Wakil David Matthews (00:02.541)
Welcome back everybody. In our last episode, we finished up by thinking about all of the other things that we notice or don't notice and how important it is to notice the things around us that we are grieving and that we're losing all the time. And so we thought we'd start kind of go on from there. we were just talking about Ana Luisa had shared a story. You want to share your story again? Because that's a good kind of a good way to talk about.

you know how that how we how we miss things and without the goose

Sam Lee Zemke (00:32.201)
Yes please, the man with the goose.

Annalouiza Armendariz (00:32.922)
yes, that's right. Okay. Yes. Okay. So I'm the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Armendariz. And just a few months ago, was a ceremony to the city of Denver has donated some public space for indigenous folks to come and replant some, you know, native grasses and do more ceremony out in this space. And I showed up for the

the big hurrah, lots of folks out there, you know, really excited. And of course I, you know, talk to people and people ask what I do. And then I mentioned the podcast and I was talking to this young man, maybe thirties and well dressed, you know, snappy, snappy city guy. And I said, yeah, I podcast about death and dying. And he says, that's interesting. But he's like, I have not experienced any death in my life whatsoever.

And I mean, I just stood there and I was like, but you are like in this park right now, you know, the leaves are falling off of trees and the grass is dead beneath our feet. And you know, there's a dead goose down the way. Like it's visible. That's a death. And when I was struck by he really did this kind of like 360 circle and he was like, oh my God, I never thought about it. Like

Wakil David Matthews (01:32.163)
you

Annalouiza Armendariz (01:59.544)
things are dead around me and I'm like, news flashed. And not to poke fun at that, even though I did, but it really truly is a matter of being trained, of being shown the world around you in both its life and death and the cycle in between.

Wakil David Matthews (02:01.955)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Annalouiza Armendariz (02:29.1)
I think that a lot of people just assume that because they haven't had a grandparent die or maybe they've never had a pet or whatever that they surely have not experienced death firsthand. But like we've talked on the podcast, Wachio, like we lose, you know, dreams and we lose friendships and we lose our favorite rings. know, death, death happens to us. We grieve. We have a perpetual kind of, it's in our lineage to grieve.

Wakil David Matthews (02:56.705)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, that was the story. Yeah. Well, and we also we also mentioned as we were talking about this, that, all around us right now, climate change is happening and so many things are being affected by that, I think does affect a lot of us when we without us even really recognizing it, when we we feel the differences in the climate, we feel the differences in the the amount of

Annalouiza Armendariz (02:58.104)
You know, so Sam, yes, that was the story.

Sam Lee Zemke (03:03.265)
Thank you.

Wakil David Matthews (03:24.811)
the weather, you know, and the way our plants are responding and the way animals are responding. I think, you know, making it a point to notice that is another reason for this kind of conversation for us to talk about this.

Annalouiza Armendariz (03:37.902)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (03:41.485)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (03:41.528)
Sam.

Sam Lee Zemke (03:41.675)
think, yeah, I think, well, first, my name is Sam Lee Zemke. I edit this podcast. And I'm a, I'm a minister and grief counselor in training. And I was mostly thinking in this last five minutes that we forgot to introduce the podcast. So

Annalouiza Armendariz (03:45.678)
That's right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (04:07.638)
End of live conversations. Welcome to current events.

Sam Lee Zemke (04:08.929)
End of life conversations, welcome to current events. To current events. It does. Let's see, what I would contribute is in my current training, ministry is, like said, focused on grief counseling right now.

Wakil David Matthews (04:09.507)
Yeah, yeah, and I'm Waqil David Matthews. I forgot to that too. But it does say that on my thing. Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (04:18.698)
sillies as is life.

Sam Lee Zemke (04:36.097)
And we're reading a really amazing book called Earth grief by Steven Herrod Buhner. For anybody who's looking and wants to see a highly recommend this and I would like to read a little brief thing.

I can find it.

Wakil David Matthews (05:00.163)
Don't worry, we have a good editor. Making work for himself right now.

Sam Lee Zemke (05:01.697)
You're the good one.

Sam Lee Zemke (05:08.321)
Astonishingly enough, the decision to turn the face to the source of the pain and grief, to fully embrace it, stimulates over time the emergence of the form of earth work that is uniquely yours to do. Work that comes from your essential genius, the work you were born to do, the work that earth needs you and only you to do.

Wakil David Matthews (05:23.362)
Mmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (05:26.19)
You

Wakil David Matthews (05:33.421)
yeah, yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (05:35.598)
Wakil David Matthews (05:39.277)
Beautiful. Very well put. Very well said.

Annalouiza Armendariz (05:41.965)
It is very well put, because as an aside, last night I had this very stressful dream about two big Kodiak bears that who were passing by my yard and I, you know, I was like, I closed down the doors because I knew they could come in and they still try to come in and I was like, what is my and I woke up thinking I was like, what do I need to take care of right now because

Wakil David Matthews (06:08.316)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza Armendariz (06:09.964)
them big Kodiaks were trying to get in my house. So yeah, it's

Wakil David Matthews (06:13.283)
They're asking for some help. Maybe that's related. You talked about a movie you saw about the loss of a glacier and how big of an impact that was on you.

Annalouiza Armendariz (06:23.63)
Yes. So as many of you have heard on this podcast that I'm a reluctant crier and I don't do it stifle it, but I know I don't ever feel like grief doesn't show up as tears for me. But I was at Sundance recently and the film festival, ended up picking a lot of documentaries and the very first one I chose was one called Time and Water.

Wakil David Matthews (06:31.811)
You

Annalouiza Armendariz (06:52.896)
It's a United States and Icelandic movie based on a book by this guy named Andre Snav Magnusson. I wept and wept because of Iceland actually had a funeral for their glacier who died. They put it out, people showed up, and Andre was tasked with writing the obituary for the glacier.

because in Iceland they believe that these are living beings. And it just, was so devastating. And this is, know, the story was glacier time and water. Also, it was a very, so freaking cool. It's like thinking geological time and, you know, our fake time that we create.

Wakil David Matthews (07:32.963)
Hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (07:44.823)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (07:49.571)
Thank

Annalouiza Armendariz (07:50.113)
And then, know, Andre spends his time watching videos of his grandparents who became glacier glaciologists and their camping trips to a few glaciers. And so he's documenting time through images, which he thinks he's like, you know, at the very beginning of story, he's like, I am sending this out as a missive to the future.

Wakil David Matthews (07:59.073)
Annalouiza Armendariz (08:16.652)
I don't even know if I'll be alive if this ever matters to anybody else, but I'm going to share this story of this glacier who has died. that like five minutes in, like, God, just tears. Like it was...

Wakil David Matthews (08:20.567)
Well.

Wakil David Matthews (08:28.889)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (08:32.814)
Yes, because I do really mourn the loss of animal and plant life. It means a lot to me because I'm an outdoor girl. So I feel more connected to the outdoors than I am to humans, So yes, it was a great movie.

Wakil David Matthews (08:41.997)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (08:47.499)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I was just reading an article that was talking about how climate change has changed the way plants are responding because they have thousands and thousands of years of DNA that tells them how to respond and in what timing and what things to pay attention to. And because of climate change, those inputs are different now. And so they aren't getting the right inputs and they're not coming.

fertile, know, fertile or flowering or whatever in their normal timeframe, which affects everything because of course, plants are connected to animals connected to insects, all of those things. Just reading this other book about umbelt about the way we perceive things. So all of these creatures, all of these different living things, their umbelt is to perceive things in much different ways than we possibly can, but they're all affected.

Annalouiza Armendariz (09:46.53)
and

Wakil David Matthews (09:48.031)
And the way we perceive things, all of us and all these creatures, is the way that over many, many, many thousands of years, we've evolved to perceive the things that keep us alive or that keep us regenerating or whatever. And so when things start getting skewed as badly as they are and as quickly as they are, if they change slowly, which they don't normally would, we can adjust and we do adjust and plants adjust and animals adjust. But it's changing so quickly now.

Annalouiza Armendariz (10:00.43)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (10:15.598)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (10:17.869)
that animals and plants and things are not adjusting and therefore they're dying and they're being lost. And they're hungry. Yeah, and they're looking for other sources of, yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (10:20.59)
That's right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (10:24.92)
Well, they're hungry too. That's the thing, right?

Annalouiza Armendariz (10:31.958)
Yeah. And another book alongside yours, sorry, Sam, I'm going to just jump in. Phenology by Teresa Crimmins. It's coming out of MIT Press. And I bought this book, but it's about timing when trees bloom, flowers bloom, birds migrate, animal bears, animals hibernate, right? If all those little, it's like ecological time. If somebody gets up too soon, then there's that window when somebody else can't eat.

Wakil David Matthews (10:39.233)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (10:55.139)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (11:01.11)
and then they're really hungry. it's a really good book too. Same thing, like I feel like, you know, we make assumptions about time. It's like, there's so many different time clocks, right? Like this is climate time.

Wakil David Matthews (11:01.112)
Alright.

Wakil David Matthews (11:12.427)
Yeah, Yeah, right. And we made up time in the first place, right?

Annalouiza Armendariz (11:19.406)
Yeah, Sam, what were you gonna say? I'm sorry to interrupt you.

Sam Lee Zemke (11:23.489)
I was just gonna reference the hungry bears in your dream trying to come into your house

Wakil David Matthews (11:26.829)
Mm. Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (11:27.008)
yeah. Yeah, they were trying to get into the house. So it's just I worry. I just I just worry a lot. And I didn't see any bear movies at the at the film festival. But a lot of climate movies, a lot of as an aside to I watched this documentary about in 1970, there was a law that was passed that universities, museums and archives had to give.

Native Americans, their family, their ancestors bones back, and very few have ever actually done it, in spite of being sued constantly. And so they followed the these two tribes who finally were able to get some of their ancestors from the, like literally the prison cells of Michigan State, like just in the basement boxes stacked up in some closet, you know, and.

Wakil David Matthews (12:01.293)
Mm.

Wakil David Matthews (12:20.982)
wow.

Annalouiza Armendariz (12:25.454)
So, you know, not climate related, but also time related, you know, people's ancestors belong in the earth.

Wakil David Matthews (12:30.067)
Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah, as we all do. Yeah, we had a conversation during it. I was doing the class on planning end of life planning and had a conversation with folks about disposition of the body. And we were talking about how, you know, over generations we've only really for the last couple hundred years, we've thought the best way to dispose of the body was to not dispose of it basically.

to fill it full of chemicals and put it in a concrete box in a metal casket and make sure it never goes away. And that, know, the natural, of course, the way that happened for thousands and thousands and thousands of years was we put our bodies in the ground. And so many of us are going back to that again. And it also, though, I think what's kind of underlying all this, which is really what's on my heart with this, is how much this affects us.

Annalouiza Armendariz (12:57.804)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Wakil David Matthews (13:25.653)
even though we don't speak it out loud or say it out loud, how much do we feel it? And I'm walking around, same as you and both of you, I'm sure, spend a lot of time outdoors. And when I'm walking around right now at the end of, the beginning of February, and I'm seeing buds coming out on trees, right? And I was looking back at some old poetry and I have poetry from several years ago, not that long ago, kind of with this poetry that says basically, wait a minute, are you sure?

Annalouiza Armendariz (13:25.667)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (13:43.15)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (13:43.681)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (13:55.863)
What do you know that I don't know? Or maybe you're confused because things are not what they would normally be in February in this part of the country, right? And it does worry me. And it's something that if I notice it, when I notice it, and think that's the only other thing we're talking about is noticing. When I do notice it, I can feel in my heart and in my soul that there's something amiss and that I'm also feeling that disconnect.

Annalouiza Armendariz (14:04.43)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (14:23.808)
Mm-hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (14:25.889)
Yeah, I don't remember if it was in specifically in the Earth grief book. I'm reading three books for this training and so they all bleed together because my instructor is a very, very good grief counselor, Bodhi, who you've interviewed a couple times on here. But one of other streams in that is talking about all of the methods that we have

Wakil David Matthews (14:34.99)
Ha ha.

Sam Lee Zemke (14:55.105)
for alleviating that feeling that something's off. All of the psychological modalities, the self-help modalities, all the things that go into, don't think about it, don't be affected by it, and go back to your daily thing. When it's appropriate to be feeling grief and sorrow in this

Wakil David Matthews (15:00.952)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (15:17.729)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (15:17.763)
Mm.

Sam Lee Zemke (15:23.905)
pain of the loss and the death of so much of our beautiful beloved planet. to like how critical, speaking back to the quote I read, like how critical it is to face those and be present with them and let them inform and impact us and guide us in the way that we show up in our world.

Annalouiza Armendariz (15:26.67)
Thank

Wakil David Matthews (15:31.297)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (15:45.741)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (15:45.931)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So Sam, I really appreciate that. I wonder if you could expound on that. Because I feel like we're very privileged that we have language to discuss grief and its iterations of grief. And it's the spectrum of grief that we can encounter. But I wonder if when we talk about facing grief and you know,

Sam Lee Zemke (16:03.307)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (16:15.49)
metabolizing grief. Like, what does it mean for people who listen to this? how, like it's scary. It's like, what, does that mean? And, know, the capitalist grind doesn't allow people to fall in their face for two weeks and just, you know, weep and gnash their teeth. So what can someone who is feeling that kind of like the, the nut balanced in their life and their feel that pain of sadness.

Wakil David Matthews (16:19.874)
Hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (16:29.323)
Right.

Wakil David Matthews (16:29.411)
Heh.

Annalouiza Armendariz (16:45.614)
What can we offer them?

Wakil David Matthews (16:48.259)
Yeah, good question.

Sam Lee Zemke (16:48.865)
I'm the wrongest person to ask about how a person who is crushed by the grind can find space and train that because that's not the world that I live in. I had to eject from that and find a different way to be in the world.

Wakil David Matthews (16:53.603)
Hahaha!

Annalouiza Armendariz (16:55.158)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (17:01.443)
Hahaha

Annalouiza Armendariz (17:08.205)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (17:11.233)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (17:12.738)
Right, and very few people were all in it, right?

Sam Lee Zemke (17:16.309)
Right, right. So I don't know. I'm just straight up, I don't know. That's part of what I'm learning though. Part of what has called me to this work is to, how do I process my own grief and be present with my own grief? And how can I use my willingness and

Wakil David Matthews (17:18.125)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (17:33.635)
Right.

Wakil David Matthews (17:41.848)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (17:44.86)
and compassion and empathy and big heart around that and around that, the importance of that process to show up for other people in that way. so, you know, read books, I don't know, listen to podcasts, listen to our podcast. We'd say lots of good things about how to do that. And we're getting better at offering practical solutions for developing those skills, I think.

Annalouiza Armendariz (17:55.022)
Right. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (17:55.885)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (17:58.957)
Yeah. Listen to the podcast. That's right.

Wakil David Matthews (17:59.843)
I

Ha

Annalouiza Armendariz (18:07.308)
That's right. it was, I asked you that because I thought maybe you had like a class that had just taught you some new verbiage for doing this, but I will stop and I want to be very explicit to a listener who feels that pain, that dis-ease in their body or in their mind or, know, sometimes I...

Sam Lee Zemke (18:14.593)
I'm

Annalouiza Armendariz (18:34.562)
I've had a loss that I can't shut it out of my brain. Like it's all that spinning in my head. I can barely breathe and I'm just like, what do I do? I'm desperate. Like I got to get back out there, right? And do something. But so when Sam speaks to face the pain, you know, it's, it's just not trying to numb it. It's trying, you know, like we're not going to go drinking it out and, or watch, you know,

Wakil David Matthews (18:43.48)
Right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (19:01.358)
24 hours of television or whatever. Those are all tools that make us not look inward. So what we can do is just sit, like physically sit and just breathe into whatever's happening. And maybe you do have to spin for a while, you know, at the edge of your bed or on the backstep of your house and just like, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow.

Wakil David Matthews (19:03.799)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (19:29.922)
Hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (19:29.994)
And then until, you know, it begins to kind of like soften and what I term as metabolizing, like it becomes kind of in myself. It's like, yes, OK, that was a death. This is how I'm feeling about it. And it is now my story. This is my it's how I'm connected with this being. And, you know, that's what it means to sit with death. Or, you know, if you have someone to talk to you and if they are

Wakil David Matthews (19:53.603)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (19:58.711)
Ready to mirror your pain and hold you through it. It's what it means. Not everybody can do it all the time, but part of what I think that we're talking about with climate change and about, you know, not kind of feeling disoriented with what's going on outside our front doors. It's it's time to reset and we just. Like, how we it for a while, like there is no bandaid here, folks, we have to like.

Wakil David Matthews (20:03.725)
Yeah, yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (20:19.415)
Yeah.

Right, Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (20:27.458)
like sob a bit.

Wakil David Matthews (20:29.207)
Yeah, yeah, that's really, really important. Yeah, thank you for that.

Sam Lee Zemke (20:29.899)
feel it. think

Sam Lee Zemke (20:34.207)
Yeah, thanks. And as you as you expanded yourself on that, I was reminded of my last big heartbreak grief period in my personal life. And, you know, sometimes the big feelings come when there's not anybody to talk to. And sometimes just holding it all inside is not doesn't work because it just runs you ragged. And so in in that time,

Wakil David Matthews (20:39.011)
Hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (20:51.182)
That's right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (20:55.296)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (21:02.817)
The practice of journaling was really, really helpful. Because I'd wake up in the middle of the night just wracked, wracked, and I couldn't get it out. So just write down whatever, whatever, it doesn't matter what it is that's running you through your paces. Just write it down, get it out of your head. You don't ever have to read it again. Sometimes it's really helpful to read it, go back and be like, whoa, how did I get through that? How the hell?

Wakil David Matthews (21:06.413)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (21:10.519)
Yeah, yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (21:17.261)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (21:19.822)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (21:28.979)
And you froze.

Sam Lee Zemke (21:32.395)
How the hell did I get through that? And you can read, am I still frozen?

Wakil David Matthews (21:36.482)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (21:40.136)
they're back.

Wakil David Matthews (21:40.183)
No, you're back. Kind of. Well, I'll just, I'll Yeah. Well, one of the, yeah, thank you. Yeah. One of the things I was thinking about is that what we're kind of speaking to here is that it's, it's really normal for us to want to push that away. And what we're really advocating for here is to be courageous enough to.

Sam Lee Zemke (21:44.609)
Kinda.

Annalouiza Armendariz (21:46.542)
Well, I'm also going to say, yeah, go ahead. And I've got some more ideas for folks who want some practical ideas.

Wakil David Matthews (22:08.531)
hold it and to embrace it and to recognize it as something that's as important to you as love and joy and happiness and hold it and let it come in. There's a a Sufi practice of bringing it in and offering it a cup of tea, know, allowing that part of you to come in and be with yourself and just holding it. know, finding a group is a good idea. Reading, you know, and writing, as Sam said, there's a lot of different great tools out there.

but all of them are about, first of all, begins with your willingness to actually hold onto it and look at it and breathe with it, get on the back porch, cry with it, whatever, but not to push it away because then you've got to, pushing it away doesn't work, first of all.

Annalouiza Armendariz (22:52.78)
Right. And it's you know what? It's it's it's it's an act of bravery. It is very it's very scary because we don't have the the cultural construct for folks to feel comfortable doing this collectively or even on their own. Right. So I will say it's a brave act. And I worked with a healer out of Mexico one time and I told her like sometimes this is like after my divorce and I just told her I like, I feel like crying like my but I can't get it out of my chest. Like

Wakil David Matthews (22:58.005)
It is.

Annalouiza Armendariz (23:22.946)
like my tears don't flow and but I can feel like something is bottled up there and she had me just open my mouth and say, she's like, no, keep going. And whenever you feel that you just have to open up that mouth to like let things just be rolling through there. Right. So breath work is probably really essential here, but being brave enough to face that, even though, you know, I can't stand when people say like, I was ugly crying like

Sam Lee Zemke (23:34.465)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (23:52.047)
Why are we judging crying? know, like, dear God, you know, I wept. I was so upset. I was so, you know, I after, you know, when I was in seminary and what I don't know if I was, I saw you that week while I killed with my sister after she died. Um, I had to skip my afternoon class and I walked all over Berkeley, weirdly, just, just randomly. I had nowhere to go. And I think of it as I bought like a newborn calf. Like I was just.

Wakil David Matthews (24:19.425)
You

Annalouiza Armendariz (24:19.98)
like trudging down the street with my book bag, just like bawling. you know, nobody, everybody was like, avert your eyes, avert your eyes. And I was like, I don't care. Like I don't need to be the only person who, who, who met me where I was. I walked into this restaurant finally and you know, snot, the whole thing. And I just like, I think I need water and just sit down and get something to eat. And I, I, this person was like, are you okay? I was like, no, my sister just died. I just, I just am crying.

Wakil David Matthews (24:27.779)
Yeah

Wakil David Matthews (24:39.372)
Yeah

Annalouiza Armendariz (24:48.87)
And then she's like, well, what do you need? And I'm like, I think I need a glass of champagne. She's like, let's do this. And so I had a glass of champagne and you know, like, and then, yeah. And then I headed back to school.

Wakil David Matthews (24:52.563)
Yeah

Wakil David Matthews (25:00.119)
I love that. love that. Yeah. I have seen that. I had that experience when my mom died and I was flying home at the time. And when I got to the airport, I was just sitting out in the arrivals weeping. most of the people were doing what you're talking about, just like, I'm not going to look at that. But one person walked up and asked how I was doing. And that's just such a gift. My God, what an incredible gift.

Sam Lee Zemke (25:01.257)
the

Annalouiza Armendariz (25:23.246)
Mm-hmm. I know. Yeah. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (25:26.925)
Just to be aware, you know, how any of us, if we see something like that, we have that opportunity to be that person, right? So not only open your own heart, but be willing to be there for other people who are going through it. So don't be afraid. Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (25:32.908)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Sam Lee Zemke (25:44.354)
or face your fears as you face your sorrows as best as you can. The other thing as we're talking about this and thinking about what we talked about last week regarding attention and phone and the constant bombardment. as we, I guess two things, one, as we awaken to the vastness of the grief in the world,

Wakil David Matthews (25:46.707)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (25:47.02)
That's right. That's right. Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (26:13.025)
It can be really overwhelming sometimes. And I personally don't want to be a purist about you gotta be in the muck all the time. 24-7, never say, okay, that's enough. I can be done with that for now. And I think there can be a differentiation made between pushing it away and putting it away for a little while. Like I'm reminded of part of the EMDR

Wakil David Matthews (26:15.907)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (26:23.38)
Right.

Wakil David Matthews (26:28.684)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (26:33.411)
Beautiful.

Annalouiza Armendariz (26:35.31)
Mmm. I like that. Yes.

Sam Lee Zemke (26:42.625)
therapy practice. You know, it's a whole thing and I'm not going to advocate people like just willy-nilly do EMDR, but there is a part of it that is constructing a container for yourself and for the things that you're dealing with that you can put things inside of that's a cozy place that you can then take them out of again and do that. There's also, you know, if you're having trouble sleeping, you know, start filing your thoughts into different filing cabinets mentally.

Annalouiza Armendariz (26:43.564)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (26:56.15)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (26:58.243)
Hmm. Hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (27:09.59)
It's like, yeah, it's like the crystal palaces that we could build.

Sam Lee Zemke (27:14.197)
Yeah, yeah, and just visualize a safe place to put that where you can access it when it's time and when you can come back to it and know that that's close or within you. And so it's not running away. It's not denying the importance. It's just like, okay, like I've I've cried myself out right now and I need and maybe I need to go watch some trashy reality TV or, you know, something else, hopefully not drinking yourself to death, but like

Wakil David Matthews (27:14.509)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (27:18.318)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (27:33.731)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (27:34.146)
Yeah. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (27:40.501)
You

Annalouiza Armendariz (27:42.24)
Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm not a purist either. You can sometimes we do things like this, you know, I have a tendency to have my my bad habits pop up when I'm in grief mode.

Sam Lee Zemke (27:43.713)
I'm going to take a break and come back to it. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (27:45.953)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you. Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (27:50.751)
Hehehehehe

Yeah, yeah, me too.

Wakil David Matthews (27:58.226)
Yeah, I mean, that's why we have late night television too. We can turn on Kober or something like that and just laugh about how insane the world is. But no, that's great. Thank you, Sam. That's a really important thing to note that you don't have to, don't hurt yourself. Be kind, be generous. mean, the first thing and the first verses of almost every surah in the Quran is compassion and mercy.

Annalouiza Armendariz (28:04.865)
you

Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (28:23.875)
bismillah, ir rahman ir raheem. And that's about yourself. Be compassionate, be merciful with yourself and with others. And that's so important. So thank you for reminding us of that, So we're kind of close to our time. It's always such an incredible opportunity to be with you all. yeah. So I appreciate you both very, very much. And I appreciate all of you out there in the world.

Annalouiza Armendariz (28:46.38)
I love it.

Sam Lee Zemke (28:46.625)
us.

Wakil David Matthews (28:53.825)
And thank you and hopefully you'll keep in touch and subscribe and like. Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (28:56.694)
Yeah. And email us with ideas for current events because we going to be with you in the moment.

Wakil David Matthews (29:04.641)
Yeah, that's our intention. And we're really grateful for this privilege to be able to do this. Much love. Adios.

Sam Lee Zemke (29:05.643)
Yes.

Annalouiza Armendariz (29:06.67)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (29:11.096)
Yeah. Adios.

Sam Lee Zemke (29:12.833)
See you next week. Adios.