Annalouiza (00:01.716)
Welcome everyone. I am the Reverent Mother Annalouiza Armendariz, and today we welcome Cobie Witten. Kobe earned her doctorate in clinical psychology from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. She is currently a psycho-oncology consultant in Olympia, Washington. And her efforts include the creation of a community health education course, Cancer 101, Basics and Beyond which provide patients and their families with the information, resources, and support they need when facing a cancer diagnosis.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:39.256)
Yeah. And my wife introduced her to me after going to one of her seminars. So I'm so glad to have you with us. Cobie also provides training on a wide range of psycho-emotional topics, helping providers better care for and support cancer patients, including compassionate interactions with cancer patients, palliative care, coordinated and interdisciplinary cancer survivorship care, and compassion fatigue.

And we've heard of that. She serves as a faculty member at Harmony Retreats, a nonprofit organization focused on wellness and providing comfort and support to individuals affected by cancer, including caregivers and healthcare professionals. Wonderful work. So glad you could do this work. Thank you for joining us. We always like to kind of get a feel for our guests by asking when you first became aware of death.

Annalouiza (01:10.41)
We certainly have.

Annalouiza (01:25.536)
Welcome, Cobie.

Cobie Whitten (01:27.918)
Thank

Cobie Whitten (01:39.064)
That's such an interesting question. I was thinking about this and I think my first experience was Puddles, my turtle, who I had as a little girl. That was when you could have those turtles, which was a bad thing to have. But one day I came home from school and Puddles was floating shell down in the toilet. I think Puddles had expired while I was at school and my mom tried to give him a burial at sea.

and unfortunately he did not go down. So it was rather shocking to come home from kindergarten and see puddles like that. And then my grandparents died, but I don't really have a clear memory of that. And of course, in those days I wasn't involved in any end of life celebration, funeral, we were sheltered from that. And really my first clear memory was in college.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:10.362)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:28.794)
Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (02:37.716)
A few days before graduation, two friends of mine died, one who had had type 1 diabetes and had a complication from a burn, and the other friend who died in a car accident two days before graduation. both of those deaths, which were absolutely premature and very traumatic, really hit me. And then, of course, over the years, I've had

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:55.844)
Hmm.

Cobie Whitten (03:06.57)
a lot of relatives and now many, many patients die. So a lot of experience, but those early ones, especially the college, not that Puddles wasn't traumatic, he was, but those two friends and college, and very important, yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:10.67)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (03:22.58)
and important.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:26.01)
Yeah,

Annalouiza (03:28.884)
Wow, Puddles. like the, this is the most delightful name for an early death memory. Puddles. So as you have gone through life, I hear that there are, there's just been intermittent deaths that have made you very aware about what's going on and you've, and you've made your life. It feels like you've made your life choice to support other people through their death and dying. So.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:33.85)
Love it.

Annalouiza (03:58.122)
How did this story begin and your thoughts around giving support to folks who are facing terminal diagnoses or becoming more aware of death?

Cobie Whitten (04:09.144)
You know, it started out, I was an undergraduate at the University of Virginia and I worked with a researcher who did health psychology. He then went to Texas, Jamie Pennebaker, big guy in the importance of journaling. But when I went to graduate school, I actually thought I wanted to do schizophrenia research and the schizophrenia professor left Illinois and I ended up with a...

Annalouiza (04:28.214)
Hmm.

Cobie Whitten (04:33.644)
researcher who had just come back from UCLA doing oncology work. And it was the first time in the early 80s, I think, that we really looked at working with, as psychologists, with cancer patients, other than at initial diagnosis or right when they were dying. And I got really interested in that. And initially, folks said to me,

Annalouiza (04:50.922)
Right.

Cobie Whitten (04:55.678)
And it set my career path, but people would say, isn't that so depressing? And I said, you know, there are hard days, but I would say it's life-affirming and very helping me to figure out what's important in life and how to live my own life. And then I realized I am Jewish. There is a old Jewish joke.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:00.217)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (05:00.438)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:12.164)
Yeah.

Cobie Whitten (05:18.476)
Typical Jewish telegrams start worrying details to follow and so there is something about living with what those in the cancer literature in the early 80s There was a book the Damocles sword syndrome. What is it like? We all have uncertainty, but what is it like to profoundly? Live with knowing that my days are numbered. I don't know how long

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:22.884)
Yeah

Annalouiza (05:35.158)
Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (05:43.424)
How do I want to live my life? What do I want to do? And for me, over the years especially, but now really, I call it the Harmony Retreat you mentioned, three days of intensive.

connection, support, love. I call it accelerated authenticity. How do we want to live? Who do we want to be with? These for me are the most profound questions and these are the interactions I find most enriching in life. I feel very passionate about it.

Annalouiza (06:05.824)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (06:14.1)
Absolutely. Kobe, I really appreciate this. I've never thought about a psychologist oncologist that because because generally we think about, you know, terminal diagnosis and it's like doctors and the physical body gets cared for and it isn't until the very end when people are supported with their emotional spiritual pieces, right? Or maybe the spiritual pieces is actually intermittently.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:16.154)
Yeah, that's really beautiful.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:25.338)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (06:43.89)
the chaplain shows up or the church people show up. I really appreciate that. There is a deep, it's almost like it's like another like before and after a diagnosis or before and after that recognition of the end is so near still unknown, but people become so authentic. And I think that is my favorite place to be when people are, when I was a hospice volunteer and

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:44.954)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (06:45.774)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:08.686)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (07:13.142)
part of the story of why I became a chaplain was that people just needed somebody to be completely themselves. They couldn't do that with family. Medical people were like, too busy. This is not for me. Talk to somebody else, social workers. But they really just want to be like, tell me. Tell me and see me. And so I am smitten with your job.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:23.418)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:29.624)
Yeah.

Cobie Whitten (07:36.494)
Me too and Anna-Louise as you were saying that I was remembering I think I was an undergraduate and my first husband who actually ended up dying at age 43 of cancer very

early, dramatically. But we were visiting a friend of his and the friend's father had colon cancer and the mother had breast cancer with what I call no evidence of disease. I never use the word cured as an aside, but she had no evidence of disease. The father was not so lucky.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:05.71)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (08:06.933)
Yeah.

Cobie Whitten (08:11.454)
I was alone in the room with the father for a moment. The mother had left and he grabbed my hand and he said, I feel emotional even recounting this, I am dying and no one will talk to me about it.

Annalouiza (08:14.39)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (08:24.848)
I know. I know.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:25.816)
Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah. my God, yeah. What a great story, thank you. Could you talk a little more about the Harmony retreat and a little more what that looks like for people to understand what your work is in that regard?

Annalouiza (08:30.078)
Yeah, it is.

Cobie Whitten (08:42.762)
I would love to. It was founded many decades ago now by a woman, one of the first ARNPs in the state of Washington, Gretchen Schad. And it is a three day, we have many, many offerings. We have free virtual retreats, but the Hallmark is a three day, two night in person retreat. I just did one a couple of weeks ago and people come.

from all across the country, all across the world. And in an opening circle, you look around and I would say you see these faces frozen with fear, anxiety about what have I come to, especially if they brought a spouse or friend or partner, that person's thinking, my gosh, what have I done? What have you done to me? And I wish we had a video of from day one to day three, because through incredible food,

Annalouiza (09:20.861)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:23.386)
You

Annalouiza (09:23.946)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:28.762)
Ha ha ha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:36.762)
Mm.

Cobie Whitten (09:40.12)
beautiful setting, unbelievable listening. know, Mark Nepo, who is one of my favorite writers, talks about, see you, we all want to be seen. I think especially after a diagnosis like this, especially when loved ones just keep telling you you're gonna be okay, which is not a good thing to say. And really, I hate those battle metaphors.

Annalouiza (09:43.094)
Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (09:52.374)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (09:59.807)
Right. Right. You're going to fight this. You're going to win.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:01.71)
Right? Yeah. I know.

Annalouiza (10:07.104)
I know, I know.

Cobie Whitten (10:09.504)
It's just three days of groups, beautiful labyrinth, journaling, love, connection, being with others who get it. We're all out of the cave there.

And it's a little scary out of the cave. It's very bright out here, but boy, you can see things very clearly. So these retreats, I would have to say are absolutely transformative. I learned early on in my career with my dissertation, there's a huge difference between healing and curing or netting as I call it. And I've known many people with stage four disease who are healed and many with stage zero cancer who are

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:26.298)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:43.875)
Hehehe.

Cobie Whitten (10:52.288)
not healed. So they're not the same and I'd have to say Harmony Retreats is the most healing experience I can even imagine. So highly recommend.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:53.135)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:01.459)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, beautiful. Do you know if there are others like that around the country? Similar?

Annalouiza (11:01.632)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (11:07.832)
There are others like that. It was actually based on Common Wheel out of California by Michael Lerner and Rachel Naomi Remen. And yes, he is the founder of all of these. so Gretchen, our founder, saw a Bill Moyers.

Annalouiza (11:17.718)
Michael Lerner.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:24.954)
Hmm.

Cobie Whitten (11:29.612)
documentary on commonweal and that's what inspired her to create Harmony Hill. There's also something in Washington DC. So yeah, but it's fairly rare and our retreats are free, but there is a room and board fee now and there is scholarship available. So again, really highly recommend.

Annalouiza (11:34.454)
Mmm.

Annalouiza (11:47.19)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:49.566)
good. Yeah.

Yeah, well hopefully we can get a podcast note to direct people to where to look and see if there's something near them and of course if they're in our area they can definitely go directly to you. So that would be great. Thank you.

Annalouiza (12:03.046)
Great.

Cobie Whitten (12:03.062)
and they can come here even if they can get here. I mean, I've had people from Europe, so yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:06.298)
That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's that. Yeah. Thank you for mentioning that. Yeah. That's great.

Annalouiza (12:09.468)
Mm-hmm

Cobie Whitten (12:12.137)
Sure, thanks.

Annalouiza (12:14.08)
So, Kobe, what are the biggest challenges that you encounter as you're walking this path and supporting folks in this work?

Cobie Whitten (12:23.584)
I think the well-meaning support from those around you, but it's not really support. One of my favorite, there are many articles, one of my favorites is what not to say to someone when they have cancer. just often,

Annalouiza (12:32.074)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:39.556)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (12:44.906)
Unfortunately, at a time when the person dealing with cancer, no matter their prognosis, doesn't have a lot of energy, they're forced to either educate and or support someone who's trying to support them exactly just like when someone dies and someone's trying to comfort you and they're upset.

Annalouiza (12:51.286)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (12:56.33)
others.

Annalouiza (13:04.741)
Ha ha ha ha ha.

Cobie Whitten (13:05.055)
I think that others often project their own fears about cancer and dying onto the person dealing with cancer, and that's a huge burden. So one of the things that's just dealing with well-meaning, well-intentioned, but people who are off the mark. The other is this whole notion that we have to battle, battle, battle, that if you decide, you know what, this treatment is not what I want.

Annalouiza (13:08.886)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:12.505)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (13:25.674)
Yes. Yes.

Cobie Whitten (13:31.288)
through a process of what we call shared decision-making with your provider. So, you know, the day, I'm gonna age myself here, but there was a wonderful show with Mark called Marcus Welby MD. James Brolin was his assistant and Dr. Welby was so benevolent and wonderful. And he would just tell you, you know, don't even think about it. Here's what we're gonna do. Well, for better or worse, now we are in a day of no, I am an agent in my own healthcare.

Annalouiza (13:36.022)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:42.039)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (13:42.186)
Yes. Remember, I remember this.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:53.86)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (13:54.153)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:59.257)
Yeah.

Cobie Whitten (14:00.81)
You went to medical school for 63 years. Let's work together to figure out what's best for me, not what's best in an algorithm. So when people with a lot of thought decide, I don't want to do this treatment anymore, I can't enjoy food, I have neuropathy, it's not affecting my cancer, and others around them are almost emotionally screaming at them. You can't give up. You've got to keep going.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:04.868)
Mm hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (14:07.37)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:10.593)
Thank

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:27.896)
Yeah. yeah.

Annalouiza (14:28.342)
Right, right, right.

Cobie Whitten (14:29.742)
It's a huge burden. People just don't understand what the significance of quality of life and that at some point we can decide we're done. And that's a beautiful decision. Dying is not a failure.

Annalouiza (14:37.59)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:41.593)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (14:42.262)
Yeah, it. Mm hmm. Absolutely. Hear here. Oh, I hear this so much, Kobe. It's it's it's so prevalent and I just I don't understand how to keep, you know. Yeah, yeah, a failure, right?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:45.432)
Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Cobie Whitten (14:48.21)
No.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:52.644)
Yeah, it's come up a lot.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:58.563)
Even going into hospice is like considered a failure, you know, and yet it's such a wonderful choice for people.

Annalouiza (15:05.642)
Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (15:06.35)
And so, and then people don't go on to hospice until three days before they die. So my own mother was diagnosed with lung cancer at age 75. She quit smoking at 67 finally, and then attributed all her health problems to quitting smoking. It was quite humorous actually, but she...

Annalouiza (15:10.418)
Yes, yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:10.916)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:23.862)
Ha ha.

Cobie Whitten (15:27.674)
decided not to get treatment, was absolutely appropriate for her. And she died three weeks later. And in that three week interval, I got her enrolled on hospice. She lived in Chicago. I lived here. And she didn't talk to me for two of her last three weeks of living because she was so angry. And then when she recognized the incredible benefits of being on hospice, she got it.

Annalouiza (15:31.734)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (15:43.574)
Mmm... angry. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:46.362)
Hmm.

Cobie Whitten (15:52.514)
But yeah, even in my own family with my own mother, a lot of misperceptions and confusion.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:52.536)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (15:52.873)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:57.484)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And the other part of that is it's quite, we've also heard many stories where it's the family members who say, don't, we don't want to give up. Don't go to hospice. We don't want to give up, know, and don't, like you just mentioned, don't, don't give up the treatments, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's one of our big messages here to our audiences. This is not failure. I love what you just said, a perfect quote. It's not, you don't, dying is not a failure. Getting sick is not a failure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (15:58.11)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (16:03.19)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (16:07.216)
Yes, that happens.

Cobie Whitten (16:10.562)
That's more typical. That's more typical, yeah.

Annalouiza (16:12.918)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (16:17.283)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

It's not...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:27.266)
So, so important to make sure that's emphasized over and over, even though we say it may be too much. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:32.598)
I know.

Cobie Whitten (16:34.38)
I don't think you can say it enough, yeah. It's painful for me when I witness people in the last months of their life just scurrying with such a freneticism, you know. And there is a tremendous will to live. And I understand that for sure, but it really mirrors whatever time you have left.

Annalouiza (16:37.194)
Well...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:46.254)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:46.42)
Yes. Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:55.29)
Yeah, there's so much better things you can do like go for a hike or.

Annalouiza (17:00.662)
Well, or just even shift that attitude, right? And just be in grace with yourself, with the world, with the mystery that is coming. I don't know. I mean, we're too death positive here on this podcast. So it's really difficult because I hear it, I see it. yes, my hope is that more people would just gather themselves. The reason I think that I'm so

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:02.574)
Yeah, yeah.

Cobie Whitten (17:14.933)
I love it.

Annalouiza (17:29.534)
in love with this whole process is I read William Cullen Bryant when I was in high school, the fanatopsis poem. Never will I ever forget that moment when I read that poem and the, the, the, person is like taking death and wrapping it like a quilt around and laying down on the couch. And I was like, that sounds so amazing. I was like, that's what I want all humans to encounter at the end of life.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:54.808)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. To have that opportunity, that choice, to be able to make that choice. Yeah, and it's all about education. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in all of this work you're doing, do you have any fear of death yourself? Or what does frighten you? Is anything frightening you?

Annalouiza (18:00.15)
Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (18:00.962)
that, I think what you just said is choice, critical education and choice. Yeah.

Annalouiza (18:04.859)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm

Annalouiza (18:14.319)
Hahaha

Cobie Whitten (18:16.61)
That is a super question. You know, there's a beautiful story that Irvin Yalem, who's one of my heroes, tells in his book, Staring Into the Sun. He's a psychiatrist emeritus at Stanford. He's written beautiful fiction and nonfiction with death. He's an existentialist psychotherapist. And he describes how he always thought he would

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:18.17)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:27.523)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:37.626)
Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (18:44.642)
died before his wife Marilyn. She ended up dying of multiple myeloma, I believe, before him. But they lived in Palo Alto. They had a condo in San Francisco. they would go into San Francisco separately from the train station in Palo Alto and leave their cars. They'd come back, and he would wait for her to start her car. So he says,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:51.524)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:06.157)
Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (19:07.278)
I don't have fear about death because I can't remember anything before I was born and that's what I believe it will be like. But who will wait for Marilyn to start her car? So for me, it's the people I leave behind, I think. I don't want pain. I know for many of my patients, even on hospice, have to say that pain control can be a major issue. It's really important for me to live in a state.

Annalouiza (19:14.198)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:22.382)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:32.184)
Yeah.

Cobie Whitten (19:35.5)
with death, with dignity, with which Washington is. I've known many patients who have gotten the prescription and not needed it. I would want the control of having that prescription, but I would have to say I have grandchildren I'm just crazy in love with. It's just leaving prematurely, not being able to be with them and see them. So death itself, I've learned.

Annalouiza (19:37.556)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:42.916)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (19:44.853)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:52.996)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:00.548)
Yeah.

Cobie Whitten (20:03.57)
so much from so many people, not really afraid, but just who I'm leaving behind, my children, my grandchildren, my husband, and not wanting to be in pain, not wanting to suffer, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:16.312)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Very, very true. actually, his other book, the one I just finished reading his book, think it's called of Death and Life, where he and his wife take turns writing chapters as she's in the last few years of her life. And it's really moving and deeply moving. really that, well, of course they were married for what, 67 years or something. And so,

Annalouiza (20:23.146)
Right.

Cobie Whitten (20:31.2)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:46.418)
And it also very deeply resonated and touched me because of my own wife's terminal diagnosis that this is my story in a way. And this whole sense of anticipatory grief and then what that's going to look like to get up in the morning and say, and then really there's nobody you're calling to, right? It's just, it's hard. Yeah.

Cobie Whitten (20:55.692)
Yes.

Annalouiza (21:06.08)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (21:09.952)
It's, I highly recommend his fiction book, The Schopenhauer Cure, where the protagonist early on is a psychotherapist and learns he only has one year to live. So it brings up the questions of how do, do I want to change anything in my life? Do I want to do anything differently? It's young, beautiful.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:15.214)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:25.988)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (21:26.506)
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:31.354)
we'll have to put a link to his work in our podcast notes for this one. In fact, I'd love to get him on the podcast. think, is he still alive?

Cobie Whitten (21:34.326)
Yes.

he's, he's, I think somewhat cognitively challenged right now. His sons, two of his sons are communicating a lot of his work, but I think his days of being interviewed are on are unfortunately gone. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:43.084)
Yeah, he was.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:49.207)
Okay.

Probably past, yeah. He must be close to 90 or over 90 now. Yeah, yeah. What a treasure. Yeah. Yeah.

Cobie Whitten (21:56.194)
He's in his 90s, I think, yeah.

Annalouiza (21:58.689)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (22:02.614)
So, Kobe, when I suspect that you have a lot of tools that you use to get yourself feeling like, I'm okay, especially if you lose somebody who's dear and special. But what do you do to take care of yourself mentally, spiritually, physically? What is your go-tos?

Cobie Whitten (22:24.864)
It's pretty easy for me now because my children are all grown. My parents and my husband's parents are gone. So we are, I was just talking to a friend the other day who very much is that sandwiched in between the needs of the youngers and the, the elders. So I work part time at this point. I have time to work out and

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:38.777)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (22:40.134)
my gosh, yes.

Annalouiza (22:48.406)
Lucky!

Cobie Whitten (22:48.654)
cook and eat well. And my husband, who is actually a retired pathologist, he used to joke that we could open a two room office. One Dr. Witten would give you the diagnosis and he said, and now I'll open the door and the other Dr. Witten will help you cope with what I just told you. So we compliment each other well. So he's a fabulous listener and support. And I also recognize the importance of crying.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:50.033)
Hahaha

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:59.095)
Thanks

Annalouiza (23:06.646)
Aww.

Hmm.

Cobie Whitten (23:18.464)
and grieving and feeling, you know. One of our kids recently said if there was some song that would sum up who you are, it would be show some emotion, you know. So Joan Armand, who I love, and also Shaka Khan, I Feel For You. So I've learned over the years the difference between pity, which

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:20.75)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (23:32.691)
I love that. Don't arm are treated. I love her. I listened to that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:37.38)
Ha ha ha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:41.504)
huh.

Cobie Whitten (23:46.846)
Some people do want, I'll be honest with you, some people want to be pitied. But between empathy and compassion, and you know, empathy, think for me, I've no longer used that word for me, it literally means for me to feel what you're feeling, which is not a good thing for either of us. And I really like the idea of compassion, where I feel for you with boundaries. So I've learned over the years to

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:01.658)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:06.702)
Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (24:14.114)
You know, my shields are up, but my heart is open. I would say that's how I view my work. And certainly there are some people I work with who, when they die, it really profoundly affects me.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:17.709)
Right.

Cobie Whitten (24:31.122)
And I have to allow myself to feel that. I think one of the big challenges is I facilitate several support groups and we lose a lot of people because I work with a lot of people with metastatic disease and just holding the space for everyone when we lose someone is a, is a big challenge. But I'm a big proponent of that whole oxygen mask flight attendant thing. If I don't have that mask over my own mouth first, I can't take care of anyone else.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:43.502)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:46.198)
That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:48.612)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:50.048)
Mm.

Annalouiza (24:55.648)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:55.663)
Hehehe.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:01.146)
Yeah, so important. And we ask this question pretty much of every person we've talked to. we like to, in a way, we're just sort of collecting ideas, right? Because it's just really important for people to know how much matters that you take care of yourself. And yeah, you put your own ass into a mess on. especially if you're a caregiver or if you're going through this or if you're dealing with, if you're working in this world, you can't do a good job if you're overwhelmed.

Annalouiza (25:09.718)
you

Annalouiza (25:17.012)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (25:23.638)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:30.97)
burned out, you know, and so and that can happen, that can sneak up on you too. Just was reading an article about a funeral director who said that she had, over time, you she's just always kind of pushing forward trying to be there for everybody and didn't really even notice until she got physically sick, you know, that she was just pushing herself too hard and she had to, your body will eventually take you down, you know.

Annalouiza (25:32.628)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (25:49.856)
Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (25:50.466)
Yes.

Annalouiza (25:52.886)
Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (25:56.622)
It will scream at you. One of the beautiful things just for a second to go back to Harmony Retreats is we want your loved one or your, I prefer the word companion to caregiver because you don't always want to be cared for in that way, you know, but it's that we want them to come and we have special time set aside for them because they need, as Mark Nepo says to it, what is not expressed is depressed. We need them.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:02.553)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:07.364)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:11.29)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (26:12.33)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:18.807)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (26:24.938)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:24.985)
Right.

Cobie Whitten (26:26.476)
to express what they're feeling and get support. So critically important, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:27.727)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. When, when my wife came home, she said, I didn't realize that I could have brought you with. So next time. Yeah. Yeah. hope that sounds really like I didn't do, I would get a lot out of that. So, and I really appreciate that note, that, that note that is important for the caregivers, especially. let's see there. yeah. So this has been great. We really appreciate it.

Annalouiza (26:30.634)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (26:39.512)
Good, great.

Cobie Whitten (26:45.228)
I think you'd love it, yeah.

Annalouiza (26:57.11)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:58.126)
and officiate your time and really the work you're doing. So phenomenal. Is there anything that we haven't asked you that you wish we would have asked you that you'd like to tell us about?

Cobie Whitten (27:07.342)
I think maybe just I do a lot of work with palliative care and people have so much confusion about that. It's not hospice. It's intensive symptom management that is really most beneficial when it comes early in the diagnostic process. There was a landmark study in 2010 showing that lung cancer patients with metastatic disease lived longer and better.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:11.332)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (27:17.846)
That's right.

Cobie Whitten (27:36.812)
when palliative care was initiated early on, along with their regular treatment. So I just wish folks took advantage of that more. Palliative care is what all care should be. And unfortunately, our health care system now is so fragmented and honestly broken in so many places that it really serves a critical role. So just I'm a big proponent of palliative care.

Annalouiza (27:42.006)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (27:46.422)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (27:55.424)
Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (28:05.258)
and utilizing it early in the whole process.

Annalouiza (28:07.53)
Mm-hmm. Process, that's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:09.848)
Yeah, yeah. That's another good point about education is that the more we know as patients or as people who are helping and providers, yeah, yeah, the more we can bring these things to bear when they went well before they're needed and earlier on instead of last minute. Now, like you said, two weeks, two weeks is the average stay in hospice I read. So, and that doesn't make any sense.

Cobie Whitten (28:17.62)
and providers, they're confused. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (28:17.942)
my goodness.

Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (28:30.506)
Yeah, that's just crazy. I guess the one other thing is a story I love to tell. It's from a book called Talking About Death Won't Kill You. I love that. I think it's by Virginia Morris. And there's a beautiful story she tells in it. She's in Newfoundland in some bar. It's a town where there's no health care. There's no hospitals.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:42.244)
Yeah.

Cobie Whitten (28:57.076)
It's these fishermen are sitting around, she describes they're eating black bread smeared with molasses and it's they make their own nets. It's just, you know, very scaled down. And at a certain point, she remembers she has to do something. And she's suddenly, you know, frantic about having to rush off and do whatever it is. And in retrospect, she can't even remember what that thing is.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:08.964)
Mm-hmm.

Cobie Whitten (29:25.14)
And one of the fishermen looks at her and says with a thick brogue, I don't have the time to hurry. I don't have the time to hurry. And I love that because I think sometimes the folks I work with suddenly feel this bucket list freneticism and the recognition of no, sit down. Look at that eagle flying overhead. Hold your grandchild.

Annalouiza (29:46.452)
Right, right.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:51.865)
Haha.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Cobie Whitten (29:54.594)
be here now, you know, we have to be reminded of that again and again. So for me, that's a mantra for how I try to live my life.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:00.27)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:05.044)
That's beautiful. Very, very good. Yeah, I love that story. That's really true.

Annalouiza (30:10.058)
That is true. My dad, my Mexican dad who always had aphorisms for so many things, he'd always tell me, despacio porque voy de prisa, slow down because I'm in a hurry.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:16.25)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:22.22)
Hahaha!

Cobie Whitten (30:25.304)
That's great.

Annalouiza (30:27.412)
So it's always been like, slow down. I'm in a hurry. I gotta just slow down.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:31.224)
Yeah, beautiful. Well, that's another great lesson for everybody to remember. Take a few breaths, stop. I think the whole, there was a whole practice we did in our spiritual community once just called stop. And it's just a wonderful, just kind of remember to stop moving, stop thinking, stop doing and just be and enjoy, like you said, the eagle flying over or the tree or the grass or the creek flowing by and.

Cobie Whitten (30:51.608)
us.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:00.44)
or just your loved ones. Yeah. Give them a hug, your loved ones or do a little dance or sing a little song.

Cobie Whitten (31:02.158)
Yeah

Annalouiza (31:07.19)
Do a little dance. Make a little laugh.

Cobie Whitten (31:10.646)
I love that song.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:12.314)
Yeah, you can tell, yeah. So you wrote some quotes. Would you like to read those or you'd like us to?

Annalouiza (31:15.006)
We have similar tastes in music. can tell we could probably go out dancing together.

Cobie Whitten (31:16.906)
I think so.

Cobie Whitten (31:26.422)
you can read them. Go ahead. It's okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:27.49)
Okay, these are.

Annalouiza (31:29.066)
Well, we've already been lucky that she gave us the Mark Neppo a little bit. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:31.948)
Yeah, you already gave us some Mark Nippos. Yeah, you actually did say the one. So I'll just read the first one and you can read the last one. about that? actually, there's three, two more. Yeah, okay. I'll read the first two, I guess. Or the first one, last one, I don't know, whatever. The first one is by Socrates and it's the unexamined life is not worth living. Yeah.

Annalouiza (31:39.99)
Okay, there's three, yeah.

Annalouiza (31:56.16)
So true.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:56.954)
Yeah. And then what she said about Mark Nepo, what is not expressed is depressed. And that's very, very important quote.

Annalouiza (32:04.456)
Yeah, and the whole reason we are here is to grow in wisdom and to learn to love better by Rachel Naomi Raman. And though the physicality of death destroys us, the idea of death saves us. Irvin Yellum.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:15.418)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:25.154)
Right, yes. And we'll have a link to Irvin's books in the podcast notes because we've mentioned him several times. And as you said, you know, he's kind of a hero. He did amazing work. So, yeah. So thank you so much again. We will say goodbye to you and thank you again. And really we'll let you know when this goes live and thank you again. Check in.

Annalouiza (32:50.208)
Thank you, Kobi. Nice to meet you.

Cobie Whitten (32:50.424)
Thank you. Thanks so much. You too.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:52.898)
All right, take care.

Annalouiza (33:04.212)
Ugh.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:04.986)
We could just have that recorded. another one. Yeah.

Annalouiza (33:09.566)
a delightful human to intersect with our lives who's doing the work that is so important.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:15.031)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:19.32)
Yeah, and I love that, you know, in this case, we're not really, we're not dealing with death care and that kind of thing. We're dealing with like what happens when you've learned about your own upcoming death and how do you live a life? How do you live life in a graceful and thoughtful and compassionate and caring way and take care of yourself? So important.

Annalouiza (33:28.766)
Right? The diagnosis.

Mm hmm. It is. that was a very lovely conversation. I have to say as usual.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:44.61)
Yeah, Kobi is, yeah, Wendy told me, know, my wife's Wendy said, you got to talk to her. She would be great. So yeah, yeah. So I'm glad we did that. Glad we reached out and got to meet her. And yeah, look, hopefully the audience enjoyed her as well. And the podcast notes will have all sorts of great information for you. And we'll look forward to the next podcast. So it's going to be another great one. Take care.

Annalouiza (33:53.366)
She is, I love it.

Annalouiza (34:05.29)
That's right.

Yes. Yep. And thank you for listening. Adios.