Sam Lee Zemke (00:01.228)
Welcome everyone to another episode of End of Life Conversations Current Events, a new weekly segment. I am the editor here and a minister and grief counselor in training, Sam Lee Zemke.

Wakil David Matthews (00:19.664)
And I'm Waqil David Matthews and Interfaith Minister, Counselor, et cetera. You know us from the podcast.

Annalouiza Armendariz (00:28.834)
Yes, yes, yes, we have our our this hat. My name is the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Mendari's End of Life Conversations, podcaster and death midwife to every to all.

Wakil David Matthews (00:36.136)
You

Yeah, to all. Yeah. So Sam had a really interesting thing that he wanted to bring up from last time that we talked. And so why you go ahead, Sam? Let's get going on that.

Sam Lee Zemke (00:52.01)
Yeah, yeah, after we finished up last time, I was struck when we talked about the voices or the people, the deaths in this ice surge in this state murder spree that we're not seeing. And I wanted to bring attention to the ones that we are seeing very

Wakil David Matthews (01:14.438)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (01:21.578)
explicitly that there is, you know, there is something different to seeing it. I think, you know, what kicked off so much of a different flavor of outrage. I think it's right to question why there's disproportionate outrage from one person, one death to another. But noticing that with

Wakil David Matthews (01:22.984)
All right.

Wakil David Matthews (01:44.582)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (01:46.414)
Thank you.

Sam Lee Zemke (01:51.66)
And it could also, that we saw it in front of our eyes. We saw the execution of these people and the soul and multiple times from multiple angles over and over and over again. And that has a different impact than reading a name, than reading an obituary or reading an account. You know, it's this undeniable, like, know, thing.

Wakil David Matthews (01:53.245)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (02:02.36)
multiple times.

Wakil David Matthews (02:03.813)
Right, yeah, over and over. Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (02:14.2)
Mm-hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (02:21.048)
So I wanted to talk about that and talk about the presence of our phones, the presence of just witnessing death in various forms, you know, the genocide in Palestine. Also, we've been watching that for years in a new way that we didn't see in the past and how that has picked up our awareness and

Wakil David Matthews (02:21.307)
Yeah, yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (02:50.036)
and impacted us. So that is what I have brought for our dialogue today.

Wakil David Matthews (02:51.707)
Yeah, Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, we think about like Ukraine, we watched Ukraine for the first year or so. And the other thing that happens with that is you get numbed out, I think. So then also the news sort of just goes, well, you know, we've talked enough about that. How often have you seen anything about the destruction in the Ukraine lately? Or even in Gaza, for that matter? That's a that's an old story. You know, now we're not watching it anymore. And then there's a little the little five year old, you know, with its cute little backpack. Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (03:04.418)
We do.

Annalouiza Armendariz (03:11.374)
All right.

Mm-hmm.

Live.

Wakil David Matthews (03:21.863)
You know, all these things, the way the news cycle works is it's in our faces and we're like overwhelmed by it and we're talking about it and we're doing things and then the next thing comes up. And it's also part of the tactics that are being deployed by our government right now to overwhelm us with more and more insanity to try to keep us from thinking about any of those, right? Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (03:40.195)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (03:42.059)
tragedy.

Annalouiza Armendariz (03:45.166)
Well, and even before the government at large was creating distractions to keep us from like being human, I think even before then, you know, the onset of the telephones brought, and I'm going to tell you, like when COVID started, I used to refresh my phone, like, I don't know, 100 times a day to see if there was more news, right? Like what else is going on? Where are people like, you know, in this dystopian

Wakil David Matthews (03:55.676)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (04:08.581)
You

Annalouiza Armendariz (04:15.406)
kind of absence of connection in the real world. I was checking that phone to see Italy and to check, you know, different states. Where's my dad at? Is there some news coming from there? And, you know, we're death, like we're rubberneckers, you know, we're like death rubberneckers, like, where's it happening? You know, what's going on? And, and it's, it's, it's both like important and also it creates a decent sensation of our

Wakil David Matthews (04:25.617)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (04:28.943)
Right?

Sam Lee Zemke (04:29.208)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (04:44.938)
are valuing of life, whether it be children, immigrants, trees, animals, right? Like we're just like, yeah, OK, know, frog that's gone. So yeah, I really appreciate this conversation because I think people want to talk about, again, people want to have this conversation, but we don't know where to begin. How do we talk about like I'm feeling strange reading about this loss?

Wakil David Matthews (04:56.769)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (05:08.411)
Right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (05:13.11)
watching this take place on my phone. It's harrowing. And then, you know, what do we do? You know, what does our soul need to do?

Wakil David Matthews (05:19.611)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Well, yeah, one thing we do and that seems to be, it seems to be coming up with a lot of people now as we get together and talk about it, or we get together with our communities and we cry about it, or we do ceremony around that ritual. So those are things we talk about. And of course our last podcast episode was how you start conversations, which is again, sort of that same thing. And then one coming up at the end of next month will be about ritual and ceremony. So, so those are.

Annalouiza Armendariz (05:30.861)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (05:37.102)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (05:52.102)
you know, things that are on top of mind for all, for us. And, and, so that's one answer to that question. But I just, you know, talk more Sam about the impact that it seems that has, that you think that has on us, on you.

Annalouiza Armendariz (05:55.446)
Mm-hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (06:07.52)
I think you both spoke to it really well, the tension of both a more immediate response and also some of the desensitization as it goes along. I remember especially after October 7th in Palestine, heightened emotion and the response and people were out in the streets and people were responding in a really, really big way.

Annalouiza Armendariz (06:27.79)
Hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (06:35.948)
because it hit us so hard. then over just years of that happening, and now there's other things, you know, losses and chaos and death in our immediate lives, which, you know, can be discussed in a design or opportunism also. You know, don't look at that because you got to deal with what's in front of you now.

Annalouiza Armendariz (06:38.574)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (06:46.4)
losses and chaos.

Wakil David Matthews (06:58.268)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (07:06.968)
But I...

One of the things that seems to be arising and it's some of the reports out of Minneapolis is how potlucks and block parties have become places of community organizing for people to come together and build community with one another and grieve together and support one another and

Wakil David Matthews (07:25.628)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (07:26.062)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (07:37.016)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (07:37.432)
It can all roll from one lady making sandwiches for the community.

Wakil David Matthews (07:44.155)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (07:44.291)
That's right. That's right. Well, and I really appreciate that folks are doing that because it is part of our ritual when somebody has passed to get the food, to set up a circle of chairs, maybe build a bonfire, maybe play music. And it gives us this time and space to grieve slowly and process what we have just experienced.

But with today, with our constant phone and or community at large being targeted, it does feel like we almost need like a 24-7 grief space, right? Because shit's happening all the time. And all of us are processing at different speeds and different moments in different ways. And I was just thinking about this. There has to be, and we know this, but there's a human.

Sam Lee Zemke (08:27.224)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (08:42.36)
dissonance like we cannot process this much grief so fast. It's really hard. And even though we are, you know, we're pained by these images, and then we, we go through this, we spiral into this, our grief circles. And I feel like our body wants more. I feel like our hearts need more. I feel like our, like the somatic desire to connect with others and hug each other is there and

Wakil David Matthews (08:47.205)
Right, yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (09:03.655)
Okay.

Annalouiza Armendariz (09:12.174)
It's not enough. We don't have it. We were not able to do this in this time and space.

Wakil David Matthews (09:17.573)
So true, so true, yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (09:21.112)
I think one of... Go ahead.

Wakil David Matthews (09:23.929)
I was going to say one of the other things that is a part of this media that we have is that we also are not being shown a lot of things that are people that are being harmed. It's chosen for us by either algorithms or the media companies or whomever. So we are also maybe not paying as much attention or noticing as much as we should be or could be.

of the other things that are dying and being lost and other people who are being squashed, know, and harmed and other things that are being harmed because it's, you know, it's not, we can't, for one thing, we couldn't possibly process all of it even if we wanted to, right? But even then it's like, since these things are chosen for us by algorithms and by media organizations, what are we missing?

Annalouiza Armendariz (10:00.239)
harmed.

Annalouiza Armendariz (10:11.541)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (10:20.529)
What are we not seeing that we would want to see and that we would want to pay attention to? And how do we make those connections? And that again, I think is community can help us with that, right? Because our community is like, can gather right here, right now, the three of us, and start saying, yeah, what about that? What about that? And so that's where community can also be a really important part of this processing.

Annalouiza Armendariz (10:21.326)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (10:30.114)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (10:36.718)
Mm-hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (10:44.536)
It's like a positive outsourcing of attention rather than the negative outsourcing of attention that is relying entirely on digital spaces and our phones or the feeds that, what Hila you're saying, are designed for us in whatever makes money or does, achieves a goal that is not our own. Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (10:48.782)
No!

Wakil David Matthews (10:49.745)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (10:54.36)
That's right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (11:01.016)
Right.

or keeps us

Wakil David Matthews (11:06.087)
Yes, exactly.

Annalouiza Armendariz (11:08.332)
It's achieving that goal. That's right. Yes. And you know, I would love to see more footage of groups getting together in their community, right? Like it would just be so delightful. Like, you know, sandwiches being passed out and a hugs, the hugs given to one another.

Wakil David Matthews (11:18.395)
care.

Sam Lee Zemke (11:27.468)
I'll offer you a hug here. I saw a wonderful video that, hug. I saw a wonderful video from the recent LA protests, anti-ice protests, where a group of people were out protesting and a veteran came up in full reaction mode.

Annalouiza Armendariz (11:29.034)
Yay!

Wakil David Matthews (11:29.805)
You

Wakil David Matthews (11:35.034)
You

Sam Lee Zemke (11:52.461)
full adversarial like you're disrespecting why aren't you respecting you know the people that are that are sacrificing for this and you know ra ra ra ra and it and it was getting big and he started to walk away and you can hear somebody off in the distance being like man i'm just trying to see if you need a hug and he's like walking away and he's like do you you know what what did you say to me he's like do you want a hug do you need a hug and the guy turned around and they walked up to each other and they hugged each other

Wakil David Matthews (12:09.169)
Hahaha.

Wakil David Matthews (12:20.071)
All right.

Sam Lee Zemke (12:21.29)
And like people in this crowd are immediately weeping and are like, yeah. And then another guy with a camera goes up and hugs the guy and like, that was so powerful. That was so powerful to see and more of that.

Wakil David Matthews (12:32.967)
Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (12:37.27)
Well, Bad Bunny said it last night, right? Like, meet hate with love.

Wakil David Matthews (12:41.443)
Yeah, right. Well, and I think, you know, it's such that's so beautiful. And maybe, you know, something would be really valuable. It would be to learn how to play or how to play the algorithms, you know, to start thinking about instead of seeing instead of automatically spending, you know, it's it's it's moments that you spend on things, right? That's how they do it. So if you start thinking about I'm going to spend more time watching people hugging each other, I'm going to spend more time watching people singing together.

Annalouiza Armendariz (13:05.538)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (13:08.711)
I'm going to spend more time and then I'm going to slip right by the pain and the suffering and the sorrow. would change your, you you could train your algorithm. There should be a whole course on training your algorithms. Right?

Annalouiza Armendariz (13:13.902)
Mm.

Sam Lee Zemke (13:17.602)
Yep.

Annalouiza Armendariz (13:19.63)
Well, one, our algorithm will pick this up from listening to our conversation. It's already like generating like, where am I gonna go? Because I have to tell you, in the evenings, I like to go to, right before sleep, I try to find parrot videos on my Instagram. And every night I get parrot videos and I'm like, ha, ha ha. From my like, you know, my nightly cackle.

Wakil David Matthews (13:34.197)
Hahaha!

Sam Lee Zemke (13:35.148)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (13:37.423)
Imagine!

Sam Lee Zemke (13:40.066)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (13:43.131)
Yeah, yeah, my wife likes to, my wife likes the babies, the laughing babies, you know, so now anytime she turns.

Sam Lee Zemke (13:43.832)
Yeah. And, and I think... Go ahead.

yeah i like this i'm on a i'm on a see i'm on a sea lion kick watching sea lions go and

Annalouiza Armendariz (13:49.194)
what are you like?

Wakil David Matthews (13:54.344)
You

Annalouiza Armendariz (13:54.645)
Love it. Yeah. yeah. But you know, I guess it is true. Like it gives us delight. Like let's, we should actually delight in the people actually connecting through hugs and laughter and song, right? Like what a

Wakil David Matthews (14:09.381)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (14:09.624)
And the beauty of the world and understand also the emotional whiplash that that can cause. If you're upsetting your algorithm and you have bombed out rubble next to a cute cat video, there's an impact to the emotional state. I think about the...

Wakil David Matthews (14:20.762)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (14:24.603)
You

Wakil David Matthews (14:33.496)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (14:34.07)
Mm-hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (14:38.38)
the Marvel movies or the Disneyfication that we've been looking at in media, where every time there's an emotionally vulnerable scene, it gets followed up with a joke. And the amount of discussion that's happened in media analysis circles about emotional whiplash and that, and seeing that in a real world way. these are what we're talking about, I think, is just noticing.

Wakil David Matthews (14:53.863)
Mm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (15:00.888)
Hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (15:00.997)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (15:07.414)
What are we noticing and what are we not noticing? And so bringing awareness to those pieces and to return to our point here, what griefs are we noticing and what are running around underneath our consciousness that we're still carrying, still holding, and maybe don't have anywhere to go? Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (15:07.968)
Yes, yes.

Wakil David Matthews (15:10.928)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (15:17.144)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (15:28.588)
Mm.

Wakil David Matthews (15:28.668)
Right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (15:33.739)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (15:34.916)
Mm-hmm. It would be really, it does.

Annalouiza Armendariz (15:36.866)
Yeah, it becomes a burden, right? It becomes something heavy that we can't even understand. mean, everybody's talking about how tired they are all the time. It could be that is the symptom of our burden.

Wakil David Matthews (15:41.671)
Yeah, we may not even know.

Wakil David Matthews (15:50.096)
Absolutely. Yeah, I'm sure that's true. Yeah. I mean, everybody I know is telling me when I talk to them how tired they are and how overwhelmed they feel and they'll blame it on their work or they'll blame it on, you know, just not getting enough sleep or whatever. But I bet, yeah, I bet you could easily prove that a lot of it has to do with what exactly what you're talking about soundness, this disconnect that happens when we are being hammered by different takes. And I also think that's a very normal response.

Annalouiza Armendariz (16:05.314)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (16:12.62)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (16:19.943)
kind of protecting yourself by coming back with humor or coming back with distraction of whatever sort because it is as hard as painful and it hurts. so nobody wants to be hurt. Nobody wants to be in pain, but pain's there for a reason too. We need that. Without it, we don't notice what we need to notice, right?

Annalouiza Armendariz (16:34.626)
Mm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (16:46.656)
Yeah, it makes me think of, you know, traditions that they have a Sabbath too, because you probably have time to somatically metabolize the information that has been in front of you for this whole week, right? And you're like, and, you know, rest and breathe and take a walk and do nothing but process.

Wakil David Matthews (17:00.263)
Mm.

Wakil David Matthews (17:08.091)
Yeah. Or the mini Sabbath that I've heard recommended that just like where your phone is automatically turned off at 11 o'clock at night, doesn't come back on until nine in the morning. You've got that mini time to stay in process and not be looking at the media, you know? So I think those would be, those are good practices to suggest too. Just take some time. Your phone does actually, most phones do actually have applications on them that will turn them off. You know, take a break.

Annalouiza Armendariz (17:14.636)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (17:22.56)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (17:36.872)
silence them.

Wakil David Matthews (17:38.213)
Yeah, just put them into silence mode so you don't have to be aware, noticing, or you can put timers too. That's the other thing that is something I've suggested to people who tell me they're addicted to YouTube or they're addicted to TikTok or whatever. You can put timers on them and then they'll turn themselves off.

Annalouiza Armendariz (17:38.882)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (17:45.069)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (17:54.863)
They do. My daughter put a timer on my Instagram a while ago. And I was like, Wow, I really do watch that much. No longer. No longer.

Sam Lee Zemke (18:00.205)
Hehehehehe

Wakil David Matthews (18:00.711)
Yeah, I know it surprises no longer right well and unfortunately they also give you they give you a little thing like do you want to keep going? Damn it.

Sam Lee Zemke (18:06.11)
Yeah, digital.

Annalouiza Armendariz (18:12.458)
Yeah, well, are there more parrot videos?

Sam Lee Zemke (18:13.483)
Right.

I found one recently that will put an overlay in front and I can actually set it up so that it forces me to take two deep breaths, do four rounds of box breathing before I can reaccess it and interrupt the habitual cycle. That's pretty fun. It's called screenzen. I don't know if we're plugging things here, but that's been really helpful and pretty detailed control.

Annalouiza Armendariz (18:34.55)
cool!

I'm going to check that out.

Wakil David Matthews (18:38.193)
I love it.

Annalouiza Armendariz (18:45.005)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (18:46.353)
Yeah, that.

Sam Lee Zemke (18:46.36)
But yeah, mean, there's a question that brings up the topic of like boundaries. How do we have healthy boundaries in ourselves, in our world, in our community? How do we like, God, was seeing something the other day about burnout and overwhelm. And oftentimes we can see that and we can feel that, I guess.

Wakil David Matthews (18:52.081)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (19:11.63)
and

Sam Lee Zemke (19:14.924)
The response is to withdraw and to say, I'm so tired. I'm so overwhelmed. need time alone. I need to shut down. need to have those strong boundaries go in a shell. And sometimes, especially in times like this, back to outsourcing some of this processing that we have to do, is sometimes, even if it's hard, go see your friends or do something engaged with the community if you can.

Wakil David Matthews (19:17.178)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (19:45.068)
can find it and finding purpose, finding activity can help to unburden that part.

Wakil David Matthews (19:52.987)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (19:53.005)
Right. To re-nourish yourself for your soul. But I am going to throw this out too. So I really appreciate the idea of rather than withdrawing to go find somebody. But we probably all know people who spend all their time spewing every bit of vitriol and they are not watching the cute sea lion videos. I promise you they are not. Or parrots or kitties.

Sam Lee Zemke (19:56.598)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (20:14.331)
You

Sam Lee Zemke (20:16.216)
Right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (20:22.456)
You know, how do we talk about, it's very, I have a very, like, I want to be cautious about what I'm about to say, because I know that there are people who are experiencing a grief of a loved one, who their grief cycle may last a year or 10 years, like, you know, and people might end up not wanting to engage with them because they like, my God, here we go again, we're going to talk about the thing, right? And then, you know,

Sam Lee Zemke (20:38.648)
you

Annalouiza Armendariz (20:51.554)
conversely, like people who only want to discuss the travesties of every moment of every day. And there's nothing else. There's no joy to be found in any corner of their time astral plane. So how do we negotiate a boundary for oneself while giving people the space that they need to speak out their grief?

Wakil David Matthews (21:05.819)
He

Wakil David Matthews (21:15.845)
Mmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (21:19.07)
It's rare, you do find people who only kind of obsess about their one thing, one loss. And I appreciate that because you don't know, we don't know all their story, right? So how can we both take care of them and take care of ourselves?

Wakil David Matthews (21:32.326)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (21:37.34)
Good question. Good thing to consider and try to be discerning about. I think it's a... mean, because we're the kind of people who give and want to give and minister, that's our work, right? For us, it's like, our boundaries might be not quite as needful as others, maybe. We've trained and we purposely do that. We want to do that. But then again, even no matter who you are,

Annalouiza Armendariz (21:48.878)
you

Wakil David Matthews (22:05.905)
there's some point at which you need to really be checking in. And that's why I think that the whole process of just, like Sam said, take some breaths, you know, and notice what your body's doing. Let your body tell you, you know, if your body's starting to clamp up or, you know, if you're noticing that that's a noticing that can help you to say, you know what, I just need to take a break for a while. Maybe we could talk again tomorrow or something. So you don't shut people down, but you say, this is, you you're honest about it. And I think all of us could use more of that kind of

Annalouiza Armendariz (22:30.862)
Right. Right.

Wakil David Matthews (22:35.557)
Somatic training just to be aware of our bodies and what our bodies are telling us, right? Yeah

Annalouiza Armendariz (22:38.678)
Right. Right. So it's a self-awareness. But I am going to also say this, and I think I've mentioned this story. I've probably told this story before, but that's that what is that big church in San Francisco glide? It's big. Were you there with me the day that we went and somebody came in from the street and disrupted the choir? Were you there? OK.

Sam Lee Zemke (22:39.669)
Absolutely.

Wakil David Matthews (22:56.241)
Yeah, yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (23:05.115)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (23:06.988)
So I tell this story all the time because, especially now that I'm working in community with the unhoused populations, it makes people nervous to have somebody just vent. And I understand. It's like there is something in their lived experience that is very deeply wounding, very grief-riddled. They want to talk about this. And sometimes I do have time to sit there and listen. Not a problem, right?

But what I do appreciate about that moment I learned from Glide was to not turn away, but to mirror back what the person said. So in this instance, you could say something like, I hear that it's really hard for you to have experienced X, Y, Z. I'm really sorry that it's still so present to you. And that way, they are heard, and you're not just cutting them off in their grief.

And if you have the capacity, could continue to listen and keep mirroring back in that moment. Or you could say, right now, I don't have the time or space or energy or bandwidth to carry this on. But I hope you find somebody who can accompany you during this time. Because it's a dignified way of saying, see what you're doing, what's going on with you. And I personally can't take care of it right now. I think that you can.

Wakil David Matthews (24:26.076)
care.

Annalouiza Armendariz (24:33.036)
You can find folks to help.

Wakil David Matthews (24:34.703)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (24:35.106)
Yeah, what you're feeling is real and valid and worth listening to for somebody. yeah, it's worthwhile to have somebody listen to you.

Wakil David Matthews (24:39.936)
Annalouiza Armendariz (24:48.056)
Do you hear him, Buck Hill?

Wakil David Matthews (24:49.561)
No, we lost you there for a minute, Come back. Come back. Say that again.

Sam Lee Zemke (24:52.2)
that's okay.

Sam Lee Zemke (24:57.196)
Hello? Can you hear me? I'm here. Yeah. Okay. was just, it's a good thing you have me so that I can edit all of this later. I was, I was speaking to the, the grace you were, you were modeling Ana Luisa of communicating to somebody that they are being heard.

Annalouiza Armendariz (24:57.558)
No, yeah, there you are.

Wakil David Matthews (25:01.029)
Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (25:01.452)
Okay, say that all over again.

Annalouiza Armendariz (25:07.819)
you

Sam Lee Zemke (25:26.794)
and that having somebody to listen to them or hold space is something that they deserve, that we all deserve to have somebody listen to us. And it's hard when we're stuck on a one thing and the person who's gonna talk about the one hard thing or all the hard things in the world again and again and again.

Annalouiza Armendariz (25:35.918)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (25:37.287)
Yeah, yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (25:44.776)
Again. Yeah, Yeah. And actually the story you told early on about the person being hugged, that was that kind of response in a way. That was somebody not just saying, I'm afraid of you. I don't want you around. You're scaring us. It's like, you know what? Maybe what you need is a hug and I'm going to offer that to you. And that's another way you can respond to that. I mean, that can be threatening. Yeah. I mean, there's people out there that are so angry.

Annalouiza Armendariz (25:47.406)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (26:02.574)
and

Sam Lee Zemke (26:06.23)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (26:14.087)
so hurt. did an event down here for no kings or whatever. I don't remember losing track. And there was a whole bunch of us down by our ferry dock here in Edmonds. And somebody in the ferry line got out of his car and came out and started cursing at us and yelling at us and telling us how horrible and stupid we were. Really cruel and mean and nasty stuff.

Annalouiza Armendariz (26:14.348)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (26:22.54)
Which one?

Sam Lee Zemke (26:23.682)
You

Wakil David Matthews (26:41.895)
The responses were very interesting up and down the line. This is of course, because it's suburban Seattle. It was mostly old white folks, right? And he's calling, he's shouting about, who's you guys have never spilled blood for, you know, several people said, oh yes I have, you know. And, but there was things like, for one thing at one point everybody just started laughing. That was interesting. It was kind of a, you know, overwhelmed the cursing with laughing. But then somebody next to me said, tell me what's hurting you.

Sam Lee Zemke (26:50.136)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (26:58.177)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (27:11.335)
right now. Where have you been hurt? And of course he didn't pay any attention to that. And it occurred to me that in that case, like he was across the street, across like four lanes of traffic. But if somebody had been on that side of the street and had walked up to him and said, hey, could you use a hug? Or can you want to just come over here? I'll buy you a cup of coffee and you can tell me more about what's on your heart and why this is so important to you. It could have been a way of, I mean, he might also have just told him to go to hell.

Annalouiza Armendariz (27:12.022)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (27:28.557)
and

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (27:39.26)
But it's interesting and it takes courage to do that, And so I think I just want to make the point here that it's worth it and that taking the courage to say, hey, maybe you just need a hug or, you know, can I hear more about what's on your mind and what's on your heart and I'll buy you a cup of coffee, let's go sit down over here. Anything like that, even though it can be scary and dangerous even, you know, I encourage people to try to rise up.

Annalouiza Armendariz (27:59.151)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (28:07.631)
rise up to that place because it can be a way to break down those barriers that we really need.

Annalouiza Armendariz (28:12.064)
Mm-hmm. And I'm also going to just like have a little PCA PSA here for folks who are you know, I'm gonna go out and hug before you do that also assess right because there are neurodivergent my daughter would flip out if you hug her so you know you have to you have to in those moments when people are spewing vitriol and harshness and yes, maybe you're ready to like just open up with a hug

Wakil David Matthews (28:19.975)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (28:39.17)
You know, I find that sometimes just holding my heart and just being like, I am so sorry that you're feeling this right now. And I, you know, if, I could do anything in this moment for you, you know, would you take a hug or would you, know, whatever, a cup of coffee, but take care of yourself and also demonstrate very gently. Like what are, how are you available? Right? Not everybody wants a hug. Some people just want to slap.

Wakil David Matthews (28:59.409)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's true.

Sam Lee Zemke (29:02.134)
And not everybody, yeah, not everybody has the space to deescalate in a situation like that. Sometimes it's not, there's just not an opening to bring somebody down from that heightened state because we're all, I mean, we're all heightened and some, you know, a lot of people don't have the skills, the tools to bring down, you know.

Wakil David Matthews (29:07.409)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (29:08.782)
That's right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (29:16.782)
Right.

Wakil David Matthews (29:19.111)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (29:24.142)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (29:24.935)
Yeah. And there's good trainings. I would recommend looking for training because people, there are trainings about dealing with that kind of stuff. And I think it's really important to have that kind of practice, know, do a little practicing with people who know how to teach training and teach deescalation and teach that kind of stuff. Because yeah, you don't want to get yourself in a place of danger. You don't want to put other people in danger by misreading the situation or yeah.

So yeah, being thoughtful and cautious and courageous, all of those things together.

Annalouiza Armendariz (29:57.357)
And also going back to, you know, people who are encountering grief and withdrawing from all the media downloads that we're getting. Also pay attention to the nonverbal, you know, pieces of folks just being, you know, closed off and just tired and they'll, or they might say, I'm really tired. And the same language can hold true in that moment. Like, I am so sorry that you're feeling all this and it is a very difficult time right now, you know.

Wakil David Matthews (30:08.657)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (30:25.964)
Would you care to like sit with me for five minutes and just share your heart? Or can I hug you? Right? Like these tools are for people in the full spectrum of grief, of grief, you know, like this grief 101.

Wakil David Matthews (30:34.169)
Absolutely. Right. Again.

Sam Lee Zemke (30:36.756)
Hehehehe.

Yeah, the persistent grief that is around us all the time. we are... I mean, Annalouiza, you were telling a story about a guy who didn't notice the death all around. And I think part of what's happening now is, in our world, is there is grief and death and suffering all around us all the time. We're in a time and a place where...

Wakil David Matthews (30:44.069)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (30:44.088)
That's right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (30:55.18)
That's right.

Sam Lee Zemke (31:07.394)
We just can't go back to sleep and can't go forget that it's there. It's there all the time. We're very aware that we are in the soup of grief and sorrow all the time.

Wakil David Matthews (31:10.823)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (31:21.816)
That's right. That's right.

Wakil David Matthews (31:22.299)
Yeah, yeah, which is a wonderful way to segue to part two, which come back next week and we will be more about.

Sam Lee Zemke (31:27.064)
Part 2 comes back next week and we will talk about something related.

Annalouiza Armendariz (31:28.182)
Okay, wait a second. That's right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (31:36.29)
Well, we're going to be talking about how we see grief all around the world and all the time, and we dismiss it as our for course for living.

Wakil David Matthews (31:39.771)
All around us, all the time. Yeah, yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (31:41.73)
Yes.

Wakil David Matthews (31:45.285)
Yeah, yeah. So I will pause this one and see how can do that without stopping it. Pause, pause.

Annalouiza Armendariz (31:52.696)
Do we need to if we have our editor here and you can slice it?

Wakil David Matthews (31:53.851)
No, guess we could just say, editor, this is the pause.

Sam Lee Zemke (31:57.846)
Okay. I don't know how I'd move that from one project to another for releasing, but...

Annalouiza Armendariz (31:58.583)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (32:03.922)
Well, we had the, I don't know, do want to stop it and start a new one? That's okay, let's do that. Okay, stop. All right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (32:04.438)
Also, we should probably stop it.

Sam Lee Zemke (32:09.891)
Yeah, let's stop it and start another.