Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:43.886)
Well, welcome everybody. We're really, really happy today to be speaking to Melina. My name is the Reverend Joaquin David Matthews. Melina is a longtime volunteer for the Creststone End of Life Project or the CEO LP, which is located in South Central Colorado. As she says up against a 14,000 foot mountain, the CEO LP is a non-denominational nonprofit organization promoting informed end of life choices and supporting their fulfillment.

for the Saguache County, Suwash, for the Suwash County residents. The Crestone End of Life Project's mission is to provide practical support to individuals making informed end of life choices. They assist family and friends in planning meaningful memorial ceremonies and rituals, and they have established a natural burial ground, that's really great, and a permanent and legal open air cremation site.

Ma Lena (01:16.228)
So much, we call it so much.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:43.372)
in the Crestone area, which I think is pretty unique. So, Melina, we really appreciate you showing up today and being willing to talk with us. So we'll just dive right in and just have you tell us about this project.

Ma Lena (01:58.318)
Sure, thank you so much Reverend Joaquil. We are unique, we are the only open air cremation site in the United States as far as I'm aware. And so we have an open air cremation site and we have a green burial site as well. as you originally, I'm gonna tell an amazing story actually that goes back almost 20 years.

And but I'm going to start off by saying because it is such an amazing story, I'm sure lots of people are going to want to know more and you'll post websites later. But the part I really want to start with is we must, we are a completely volunteer organization. have no employees. And we serve our community as a funeral service and as a green burial site.

And we really start when death arises, not prior to that. And we can only service people who live in Sawatch County and our residents for a minimum of 90 days. So this is unfortunately not a service that we open up to the entire world because we wouldn't be able to make that happen. So that's important to know.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:57.88)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:07.224)
Yeah.

Ma Lena (03:08.482)
And also at the end, I'll talk a little bit about a broader implication. I'll amaze you with an interesting story, but it does have broader implications to our society and our world. So what happened to me?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:19.532)
Yeah. So, so moving to, moving to that county would not be a terrible thing. It's a beautiful place.

Ma Lena (03:25.146)
Oh, it's a stunning place, but in order to obtain our services, you must be here for a minimum of 90 days. It's really a community service by the community, or the board of the community. And because we're older and volunteers, we just don't have the resource to do this more than six or eight times a year, which is what we're doing.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:31.31)
90 days, yeah. I see. Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:42.124)
Yeah, we don't have the capacity. Sure. So it's more really of an example of what maybe others might be able to do and maybe, yeah. Okay, great.

Ma Lena (03:48.906)
Absolutely, absolutely. And most importantly, how, you know, in our culture we have divorced ourselves from death.

And so that this is a process of a hands-on experience. How can you and your next of kin be involved in your own process? And I have watched for many, many, many years over and over again how families transform. Because when there is a hands-on experience when a loved one has died, it's a lot easier to move through that grieving process as opposed to in our culture where we just make a phone call and that's it. Show up on the day.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:57.408)
Absolutely.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:06.946)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:14.028)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:21.454)
Sure.

Ma Lena (04:27.42)
So, so I'll explain. The way I got involved was I knew a couple and their elder mother was living in the premises with them. She had her own little apartment on the property. And of course she got to a place where there was a serious illness. She chose not to do the medical route.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:27.852)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Ma Lena (04:45.664)
And she, you know, we had lots of community, lots of people checking in on her, bringing food, as most communities would do. And I happened to be honored to be one of the 12 people around her deathbed when she was dying. And after she died, we all toasted her with her favorite beer. We sang songs. We did her favorite prayers.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:03.15)
You

Ma Lena (05:07.172)
told funny stories, and our founder, who is a woman named Stephanie Gaines, turned to William, the son of the woman who passed, and said, what do you plan to do with the body? After we had spent, you know, 45 minutes celebrating, and he said, wow, I hadn't thought about that. I guess I'll bring her to a neighbor in town and have her cremated. And she says, why not do it here? His eyes got really big, and my mind said, what?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:33.363)
You

Ma Lena (05:36.066)
And he said, is that possible? And she said, so-and-so did it a couple of years ago. And he said, well, look into it. And my immediate thought was, Melina, if we do this, we're going. And there you have it. So next, what wound up happening is I was included with Stephanie and two other women, and we were asked to.

work with Laverne's body. So we undressed her, we washed her, we anointed her, we redressed her, we laid her out in a beautiful setting, we took away any medical stuff in the vicinity, and she was able to lay in state for three days. And that is what we now call care of the body.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:16.44)
Yeah.

Ma Lena (06:19.232)
And my response to this was, my God, this is what humanity has been doing for hundreds of thousands of years. It was, yeah, so organic, so natural, so what we've been doing and so very healing. And so that's how I got involved way back then.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:28.182)
Absolutely, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:39.981)
Okay.

Ma Lena (06:40.672)
And so the way this really works is we now have it down to quite a system. It would take about 25 to 30 volunteers to do a cremation from beginning to end. do the green burial, which takes a lot less manpower.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:46.552)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:52.526)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:56.483)
Yeah.

Ma Lena (06:56.798)
Usually we have people lay in state. The other thing that's most important for registration is people must be registered before they die. We cannot serve anybody who is not already registered with us and already passed that three month window of living in the county that we serve.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:06.733)
Okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:10.638)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think it's important for people to know or audience to know that at least in Colorado and many other states, you should find out for your own jurisdiction. It is perfectly legal and appropriate to have people lie in state for as many as three days, sometimes even more. So I love that you bring that up and that that's a part of what you folks are doing there and making sure people know that that's something they can do.

Ma Lena (07:37.732)
Mm-hmm.

Ma Lena (07:41.71)
Right, right, right, absolutely. And in some cases, usually we don't go past that, but in our world also, people don't have their closest relatives living close by, so people have to kind of fly in. And so we've got, we work with the family who has heard about this maybe, but they're walking into a situation that they have no idea what's actually gonna happen.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:59.171)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:02.766)
It's pretty unique.

Ma Lena (08:03.768)
Yes, yes, yes. it's so, you can see the transformation on their face because they just watch the process. And if I forget to mention later, we have two different websites which you guys will post and we have lots of videos and experiences on the website that will give flesh out more in pictures what I'm about to share.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:08.972)
Yeah, yeah. Beautiful.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:22.722)
Beautiful. Thank you.

Ma Lena (08:23.802)
So we have about 13 teams that make this happen. And the first team that gets called when somebody is deceased is facilitators. And we check to make sure that they are registered and that all the paperwork is in order. And the facilitator kind of oversees the entire process.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:29.272)
well.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:40.088)
Mm-hmm.

Ma Lena (08:43.194)
So there'll be usually one facilitator. And then we have something we call a family liaison. Instead of having all the different teams reach out to a family at this moment in time, we have one designated person that talks with the family and then hers with the rest of us to say what needs to happen next. So that's a family liaison. We have a team of people who do an electronic death certificate, which is legal with what happens in the state of Colorado these days. And it's quite a process from what I understand.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:57.646)
Perfect.

Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:11.15)
Mm-hmm.

Ma Lena (09:13.148)
I'm not very technologically impaired. Proficient, I should say. So then what happens after death has been declared either by hospice or the county coroner?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:13.72)
Yeah.

Ma Lena (09:26.04)
we can come in and do care of the body, which I've explained earlier. The body is kept on ice packs so that it's cold. And we don't have too severe summers, which is kind of nice. So those ice packs get changed twice a day. And then we have a variety of other teams. One is called the juniper team. When we light the pyre, we lay on, actually before that, people line up on the site before the body arrives and are handed a small twig of

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:34.35)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:38.616)
Mm-hmm.

Ma Lena (09:55.926)
juniper. And after the body arrives, there'll be a procession into the site led by a man usually who's playing a Native American flute. And then the body proceeds and then the family proceeds and then the community proceeds. And they all take their little juniper twig with them.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:57.454)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:07.31)
Hmm.

Ma Lena (10:16.588)
And once we get into the pyre site, the body is laid in there. And usually, I'm getting ahead of myself here, but we end up putting little twigs of juniper on top. So the body is laid down in a shroud on the pyre. And then the family will come along and say prayers and put down little twigs of juniper, flowers, gifts, chocolate, liquor. Some people pour a little bit of tequila on top.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:31.085)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:46.229)
Sure.

Ma Lena (10:46.566)
And depending on the preference of the person, everything is designed by the person who is deceased or by their immediate family. And most things are written out as well. And so that's where the juniper twig comes in place. We put that on top and then the fire team will proceed with their process. Yeah, our trees are basically pinyon and juniper.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:50.188)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:06.188)
And Juniper's a native plant in your part of the world, right? Yeah.

Ma Lena (11:14.034)
and the natives use the juniper in ceremony as well. And so it creates a lot of smoke and it will send the prayers up and it helps the fire move along as well. So it's something that the, the, again, participants, family, close of kin, even the rest of the community, anybody can lay on a twig or a card or a...

say a prayer usually to themselves but it could be done out loud as well. The entire ceremony is created by the person who passed. So it's completely their wishes and we have people in the community who would do Jewish prayers. We have a father who would do a Catholic prayer or Christian prayer. There are many Buddhists in town and a Hindu ashram. people and people can have nothing. People can read the poem, play a little music, they can have silence. So it's really completely designed by

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:03.022)
Mm-hmm.

Ma Lena (12:08.962)
family and by the deceased.

So to get back to my list, we have a juniper team, we have a site prep team that will come out the day before to kind of make sure all the site is in order. They put in the newspaper and some of the wood on the bottom of the pyre and the body goes on top of that. There's a grate that separates the two. And then we have the morning of the cremation. There are pallbearers who are picked in advance and we legally cannot transport a body, but the family can.

and fill out the death certificate, get a, I forget there's a legal name for this, but there is a piece of paper that rides with the body. That's legal process. I can't remember what it's called. Then on the morning of before the body arrives, there's a parking team. Sometimes we could have over 100 people at a cremation and other times you can have five or six or more volunteers. It really depends on the situation and on the death.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:40.206)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:48.278)
Okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:01.006)
Wow, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:05.314)
Mm-hmm.

Ma Lena (13:08.224)
So the parking team would vary based on expected numbers of people. have a host. yeah, we have a parking spot and we have a rather elaborate way of where the family would park, where the hearst is parked, where the volunteers park, et cetera.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:14.19)
So there's space there for parking for everybody.

Ma Lena (13:26.158)
Yeah, so that's just a setup. And so we have the parking team. We then have a hosting team. And these are people who hand out the Juniper twigs. We have a bell at the site that we ring when the body arrives. And we ring it again before the procession up to the site starts. So the hosting team is part of that. I mentioned earlier the procession is usually not officiated, but led in with a local man who may

his own Native American flutes and he plays them as well. And again, if the family wanted something different, they could have something different, but most people like our neighbor and our friend to do that. So that usually winds up leading in that procession. And then people fall behind it, know, closest kid go next and family and then the rest of the community as well. So after we bring the body up and everybody's around in that circle,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:59.182)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ma Lena (14:26.168)
There is usually a master of ceremonies that the family picks. Thanks people for coming, saying initial prayers. We like to start the fire as soon as possible. All of our fires, all of our cremations are done early in the morning because we live in a high-risk fire zone and that's when the winds are the least aggressive. So I forget if it's 630 during the summer and maybe seven in the winter, maybe six.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:44.609)
yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:55.82)
Okay. Yeah.

Ma Lena (14:55.868)
seven something like that but it could be cold mornings in the wintertime when the volunteers stand out there and it's pretty cold but everything's done early morning so the sunrise usually happens sometime over the mountain while we're in the air and I do believe there's videos somewhere on the website yeah amazing one of the most powerful teams is our fire team and our fire

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:04.782)
Yeah. Yeah.

Wow, beautiful.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:15.104)
OK, yeah, looking forward to seeing those.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:22.156)
I was just going to ask.

Ma Lena (15:23.178)
Our fire team are amazing because they are really not only well trained in what to look for and what to pay attention to and how to work with the fire, but also how to be respectful of the family and the ceremony that's happening at the same time.

So they're really quite remarkable and all of our volunteers always shadow whatever job they're going to volunteer for and we do more than one as well. Nobody's, it can change anytime you want. But they really are exceptional and well-trained and they will carry it through. The majority of the ceremonies will last about an hour and then the family can often plan a potluck or a meal somewhere else or another ceremony or just go back.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:46.67)
Mm-hmm.

Ma Lena (16:09.592)
home and you know really depends on the situation and the person's commitment and interest in the community as well. And so then there's a late fire team that shows up once the initial guys because they're there prior to when the rest of us they have been there a while already. So the late fire

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:26.574)
Yeah, they've been there a while already, right? Yeah. And is part of their work to pay attention to the surroundings and make sure that fire's not getting away, is that part of their job too?

Ma Lena (16:38.874)
It is ultimately for sure, but the way we have built our firesite, and you can see it, it's in a circle of bamboo, so there is no brush in that circle. And even if a spark was to come out on occasion, it doesn't have very far to go. Again, if there's a fire ban or if the winds are up, we do not do what we do. And people will have to pick either a green burial or there are other options in the valley that can be taken care of.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:46.712)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:54.562)
Okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:59.384)
Can't do it. Yeah.

Ma Lena (17:07.514)
So a fire van is definitely a priority. In the early stages of this, when the person just dies and on the morning of, the facilitator will make numerous phone calls to county commissioners, county services, 911, our local fire department, usually brings a truck to the site as well, just in case.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:31.078)
well, okay.

Ma Lena (17:31.547)
Knock wood, have never had that happen and don't implant it in the future. But we have to take care of that process and as I said if there's a ban on we can't do what we're doing.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:42.85)
Yeah, makes sense.

Ma Lena (17:43.77)
And yeah, and then the last team, the late fire team is really in place to make sure that things have burnt uniformly as possible and to close up the pyre. You'll see that it's cinderblock, mostly what the pyre, the fire's underneath that and then the grate on top of it. And all of that is sealed up so that a little bit of air can move through, but nothing can escape because it will take hours. Sometimes the next morning, the embers could still be warm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:53.912)
Mm-hmm.

Ma Lena (18:13.724)
And that brings us to the last team, is the cremains. There are two or three people who go out the next day, usually around 11 in the morning, and we separate the ash and put it all back together in a bucket that the family can take with them. And that is the final piece of process of collecting the ash and cleaning up the site and getting it ready for the next process.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:14.328)
Sure.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:29.496)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:39.416)
So I know that with regular cremation, there's bones left over that they have to crush. Is that true for you all as well? Yeah. Yeah.

Ma Lena (18:46.614)
Absolutely. The Buddhists like to call those relics. And for some of our Buddhist people, they like them to be intact. But for the majority, we usually ask the family if that's an appropriate question for them. And if not, they will be, we do have some equipment that we can grind it down a little bit, pound it down a little bit, so that it's not recognizable as human.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:50.508)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:10.754)
Yeah, his bone, yeah. And that's fairly normal. mean, that's pretty much the way it's done in the regular cremation world. But this sounds like, for one thing, much less toxic because of the chemicals that are used in the other death industrial complex version of cremation. And so that's good. That sounds like a really beautiful ceremony.

Ma Lena (19:17.658)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:38.54)
Maybe just share an example or story about someone, one of the times that this has happened.

Ma Lena (19:45.211)
Oh, well, there's lots of them. There was a gentleman who liked his tequila and he also had a horse and he insisted that the horse would come to the ceremony. So he had a close friend who would bring that horse. He kept it outside of circle, the horse was kind of in the premises. And he had a friend of his once the fire was going pour a bottle of tequila on top of it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:52.408)
Hehehe. Hehehe.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:57.429)
wow.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:11.546)
That probably helped the fire.

Ma Lena (20:14.52)
Yes, it does a little bit. It does a little bit.

One of the other things that happened quite often, you know, we live in a large valley, an agricultural valley. It's the highest agricultural valley in the country, I believe, because we're at eight four altitude, eight seven, something like that. And so there are wide expanses and huge views. And we often like to watch sometimes the smoke from the the pyre could be quite interesting to watch. Sometimes it forms different images, sometimes

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:30.68)
Mm-hmm.

Ma Lena (20:47.452)
Sometimes it hovers, sometimes it goes straight up. The same with the sun, the same with the clouds on the morning. It's not unusual for some piece of nature, some bird, to do an amazing circle just at the right moment. And we often speculate that the person's saying their last farewell or their last wave.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:06.178)
Yeah, yeah, come in and visit. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:14.702)
Sure. Yeah, visitation. You had mentioned the native flute and I think some other about the indigenous. So is there, has there been any input or is there an indigenous presence in the valley that is aware or works with you on this at all?

Ma Lena (21:15.194)
Wave the wings, so to speak.

Ma Lena (21:34.106)
There are several people in Crestone itself that do sweat lodges and do Native American ceremony. So if there was a family, like actually we recently served a family where the man was quite into shamanism and he had a shamanic teacher who lived about an hour away.

And she came down and she was the emcee for his service. And one of the other local women who were involved in that tradition did a drumming and some dancing as well. And as I said earlier, you know, the ceremony is very much up to the family and the person in the past. So it really reflects that, you know, this was sacred land to the youths thousand, thousand years ago. And from what I understand, the rumor that I

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:13.262)
Sure.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:21.016)
Mm-hmm.

Ma Lena (22:25.88)
heard or the customs that I heard is that natives didn't live here along this side of the mountain. It's a rather harsh environment in the winter, but they recognized the ceremonial and the sacredness of the land and different tribes would come at different times to do their rituals, to do their vision quests, and things of that nature. So they would, they called this the bloodless valley because the different Native American tribes, from my understanding, never warred here. This was a peaceful

I'm getting chills. Peaceful sacred land that they all recognized and they really honored that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:58.68)
Yeah.

You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:06.502)
that's beautiful. And to be kind of carrying on that presence there, that's beautiful. Yeah, thank you. That's beautiful. What kind of things come up as challenges for you folks when you're doing this work?

Ma Lena (23:19.226)
One of the things, challenges.

Ma Lena (23:24.92)
The biggest challenge I can think of and also the biggest reward is that this is a very unusual process and because I've been involved for so long my brothers have kind of gotten used to it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:37.048)
haha

Ma Lena (23:37.432)
But there's a lot of family member that comes in. It's not only a harsh time to have your next of kin pass in whatever the circumstances are, but here you're coming into a situation where these people are going to do an open air cremation. You don't even know what that means in many levels, as I did when I first heard that many years ago. It's like, what? And so that process is really quite remarkable because this is such a community oriented process.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:51.096)
You

Right.

Ma Lena (24:07.356)
that, you know, by the time the fire starts and a couple of people stand up and say their offerings and mention whatever, you know, it could be anything from music to a prayer to reminiscences to stories. We've heard lots of stories about someone in our community when they were young from their brothers and sisters, you know, so we get educated on what they might have been like, what the family life was like, and then their elders or their siblings get educated by watching

their community step forward. And you can literally see a transformation in the person's face, in the family members who come in and they're very trepidatious in the beginning and very...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:48.44)
Sure.

Ma Lena (24:48.962)
I don't know what I'm doing in this environment. And when you compare that to other funerals that they've been to in a sterile room with flowers all over and caskets that are opened or closed and, you know, the way we normally as a culture treat death, this is very different experience. You know, so it's remarkable to watch that transformation happen within that three-day period and after the fact.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:51.374)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:58.85)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:07.948)
Wow, that's beautiful.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:12.611)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:16.418)
How many people actually live in the county?

Ma Lena (25:18.99)
That is an excellent question that I don't think I really know. What I can say is Sawatch County is the second poorest county in the state of Colorado and the only county I believe that does not have a stoplight.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:24.193)
Okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:35.598)
There's a really, yeah, right, what? No stoplights? my goodness. I lived in a town for a while with one stoplight. We were pretty proud of ourselves. Yeah.

Ma Lena (25:37.164)
Something else for your audience to wrap their brain around. No stoplight in Swatch County.

Ma Lena (25:47.663)
Yes, exactly. Well, this is the whole county. I wonder if there is another one at this point, but that's the floor that I've heard. I've lived here since 2000, so I've been here for a while.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:53.614)
That's beautiful.

Ma Lena (25:58.939)
The last point I'd really like to make, this is not easy for people to carry on and carry over in this timeframe. We were kind of grandfathered in because 20 some odd years ago, we were able to make it happen. But there was numerous groups of us volunteers who would go to meeting after meeting after meeting of commissioner meetings and all sorts of stuff to get permission to be regulated, to do what

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:59.864)
Great.

Ma Lena (26:28.902)
of doing. And there are several states now, I believe Vermont and Maine and a couple of others are attempting this process. And I wish that we assist with our informed final choices website, and because we like to share what we know, and it really does take a village. But the thing that's a real takeaway, even for people who live in New York, which is a place I used to live, is that having that hands on experience, no matter where you are in this world or in this country,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:30.381)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:36.14)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:53.72)
Mm-hmm.

Ma Lena (26:59.212)
You can participate, actively participate, with the funeral home, with the crematorium, with the green burial, whatever the process is chosen, to participate as much as possible, to have your say, to be present when the...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:10.733)
Yeah.

Ma Lena (27:15.642)
the body goes into a crematorium, they can make arrangements for all of this. And we've just come to a place where the funeral industry likes to do what they do, and we take it to just acquiesce to that. So my strongest viewpoint to pass on is even if you can't do what we've been allowed to do here, you can participate. You do have rights. You do have privileges. And you can make it as much of your own as possible.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:27.565)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:41.388)
Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, we talk about that a lot on this podcast and not only that, but as you said earlier, the importance of making your wishes known and having it in writing and make sure you've got people who will follow your wishes. And that can be difficult at times. We've also run into times when people were very clear about what they wanted to have happen, but their family members, after they were no longer able to make decisions, decided not to do that because that wasn't what they wanted.

That seems like a really sad outcome. So again, it really helps to, as much as possible, be ahead of this, in front of this, and make sure everybody is participating and wants to help and knows what you want and is willing to do what you want. And so it's just a wonderful, wonderful service that you're doing there to create a place for people to have that opportunity and really be able to make those choices ahead of time. So thank you for doing that and thanks for being on the...

The podcast, it's really great to have you and to learn about this really very, very unique funeral pyre. Who would have thought? Do you know if there's anywhere else in the world? I mean, I know not in the United States, but are there other places in the world that have this?

Ma Lena (28:50.915)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ma Lena (28:58.542)
Well, of course, in India, open air cremation is quite common, and it happens on the side of the Ganges, I believe, and in other places as well. And other cultures have different, there are sky burials that happen in Tibet and Nepal and places high up in the Himalayas. So I'm sure there are lots of different places. There are burials at sea as well. So it does vary a little bit around the world. We're not that unique when it comes to around the world.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:02.006)
Of course, yeah, yeah.

Sure.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:20.344)
Sure. Yeah, we can even do that here.

Ma Lena (29:26.796)
thing. you know, I'd like to end on the process of very much, you know, not only thinking how to say this, it really helps ease the emotional stress and trauma of a close death and the grieving process to be able to participate. So again, even if you're in L.A. or New York, you know, but being participatory and taking an active stand and being as present as possible.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:26.806)
Right, yeah.

Ma Lena (29:56.507)
through whatever process is the person would want to have happen. It really does help with the grieving process and with saying your farewells to your loved ones.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:07.276)
Absolutely, yeah, it really does. So true. Well, wonderful. You had a beautiful Mary, I called her St. Mary poem, and you wanted me to read it, so I will do that. And it is this wonderful one. We may have even read this at some point, because it's such a beautiful poem. It's called, and one thing that will get edited out here too, but at the end,

Ma Lena (30:16.612)
Yeah.

Ma Lena (30:27.61)
Thank you so much.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:36.074)
After you hang up, I'm going to record some more thoughts, afterthoughts. So when I say goodbye, can just click the goodbye button or the little hang up button. Anyway, let's read this beautiful poem. Again, it's by Mary Oliver, one of our favorite poets and an amazing poet. She says, when death comes like the hungry bear in autumn,

Ma Lena (30:48.461)
Okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:04.738)
When death comes and takes all the bright coins from his purse to buy me and snaps the purse shut. When death comes like the measle pox. When death comes like an iceberg between the shoulder blades. I want to step through the door full of curiosity wondering what is it going to be like that cottage of darkness.

And therefore I look upon everything as a brotherhood and a sisterhood. And I look upon time as no more than an idea. And I consider eternity as another possibility. And I think of each life as a flower, as common as a field daisy and as singular. And each name a comfortable music in the mouth, tending, as all music does, toward silence.

and each body a lion of courage and something precious to the earth. When it's over, want to say all my life, I was a bride married to amazement. I was the bridegroom taking the world into my arms. When it's over, don't want to wonder if I have been, if I, when it's over, I don't want to wonder if I have made of my life something particular and real. I don't want to find myself sighing and frightened.

and full of argument. I don't want to end up simply having visited this world.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:39.778)
I don't want to end up simply having visited this world. Exactly. Thank you, St. Mary Oliver. So thank you very much again. And we will definitely have podcast notes. I will direct people to where they can find more information about what you're doing. And I hope more people will think about doing this in their own communities. I think this is really a beautiful, beautiful.

Ma Lena (32:45.482)
Ah-ho and amen.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:09.774)
precious service that you provide. So we will also be in touch and let you know when the thing will go live. So, all right. Thank you so much.

Ma Lena (33:20.877)
Okay, thanks. Thank you again for all that you do as well. And the trend is happening. The change has taken place. Bless you. Yup, thank you so much.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:25.198)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:28.8)
It is. People are starting to notice. Yeah, it's really true. Okay, well, take care.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:40.204)
Well, that was another wonderful episode. And unfortunately Ana Luisa was not able to join us this time, but we know she will love the episode when she gets to hear it. And what an incredible service to provide in a community, a very absolutely unique service. doesn't happen anywhere else, but to be able to really honor, like what Mary Oliver said, not to just live this life as, you know, as a...

not to just live this life as having visited, simply having visited this world, but to really, really enjoy the preciousness of life. And they really do honor that there in their community. So maybe go live there for 90 days if you want to have this happen. It sounds like it's a gorgeous place to live or work with your own community to create a way for this to happen there.

So much love to all of you and thank you for staying till the end. really appreciate that. Blessings and see you next time. Adios.