautiful the way they do it. They have a three-day home funeral and the body is cared for by the family and the CELT, the Crestone End of Life Project organization itself. And it lays in state at home on ice and then it is transported by the family to the pyro site. And it's...

Annalouiza (17:39.399)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (17:47.419)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (17:52.603)
Bye.

Brett Nicoletti (18:01.548)
you know, these beautiful ceremonies that they have that last four hours long and people play music and they talk and they sing and they hug and cry. And it's a really like special. It's a special ceremony and it's a special organization. I mean, they and the community part of it is really like they are taking care of each other, you know, in life and in death. And it's a very beautiful thing to see.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:03.481)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:08.727)
Wow.

Annalouiza (18:10.843)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:15.411)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (18:15.505)
Right.

Annalouiza (18:25.456)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (18:30.631)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:30.745)
Yeah, yeah, we speak a lot about the importance of ritual and how it's lost in, you know, like you said, the standard operating procedure. just basically it's slam bam and pay for it, you know. So to recreate that in such a beautiful way. And I've noticed that in other more alternative disposition things like the composting and alchemy that the people who do that work seem to really also value.

Brett Nicoletti (18:42.765)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (18:48.359)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:58.307)
the ritual and the ceremony and create that space for people. So it's something about just, you know, having a more open way of looking at the end of life and where your body ends up. And also just barrel it sea or just put it in the dirt. All of those people that do that work seem to be much more, at least our experience here, my experience has been, they're much more connected and much more community oriented and much more into the ritual and ceremony.

Brett Nicoletti (19:28.782)
And I think it's because they care and they put thought into it and they make it a point to plan for what they want and what their family wants. And by doing that, they honor it, right? As opposed to just, you know, all of a sudden somebody dies and you just call up the funeral home, the body's out of your house or hospital or whatever in...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:28.813)
which is...

Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:39.959)
Right? Yeah.

Annalouiza (19:40.145)
right.

Annalouiza (19:45.447)
Right.

Annalouiza (19:54.523)
Right.

Brett Nicoletti (19:56.61)
within an hour and then you see it for another hour at the wake and that's it. It's very disconnected. I don't know if this is maybe a bad example, but it feels like over the last 100, 150 years with the advent of embalming, this has been taken away from us. And it has become a thing where we're just.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:59.927)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Annalouiza (20:00.804)
That's it. Right. That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:03.853)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:15.499)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Annalouiza (20:18.055)
right.

Brett Nicoletti (20:23.502)
We're separate. keep separating and separating and separating. There's a movie, a Monty Python movie called Life of Brian. I don't know if you've ever seen it. And they're walking like this carriage down the street and they're calling people to bring out their dead and the people. It's like from like, you know, from the time of Christ or whatever. Yeah. And it's like, I mean, people had to, had, the community had to take care of the dead.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:30.969)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (20:31.911)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:39.801)
Throwing them at her, yeah.

Annalouiza (20:40.283)
dumping them in, just doing the plague. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:44.269)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (20:50.971)
The dead. That's right.

Brett Nicoletti (20:53.326)
And not doing that now is why I'm terrified of it or have been terrified, you know, because I've just I've never seen it. You know, people are dying all around me all the time, of course. But I never see a dead body, you know, but of course, in my neighborhood all the time.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:08.269)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (21:11.899)
Right. Well, and I think that you're right. 100, 150 years ago with the advent of embalming, you know, the civil war and how we were trying to bring our loved ones' bodies back to their homes, it became, it shifted the priority of being with like the family to being in the funeral home with, you know, there being like a process that had to take place, right? And I think people just kind of thought, well, this is how we do it now.

Safer and somewhere we got into this idea that a dead well a decedent is is potentially Harmful right like nobody wants to touch a dead person Nobody wants to have them around or I always like people always ask me isn't it gross like people smell bad You know, what's the thing? And the funny thing is it's like it's not that big a deal my people like but having these conversations having your movie be

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:52.013)
This is.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:59.053)
Haha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:05.111)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (22:09.863)
pulled out into the world like a baby to like, you know, push it out there and and show people and tell people so that they have agency around this. can't they don't know what they are missing until they recognize what they're missing.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:12.537)
Zzzzz

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:18.029)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:22.678)
Exactly. Yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (22:22.722)
That's right. That's right. And I think it's just important that we all experience it, you know.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:28.183)
Yeah, exactly. Like you said, we have no way of coming to grips with it if we don't even see it. Pretend not to see it, maybe.

Annalouiza (22:28.261)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (22:34.683)
That's right. so, you know, not seeing the reality of everybody's going to die. What other challenges do you find in your project with your project?

Brett Nicoletti (22:38.636)
Right.

Brett Nicoletti (22:49.816)
So I think like I was touched on it before a little bit, it's the challenge of making a living while trying to make this independent film. It's not the easiest thing in the world. So what ultimately will happen is I'm a freelance director and editor. And what will ultimately happen is I'll be working on the film for let's say two months, and then I'll get booked on a project for two to three months.

Annalouiza (23:01.019)
Yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (23:18.456)
come up from that project and I'll be like, where was I? It'll take me two weeks just to find, get back to where I was when I last left it. And then maybe another project comes up. So it's like this ever never ending cycle of, you know, two steps forward, one step backwards. And it ends up taking years. Part of that is great because as time passes, my perspective on the story comes into.

Annalouiza (23:21.223)
Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Right.

Annalouiza (23:29.263)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:37.389)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:46.243)
Mm.

Brett Nicoletti (23:48.022)
light a little bit more. And the other thing about it, you my previous films that I've you know, you're always as you're making it, it's very challenging. You know, you're working really hard and then you get to the end and you have something that you really like and you're really proud of. And it's great. But then it's over. Right. And you don't get to do it anymore. And so.

Annalouiza (24:08.551)
Hmm.

Brett Nicoletti (24:13.07)
Now I'm sort of I keep telling myself as frustrated as I get and the other challenge would be is just like the self doubt, right? Like I'm I'm I'm no good. This isn't working. I can't you know, all that stuff that happens to anybody who writes anything, you know, paints anything, you know. But I keep reminding myself that this is the good part. You know, like my my experience of speaking with Michelle or Paul or Stephanie, going and meeting with these people, spending a day with

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:19.842)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:23.789)
Hahaha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:27.651)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:33.923)
Mmm.

Brett Nicoletti (24:42.798)
Last weekend I a day with a woman who lost her mother in May and interviewed her and talked to her about it and the hospice director who referred her to Michelle's space. And it's a gift. I mean, I'm so grateful for it. I'm so grateful that these people are sharing their stories with me. And so I have to keep reminding myself of that.

Annalouiza (24:57.809)
Mm-hmm

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:59.747)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (25:06.715)
Yeah. Brett, I also have to tell you, this is sacred work. This is very sacred work. Imagine that you're like a pastor and you will never see or hear the good things that come out. as you, when you finish your movie, you will still continue to talk about death. I promise you that because that's like once in, you never get done. Like death comes up every single day of my life now. And I'm very comfortable with it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:07.317)
Right, right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:12.534)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:25.751)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Brett Nicoletti (25:26.412)
Hehehehe

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:32.195)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (25:35.015)
People still call me, text me, asking questions. And that'll happen to you too. this child will be born into this world, this movie, and it will grow and it will collect its own people to help it move along. But you will never stop talking about this. I gear it up to you. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:50.105)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (25:53.546)
Yeah, I hope not because I really am hooked. know, like it's it's it's a it's a special, like you said, sacred, sacred topic. And and I find everybody who takes it seriously with their whole heart, fascinating and amazing people.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:58.175)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (26:10.298)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:11.641)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's our experience too. Every single we've done over, we're close to 90 episodes and I don't think there's been one that we haven't come away just going, oh my God, there's so many amazing people out there, you know? Yeah, and there's also this, the ripple that's happening just by your putting that energy and making that intention and being out there talking to people and getting it going, that's going to have an effect on many, many more people than you'll ever, ever know. So yeah, so just.

Annalouiza (26:19.355)
Yep.

together.

Annalouiza (26:25.607)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (26:30.055)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (26:36.047)
Yes, everybody goes out.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:41.133)
Huge gratitude for doing that work.

Annalouiza (26:43.237)
Yeah. And Brett, do you have a short already finished?

Brett Nicoletti (26:46.606)
So not, there's a trailer for the film. So is that what you're asking? Is it specific to the topic? Yes. So on the website, there's a trailer. It's a three, like three and a half minutes. So it's more like a teaser, but yeah, yeah, it's on the website.

Annalouiza (26:50.083)
Okay, okay. Yeah, well a trailer or a short because I yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:56.963)
Great.

Annalouiza (26:59.591)
Yeah, right. Yeah. And I only ask you that because I have another friend who's an independent filmmaker who's been working on her film for like five years. And she's also doing the same thing, works, and then comes back and does work. But what we did last year, she created a short. And that was like 45 minutes piece. And we ended up finding a lot of theaters who would host little like

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:00.877)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:09.378)
You

Brett Nicoletti (27:10.35)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (27:27.015)
check it out kind of things. And that's how we were doing fundraising last year to get done for the final piece that we needed to film. you know, that's,

Brett Nicoletti (27:36.206)
worth thinking about, right? And you had successful fundraising campaign? that's great.

Annalouiza (27:40.912)
Yeah, but you know, part of it too is that, there's an independent film, like the Denver film has its own theater and we were able to get, rent the theater out with like, I don't know, 150 seats for like, you know, very, very minimal amount of money. And then, in Boulder that she had two nights out there where they also hosted, a viewing and she took it to the reservation. And I think she took it to one of the place, but it's kind of like.

You need to find somebody who has the same passion and just go and just keep showing it and talking about it and passing the hat and people will show up. Like it's, it's a thing, you know, and you're going to need it to finish it up.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:16.387)
Yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (28:19.436)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I need it. I mean, the fundraising part is definitely a weakness. I am, you know, but I've got a friend who's helping me out and and we're we're just slowly ticking away at it. But, you know, we're going to launch a fundraising campaign. You know, it's officially underway. have a fiscal sponsor of the Utah Film Center, which is so now we can accept tax tax free donations. And so.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:19.449)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (28:26.567)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:26.809)
you

Annalouiza (28:29.201)
Good.

Annalouiza (28:39.249)
Good.

Annalouiza (28:44.136)
good, yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (28:46.542)
Yeah, we're ready to go. It's just a matter of me finishing this current job that I'm on so I can actually announce it.

Annalouiza (28:51.183)
Yes, if any listeners are out there who are film buffs, you know, go to his website and let's get this done so that we could. Yeah, so that we can all watch it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:58.797)
Yeah, there'll be an opportunity. Yeah, but this will probably post sometime in October. So by then it should be ready to go and people can go on and not only see what you've produced so far, but also contribute and participate. So thank you. Well, so it's really fascinating to think about this journey you've been on. Has it changed your sense of fear around death?

Brett Nicoletti (29:02.232)
Thank you.

Brett Nicoletti (29:06.302)
perfect.

Brett Nicoletti (29:15.032)
Thank you.

Annalouiza (29:20.293)
Ha ha ha.

Brett Nicoletti (29:26.462)
It has. So I think I'm now more comfortable with the actual end, right? Maybe I'm not all the way there yet, but I feel better than I did, let's say, five years ago. So the idea of like there being no more Brett physically in this space, I'm coming to terms with it. I would say if I had a fear of the end of life, it's more about just

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:33.258)
He he he he.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:39.321)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:48.921)
Mm-hmm.

Brett Nicoletti (29:55.0)
you know, physical and mental decline and just being concerned about what that looks like. I watched my grandfather go through Alzheimer's four or five years and it was just brutal. It was just, it really hard on all of us, especially my parents and my father's sister and her family and the person, you know, they are there of course, but it just, there's no recognition of who they used to be.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:57.198)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:06.328)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:20.579)
Yeah.

All right.

Brett Nicoletti (30:24.482)
The thought of that happening to me and having my children, family to have to see that, you know, that doesn't make me feel great, you know.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:32.543)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We actually just heard of and published in our newsletter a new study going on at, I think, where was it? the PSU, Portland State University. They're just starting a study and looking for people who are caregivers of Alzheimer's patients to do the study and talk about the impact on caregivers. So yeah, we've run into that many times and we've counseled people many times that have gone through it. And it's one of the hardest things anybody goes through, I think.

Annalouiza (30:56.561)
cuts.

Brett Nicoletti (31:02.37)
Yeah, for sure.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:02.521)
for the end of life. So yeah, thank you for sharing that.

Annalouiza (31:06.225)
So Brett, what do you wish we had asked you?

Brett Nicoletti (31:10.478)
I wish you asked me if I had any questions for you. So just curious, you're both, you you've been clearly very present in this space for a long time. What have you, if anything, have you learned about death since you started the podcast?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:13.529)
That's a good one,

Annalouiza (31:13.895)
We've never had that one, have we, Mokyo?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:34.243)
wow. Can we sum it up?

Brett Nicoletti (31:36.878)
Sure, yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. mean, just answer it however you'd like, yeah.

Annalouiza (31:36.933)
Yeah

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:40.129)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think for me the kind of the eye-opening things or the unique things have been the many ways people approach this. So we've got, we've had people doing puppet stories, we've had people doing music. We had somebody from Ireland teaching or learning about the really ancient, what they called, revenant songs, which are the songs to the dead. We've had many people talk about their connection with people who have died after the fact.

Annalouiza (31:49.165)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:09.046)
Those kind of things just really have been very impressive and very just also just like we said every single time we go, my God, there's people are just so amazing doing all this work.

Brett Nicoletti (32:22.99)
You know, like rich in zero awareness, right? Like a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:24.791)
Yeah, yeah, there's so much.

Annalouiza (32:26.501)
Yeah, there's so much. I think I, I'm delighted by, I think I know a lot about death and dying because I've been doing this for a long time. And then we learn about supporting people who are trans through the dying process. Right. And what that means. And then my brain just kind of like, you know, and, but I think for me personally, every single week when we are with people, I'm

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:45.859)
Hehehe.

Annalouiza (32:54.459)
I'm just so delighted that another person out there is being that weirdo at the dinner party talking about death. And I, as people are answering questions, I kind of reflect those things every week. And I love how we're all kind of in the same place, right? Like we're all just doing the best we can. want to share this information because we've had this awakening about the end. And we want to be like, you know, listen, like, so.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:58.657)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:17.068)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:20.416)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (33:20.763)
Yeah, I just, get it every week. I ground more into, I can't wait to die. Like.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:25.177)
I want to see what happens.

Brett Nicoletti (33:25.581)
Annalouiza (33:27.783)
I do. I'm so excited. I'm like, what's on the other side? Yeah, no, I'm so excited. I'm excited to go on this journey too. It's not like my kids are like, please, like, don't like die too soon. And I'm like, I will, I will go when I'm meant to go, but I want you to know that I have, my heart is open and I'm just like, okay, you know, like, ah,

Brett Nicoletti (33:28.43)
Wow. Amazing. That's amazing. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:35.683)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (33:41.688)
Right?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:41.718)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:48.857)
Yeah, and embracing it. Yeah, when you mentioned the trance thing, I think one of the other things that has really been impressive is the different cultural relationships with death and dying and ceremony that we've heard from many, many people. That's also been really enlightening and inspiring. So thanks for that question. That's a very good question. Yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (33:50.658)
Wow, wow, that's beautiful.

Annalouiza (33:59.396)
Yes.

Annalouiza (34:06.823)
Yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (34:08.75)
For sure. Yeah, you're welcome.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:14.425)
The one thing before we end, did ask, we usually ask if there's a way that you take care of yourself. You know, if you like resource yourself when you're, when you're having a hard time. mean, I'm sure with all these things you've talked about, there must be some times you're like, my God, how can I do another day? Right.

Annalouiza (34:19.156)
I missed it.

Brett Nicoletti (34:29.486)
Yeah, I mean, I'm a bit of an exercise buff. Specifically, I'm a trail runner. So we've got lots of great trails. Oh yeah, you too? Amazing. Yeah. We've got lots of great trails here in Pasadena's San Gabriel Mountains. But one thing that I think is germane to this conversation is that

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:36.279)
Hmm

Brett Nicoletti (34:54.54)
I am two blocks below the Eaton Canyon entrance, which is where the big fire was in January, the Eaton fire. Our house was miraculously saved, but the canyon, all the trails that I run on daily, every other day burned severely as everybody saw on their television. And they have since closed those trails and have not reopened them. So I am mourning.

Annalouiza (34:58.766)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:14.211)
Well...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:19.513)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (35:24.315)
Yes.

Brett Nicoletti (35:24.654)
my loss of my nature. I is my, I mean, I'm not kidding when I say it's my second home. I've thought about having my ashes spread in that canyon because it's such a sacred space for me. And to not be able to go in there and release the stress of my life and think about, it's very meditative as I'm sure, and Louisa, you would agree.

Annalouiza (35:27.365)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:27.595)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (35:31.974)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (35:36.303)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:36.408)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:49.475)
reason.

Annalouiza (35:50.791)
you

Brett Nicoletti (35:52.844)
I don't wear headphones or anything like that. I just like to listen to my feet and the birds and whatever else is going on. Yeah. And it's very special. And so I hope if I could, if any of the powers that be at the Angeles National Forest is listening, please, please let us back in.

Annalouiza (35:54.521)
Nope. Yeah. Me too.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:58.691)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (36:01.831)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (36:12.313)
Yeah. Well, let me offer this to you too, Brett. There is a loss. There's a death there, not only for you, but the Eden. Yeah, well, the animals, the trees, the plants, right? So maybe find a way to go right to the boundary and do ceremony and say, I bear witness to your loss as well, because we always think like, I don't get it, because I have the same feeling.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:12.505)
I hope that happens.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:23.277)
community. Yeah. Yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (36:24.27)
Yeah. yeah.

yes.

Annalouiza (36:39.207)
Like, oh, I can't go into my favorite places. Well, you know, it's also missing you. That space misses you too. So that's a way for you to start connecting with what does ceremony mean, what does ritual mean, and bearing witness to your life.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:45.394)
Mm. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:56.909)
Yeah, beautiful, Yeah, yeah. Well, it's been a great pleasure and a great honor to spend time with you today. Thank you so much for joining us. You brought us a quote you could read for us and maybe tell us a little bit about it.

Brett Nicoletti (36:58.082)
That's a great suggestion. Thank you.

Annalouiza (37:06.746)
Mm-hmm.

Brett Nicoletti (37:09.218)
Thank you.

Brett Nicoletti (37:14.35)
I did. So this is from my friend, Michelle Wolfesteg, who's been my friend for a year and a half now. She's the director of the Southern California Hospice Foundation. I've talked to her on the phone, dozens of times at this point. I've sat down and interviewed her now on camera, I think three times, and then B-roll. And she has an incredible story. If anybody wants to look her up, she's a stroke survivor herself. She had a near death experience. And that...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:19.958)
Heh.

Brett Nicoletti (37:43.668)
experience propelled her career in hospice. And it's a really heroic story that she tells. She's written a book. And so this is a quote that she said to me during one of our interviews. And it is, you can't live until you know that you're dying. And we're all dying. From the minute that you're born, you're already moving towards your death. Once you realize that and you know that every day is a gift.

Annalouiza (37:46.629)
Mmm, cool.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:47.512)
Hmm.

Brett Nicoletti (38:13.472)
It makes you live fuller and love more.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:16.781)
Yeah, Amen to that. Sounds like somebody we should have on the podcast. Maybe you can. Yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (38:20.226)
Yep. Yes. She will absolutely do it. Yeah, just say the word. Yeah. For sure. I will.

Annalouiza (38:22.023)
He should introduce us. Brett, hook us up.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:27.129)
Yeah, introduce us to us or that'd be great. Well, thank you so much, Brett. I really appreciate you and your work and really looking forward to that film when it finally gets done. Yeah.

Annalouiza (38:27.929)
Okay. Yeah.

Annalouiza (38:33.649)
Yeah.

Brett Nicoletti (38:36.974)
Thank you.

Annalouiza (38:37.061)
Yeah, blessings on your journey, definitely. And holler at me if you need anybody from Denver Film, because we also have a little film series here. Maybe we could sneak you in.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:46.649)
Yeah. All right.

Brett Nicoletti (38:46.808)
Collaborate. Yeah, let's do it. Well, thank you. Thank you both. Appreciate you as well and have an amazing day. Thanks.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:54.573)
You too. Take care.

Annalouiza (38:54.695)
Thank you. Adios.

Brett Nicoletti (39:02.786)
good.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:03.617)
Yep, yep, you're good. Yeah, it's all up to you. It's good. Go ahead and just log off. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (39:03.749)
Yeah, it is.

Brett Nicoletti (39:08.268)
Okay.

Annalouiza (39:13.029)
Of course, of course, another fabulous human being who is like, I feel like we're going to be the like the cool kids someday. some. Yeah, well, I feel like, you know, so many people are coming into the death and dying arena and they all kind of like smack into it in different ways, like, whoops. And then here they are. And suddenly we're like in this circle of people who are like responding with their whole essence to dying.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:20.953)
Yeah, the ones who are able to do this, right? Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:32.461)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:40.523)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (39:42.587)
And I think they're pretty freaking cool. I'm like, yeah, I know.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:45.183)
I think so too. And wow, making a film, dedicating so much time and energy and love into that film and wow, and others doing that other work. I mean, just what I love is that that work has brought him so much closer to understanding it and being with it and noticing it. Yeah, we all need some way to get there. And that's a wonderful way to get there. Create something. And like our last guest, create art, you know.

Annalouiza (39:58.587)
Yes.

Annalouiza (40:05.21)
It is a wonderful, yeah. Yep. Well, and the fact that it's impelled him to like go and explore the open air cremation in the States. It's like, like he like went there. He's created a connection, which I find just phenomenal because that's what we all need to do is just connect more and to help one another this way. So all right. Adios. Ciao.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:14.059)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:22.361)
Brilliant. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:27.255)
Yeah. Amen. Much love. Adios, my dear.