Rev Wakil David Matthews

We all know we should talk to our family and friends about our wishes and preferences for end-of-life care, funeral preferences, or what happens after we're gone. But maybe you’ve experienced what we see so often: Someone changes the subject. Someone makes a joke. Or you get hit with "Why are we talking about this? No one's dying."

It's not that people don't care—it's that no one taught us how to do this without it feeling morbid, uncomfortable, or like you're ruining your time together. We find we don’t get invited to dinner anymore!

Annalouiza

I don’t think the awkwardness is about death—it's about surprise and discomfort.
We've been conditioned to avoid these conversations until there's a crisis, so when someone brings it up out of nowhere, it can feel heavy and scary.

But if you approach it differently—casually, early, and with intention—it stops being this "big death talk" and becomes just another important conversation, like planning a trip or talking about money (which can also be fraught!).

Yet the discomfort can shrink when you remove the urgency and secrecy, and, as we always try to do on this podcast, normalize and destigmatize the conversation.

Rev Wakil David Matthews

It's not easy, and it takes courage, but in this episode, we'll cover three things:
How to start a conversation about death naturally – the exact prompts and moments that make it easy
What to actually say when people shut down – how to handle resistance without pushing too hard
How to keep the conversation going over time – why one talk isn't enough, and how to make it ongoing and informative

Annalouiza

By the end of this episode, you’ll have some simple, tested approaches that take the weight off these conversations—and maybe even make them something your friends and family actually thank you for starting. 
Because the truth is, the people who love you want to know what matters to you. They just need permission to talk about it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews

And just a note that we are changing things up! Starting this week, we will be posting a new feature at the beginning of each week. Last Monday, we created our first “current affairs” version in conversation with our excellent and wise editor, Sam Zemke. We hope to publish a new episode on current events in loss, grief, and dying every week. Our regular episodes will continue, but will be posted on Saturdays.

Welcome to this episode of End of Life Conversations!

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:01.71)
Hello everyone. I am the Reverend Wakil David Matthews and we have this wonderful conversation we'd want to share with you folks with Annalouiza and I today, thinking about how you can open up the dialogue with people, your friends, your family, anybody. mean, when we go out, we talk about these things all the time. it's like, that's kind of the way it is for us.

Annalouiza (00:25.774)
It naturally comes up.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:30.316)
But I think we've heard from people that it's a hard thing to start talking about. Some people don't want to talk about it, right? And so we thought we'd give you some tips and tools about the ways we would do that and maybe some ideas that would help.

Annalouiza (00:45.442)
right. Well and I'm the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Mendadis and first of all it is really easy for me to talk about death and dying because I've been doing it a lot and if it's not comfortable for you the listener it's okay. Like it's it's a hard thing unless you're doing it a lot so just sit back and think about all these little clever tricks we're gonna help you approach the subject.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:10.434)
Yeah, yeah, one of the things that comes up a lot is just When I'm talking to people about this is just baby steps, you know What kind of what are some tools you can use to just kind of open up the dialogue without? Confronting somebody without walking in and saying tell me about death, know Talk to me about your own death or something because that can be overwhelming to some people or some people just don't want to talk about it but it's an important subject and we all are gonna go there and so

being able to help people think about it and normalize that conversation as we've been, it's been our mission, but also to think about what they want, what they want to have happen. It's important.

Annalouiza (01:43.01)
Yes.

Right. Well, and I was just thinking, I think it's really uncomfortable discussing this topic with family or loved ones, because if you're talking to elder family members and or younger siblings who are potentially going to die sooner than you, I remember that discomfort of like, I have to talk about this, but like, you know, I don't want her to feel bad.

And it is a lot different of a conversation than you have with somebody on an airplane as you're flying to Asia. you end up something triggers this conversation. And suddenly you find yourself really immersed and able to discuss this, because it's a complete stranger. You'll never see them again. And it matters because it's good practice that you've done this. And it matters because hopefully you'll find ways to have this very important

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:22.221)
All right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:33.824)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:38.967)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (02:44.942)
conversation with those that are really important to you. And I would start out by saying like, ask a question. What, you know, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:53.293)
Yeah, yeah, just a simple question. And often, often it's the kind of question is just like, ask them for a story. People love to tell stories, you know. So ask them for a story about a time they've dealt with loss and how that looked for them and how it felt for them. That's kind of an opening. That's one little tool that I've found is helpful. What are some other ones that you've used that have helped, especially with people who are

Annalouiza (03:04.238)
That's

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:23.553)
Like you've talked about running into people who are like, no, I'm not going to go there.

Annalouiza (03:29.984)
Yeah. And you know, I don't press that with folks who don't want to talk about it. If they're not essential to my day to day, right? Like a random stranger who's like, Ooh, I don't, you know, that's gross. It's weird. But I think, you know, asking a question of what their experiences with loss can be. And sometimes I will get somebody to say, I really want to talk about this with my parents, but they never want to talk about it. And lo and behold, I get asked over for a something.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:33.398)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:37.331)
Right.

Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:53.611)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (03:58.478)
And I will, just in the conversation, just like, oh, how long have you lived here? I bet you've seen a lot of changes. Tell me about this neighborhood or this job that you've had or what has happened to people? Where have they gone? And it will always show up like, oh, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:09.101)
Right?

Annalouiza (04:24.972)
you know, our neighbors across the street had to move because somebody passed away or we've got a bunch of cats buried in the backyard. Like death is a line that just sits everywhere. And at that moment then you could be like, well, tell me about these, this cat cemetery. You know, would you like to be buried here? And then.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:32.257)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:42.926)
Yeah, how does that feel?

In the cat cemetery.

Annalouiza (04:52.366)
And, you know, then it also kind of gives it that slightness, right? You just laugh. Like, giving a little bit of humor to this is always eases this road for so many people.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:01.527)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:06.059)
Yeah. Yeah. And you really are providing service, really. This is something to think about. The most important thing we're here to do is to provide service to our community and to our beloveds. And this is a service that you can think of it that way. And that might help you feel a little less hesitant because you think, OK, I can help somebody this way. This is something I can do to help this person become more comfortable.

Annalouiza (05:20.067)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:33.774)
with this conversation and become more comfortable and prepare better for the things that are going to come up. So for either their own loss or their losses, there's so many different ways we have losses, but also to spread the word, to open the conversation more. So yeah, so it's a really important thing to do. course, obviously we are very much about this, but yeah, what are the kinds of things you can think about that have helped?

Annalouiza (05:45.806)
That's right.

Annalouiza (05:52.462)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (06:03.694)
I well let's just hit the movies right like movies often have this theme of dying of a loved one in a myriad of ways right. What was that movie of like the woman who really wanted to meet her ghost and the ghost really did everything to try to come into the world and then she ended up in a car accident. Do you remember that movie from like the 90s?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:06.765)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:14.263)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:26.837)
Yeah, yeah, there's a bunch. Yeah, you're right. There's a lot of those kind of movies, right? Yeah, and that's, you know, it's a great way to start the conversation. Have you seen this movie? And get them to tell you which one it is. Maybe they'll know. They'll remember maybe.

Annalouiza (06:39.534)
Yeah, I should have looked it up. But anything that's out in the grand scheme of life will probably be an opening for a very beautiful conversation about, hey, would you ever come back? Would you want to be a ghost for somebody? These are all playful ways for people to start thinking about dying. What does it mean when you don't get to be here?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:55.853)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:02.274)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (07:05.032)
And, you know, I recently we discussed like my new thing is like asking people if you could be a ghost, what are you going to do to make sure people know it's you? Have you told people?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:13.631)
Yeah, right, Yeah, right. What should they expect? Yeah. And we've heard from our podcasts, we've heard people talk about the conversations or the communications that they've had after someone goes and that they knew that that was the person. And even people who are pretty cynical about these things in the end are often said, well, actually, I kind of think I did hear something from them. I remember the one.

Annalouiza (07:25.368)
That's right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:41.522)
person's husband who came downstairs and says, dang it, now they're talking to me. Because he was like a scientist and you know, he's like, this is not real, you know, but then, oh, well, maybe it is. And it really, you know, I think part of that is that it doesn't matter if it's real or not, you know, it's like, it's, it's something that we feel it's an emotional connection, it's a psychological connection. And if it feels like a connection, then it's a connection. What do we know? We don't, we have very, very limited senses.

Annalouiza (07:45.194)
Yeah, I remember that. That's funny. Yes.

Annalouiza (07:51.842)
Yeah. Maybe it is.

Annalouiza (08:07.64)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:10.941)
And we have our own stories that we've learned to believe in. And there's a lot more outside of that than a more, a bunch more outside of that perception, perceptive circle or window than, than there is in it. So, yeah.

Annalouiza (08:11.064)
Right.

Annalouiza (08:24.598)
Right. So yeah, so giving lots of space to these silly little stories are really also a great way to find out what people are feeling about. Maybe they're fearful of ghosts and that's, you know, that kind of catapults them into, I don't even want to die. know, well, you know, and then that's a very different conversation as well. Like, you know, what are you afraid of? Like, you know, have you told your family about this fear?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:38.253)
Mm hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:47.81)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:54.209)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (08:55.138)
Yeah, just holding curiosity with all these trajectories of dying.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:00.907)
Yeah, it's a lot about that. Yeah, it's a lot of curiosity is a great word for it. It's really important about just paying attention, being curious, listening, a lot of listening, but also listening for clues. So if somebody, depending on their reaction or the way they respond or the story they tell, you can maybe get some clues about what else you might talk about with them, like their fears around dying or their fears about being in pain or whatever. You can start to kind of...

look for clues, and then the questions are always important. Like what kind of questions can you use? These are good tools too. What kind of questions can you use to say, do you want to talk about this? You know, first of all, if you have, if they, for instance, said, I'm just really afraid of not being able to take care of myself. Well, tell me more about that. You know, what would that look like for you? And what would you want people to know about how to take care of you in that case?

So yeah, there's an opening right there. So yeah.

Annalouiza (10:03.212)
And end up speaking to people 50s or 60s or even 70s who are trying to get their 80s, 90s, almost 100 year old parents to make the choice of what do you want to do? And so if that's you and you're at this moment and they're starting to talk about, I'm really afraid of...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:13.229)
Mm-hmm

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:17.803)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (10:30.208)
leaving you here with my mess or I'm afraid that you'll find me and I'll be soaked in urine or nobody will find me for a few days. So that is the most loving opening for you to say, well, I need to write this down so that I know exactly what you want. And then you could go back and figure out, is it the five wishes that we're going to just kind of rudimentary make?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:46.091)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:51.17)
care.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:58.614)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (10:58.663)
Or do we want to talk about advanced care directives and we can talk about all these little things that are contributing to this anxiety around the end of life.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:06.635)
Yeah, yeah, it's a great chance. And to keep in that conversation going, you know, if it's if it turned out to be a stimulating, fun conversation, then they want to do it again, you know, and you can kind of keep it going. So that's part of it. You know, keep it that keep it happy or not necessarily happy, but keep it light and and not, you know, no pressure. That's a big part. Just don't go in with an objective or go in with something that you're going to fix things for them. You're going to help.

Annalouiza (11:18.574)
That's right. That's right.

Annalouiza (11:24.046)
Keep it light.

Annalouiza (11:35.18)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:35.373)
You want to be helpful, you want to be of service, but you want to be of service in a gentle, compassionate, thoughtful way that doesn't overwhelm them or make them feel like they're being pressured. Because as soon as that happens, a lot of people will just back away and that'll be the end of the conversation, right?

Annalouiza (11:49.378)
That's right. Well, as you say this too, I think that especially if you're in that age range where you're trying to get your elder parents to discuss this topic, it is never too soon to make your own advanced care directive plan. So sharing like, hey, like I did the five wishes with a couple of friends and I'd like you to know this too, even though they're older people and statistically your elder parents.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:01.111)
care.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:05.697)
Right?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:13.729)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (12:19.01)
will not outlive you, but sometimes they do. And it's still important that everybody in the family know the story of what you find important and of value for your life at the end of the days, right? So, mom and dad, like, you're having this anxiety about not being able to care for yourself. Listen, I worry too. Like, I don't even know what it's gonna look like or how long I'm gonna live, assuming I'll live a long life, but.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:20.471)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:32.299)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (12:47.502)
I've already decided that if at this time, if something were to happen, this is what I want to set up in place. I would like to have this kind of assistance. do you want to see what yours, what you would like to do or who you would like to have help you? I would love for you to just hear all of my folks who will be helping out. Don't make it about like, you should do this. It's like, this is what we could do together.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:54.967)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:02.497)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:15.125)
Yeah, that's a great way to do it. Yeah, just having that camaraderie, know, and sharing, because you're sharing your own story. That's another way to hear people's stories. Like, this is my story, tell me your story. And that's something we can always do more of, but especially around this subject. It's a great way to get this done. Yeah.

Annalouiza (13:35.973)
And also be ready to rain back any judgments or deep emotional feelings you may have. I remember in my 20s I was talking to my family about I wanted to be cremated and my parents are very not cremation kind of people. And I mean as a 20 year old, this is what you'd expect a 20 year old to do anyhow, but you know they were mad. They were like,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:42.391)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:51.789)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:55.754)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:02.444)
You

Annalouiza (14:04.182)
You can't do that. That won't be your choice. They're flexing their age, I guess. But at that moment, I never spoke to them about these things again, right? Because it was disparaging. It made me feel like I was doing something wrong for wanting to be cremated rather than being buried. And so if you're in a situation when your parents says,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:11.241)
Hahaha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:16.162)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:26.145)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (14:33.153)
I want to die and I want to be immediately cremated and I don't want you to tell anybody else anything. You you listen, you like metabolize it with your stories about them and you're like, okay, like if that is a value for you, let's write this down because in a day it's about them. It's about each of our desires.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:38.349)
Thank

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:47.424)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:51.307)
Yeah, yeah, it is.

Yeah, and there's a balance we also have heard from people saying, you know, we want to, it's important for people to have agency over what happens at the end of their life and to be able to tell people what they want and hopefully have people that will honor what they've asked for. But then some guy the other day said, but I'm not going to be here, so I really don't care. Do whatever you want. And in the end, you know, it really is about the people who are left behind.

Annalouiza (15:16.11)
Right? Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:23.073)
That's another really good reason to this conversation because the more they can understand and more they can be on board with you for what you want to have happen, the more you can be on board with what they want to have happen, the less likely there's going to be conflicts or issues that are going to come up between disagreeing people. And in the end, it's true, you won't be there.

Annalouiza (15:47.362)
You won't be there.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:48.046)
And you've got, well, yeah, I mean, you won't be in a place you can make the decision. So the decision will be made by hopefully people you trust and hopefully in the way you want them to be. So yeah, that's important to, as you said, I think that's really good thing to note that is just withhold judgment. Don't try to convince somebody that they should do something because you think it's the right thing. So.

Annalouiza (15:56.29)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (16:08.224)
Right. Right.

That's right. Well, and in the same vein, you know, I, I've shared this before in our podcast, how, my kids had a moment when they were trying to figure out how to take care of our family cat's body after he died. And one child was against burial. The other child was against cremation. And it occurred to me at that moment that I had always said, told the kids like when I die, you two just decide what.

you want to do. I really have no preference, but I realize like it's a disservice to allow them to have to make that choice in this acute moment of grief. And I would rather just take care of it and think about it, decide. And that way there's no strife. You're not making this a situation where there'll be more strife. So again, like if you're talking to your elderly parent and their siblings, it is a really good idea to find out.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:41.463)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:51.149)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:00.29)
Right.

Annalouiza (17:09.868)
What do they want and do my siblings know? Can we write this down? Can you record this? Can I videotape this? Whatever. just so that all of us can really know that these are your true words.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:13.259)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:25.589)
Yeah. And also be there in conversation about, this something you can be a part of? Some people may say, I really don't, I have so much problem with that. I can't have anything to do with that. then they can maybe say, well, maybe you opt out of participation in this because this is their wish and I want to honor their wish. but again, it's just having the conversations ahead of time is important.

Annalouiza (17:39.33)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:56.046)
And so getting these conversations going in whatever way you can are just a great thing to do because it's still going to be fraught. It's still going to be hard because people are going to be in grief. There's going to be a lot of emotions. But the more you've had time to get the muscle memory, if you will, of what you have talked about, what you plan to do, what you expect to do, what do you expect to have happen.

Annalouiza (17:56.088)
Right.

Annalouiza (18:10.658)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:24.555)
the easier it's going to be for everybody when it does happen.

Annalouiza (18:28.29)
That's right. That's right. So the other way that we have talked about opening up the conversation is you pick up a book and you start reading it. And once you're done reading it, you can just say, Hey, I just read this really cool book. Have you thought about the end of life? I pulled out, I pulled out two books that make me just giddy with like, I'm so excited to die.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:38.507)
Hahaha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:47.64)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:54.925)
Ha ha ha ha.

Annalouiza (18:57.262)
4,000 weeks time management for mortals. I love this not because it's like an end of life kind of piece, but we are finite creatures and to live a good life is also to plan for a good death. I feel like that's a great opening to a conversation you might want to have with people who are living as though they're never going to die, but they will, I promise.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:07.809)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:21.875)
Yes, yes indeed. It is going to happen.

Annalouiza (19:25.71)
And then the other book I have is Advice for Future Corpses, a practical perspective on death and dying. And what I really adore about this book, which I have all these notes in here that I should probably go back and read, but the New York Times said, in its loving, fierce specificity, this book on how to die is also a blessed, saccharine-free guide for how to live. And I think that...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:29.261)
I love that. What a great title.

Annalouiza (19:55.522)
You know, everybody fears speaking about the reaper, but it really will make your life richer and you'll get to really enjoy it more knowing that it'll be over at some point.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:08.685)
At some point it's definitely going to be over, right? Yeah, we, and books in general, we had a wonderful podcast episode with Andrea Warblin, Andrea Warblin Reed. Yeah, there's her book. Yeah. To See Yourself As You Vanish, incredibly beautiful book of poetry. And this woman wrote this poetry over the last years of her life. And

Annalouiza (20:19.128)
Great.

Annalouiza (20:23.854)
There it is.

Annalouiza (20:30.414)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:37.399)
just profound and her husband and a good friend of hers were on our podcast and told us, you know, read, we've read a bunch of poetry, most of first of all, which was really excellent. And really, I think just for me, it was one of the, one of the most moving podcasts we did just because this poetry was so profound and so deep and so in it, you know, into, and then we just know of another Andrea, Andrea, yeah.

Annalouiza (20:58.402)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:07.431)
Just made a movie Andrea Gibson. Yeah, talk about that movie. You just saw it. I'm gonna see it probably tonight.

Annalouiza (21:07.756)
Andrew Gibson? Yes.

Annalouiza (21:13.598)
yeah, so the title of this is a documentary. It's Come See Me in the Good Light. And it's the last year or months of Andrea Gibson's life. They were the, they are the poet laureate for Colorado. And I watched it a week ago and it really did create a lot of small conversations with people.

outside of the movie venue actually. But one thing that kept coming with people is like to watch somebody as they're living to die really like gave me an insight into who we are in those moments when somebody else is actually going through that, right? Like Andrea's wife was very hopeful the entire time, very like optimistic.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:10.253)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (22:10.958)
And Andrea just, you know, talked about like still staying strong, still getting out and doing things and still really checking in on her cancer and what was going on and being real about that. And not all of us will have an experience like that. But what I really appreciate about this poet's life is that everything felt like a like this beautiful, long poem. being so close to death makes you live. And she said that they said that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:35.168)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (22:40.204)
It was very apparent and I absolutely like, feel like crying just thinking about this movie.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:42.507)
Thank

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:46.187)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and again, like the books and the movies, they give you a way to open this conversation. Like, wow, I just saw this movie. You want to go or would you like to go see the movie with me? Or have you seen it? What do you think of it? That, by the way, just to go back and just tell you if you want to see that episode from Andrea Warble and read about the book to see yourself as you banish its episode, season four, episode 17. So recommend that highly. Here's another book.

Annalouiza (22:53.503)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (22:57.239)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (23:13.045)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:15.433)
And so my wife and I helped to manage a thing called the Griever's Library, which is one of these little mini libraries, but it's all books about grief. And this is one of the books that we just were looking at there. It's called Final Gifts. And it's written by a couple of hospice nurses who have worked in hospice for 20 years. And just this set of stories, just one story after another about what it was like, the gifts that people who are dying

Annalouiza (23:29.344)
I guess, yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:44.034)
can give you and the gifts you can give back just by paying attention and by understanding them. again, just that kind of anything like that or anything that in your life, whether it's a book or an experience that you've had, just those are just all ways to kind of open that conversation and say, or like my dog, your dog in this case, we just lost our dog and we're feeling really, we're going through all the feels around that.

Annalouiza (23:59.597)
That's right.

Annalouiza (24:11.746)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:12.381)
Has this ever happened to you? So these are all ways that just kind of, again, looking to our own stories and asking to hear other people's stories. Just a good way to get the first steps, get the conversation opened up.

Annalouiza (24:20.79)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (24:26.166)
and have this conversation. And it doesn't have to be a one and done. It's like kicking the stone down the road. It's going to change as it goes, and it's going to get smoother and easier for you to talk about the subject. And I think that people who really go into it feeling uncomfortable, the more it's broached.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:30.195)
No, hopefully not. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:37.45)
All right.

Annalouiza (24:55.756)
the easier it becomes, the less of a weight on the shoulder that they must feel.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:00.365)
Yeah, yeah, I think my experience has been with myself and with my beloveds that the conversations, they did start my son, especially I remember the very first time I mentioned this to him, he's like, I don't really want to talk about that. But you know, just over time, because we've made it a normal thing in our conversations, and as you and Louisa and her family as well, you know, it's just it's, they're, they're more comfortable about it. And they're, they're

Annalouiza (25:14.082)
Mmm.

Annalouiza (25:20.174)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:28.493)
making, they're able to make decisions and think about it and get things done toward, you know, the planning and that kind of thing. And my friends, many of my friends, same thing, you know, I just went for a walk with my friend and he's like, yeah, you know, we need to, need to get a little bit more of that done. Thanks for reminding me. So, so again, you know, it's just, it's just having that as something and not necessarily that every single time you see somebody you say, Hey, what about that's the dying, but, just said it's something that they're comfortable with. know you're comfortable with.

Annalouiza (25:38.562)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (25:53.152)
Right.

Annalouiza (25:57.25)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:58.058)
and that the conversation is there.

Annalouiza (26:00.983)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I just want to put one last thing too. There's always this idea that we don't see death until we see the big deaths, right? Like of the humans who pass. But every day I notice dead little animals. We notice a dead lawn who didn't get any water. We notice dying trees.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:05.215)
Well, yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:14.924)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:27.381)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (26:31.64)
We notice like there is a lot of death around us. if you just kind of just push yourself into just giving a little deeper glance around and bearing witness to this, just saying, Hey, like, wow, I'm so sorry, little squirrel. I did see a dead squirrel this morning. I was like, my God, it's really cold. Cause you probably just plopped off the tree. And you know, and I, and I was just like, I'm really sorry for your passing and you know,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:48.161)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:56.043)
Right

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:00.161)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (27:01.976)
So it's a good little practice to like start that muscle to notice because it's just a good practice.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:09.389)
Yeah, I mean, we had this really wonderful, another great episode with Sam, who talked about that a lot, you all the different losses that we go through. I just looked at it, it's season four, episode five, so check that out. But yeah, I think I heard you, I think you were talking about one time, somebody said, I really don't think about death at all. And you said, well, look at the leaves, know, look around, it's like winter, know, things are dying, and it's the way it works, you know.

Annalouiza (27:15.543)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (27:20.0)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (27:24.279)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (27:33.719)
Ha ha!

Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:38.99)
And so again, just having that awareness and creating that awareness in the people you love and in your community is such a great service, such an important service. And the other beautiful part of that is that we know that the fall comes, the winter comes, and then the spring comes, So things, you lose things and you gain things and things keep going. So that's something to also kind of make that conversation more.

Annalouiza (27:52.27)
That's right.

Annalouiza (28:01.964)
regenerates.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:08.589)
about hope and love and, and, and lateness instead of all just, I'm so sorry. But I mean, there's sadness too. That's, that's something to be a part of too and not to shy away from. So, yeah, we're just being open to all of that. So, well, I hope this has been helpful and we would love to hear your feedback. If you have any thoughts, we'd love to hear what your thoughts are about this. So certainly send us a link or send us a, there's a link.

Annalouiza (28:21.464)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:37.631)
in this podcast to a way to send us a text. We'd love to hear from you. Hopefully you'll let us know if you have other things you'd like us to talk about. Thanks for showing up. Thanks for being there.

Annalouiza (28:51.566)
Adios.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:52.275)
Adios!