Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:03.462)
Welcome everyone. I am the Reverend Wakil David Matthews. On today's episode, we are speaking with Jessica Sadler. Jessica is the founder of Dawn of Aging in Virginia Beach. She focuses on education and outreach to local micro resources to the death and dying community. Very important. So glad you're doing that. She's actively building networks among doulas and local care providers. And I want to talk to you more about that. Her commitment to collaboration ensures that clients are matched with professionals best suited to their specific situations.

Annalouiza (00:38.338)
Yes. And I am the Reverend Mother Annalouiza Armendariz. Jessica, through her online presence and community outreach, fosters open conversations about aging, death and dying, and destigmatizes these topics, encouraging proactive planning and informed decision making among clients and their families. Jessica's 17-year tenure as a certified prosthetistist or thoughtist.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (01:06.552)
Cool.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:08.126)
Ha ha.

Annalouiza (01:08.344)
Did I say it right? Proth, prosthetist. It's such a fun word. has she has provided her, has provided her with a deep insights into the physical and emotional challenges faced by individuals with terminal complications, trauma and disabilities. This experience enables her to empathize with caretakers and staff of individuals needing care, which I.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (01:09.677)
Prostitutes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:11.144)
Bastardists.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (01:14.527)
It is a fun one.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:15.956)
Hahaha

Annalouiza (01:37.362)
love these stories, by the way. And she has integrated Swedish death cleaning into her practice and guides clients through the process of more purposeful possessions. This approach not only eases the transition for clients, but also alleviates the burden on their families, fostering a sense of peace and closure. You're like a Wonder Woman. I love it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:38.526)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:57.822)
Wow, that's so cool. Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (02:01.81)
duals that happen to be jack of all trades for sure.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:04.882)
Right? Yeah, yeah. I love the idea of what you say, purposeful processions. Yeah, that's a great way to put it. Yeah. I always in my class, I say, okay, look around yourself, think about what else is in your basement, in your garage, and in your house, and your storage. What's gonna happen to all that stuff? And wow, just spending time ahead of time thinking about.

Annalouiza (02:04.938)
Yes.

Annalouiza (02:12.002)
Possessions, yes.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (02:12.064)
Yeah, purposeful positions. Pick what the things are around you.

Annalouiza (02:27.256)
Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (02:27.848)
stuff. Yeah.

Annalouiza (02:30.509)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:31.26)
what do I really need to keep and who do I want to give it to? It's just one of the biggest things we can do for our beloved. So yeah, thanks for that work. Yeah. We always like to start by asking when you first became aware of death.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (02:37.898)
Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (02:45.57)
So I grew up on a farm and so like a lot of your people that you've interviewed, it starts with animals, right? So animals, death with animals is imminent on farms. It's necessary. So you get used to animals being food, but then like I grew up also being trained to be a caretaker, caretaker of animals, a caretaker.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:48.628)
Well, there you go.

Annalouiza (02:51.15)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:52.638)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (02:58.593)
Always.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (03:11.626)
of the land that they live on, a caretaker of machinery that keeps that land and the animals going. So just kind of ingrained in me from generations just to be a caretaker. It just naturally kind of moves into your careers.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:27.316)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (03:28.81)
Yeah. So I do appreciate that you have an early formative death awareness with animals. And I got, I have the luxury of having talked to you before this. I'm, you know, I have, I have stories that I want you to talk about, but, but no, no, no. But, but, you know, I do, I want you to think about how death has been circling around. And I want to say circling actually, how has it informed your whole life and the careers that you've chosen?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:42.649)
Hehehehehe

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (03:44.172)
Okay.

Annalouiza (03:58.167)
And the awareness you bring into these careers, The work that you've done.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (04:04.064)
You think for me it's just... Sorry.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:04.392)
Yeah, I won't. I say we won't try to say that word again, but we'd love to hear how that what it's supposed to be or how that worked.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (04:08.802)
So, so prostatis orthatis basically it's a biomechanical engineer for people with lost limbs. So disease, diabetes, trauma, when they lose their limbs you replace them with biomechanical devices. But just like growing up with farm animals and loss, it really just gives you a sense of reality, I think, and like acceptance.

Annalouiza (04:10.294)
Ross.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:17.863)
okay.

Annalouiza (04:26.286)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:27.668)
Right?

Annalouiza (04:35.394)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:35.668)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (04:37.696)
And when you can just kind of like dive into like, yeah, that's gonna happen. This is gonna happen. This is part of it. I think if you're just ingrained with that at a young age, you just learn to communicate it. And it's never really a secret on a farm. You're always talking about it. And so for me as a doula, I'm, let's talk about it. Let's talk about all of it. It's like, there's no topic. I'm like, colonoscopy is death, whatever. Whatever you wanna talk about, I'm in.

Annalouiza (05:07.448)
Yes, right.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (05:08.982)
So it just brings reality to your whole life, really.

Annalouiza (05:11.854)
Right, right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:12.168)
Yeah, yeah, so cool. I love that. I actually wondered when I read that about how that would affect your work as a doula as far as helping people who probably maybe funeral directors or whoever don't know how to deal with prosthetics and that kind of thing. Do you come up to that? Does that happen at times or is it?

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (05:32.086)
I haven't. mean, when I was a prosthetist working in the field, people would have loved ones die with prosthetics and they would just drop them off at our office. I think most people, they don't get buried with them for, I mean, I'm sure you can be, but a lot of people think that they can drop them off for like donations and parts and stuff like that. So that's always helpful. We always send them to organizations in Africa and other countries to donate those parts. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:45.396)
Right?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:52.34)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (05:59.567)
Well, and going back to that career that you had and the story that I heard previously, you know, we have, think all humans, all of us have a sense that there's losses happening around us. And I really appreciated hearing the story that you gave me about when a client no longer shows up and you know that they have left and nobody's informed you as a service provider. Right. And

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (06:21.75)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:25.246)
Right?

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (06:28.673)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (06:29.27)
And there is a sense like, will miss that person. I hope, I wonder what happened, right?

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (06:34.613)
Yeah, part of my current role really is just focusing on caretakers and the people that care for people who are dying or ill or in nursing homes, memory care, dementia, all those things. The vibrant web of people that experience loss of a person is absolutely wild, right? And so you have your, what would you call it?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:59.069)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (06:59.518)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (07:02.91)
acceptable griever, where society has like an idea, an image of an acceptable griever, where you're allowed to grieve somebody. And usually that remains in your direct family unit, right? Your spouse, your parent, your child. It doesn't really include best friends. Think about like the reasons that you would be allowed to leave work, right? Your bereavement leave. And so many times you're forced to just like be

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:05.385)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (07:05.824)
Mm-hmm, right, right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:10.772)
Sure.

Annalouiza (07:17.859)
Right.

Annalouiza (07:23.288)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:26.929)
All right.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (07:33.172)
in your job, be in your life and everyone around you is like, why are you upset about your mailman dying? Like I only saw him every single day, but okay, I won't be upset for you. So I think a lot of times like caregivers, I was a practitioner, like I think more along the lines of like a memory care unit or a nursing facility where

Annalouiza (07:33.506)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (07:39.342)
That's right, right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:46.1)
Mm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (07:59.2)
You know, those caretakers, they don't make a lot of money, but they work 40, 50, 60 hours a week taking care of these people in those units. And they spend more time with those people than maybe their families ever did. And they get really attached. They keep them safe. They keep them clean. They feed them. They make sure that they have someone to talk to. And then one day, maybe you come in for your shift and poof, that person's passed away. my gosh.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:08.392)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (08:12.59)
Mm-hmm.

Build bonds.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (08:26.421)
And then maybe your job is to clean out that room and you might get that one day, but it's a business. These places are businesses. And so the next day you come in for your shift, most likely there's gonna be someone else in that room and you're gonna have to kind of put on your face and welcome them and make them feel like they belong, right? So who's taking care of the caretakers? Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:26.451)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:31.593)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:45.683)
Mm.

Yeah, wow. Such a good point. Such a good point. And then so many different, like you were talking about, the work you were doing, you were one of those caregivers, even though, and just, it's very rare, I think, for people to keep a list. It's one of the things I suggest in the class is to keep a list of all of your caregivers and all of your vendors and all of the people you work with, because everybody's gonna want to know, probably.

Annalouiza (08:49.015)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (08:52.619)
So physics-

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (09:09.813)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (09:15.054)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:15.96)
even if it's just because they want to be paid. But in any case, just, yeah, yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (09:19.167)
Yeah, well, not just that, just the web expands past that. It's your neighbors. your teachers. Children grieve their teachers, but they don't get bereavement leave. You have community members. You have the people that you go to the gym with or your pickleball team or your book club or your coworkers. There's so many people that you hear about someone's

Annalouiza (09:25.675)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:28.116)
Exactly.

Yeah, that was so true.

Annalouiza (09:31.191)
Right?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:38.132)
Yeah, right.

Annalouiza (09:38.862)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:43.837)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (09:48.935)
loss and you're just like wow and it affects you and I think we just have to normalize not expecting somebody to only grieve with certain people.

Annalouiza (09:58.124)
Right, right. You know, just, just occurred to me, like I have lived in the same neighborhood for 30 years. I walked twice a day. There are people whose names I don't know who are elderly and every single day I know they'll be out there watering their sunflowers and I'll like, good morning, you know, and it's true. I won't know when they pass and yet I will mourn their loss, but there is nobody who will come out and be like, Hey neighbors, like mom died. Like, you know, just needed to do to know.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:59.322)
very true. Well...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:13.822)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (10:15.407)
No.

Annalouiza (10:27.991)
Like, I wish that...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:28.051)
Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (10:28.277)
will say this, so on Facebook there's those neighborhood Facebook pages and there is our page, our page actually does do that. There was a woman who died like about a couple months ago. She was in her late 90s and someone had posted that she had passed and the whole neighborhood had known her for forever. I've only been in this neighborhood for a few years. So, but yeah, I mean, I think maybe social media makes that more common. I don't know, maybe.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:32.818)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (10:33.28)
Uh-huh.

Annalouiza (10:38.464)
Really?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:43.721)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (10:47.469)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:51.326)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (10:51.917)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (10:56.984)
Right. I do love it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:57.3)
That's a possibility, Yeah, we have a separate, I think it's called Nextdoor. that is, yeah. And I haven't seen it used for that, but I think I might let people know they should do that, right? Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (10:58.239)
Uh-huh.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (11:03.872)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (11:04.215)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (11:08.961)
You could start something.

Annalouiza (11:09.005)
I might too. Yeah, I might start something because I was like, this is a very elder laden neighborhood I'm in. and, and I love these folks and you know, I will be sad when I don't see them doing their ritual morning things. Right. So, and, and because I want to normalize this, like let's, Hey, what was her name anyway? She always watered, like, you know, let's have a little thing for her.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:17.011)
Yeah, mine too.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (11:17.025)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:34.576)
haha

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (11:37.174)
Yeah, walk up to her, ask her what her name is. Yeah. But you also have like pet companions, you know, your pets grieves and your online communities, there's Gen Z who are maybe younger millennials as well. They're really into gaming, right? And so when they lose somebody in their gaming community, it's wild how...

Annalouiza (11:39.337)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Anyhow, yes. Okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:39.856)
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's great.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:48.412)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the pets.

Annalouiza (11:48.641)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (11:55.117)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:00.019)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (12:00.184)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (12:05.491)
They really do connect and gather together and support each other. It's intense.

Annalouiza (12:07.981)
Hmm?

Huh.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:11.004)
Wow. Yeah. So I think that the takeaway really for us is how much, how important it is to really think about how many other people your lives, your life could be touching and who would want to know, and how, do you make sure that that's, yeah, that it's a broadcast or that, know, that somebody, yeah.

Annalouiza (12:17.985)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (12:28.257)
Yeah, that you don't even know you've affected. There's that whole, I don't know who said it or where it came from, but one of my favorite quotes is, you don't know all the people that you're gonna love or that are gonna love you until your last breath. And you might affect deeply that person that just started work today and they're sitting with you during your last breath. And you just don't know, so.

Annalouiza (12:28.565)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:40.668)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (12:43.39)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (12:48.875)
Right. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:49.14)
Yeah, yeah. We had a chef on who works with the seniors just a little bit ago and his whole way of thinking about how much he loved those people and how much he cared for them. And was just beautiful and probably not really pretty unique, I think, in that place that somebody works there just really felt a connection. So yeah, that's the kind of thing that we could pay more attention to, I believe. So I really appreciate that. Yeah.

Annalouiza (12:53.047)
Hmm

Annalouiza (13:07.117)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (13:13.611)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (13:17.323)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (13:19.081)
out.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:20.387)
You've kind of told us a little bit, but can you tell us a little more about your current work that you're doing?

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (13:26.013)
oof. So everything all at once. And yeah, so right now I'm working on something. I'm trying to get like a community resource together for micro businesses that help with healing arts. Right. So you have birth doulas, you have death doulas, but you have everything in between as well. You have grief coaches, have, you know, metaphysical healers, reiki and sound healing and

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:27.54)
Everything all the time.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (13:56.017)
and transformational coaches. And there's just so many solopreneurs that are out there just one at a time in it. And one of my favorite movies is Brother, Where Art Thou? And it's like, we're not one at a time in it here, we're mass communicating. So I think like there's just a, there's a loss in when you're diagnosed with something and your head spinning and the chaos begins.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:04.392)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (14:12.365)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:12.85)
Yeah

Annalouiza (14:16.523)
Mm-hmm

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (14:25.842)
where do you start? Right? You don't, the last thing you want to do is go on a goose chase, finding these resources that can help you heal to the end. Right? Maybe you're not going to cure yourself, but there are modalities that can help you live a better life to the end. And where are those people? all trying, we don't have the resources to funnel ourselves out into the universe.

Annalouiza (14:27.519)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:35.742)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (14:35.853)
Right.

Annalouiza (14:39.405)
You'll be supported.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (14:53.15)
We don't have the funds to market ourselves in a big way. And so really, we're all word of mouth-ing and we're all just kind of struggling to get ourselves out there. So I'm working on things to like really just get a better referral source together or a one-stop shop hub type of co-op type of something. And I know they do exist in other states, but Virginia is a little behind the times. So, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:56.862)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (15:02.359)
That's right.

Annalouiza (15:12.525)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:21.364)
Yeah, that reminds me of an idea we've been thinking about is the idea of finding, maybe building, creating some kind of nonprofit, which was a collaboration between attorneys and doulas and funeral homes and et cetera that would help people who are having trouble with resources or don't have the right, you know, have friends or family they can talk to that need fiduciary people to be their healthcare agents but don't have anybody they could trust or...

Annalouiza (15:22.369)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (15:42.957)
Thank you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:51.09)
And that would start with just what you're talking about. So I'm really interested in maybe keeping in touch and finding out how you manage that and maybe some ideas for me about that.

Annalouiza (15:54.285)
It's a hub.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (16:00.169)
Yeah, one of the things that I'm trying to incorporate in it is like not a not for profit, definitely for profit because we all have to make a living. But I would really like to form something where you like would pay rent into a system and then be in charge of your own schedule, be in charge of your own money, but have a place to do business. But then if you're going to be part of that revolving team, you're required.

Annalouiza (16:08.343)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:15.796)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (16:21.069)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (16:26.762)
to do pro bono hours. so potentially if you have 30 or 40 resources through your system every month, that's a lot of hours that you can require people to do and not take away from their rental hours. So yeah, mean, everything we're doing, we understand that there are more people that need it, but then there are people who can pay for it. And a lot of those people...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:28.904)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:36.659)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (16:36.717)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (16:42.091)
Right, right, right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:42.471)
Mm-hmm.

Good.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:50.386)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:52.641)
Right.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (16:54.492)
are happy to donate into systems to help others.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:57.85)
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that model. Thank you for sharing it.

Annalouiza (16:59.287)
Yeah. And I do love that. you know, also, it reminds two things. One is if people have the financial resources and the information to ask for help, like through a hospice, right? Like not everybody does because not everybody knows. And hospice will show up with a social worker, a chaplain, a nurse, doctor, whatever. Like there's five people who show up to support the family. But if you don't have that support, you're like just

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:17.726)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (17:29.227)
like wing in it, like you said. So I do love the idea of a hub. It's kind of like a food court, right? And, and it's like, you know, I really, I am anxious about this whole process and a life like what, what do I, what could I possibly be? How could I be supported? Reiki sound healing massages, talk therapy. Okay. Well, and now I still need to like figure out like, I don't have a

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (17:36.736)
Exactly, yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (17:50.442)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (17:57.016)
funeral plot and I'm just by myself. Who do I talk to? There's a fiduciary, there's an advanced care director planner, there's a death doula, right? Like, so in this court, you could just be like, okay, this is what I do. And maybe have some advocates there because also when you're in that pressed up against that timeline, it's scary and you don't even know how to articulate what it is that you need. So I love this. I...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:07.156)
Thank

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:10.856)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:14.846)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (18:18.336)
Yeah. So as a death doula, part of my shtick, if you will, is like doing exactly that. So like the most important thing I think a doula can do, and since we all spread ourselves so thin and we do so many different things, it's impossible to advertise all those things. And so, you know, the most important thing is to get somebody in there early, as we all know earlier the better, but like,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:23.764)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (18:26.957)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:37.001)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:46.098)
Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (18:46.354)
really, who are you? What do you need? What's your resources? Who's your support system? What are they able to do? And then like find those resources. like this is what kind of appeals to me in doing this project is being doing exactly that is getting somebody in there and being like, do you even want any of this service? Maybe you're not into the woo woo stuff and you're not interested in any of that. That's fine. But like we also have lawyers here every Tuesday. We have, you know,

Annalouiza (19:04.343)
Mm-hmm.

Right, right, right, right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:14.984)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (19:15.629)
Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (19:16.734)
give them all the options and then have a rotating services. So it's never just like one person in one room. It's just rotating. So when do you need that service? They're here on that day. And I call myself a closure curator.

Annalouiza (19:19.693)
That's right.

Annalouiza (19:24.471)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:26.356)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (19:28.749)
Right. I love that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:34.534)
Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (19:34.925)
Beautiful, yeah, I love it. I can almost see you, it's like a realtor who's walking through somebody's house with their clipboard and they're just like, you know, did we do this? Did we do that? Okay, you know, it's like, I love that.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (19:44.212)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:47.431)
You

Yeah, yeah, beautiful. Absolutely.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (19:51.22)
I think it's needed. think just like we've talked about, it's when people are in that chaos, you just don't want to, you don't know what's out there because you haven't been through it. So now like what is available if someone just laid out the list for you and said, all of this is available, cross off what you're not interested in. What's the priority today? And then we can help kind of guide people to the things that they need, that they want, that they care about. Wasted time is not.

Annalouiza (19:53.772)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:08.084)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (20:09.707)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (20:13.858)
Right.

Annalouiza (20:18.583)
Yep.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:19.668)
That's, yeah, yeah, yeah. And people who are grieving often have no idea what they need or want. And so having somebody there who's an advocate who can just kind of be there as a friend, as an listener, and then, you know, have the knowledge and the skills to be able to say, this is what might be next for you. What do you think? You know, that kind of thing. That's so great. Yeah. Well, I can't wait to talk some more and make this happen. Yeah, we do.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (20:21.605)
not good at the end of life.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (20:28.287)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (20:41.203)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (20:45.045)
Yes, I know. We need one in every state. And so I, you know, yes.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (20:46.431)
I hope so. Every city, because I live in Virginia Beach and it's kind of like, it's a decent sized city. But we're right next to Norfolk, which is the largest Navy base in the world. So we have a rotating group of people here all the time that don't have, you know, the military does things, but it doesn't provide all resources. So, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:50.547)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (20:56.044)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:01.118)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:09.876)
Right. Yeah. And you have to be a vet. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Cool. So next. What's next? Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (21:21.265)
next

Annalouiza (21:21.965)
it's me. It's me. Woo. So what are your challenges that you encounter being in this heartfelt dream and support realm that you're in?

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (21:33.663)
I think you kind of gave me inspiration for this answer last week when we spoke because, and I've talked to other people about this before, but it kind of like just all came together. Death care should not be online. And I feel like a lot of doulas are just creating online schools or creating online classes or doing Zoom calls all over the country. And I...

Annalouiza (21:48.343)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (21:56.141)
You

Annalouiza (22:02.445)
You

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (22:02.704)
I do, although I don't do, I don't have a school program, but I do Zoom calls and I do help people on the other coast. Death care can't be online. I think when you're dying and you're diagnosed with something, the last thing you want to do is sign on to Zoom and be like, is my doula available now? Like, can I speak to her? Like it just, I think COVID drew us so far inward and

Annalouiza (22:21.228)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (22:28.667)
made online everything acceptable and I think people are craving touch and craving people around them and the energy that they give. just I think our biggest challenge is just getting out there and when you're sick you don't want to get out there and meet people. So it's like where's the fine line between advertising and marketing yourself online and then getting people to know that they can use you in person.

Annalouiza (22:31.723)
Right. Yes.

Right.

Annalouiza (22:42.674)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (22:54.497)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:55.9)
Right. Yeah. And that really speaks to the importance of creating these community hubs as you're talking about, because if people don't have any way to get to anybody and they have to use zoom, it's good that that's there. It's sort of like, well, we have that tool if we need it. if we can create these hubs where, yeah, if we can create these hubs where you can have access to people in person, three dimensional, you know, and see their legs and, you know,

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (23:02.26)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (23:10.605)
Right, if it's needed.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (23:18.708)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (23:19.329)
Mm-hmm. Well, and

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (23:21.439)
And then also I think it's important to see like, if you can find birth doulas with death doulas, you have a pregnant person going in to have a healing session or acupuncture or whatever it might be, and then out walks a dying person and it completes that circle of life. gives people more empathy of like, this is life. We're all kind of going through it and maybe I'm getting the same treatment as someone else is getting the same treatment. And it shows people like,

Annalouiza (23:40.077)
of life, right? Right.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (23:50.705)
All of that is available to all of us. Yeah.

Annalouiza (23:52.972)
Right. it's a natural progression, right? Like, you don't just kind of bifurcate death and birth, right? But in my head, it's like, I want to be sitting with somebody so when I sense that sob coming up, I can push the box of tissues over to them because it's the act. It's the silence. It's like, right? Yeah, this whole online thing is just getting a little too.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (23:57.449)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:23.191)
And we're forgetting we're human beings who need certain things to happen in person.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (24:26.939)
I think too, like the shame and guilt of grieving and talking about death and your own mortality, it's a shame. Society shames you for it. You're a failure. You're losing the battle, right? And so I think when you're in person and people like, they start to talk about things and then they're like, no, maybe I shouldn't say that. It's too much, too morbid to, I don't wanna acknowledge that I might die because I'm still citing.

Annalouiza (24:31.149)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:35.265)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:40.235)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:51.329)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:54.989)
Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (24:55.487)
When you're in person with them, you can be like, no, man, give it to me. Just give it to me straight. And I'm like, I'm a person. Maybe your daughter doesn't want to hear it. Maybe your husband doesn't want to hear it. But I'm right here. You can tell me anything. And I'm not going to judge you. I'm going to acknowledge exactly what you say because it's true to you. And it's how you're feeling now. And if people can't get it out, then it just instills that fear in them a little bit more.

Annalouiza (25:00.055)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (25:05.599)
Mm-hmm. I'm available. That's right.

Annalouiza (25:14.603)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (25:24.279)
Yeah, and it's just creating more trauma, right? It's another level of trauma that somebody who is at the end of life, like, doesn't need to be kind of like packing it in and keeping it in there.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (25:27.007)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:35.272)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right,

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (25:35.999)
That's the time to let it out. Right?

Annalouiza (25:41.931)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:43.56)
Yeah, great. Does anything frighten you about the end of life for yourself?

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (25:48.479)
I've had some near death situations. I've had some health problems and I don't. I just don't fear it. I maybe if, I don't know, I've come pretty close. So I've really just worried more about my animals. just, don't like, are they gonna be taken care of the way that they need to be taken care of? And are they gonna be allowed to grieve?

Annalouiza (25:57.805)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:05.523)
Hahaha.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (26:14.014)
So it's like when they're all sad, are people just gonna rush them through that? Or are they gonna be like, man, this dog's sad, it's okay. We'll just give him some space. I don't know, I'm very attached to my animals. But as a death thing, think most people just grieve potential. What do I want to accomplish? What do I want to do someday? And I think people fear if they die that...

Annalouiza (26:14.344)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:18.376)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (26:18.487)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:21.597)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (26:21.794)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (26:26.711)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:26.76)
Yeah, yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (26:42.194)
that's not going to happen. We're not going to do those things. And I think just like the answer to that is every day pick the thing that makes you the most happy. You you don't have to live your best life every minute, but pick your best thing, even if it's like the way home from work. Take a different route that like drives you by something exciting and that you like. And that's a better day. So.

Annalouiza (26:55.009)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (27:00.492)
Right.

Annalouiza (27:07.671)
Mm-hmm.

yes, Jessica. I do too. But do your pets have advanced care director plans or somebody to take care of them if in case you are not there?

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (27:11.634)
Hello.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:11.656)
Yeah, I love that.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (27:18.376)
They do. They do. Their food bins are right here and they have taped paper to them. yeah, like they like this. They eat this. They hate this. Don't take this dog to the vet. Yeah, absolutely.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:26.9)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (27:27.309)
I love that. Of course you do. Yeah. that is such a good plan. I need to do that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:31.837)
great.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:35.316)
So they have their own doggy posts.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (27:39.134)
They do. They do. Because if I'm in an accident and somebody's like, oh my gosh, he has dogs, and someone comes over to get my dogs, hopefully. I mean, you got to. It's such a simple, dumb thing to have to do. It really just makes somebody's life easier. And my one dog is actually 12 years old, and I adopted him two years ago. Someone had left him at the shelter that had him.

Annalouiza (27:39.277)
Ha!

Yes?

Annalouiza (27:49.13)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:50.814)
they gonna do?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:55.476)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:00.072)
I love that idea, yeah, definitely.

Annalouiza (28:00.14)
Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (28:07.613)
their whole life and I have such minimal information on this dog that I'm just learning who this dog is as a senior and so he might sit here and just talk to me and whine about something at the same time every day and I have no clue what but he had that relationship with somebody so the more information that you can just write down all the silly things that they do and their fears and yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:15.796)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (28:15.917)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:22.932)
Haha.

Annalouiza (28:32.555)
Yeah. you're such a good mom. You're such a good fur baby mom, you know, and I just, I just remembered I for like, I think like 10 years, I had this little sticker that I got at the firehouse and you know, in case of a fire, like there's a dog back then I had my bearded dragon. And so like I needed to make sure my bearded dragon was going to be safe in case of a fire. And I, you know, I got rid of that. And I'm like, wait a second, like we've got guinea pigs. Come get the guinea pigs, you know,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:34.878)
Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (28:37.787)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (29:01.493)
Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (29:03.71)
Yeah, you beat me by far on your bearded dragon story. You like ten-upped me on that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:08.648)
Yeah

Annalouiza (29:09.869)
There was no, but listen, there is no hierarchy here. I love your story. So Wachil, I took Khaleesi, my bearded dragon's ashes to Australia last year when I was there. And then she had mentioned that she had put it in a garden. It was called garden pot. And I was like.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (29:29.608)
Yep. He's just in it. He's in a potted plant outside a big potted plant. He's teramating.

Annalouiza (29:33.377)
That is so cool. And I was like, wait, that's cool. I was like, that's so awesome. I love that. So no hierarchies here, baby.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:41.042)
Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (29:41.384)
Yeah, but like you took your like you you still win. That's so in.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:45.992)
Going to Australia, yeah.

Annalouiza (29:48.492)
You know, it was just, there's no winning. I don't want you to say that. I just want you to know that it just happened and it was on a spiritual journey. So I'll send you pictures of her little ashes that I spread in a little altar that I made. It was fun only because I'm a ritualist babe. That's the only reason.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (29:55.932)
It's a pretty cool story, taking a bearded dragon back to Australia in their native land. That's pretty cool.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:57.981)
It's a great story.

That's pretty awesome.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (30:05.512)
Aww. So cute.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:06.964)
Very cool, very cool. Yeah, yeah, it's all about ritual.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (30:13.383)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (30:15.445)
Okay, where are we? how do you keep yourself resourced when you're doing this? Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (30:21.534)
Resource. Yeah, so education is everything, right? So if you're not teaching people to rethink the way that they think about deaths, they're never going to address it. And so I realize that doing tables at senior events is not the answer because they see that you're a death doula and they about face as fast as possible.

Annalouiza (30:44.237)
you

Annalouiza (30:48.973)
And I like.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:49.044)
Yeah

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (30:50.662)
Yeah, they're like, I don't need that now. I don't need that. And they don't even take your card. They don't want to know who you are. so I think I realized that addressing seniors, although the older we get, the more likely you're going to die. It's a statistical thing. But I just don't think that's the people that are ready to, although they should be, address the obvious. And so I'm

Annalouiza (30:56.811)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:06.845)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (31:06.849)
Ha ha ha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:16.084)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (31:18.192)
actually planning something with a local legacy vault builder. she does online legacy vaults like emergency binders. And her and I are planning an event probably in February about the sandwich generation, which is essentially what we talked about earlier, the caregivers, right? So when you're...

Annalouiza (31:24.397)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:31.603)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (31:40.525)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:41.054)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:44.788)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (31:45.261)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (31:48.146)
You have all this stuff, you have your house, your husband, your kids, your job, and then your dying parent comes back. That's you're the sandwich generation. You're taking care of everybody and yourself and your parents. And it's too much. It's too much. And people need to know the resources and they don't know where to find them. So I think like the moral of the story is like resource finding. Like how do we how do we get that in place where people

Annalouiza (31:52.023)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:59.465)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (31:59.566)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (32:07.468)
Right.

Annalouiza (32:12.683)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:12.968)
Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (32:17.623)
know where to look or know that there are options. You don't have to know all the options, but you have to know where to look. So I just feel like there's that there are resource. There's a bunch of websites that I've I've just found out about. Couldn't even tell you right now, but amazing websites and resources. But if you don't know that it exists in the time when you need it. It's not any good. It's not doing anybody good.

Annalouiza (32:20.045)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:25.065)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (32:25.175)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:38.546)
Yep. Yeah.

Annalouiza (32:39.039)
Right. Right.

Yeah.

It's too bad that, you know, so I started getting my AARP newsletter like a couple of years ago and you know, I skimmed through it. You know, it's, it hasn't created a thing for me yet because I'm 56. I'm not what I think. I'm not the person, but I wonder if in the fifties, if there were like an AARP newsletter and they'd say if you have, cause in your fifties, you could potentially have 70, 80, 90 year old.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:53.16)
Hehehe.

Annalouiza (33:16.045)
parents. That's where we would be like, Hey, like if you are having, if you're, if you're in your middle of your, well, it's not midlife anymore, but if in your fifties and you have aging parents, have you considered some of these things? Because I think us as 50 year olds, mean, I have two older parents, I have a disabled daughter. And so it's like, I'm also doing that. Whoa, whoa. Right. and I know how to find resources, but maybe others.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (33:19.249)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:25.949)
Yeah

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (33:30.001)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:38.578)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:44.596)
Absolutely.

Annalouiza (33:45.001)
at our age could benefit from that because our elders are like, heck no, that's too weird, that's too morbid.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:50.962)
Right.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (33:51.294)
think it's more along the lines of like, it's that emergency, right? And so you're going around, you're going along your life, you're living your dream, you're doing your thing. And then all of a sudden, bam, something happens, a diagnosis happens, a sudden death happens. Oh my God, well, I still have to go to work tomorrow. The kids still have to go to school tomorrow. Ah, ah, right? And so that's the problem is that people...

Annalouiza (33:55.629)
You're right.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:10.003)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (34:10.071)
Right?

Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:14.631)
haha

Annalouiza (34:15.213)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (34:18.829)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (34:20.611)
are too fuzzy, they're too in the fog, too in the chaos to know to look. And we know how to manage the internet and look up stuff when we're not overwhelmed maybe, but yeah. So.

Annalouiza (34:25.323)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:26.196)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:33.384)
Yeah, And knowing that that's out there and that's part of our work, right? Make sure people know that this is available. So yeah, that's great. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, those are going. Yeah.

Annalouiza (34:39.933)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (34:40.029)
Yeah.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (34:44.829)
And then of course, death cafes are life. They're like my favorite thing to do in the world. you, the last one that I had, sometimes we use the death deck or we'll pull cards just if nobody has anything to talk about. And one of the things was what will you haunt somebody after you're gone? Like what will you do or what signs will you give to people? And I was like, I'm definitely having people.

Annalouiza (35:06.349)
Cool.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (35:13.275)
be pooped on by birds. Like, if you're doing, if you're doing something dumb and stupid and bad for yourself, I'm going to have a bird come poop on you regularly, like a lot, right? And so right at this death cafe, I said that and a bird pooped on one of the people that was.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:22.565)
excellent.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:30.117)
yeah. Whoa.

Annalouiza (35:32.878)
That is, that's powerful. That's like, see, like notice. I have to tell you, um, my ex-husband is straight up atheist. Doesn't believe we have souls is like, like that shit's weird, right? But, uh, but he did one day say to me, if it's possible for you to do like hauntings, please don't haunt me. It'll it's, it don't, don't come near me. It's he's scared.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (35:33.878)
crazy.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (35:44.253)
Okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:54.248)
Hahaha

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (35:55.677)
So he does believe a little bit.

Annalouiza (35:58.318)
a little bit, but my kids and I discuss this from time to time, like, Hey, if I can do it, what where do you want to be looking like? What do you want me to push things over open doors? Like, so we like discuss, know, like, if it's possible, this is where you should look.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:09.364)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:13.908)
That's so cool.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (36:15.141)
But you know what though, that's the conversation, right? That's like, your kids are obviously used to talking about it because you're who you are. But like, I think that's the conversation, right? If you can joke about it and have like a weird morbid sense of humor or dark sense of humor, whatever we want to call it, talking about it opens up the conversation, period. like that's it. That's what's important. And then you can build upon that conversation to know what people want, to know what people wish.

Annalouiza (36:21.005)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (36:35.201)
Yes, yes.

Annalouiza (36:40.898)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (36:44.575)
Yes. I think instead of telling people I do death midwifery, I'm going to, if I get invited to dinner parties anymore, I'm going to say, you could, if you are going to be able to be a ghost, what do you want to be able to do? Cause that might be a little more interesting for people.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:45.972)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:51.604)
Heh.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (37:00.029)
What's your ghostly superpower?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:00.872)
That sounds like fun, yeah. What a great, right, right. What are you gonna do? Who are you gonna call? Yeah, okay. Well, is there anything you wish we had asked you?

Annalouiza (37:04.267)
That's right. Anyhow.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (37:14.235)
I know we talked about so much.

Annalouiza (37:17.761)
You're so awesome. I love it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:18.92)
You are, we enjoyed our time with you very much. Well, thank you. Did you have, yeah, you have a poem you want to share with us? If I remember right.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (37:19.241)
thank you.

Annalouiza (37:22.829)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (37:28.827)
You can read it because you have such a nice voice. He really does. Right? Yeah, he does have a radio voice. So it's basically for caregivers because I just think they just don't get enough attention.

Annalouiza (37:31.949)
It's right, Mr. Radio Guy.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:35.753)
Yeah

Annalouiza (37:37.889)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:38.546)
All right, well I have to, yeah, it's beautiful.

So true. And this is written by John O'Donoghue. It comes from his book, Benedictus, a book of blessings to bless the space between us from 2007. A great book. Yeah. And it's called For the Caregiver.

Annalouiza (37:44.781)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (37:50.253)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (37:55.341)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:00.53)
May you have the grace to see that the dignity of healing dwells in how you hold the suffering. May you never doubt the gifts you bring. Rather, learn from these frontiers, wisdom from your own heart.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (38:22.013)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:23.344)
And may you never doubt the gifts you bring, rather learn from these frontiers, wisdom from your own heart. yes indeed. Thanks so much. That's beautiful.

Annalouiza (38:33.353)
Yeah, I know.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (38:36.317)
Yeah, thank you. You guys are doing such important work having people. It's such an expansive idea. And I think like people think that life, if you just think of a life, a lifetime, a life experience at all the different avenues and agendas and topics that involve in a life, I think just as many are involved in death. And yeah, it's such a vast topic.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:45.096)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:01.62)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Annalouiza (39:01.768)
Mm-hmm.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (39:05.977)
And all these podcasts are so important to just let people dive into their nuances.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:06.024)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (39:06.317)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:12.73)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (39:12.845)
Mm-hmm. Well, I want to mirror that back to you because you're doing really amazing and important work where you're at. So thank you. Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:18.782)
Yeah, and you're inspiring, very inspiring. All right, well, we're gonna say goodbye to you. and I always like to record a little bit of afterthoughts for our video podcasts. And so we'll say goodbye and we thank you so much for joining us today.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (39:20.176)
Thank you.

Jessica Sadler, EOLD (39:36.743)
Thanks. see you then. I'll come visit.

Annalouiza (39:36.845)
But I'm going to keep in touch. Yeah, we'll hang out and do a tea time.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:38.546)
Yeah, definitely me too. definitely, very good. All right.

Annalouiza (39:47.339)
Alright, adios Jessica!

Annalouiza (40:16.213)
went to Camp Culver to visit. I like her so much. I know. And, you know, I found her on LinkedIn and texted her. And I was just like, when I talked to her, she is doing important work. And I love this idea of the hub. And she's got great stories. And, you know, just another facet in this multiple faceted realm of death, just like she said.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:17.822)
I I hope she does. That's so cool.

Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:32.668)
Absolutely.

Annalouiza (40:43.957)
And she's shining it out there. I loved her.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:47.24)
Yeah, yeah. What a wonderful resource. I really appreciate that because we've been thinking about that same thing, that reaching out and finding all of those pieces and talking to people and getting them in collaborative work together. And I love the model of, know, renting a space kind of thing. I'm really going to take that on as I start to think more about this idea. Yeah.

Annalouiza (41:00.779)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Made. Yeah, I want to as well, because I think that it would be great. Like I love I love it that that is a co-op and not necessarily just on your own.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:15.538)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And we already have the People's Memorial Co-op here in West and Seattle and Washington. So we could definitely tie into that as part of it. So wonderful. We are so blessed as always. Love you. Take care.

Annalouiza (41:27.821)
cool.

As always, alright my dear, adios.