Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:01.294)
Welcome everybody. I am the Reverend Wakil David Matthews. Today we are really intrigued to hear Rachel Waters story. Rachel made headlines in early 2025 when she was indicted on two counts of murder following her mother's hospice death in Columbia County, Georgia. Facing charges so severe they carried the possibility of the death penalty, Rachel's life was upended overnight. We're going to let her tell us more about this.

devastating and really amazing story.

Annalouiza (00:32.963)
It's a both-and story, yes. And I am the Reverend Mother Annalouiza Armendariz. Rachel's legal ordeal and personal experience transformed her into a passionate advocate for patients and families navigating end-of-life care. Rachel now works to spotlight systemic gaps in hospice practices and pushes for caregiver protections so that other families and their loved ones are not left vulnerable. Rachel grew up in Georgia and now lives in Sunnyside.

queens with their two husbands and their beloved kitties. Thank you so much for being here with us.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:05.473)
Yeah

Rachel Waters (01:07.961)
Thank you for having me. Absolutely. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:10.808)
Yeah, we're glad to have you. Yeah, we kind of set the ground, if you will, by just finding out when you first were aware of death as far as in your life. Yeah.

Rachel Waters (01:22.971)
Oh, in my life, oh boy. You know, from a very young age, I think I grew up in rural Georgia, but I was so fortunate in that I had my maternal grandparents who lived next door to me growing up, to me and my mom and my father at the time, they were still married. And there were a lot of neighbors around who were around my grandparents' age that were sort of like extended family. And the first one who passed,

Her daddy Bill and Adeline, I remember when Adeline passed when I was six years old, I saw open casket funeral. And that was when I was really struck by loss and the impact of that loss and how uncanny it was, the difference between her as a living person versus this almost unrecognizable figure in the casket. And...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:15.822)
Mmm.

Rachel Waters (02:18.395)
You know, after that, I sort of developed that existential fear of my grandparents dying, of my mom dying. Even before I was a teenager, I used to cry to my mom and say, why did you have me so late? Why don't I have siblings? You're going to die and I'm going to be all alone. You know, I would get so upset about it. And then, you know, I had a great deal of experience with death. My grandfather, who was like my dad, died when I was 17. My grandmother followed at 20.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:37.39)
Wow.

Rachel Waters (02:46.811)
When I was 20, my mom and I were her caregivers in the last three years of her life. She had in-stage diabetes. And it was one reason I went to college close to home too, so I could stay close to her and give her insulin injections and take care of her before my mom got off work in the evenings. And so I've been very close to it, had a lot of losses, both pets, loved ones, friends.

My half brother, David, committed suicide a few years ago, shortly before my mom's death. So it's been a lot of death. And I have had many years to come to terms with and process it. In fact, was all those losses that sort of led me to turn to Buddhism when I was 11, and this understanding of suffering as a normal and natural condition of life and, you know, loss and the acceptance of that loss.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:33.486)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:37.538)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:42.03)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (03:42.499)
which has sort of enabled me to be resilient through those things despite the fact that the grief is always horrible no matter how much you are exposed to it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:50.678)
Yeah, yeah, so true, so true.

Annalouiza (03:54.177)
Wow. So one thing you and my daughter have in common is that she constantly cries too about why'd you have me so late? I want you to live forever. I'm going to Thelma and Louise it with a day you die because I can't let stand in that without with like in a world without you. So I hear that a lot.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:03.128)
Hehe.

Rachel Waters (04:03.631)
Yeah.

Rachel Waters (04:07.899)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:08.078)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:13.026)
Yeah.

Rachel Waters (04:13.273)
Yeah. Yeah, it was the only child predicament especially. She's just like, you know.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:17.934)
Right.

Annalouiza (04:20.447)
Yeah, yeah, it is actually an interesting like existence, right? To be an only child. But you actually touch a little part of this thread about how death has impacted the story of where you are today. So continue with your your journey. Tell us more.

Rachel Waters (04:41.039)
Yeah, I think, you know, as part of coping with loss, and especially when my mom got sick in 2020, she had a really rapid plummet. She was, you know, sort of cognitively and physically normal in January of 2020, which was the last time I saw her before August 2020. So you have the lockdowns, you have the pandemic. I would have actually seen her in March.

but she had a really rapid decline from being cognitively and physically normal to her entire spinal column collapsing due to osteoporosis, probably the early stages of multiple myeloma then because the bone lesions appeared in the spine and weakened the bone, as well as the start of Alzheimer's, it's the prodromal stage that we call mild cognitive impairment. And I started recognizing signs of that in mom.

And very quickly, I realized two huge things about my life. I knew that I needed to immediately jump into action to try and delay the progression of all of the illnesses that she was facing. But I also knew that I needed to adjust my career in such that I had the emotional wherewithal to.

channel all of my energy into what I knew was going to be a mighty battle with my mom. So I was originally working in the nonprofit sector. I worked a lot with formerly homeless and incarcerated people, very emotionally taxing areas for work where you're feeling distressed all the time. And I realized that I needed a big career shift to focus on something that was more hopeful and hopeful for the futures of people like me and my mom. We share the Alzheimer's gene, which is APOE4.

as well as multiple myeloma, which is cancer. Not at the time, my mom hadn't been diagnosed yet, but it was sort of like any illness that would be terminal. And so I made a big career shift to life sciences and medical writing where I got to be sort of at the forefront of innovation that would save people's lives and extend it and sort of translating what those innovations were for investors, for clinicians and patients. And it really led me to a career that I found really restorative and hopeful.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:38.019)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (06:58.189)
and enabled me to channel even more of that energy while also, you know, research was my full-time job, medical research became my full-time job, enabling me to be a better and more robust advocate for my mom as she near the end of her life.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:05.646)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:09.228)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, beautiful.

Annalouiza (07:09.548)
Mm-hmm.

That is amazing to be like swept into this world where everything that gives you hope is actually transforming the lives of others and your mom. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:21.034)
Yeah, yeah, what a great deal. What a great thing. Well, we want to hear this story. So maybe you can carry, go, know, not only what happened because that's obviously the way you showed up here, but also, you know, how that's affected what you're doing now and talk more about what you are working on and what your goals and objectives are for now.

Rachel Waters (07:42.202)
Yeah.

Rachel Waters (07:45.657)
Yeah, yeah, I guess, you know, maybe we should start, you know, with the abridged version of what happened unless you want me to work backwards from what I'm doing now, I'm fine with either way. So the abridged version of what happened with my mom, as she neared the end, you know, I'll sort of give you a rundown of these illnesses and decline that

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:52.459)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:56.015)
Either way, yeah, we've got time.

Rachel Waters (08:13.765)
that really started piling up. So my mom had this relatively mild, I say relatively, because my mom had been an electronics and satellite engineer all her life. So if there is even the slightest drop, she's the person who did everyone's taxes in the family. You see it. And we talked on the phone every day. We texted every day. We saw each other four times a year. And so when I noticed a shift in her ability, her grasp of grammar, her vocabulary, she started reversing all

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:29.507)
Ha!

Rachel Waters (08:43.067)
pronouns, that was one of the earliest signs. She had a variant, logopenic primary progressive aphasia, which is an unusual way for Alzheimer's to present, but it basically is, they're still able to think of what they want to say in their mind, it's just the correct words escape them. And I recognize that being familiar with the disease process, because as soon as I found out we had the gene back in 2017, I did years of research.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:00.866)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:12.098)
Hahaha.

Rachel Waters (09:12.795)
looking into how it could manifest. And I was hypervigilant and I knew that's what was going on. However, my understanding of the disease was that it was very slow. And in fact, when I spoke to my mom's primary care doctor, she said, Rachel, you know, I know you're rushing to get care and all this stuff, but you're honestly years away from that. They normally linger in this phase five, six, eight years, you know, before you need to think about it. So you've got time. And I really held on to this.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:15.15)
Thanks

Rev Wakil David Matthews (09:38.914)
Hmm.

Rachel Waters (09:41.435)
this idea that I had time. And yet every couple of months we would have this huge stepwise decline in cognition. And it seemed to go hand in hand with her collapsing spine. She was starting to lose a ton of weight. You know, in that eight month period from January 2020 to August 2020, she had aged 15 years and eight months. She was almost unrecognizable when I got to her. And that was a lot of the physical toll.

of being in so much chronic pain with the osteoporosis. So the first thing, we jumped into treatment for osteoporosis. I tried to alert the family to Alzheimer's. There was a lot of denial there and I won't speculate on all the reasons for it, but I didn't exactly have care partners in the family. In fact, there was a lot of suspicion, this belief that maybe I was being hyperbolic or trying to push for my mom to be declared incompetent in some way when I started talking about things like

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:28.322)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (10:38.939)
power of attorney. And that became, you know, very much an uphill battle. But when it comes to caring for someone I love, I'm pretty, you know, relentless in pushing forward. And I was lucky that I had friends of my mom's who did vouch and advocate like, yeah, we think something is really happening. And we're going to talk to her while she's still cognitively able to grasp it. And I was lucky in that I was able to secure power of attorney. And my mom

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:49.506)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (10:50.253)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (11:08.355)
had always wanted me to have that. She just needed to know it wasn't like a conservatorship, right? Where I was going to suddenly seize her assets or control of her life, which I think was a lot of the fear my family had. But I was lucky that I did because very soon after, within about six months, she had a significant enough decline that it became clear we needed some outside help. And I had committed to keeping my mom in the home as long as possible.

Annalouiza (11:16.131)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (11:38.327)
We were in a weird situation where my mom's income, retirement income, nevermind her assets, you know, in terms of homes, but her retirement income was too high to qualify for Medicaid. So any kind of in-home care, it was on me to hire. And I was lucky that my husband was able to support me while I could channel my income into hiring help. And we, you know, sort of continued to escalate that help as her needs grew and boy, did they grow rapidly.

And it really came to a head in the summer of 2022 when she finally received the diagnosis of multiple myeloma. We went with a monoclonal antibody therapy. We knew by that time her Alzheimer's was full blown. Chemotherapy would not have been something she could withstand or understand, putting her through the illness and side effects. But unfortunately, when you can only pursue one type of therapy, that tends to fail quickly.

Annalouiza (12:26.274)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (12:33.229)
And so in December of 2022, my mom's oncologist said, you know, I think at this point we should look at hospice. She's now entering sort of the end stages of multiple myeloma and it's accelerating, you know, it's fed into the Alzheimer's because these are all inflammatory processes, know, poor nutrition, pain, inflammation, it all accelerates the process. And so in the span of three years,

We essentially went from mild cognitive impairment to stage six A or seven or six B of Alzheimer's disease, which is right at the very end along with end stage cancer. And at that point, even round the clock care in the home was no longer viable because the home itself was no longer a safe place for her. I cared for her in the home, me and my husband's, actually took turns with paid caregivers caring for her until we realized, my God, she can't.

be in a home that has upholstery that can't be sanitized appropriately, right, or accidents or things that you never imagined that they would do or, you know, use can become a weapon that can hurt them. And it's just impossible to stay on top of it. And so at that point, we made the very difficult decision to move my mom into a memory care facility. And that was in March of 2023. So she'd already been on home hospice.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:31.47)
Hmph.

Rachel Waters (13:59.765)
And it's worth noting that when people go into home hospice in this country, this is a nationwide practice. Family caregivers are prescribed something called a comfort care kit. And that comfort care kit includes things like sublingual morphine, lorazepam or another type of benzodiazepine, anxiety medication, suppositories for constipation.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:10.232)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (14:23.065)
And you're trained on when and how to use these things in the event that you don't have a hospice care professional immediately available to administer them. And you think nothing of it because, you know, we had hospice nurse friends too. And it's like, yeah, everybody's given these, everybody's trusted and expected to administer them. And at that time, I thought there was maybe a specific law protecting the use or the administration or monitoring of it. And I was really surprised to find that

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:31.47)
Great.

Annalouiza (14:31.479)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (14:38.498)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (14:51.745)
no one really monitored or seemed to measure those medications. It was very, and so I was really scared to ever even touch them. Even when mom was having a hard time with pain or anxiety, I felt sort of unmoored in that I'm very cautious from a medical perspective because with dementia, especially, you never know if you're gonna make something worse. If they're gonna have a fall.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:59.278)
haha

Annalouiza (15:00.163)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:15.832)
Right.

Annalouiza (15:16.227)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (15:18.753)
or if it's gonna lead to more confusion. And so I was really relieved with her going into memory care because you have some trained medical staff that are sometimes there. It's still considered a residence. It's not a nursing home, right? It's assisted living technically is the legal designation. So they're still on home hospice. They don't change the type of hospice that they have, but you theoretically have partners in administration and care.

Annalouiza (15:28.045)
Wait.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:41.71)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:46.755)
Yeah.

Rachel Waters (15:48.983)
And when she entered the facility, that was a load off in one sense, but in another, it introduces new layers of bureaucracy and uncertainty too. And one of those was, we had a lot of difficulty with mom in terms of determining what was a behavioral issue and what was a pain issue. And that sort of created conflict

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:13.997)
Hmm.

Rachel Waters (16:17.611)
both between me, home hospice and the memory care facility because the response was often anti-psychotic medications being suggested, sometimes very strongly suggested, and that did not seem appropriate necessarily because a lot of what she was feeling seemed to be rooted in pain. And we have an issue in this country, it's relatively common that people with Alzheimer's tend to get less pain management than people who don't have it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:36.45)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:44.578)
Hmm, interesting.

Rachel Waters (16:47.783)
And it's partly because pain doesn't necessarily manifest in the same ways. It can be an outraged behavior rather than a clear articulation of I'm in pain, I need this thing. And at that point, it becomes the responsibility of the power attorney and family caregiver to advocate vigorously on behalf of their loved one to ensure that those needs are being met.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:54.381)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (16:55.107)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (16:58.883)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:59.522)
Sure, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:10.84)
Sure.

Annalouiza (17:11.245)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (17:13.099)
I am not a shrinking violet when it comes to advocacy. My mom advocated so intensely for me throughout my life. That was how I was raised. It's like come hell or high water, I will fight for you. And a lot of my mom's issues were rooted in pain, like her attempts to, they were alleged attempts to commit suicide.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:23.886)
Mm.

Annalouiza (17:28.067)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:30.978)
Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Waters (17:42.139)
I still have some doubt about them, but you know, she would be found with the call cord around her neck and she often screamed that she wanted to kill herself and she wanted to die. But if you're in excruciating agony from bone pain, like, yeah, that might be how you feel. And so there was a lot of, you know, I think from the start, that became clear that pain management would be

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:57.08)
Sure.

Annalouiza (17:57.41)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (18:11.011)
an issue simply because of the way the systems are structured, right? It's not even leveraging like personal fault. It's just, you you are also dealing with corporate systems that are legally cautious and understandably so that, you know, it adds new layers of complication to home care, but you're still on home hospice and you still bear the responsibility of being the one to say yes or no.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:15.202)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:25.699)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:34.817)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (18:39.245)
and to manage their pain and or behaviors.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:40.984)
Wow.

Annalouiza (18:44.099)
That's insane too, because it's like your home hospice scene. And then you're in this institution, right? And there's like the constant, like there's, they're, they're working with, you know, multiple people who are probably having similar things and you're just like, mom needs this.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (18:52.632)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:00.558)
Right. Yeah, Yeah, it's really difficult.

Rachel Waters (19:01.113)
Yes, exactly. And that, you know, I think that was where a lot of the issues I think arose in communication is it unfortunately when you have a parent that is more behaviorally difficult, you yourself, you know, seem like the enforcer when you come in because you're like, no, this is not the best medication. This is the approach that maybe we should try.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:23.789)
Rachel Waters (19:31.035)
And so I cannot say that I was a very popular person and I came down a lot. Toward the end of my mom's life, I spent essentially four months straight in Georgia. And if I came back to New York, it was like two weeks in New York, two weeks there, know, spending half of every month to keep close tabs on things, but also because my mom wouldn't remember me, you know, if I...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:34.22)
Hahaha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:44.206)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:51.182)
Wow.

Rachel Waters (19:58.381)
She remembered who I was, but she would think that two weeks was years and that I had been gone for years. And I hated leaving her with that feeling. That was torture. And unfortunately, I had last seen her in late June when I got a call on July 9th from Hospice as they were coming to do their.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:03.576)
Yeah.

Rachel Waters (20:25.977)
weekly visit, actually I believe the memory care facility called hospice. My mom, I was told on the phone and I was here in New York that my mom had been found doubled over, non-responsive and had been declared actively dying. And she had hours, two days to live. And I needed to get down immediately if I wanted to be by her side. I...

I cannot tell you the stress of getting down there. We ended up having basically the storm of the century here in New York shut down all the airports. We had two flights in a row canceled. And so my husband David and I booked a train ticket to DC and then ran from the train station to a taxi to catch a flight with 35 minutes to spare to Augusta, Georgia. And when we arrived,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:51.406)
Thank

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:58.32)
jeez.

Annalouiza (20:58.888)
my god.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:02.734)
Ugh.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:13.767)
geez. my God.

Rachel Waters (21:19.041)
My mom was indeed totally non-responsive except for she appeared comatose, know, eyes partially open, not speaking, which she had been speaking last time I saw her, fingers and toes were already turning black because her oxygen saturation, which was found was around 70 odd percent. That's pretty incompatible with life. But they had put her on some supplemental oxygen and brought that level up. But my mom's advanced directive stated

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:39.672)
Yeah.

Rachel Waters (21:48.205)
only comfort care, no life sustaining measures like fluids or food. And at that point, it's basically you have to accept what the natural dying process looks like. And that's a really hard thing that I was admittedly, even with my education, not prepared for. I was not prepared for the fact that someone can still be alive and their eyes be desiccated and dried out, for instance, or that the inside of their mouth could

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:53.23)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:00.281)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:12.27)
Mm, mm, wow.

Rachel Waters (22:16.906)
and bleed from the lack of fluids. And that was, it was traumatizing to see my mom like that. And at that point, it became very clear to us that, yeah, they were right. Death was imminent. We had a hospice nurse friend who also came in and examined her. We were always trying to get ideas and estimations of how long she would linger in that state because it was horrifying to me, this idea that

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:17.88)
Wow.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:24.781)
Yeah.

Rachel Waters (22:45.625)
you know, she was suffering because she had no fluids. And it quickly became clear she had no morphine on call, which I knew was the standard of palliative care. And this became especially pronounced because every time she was turned, the only responsiveness she had was to make a really agonized face. Like I described it as like the Greek theater tragedy face. It was

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:57.774)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (22:58.017)
Mm-hmm

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:12.984)
Mm.

Rachel Waters (23:14.203)
it is seared into my brain. She had two very large bedsores on her back and behind. And I imagine those were an immense cause of pain, as well as the fact that her bones were quite literally deteriorating with cancer lesions. It's one of the most painful cancers. And at this point, I told my husband, you know,

Annalouiza (23:16.547)
Mm.

Annalouiza (23:25.698)
Yes.

yep, yep.

Rachel Waters (23:39.461)
God, we need the comfort care kit on us in case we don't end up getting a prescription for morphine to the facility because, it's prescribed for end of life. So again, you don't think anything of it. But the first thing I wanted to prioritize, I didn't want the responsibility of that in a facility. I wanted someone with more expertise was me demanding of hospice, look, we need morphine on call. This is a cancer patient who is dying.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:55.246)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:07.107)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (24:09.327)
And that request was never filled. In fact, it was directly refused. I was exceedingly confused by this and pretty angry.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:19.306)
Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:23.671)
I've never been in a hospice situation where there's no morphine. Ever. Ever.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:27.028)
ever. No. No.

Rachel Waters (24:28.249)
I've never heard of one. Yeah. The argument was that she appeared comfortable, but she was only seen for a couple of minutes at a time. And so I'd started recording her too because she would also experience periodic agonal breathing. And that's one of the indications for morphine. And my mom continued to progress. So my husband and set up shop in her room in that we had a mattress on the floor.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (24:57.486)
Hmm.

Rachel Waters (24:58.011)
And we were not gonna leave her side because I made a promise to my mom when she got sick that she was not going to die without me. I know that's not always a guarantee, but again, the come hell or high water, I will make sure I keep that promise. And so we were there to monitor every single change. And then on the morning of July 20th, 2023, I was awakened by the sound

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:04.408)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:07.938)
Haha.

Annalouiza (25:09.581)
You'll try your best.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:10.605)
Yeah.

Rachel Waters (25:27.733)
of teeth clashing together. Now at this point, there's been no comfort care medication. I haven't administered anything because I'm still waiting in hopes that a prescription is going to come through, right? But that sound is actually the sound of in-stage agonal breathing where the respiratory muscles no longer work. It's just the jaw. And so they have this gridded face and they're smashing.

Annalouiza (25:40.515)
Okay.

Rachel Waters (25:56.847)
their teeth together in an effort to intake air because there's not adequate oxygenation. that's, know, I'm frantically Googling this stuff to what, what agonal breathing looks like. And I realized then, my God, this is exactly what calls for a comfort care kit. need to call hospice on the emergency line. It's like six in the morning. There are no certified nursing staff that I was aware of at the time on the floor. They

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:06.19)
Cheers.

Rachel Waters (26:24.569)
sort of work regular hours. It was just some medical assistance. They confirmed that they still didn't have morphine there. But I let them know, well, we have a comfort kit from home and it has morphine. And the idea was to be on the up and up with everything. I'm a pretty rule abiding person. And so I, because my husband was like, you don't have to tell everybody everything. like, yes, you do. You should be transparent, right?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:51.128)
Yeah.

Rachel Waters (26:54.043)
And so I call hospice for instruction. And I asked, is this legal to administer even though she's in a memory care facility? And their allegation is one thing, mine is another. But it was my understanding that, yes, this was the exact situation that called for that sublingual dose.

my husband who was there and was a witness to it, you know, was aligned. And so we administered the comfort care medication as it was prescribed. And my mom, it didn't stop the agonal breathing. actually didn't change a single thing. And she died anyway. After she died, we called hospice came and declared her they dressed her.

Everything sort of was going as expected. We went ahead and called the funeral home. We had been in touch with the funeral home since we knew she was imminently dying, just to see kind of what dates were available for family who was out of town. We knew it wouldn't be very long without water, especially. People don't tend to survive more than about three days with fluids. And so I had no idea that anything was untoward until

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:08.632)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (28:20.865)
We were driving home from the memory care after the family had come and seen her and we were waiting on the funeral home to pick her up and the funeral home called and said there's been a problem. We can't pick up your mom's body. It's been taken to Atlanta for an investigation.

And I knew immediately that there was a murder investigation. I did not know who had alleged it or why it had been sparked. I assumed it was a misunderstanding. But instantly your brain goes from grieving daughter to fighting for your life. is such a sudden shift.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:58.072)
Yeah.

Rachel Waters (29:01.051)
And immediately I am Googling attorneys because you know, that's the first thing you have to do in the area who deal with things like murder. And he tells me what possible charges could be in Georgia. And I'm sitting here going, but I didn't break a law. don't understand. Like this is normal hospice care. What the hell is going on? And he said, it doesn't matter right now. What matters

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:04.322)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:17.982)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (29:20.321)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (29:26.773)
is that you need to be prepared for law enforcement to show up at your mom's house and you know, prepared to face whatever might come your way. But yeah, we'll hope that they understand the situation at some point and that it'll be made clear. And sure enough, after we got back to my mom's home, law enforcement showed up, asking for my phone. I asked them to get a search warrant. I knew my rights.

and they went ahead and got a warrant. They had spoken to my attorney, so they also got a warrant for the morphine from the e-kit as well. And I was like, okay, great, they're gonna see that it was a prescription. And at that point, I assumed that everything would be very obvious and clear in part because there was a record that I was called down because she was actively dying. There was a record that she's actively dying. I'm thinking, you're gonna see the state of the body. You're going to...

you know, as terrified as I was, I was reassured by the knowledge that there wasn't anything shady that happened and that this was an expected death. you know, things went really quiet after that and eerily quiet in retrospect, you know, my family who I had had issues with throughout mom's illness, but they had

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:30.615)
Right.

Annalouiza (30:31.127)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:33.517)
Yeah.

Rachel Waters (30:47.717)
been a huge part of my life growing up and you sort of assume that after the death you can kind of make amends. They disappeared pretty much overnight. And I didn't know at the time that they knew anything of the investigation, but you know, other odd things started happening like all the sympathy cards that came to my mom's home. None of them mentioned me. It was as though I never existed. These were people who knew me.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:56.076)
Mm. Mm. Wow.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:11.042)
Hmm.

Rachel Waters (31:16.175)
but these were family friends and distant cousins. And they would say to my mom's siblings how sorry they were for the loss, but I was never named or addressed. And that was really strange to me too. And I would later find out that my family had been contacted by investigators. And I still don't know this day if my family believes that I did anything or didn't, because I've had no contact, right? And...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:23.406)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:40.685)
Well.

Rachel Waters (31:44.571)
And I was just in this sort of quiet limbo for almost a year and a half, or over a year and a half rather, actually, where I was just holding out hope that the medical examiner would see everything that was wrong with my mom and that they would have all the medical records. I had in fact retrieved the medical records myself because I had been trying to find out what happened to my mom too. I didn't know why.

you know, how long she had been non-responsive or who found her. wanted to see sort of the records leading up to that. And I had gone through an attorney the year prior to get her medical records. And it was extensively documented by hospice that she was actively dying and that I had been called down. But something odd stood out to me in the hospice notes. And it was the nurse stated that I had requested euthanasia.

And this was an inaccurate statement. I had never requested euthanasia. She was already dying. And not only was she already dying, but that's illegal. You're not going to ask that of a medical professional. But what I did request very vigorously was morphine. And I am not going to speculate why that was put in the medical record. But it became clear to me that that was he.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:42.828)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:50.887)
Yeah

Rachel Waters (33:08.791)
into this, you know, into why I was under suspicion for homicide as was stated on the search warrant. But even so, again, knowing how I had acted legally leading up to my mom's death, I still held out hope that eventually my mom's cause of death would come through.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:16.184)
Hmm.

Rachel Waters (33:35.099)
and that I would no longer be considered a suspect and I would be able to move forward with, you know, taking care of my mom's estate. Because if you're a suspect, you can't really move forward with life insurance. You can't move forward with, you know, being the executor on the estate or any of that stuff. But unfortunately, that is not what happened. And just a few days before my birthday this year,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:43.64)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:49.655)
Right.

Rachel Waters (33:59.899)
I had posted a memorial about my mom and about the last birthday gift she'd ever given me, which was teaching me how to paint. My mom was an oil painter and that was one of the last things I asked her for because it one of the few gifts she could still give with dementia was to share her knowledge with me. And someone on Instagram under my post copy and pasted an indictment and said, shame on you for murdering your mother. This is why your family disowned you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:28.453)
my God.

Rachel Waters (34:29.307)
the full indictment number and two counts of murder, felony murder and malice murder. And in the state of Georgia, that is the harshest possible charge you can get. Malice murder is murder carried out with an abandoned and malignant heart. So felony murder is someone dies during the commission of a felony. It was so surreal to me that it

Part of my brain wanted to believe I was being scammed. Like there was some, but I also.

Annalouiza (35:02.979)
At this point you hadn't even heard this either, right? This was out of nowhere.

Rachel Waters (35:06.339)
No, out of nowhere. And I sent it to the attorney who had consulted me initially, you know, when investigators first made contact or just before investigators first made contact. And I said, is this real? We can't find anything online. And he said, yes, it's real. There's been a warrant for your arrest for several weeks now. You need to immediately make arrangements to turn yourself in. And now is when you need to fight for your life.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:33.965)
Rachel Waters (35:36.171)
And I can't describe the terror of what ensued. I lost 10 pounds in about four days. You don't eat. You can't eat. You can't sleep. Everything you thought you knew is just deteriorating. Like, I had a cat that had just been diagnosed with cancer and all I could think is, my god, if I

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:41.709)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:45.932)
Jeez. Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (36:02.871)
If I turn myself in and I don't make bond, he might die. It's just like your brain goes everywhere. You know, what happens to my family? Like nevermind your job. because you're, definitely going to lose that once you get charged with murder. but I was really lucky that my attorney knew Brian Steele, who is an incredible and very nationwide renowned defense attorney.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:09.07)
Mmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:20.75)
Hmm.

Rachel Waters (36:30.989)
And he very eagerly took my case. And that was just a godsend. I had him in partnership with another amazing attorney, Pete Theodosian, who was local to Augusta. And they were so helpful in sort of holding my hand through the fear of like, you have to be driven to Georgia to be turned in because you're a fugitive now. don't want law enforcement to catch you and you end up being held in Rikers or something here.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:55.883)
jeez.

Rachel Waters (36:58.939)
And so we made arrangements for me to turn myself in ahead of my bond hearing, which would be my first contact with the court. And I was driven down, both my husbands drove me down. And we were really afraid. We didn't know if, you know, it was our understanding, the DA, who interestingly enough was not part of my indictment. She came on after, she was an interim DA.

The original DA on the case, he had gone, had been called into like Army Reserve position up in DC. And so my case for the grand jury was handled by the investigator and not a DA. So the DA, she was very new to my case and didn't know too much about it, you know, leading up to like right when I was indicted. And so we didn't have a lot of insight into whether she was going to

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:41.102)
Hmm.

Rachel Waters (37:56.639)
know, fight bond, but we knew that was typically the case as they fight bond. And in this county in Georgia, it's very conservative and the odds of making bond after a murder charge are essentially nil. We couldn't find any. And so walking into that jail was, it's the black box of terror. You don't know if you're ever going to get out, right? Because there's a possibility that if

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:13.901)
Thanks

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:17.944)
Yeah.

Rachel Waters (38:26.511)
things don't pan out and you're not able to get sufficient evidence. When someone's up against the state, the state overwhelmingly triumphs, whether that's through a plea deal or it's because someone has a court appointed attorney and caseloads are high, the odds are not good. And so even though I had an amazing attorney, there is still this possibility of not making bond, of either waiting years for a trial or not.

And so it takes, it's quite a leap of faith, you know, to go in there and you, you hope that the people who show up for you are able to advocate enough that you're not a flight risk, right? That you are willing to face this. And I certainly was more than willing to face what I had been charged with. And I was deeply fortunate in that I only spent 12 hours in jail. I still had to attend my bond hearing in my little orange jumpsuit, you know.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:57.015)
Yeah.

Rachel Waters (39:25.274)
But my whole community in Augusta and even people flew in and drove in from out of town to show up for me and speak for me and to speak for the judge. Like this woman is not going to run. She's deeply entwined with the community and they did. And I was very fortunate that the judge granted me $200,000 bond. It's astronomical, but you know.

we were lucky enough that between like savings and retirement, we could cover the legal fees and the bond. But it clears you out. That's kind of it's what cost is your life. And the answer is everything, right. But we were then in a waiting game, but I was lucky in that I was free and able to get all the evidence I had.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:57.24)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (39:57.826)
Yep.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:01.048)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (40:01.731)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:05.215)
Mm. Wow.

Rachel Waters (40:18.101)
know, demonstrating that I did not, you know, commit any sort of crime, you know, to my attorney, as well as, you know, to the DA and the medical examiner. And after we presented the evidence we had, which we have reason to believe there was a great deal of context and perhaps even medical records that were not revealed,

The medical examiner himself changed my mom's cause of death from acute morphine overdose, homicide to undetermined. On my mom's autopsy report, she had pneumonia in both lungs. She had brainstem atrophy. She had kidney and liver necrosis. She had 70 % blockage of her arteries.

She was 76 pounds. And she had a huge array of drugs in her system. Some were prescription and some had even been administered from her hospitalization two days prior to her collapse. And in fact, you know, we kept noticing in news articles that alleged that she had been injected with morphine and we didn't know where that had come from. And it was probably because they found an IV line on her arm from her hospitalization. But.

you know, lot of confusion sort of proliferated around that and how the determination was made. And post-mortem morphine redistribution is a very tricky thing, right? And it is dependent on whether or not someone's having food or fluids. You need a lot of medical context of what the person's condition is before death to determine like how much morphine is going to concentrate in the body versus how much is excreted. And

Annalouiza (42:02.615)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (42:12.411)
It is our understanding and belief that with this additional context, the medical examiner was able to assess, maybe it's not a morphine overdose here. She's a hospice patient, expect. And even Stedman's initial findings that they expect to see morphine levels of varying degrees in people on hospice. And at that point, the state immediately dismissed all charges.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:20.642)
Thank God. Cheers.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:37.336)
Wow.

Rachel Waters (42:38.873)
It's not technically an exoneration because you don't go through a trial and are found guilty, but it's almost as though you go back to you're not even the suspect anymore. It's like it never happened. And it did exactly. And that's the thing. And it did. And then I realized, my God, if this happened to me, half of all Americans rely on hospice for their loved ones at some point.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:52.782)
except for it did. Oh my God.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:05.923)
Yeah.

Rachel Waters (43:06.997)
And I had spent years researching for a law that would have protected me and found.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:13.966)
Wow.

Rachel Waters (43:15.085)
And I realized then that I had fallen into this no man's land gray zone in which family caregivers and hospice, they rely on the trust system, right? Hospice providers trust families to not abuse these controlled substances and family members trust that no one is going to accuse them of murder or implicate them because there was not a...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:25.07)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:37.047)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (43:41.563)
a direct accusation, there was just a lot of implication and allegations from hospice that I was trying to accelerate my mom's death, that I wanted to get rid of my mom, which was really horrifying to learn in the discovery. And to realize that there are instances in which advocacy can be mistaken for, mistaken or misunderstood and I...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:51.266)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:57.314)
Yeah, jeez.

Rachel Waters (44:09.837)
I'm very hesitant to assign malice anywhere because it's just not, I don't like to speculate on other people's motives. It's not a responsible thing to do. But it was very clear that I was fundamentally misunderstood and that my intentions were fundamentally misunderstood and perhaps even my mom's condition was misunderstood because there was no mention, you know,

Annalouiza (44:13.303)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (44:25.069)
Yeah.

Rachel Waters (44:36.933)
during any of the documents that my mom had been actively dying or even that she had cancer.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (44:43.116)
Wow. Geez. Yeah, yeah. Wow. my God. What a story.

Annalouiza (44:44.803)
mean, huge information right there. It's like.

Rachel Waters (44:49.091)
Right. so that is why I'm here now talking to you guys, because if it could happen to me, it could happen to anyone. And what's more is that it's almost certain to happen to someone who does not have my privilege, either financially or in terms of legal understanding or in terms of meticulous documentation, for them to be able to save their own lives in the way that I did.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (44:54.242)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (45:03.884)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (45:12.578)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Waters (45:16.863)
My hope is that A, I can raise awareness of, this is a thing that can happen. But at the same time, I don't want people to be afraid to administer comfort care to their loved ones because you don't want people dying in you know, in agony and the way that I was watching my mom die in agony because she didn't have adequate, you know, palliative medication, you know, at least in my belief. And I realized then there needs to be a law that really regulates

Rev Wakil David Matthews (45:37.368)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (45:44.193)
the dispensing of these medications and how much is used and compared against, you know, hospice providers, checking that off against what the family says they're administering and what's deemed appropriate. So a very clear record can be kept of what's being administered when and how and under what circumstances, even though it's imperfect, it would at least enable some protection that basically goes three ways, right? You know, if I had had that in place, it would have been clear there was no abuse of morphine.

Annalouiza (46:11.843)
Right.

Rachel Waters (46:12.187)
there was no overdose. It was a barely used vial of our bottle of working.

Annalouiza (46:16.813)
That's what I was thinking. They should have seen that it was probably almost full is what it sounds like. Right. Yeah.

Rachel Waters (46:22.361)
Yes. Yes. And at least, you know, when I handed over to investigators, it was certainly almost full. And so that was also part of why I thought, surely this is going to be clear. You know, it's just like sublingual morphine, which is one of the most least potent ways to administer morphine because it's not super well absorbed under the tongue.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:24.462)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:38.646)
Yeah, right.

Rachel Waters (46:51.131)
So it's sort the low and slow approach. It's way easier to overdose somebody on a drip or injection. But I realized that we need better protections so people feel like everything that they do is on the up and up and documented and redundantly documented over and over so they feel confident in administering these medications. Even with training, they know that everyone is on the same page.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:56.248)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (47:06.882)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (47:07.715)
right.

Annalouiza (47:14.243)
right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (47:17.514)
Right, wow.

Annalouiza (47:18.146)
Yeah.

Yeah, I am too, but I do want to take this moment and say, I really honor this journey that you've been through and I want you to take a moment and breathe as well because it is has been a very traumatic.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (47:20.736)
well, I'm just kind of stunned.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (47:30.819)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (47:38.296)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (47:38.677)
story lesson to try, know, it's so I honor that. I, if I were in the space with you, I'd be like,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (47:46.763)
Hahaha

Annalouiza (47:47.811)
holding your hand for a second because I'm like, yeah, you have been through hell. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (47:51.288)
Wow.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (47:56.223)
and to come through it with this intention to really help others is just beautiful and so appreciated.

Annalouiza (48:00.621)
Yes.

Well, it also just makes me think, you know, as much as I bemoan, these phones that everybody's like, I was documenting everything like Rachel, I am a lot like you. I am like such a little rule follower and like tell everybody everything. And my kids are like, shh, like mom, here's world's worst liar. Yes, I am too. But, you know, in this situation, I really think that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (48:12.801)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (48:17.912)
you

Rachel Waters (48:20.037)
That's, I'm the world's worst liar.

Annalouiza (48:32.193)
If there's any caveat that I might say, you know, videotape everything you do, time stamp it, show.

Rachel Waters (48:38.413)
Yes. And know the laws around party identification. Like in Georgia, voice recording, only one party has to know, but if it's video recording, both parties have to be aware. It's good to inform that, people of that. I had recorded one of my conversations with a hospice nurse and that was informed just in case. It's really important to know those laws as well. That way if it's ever, if it never needs to be admitted and

Rev Wakil David Matthews (48:49.601)
All right.

Rachel Waters (49:08.155)
court, it's admissible.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (49:09.664)
Yeah, yeah, wow. Wow, people who are taking care of their loved ones shouldn't have to be attorneys and, you know, but that's so good that you're thinking about this and creating a space for people to, or for this to be dealt with in the future. So we've gone well over time, but that's fine because it's been such a great conversation. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I don't think...

Annalouiza (49:10.925)
That's right.

Annalouiza (49:17.855)
Yeah

Rachel Waters (49:27.513)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (49:33.123)
Well, it's an important conversation for us too, to share with the world that, you know, we need to be informed.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (49:38.348)
Most of these things don't really even matter. But I guess we could, what do you think, Annalisa? Maybe just.

Annalouiza (49:44.737)
Well, I would ask her how she's taking care of herself, how she's keeping herself resourced, because that's important.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (49:46.646)
Yeah, that's what I thinking.

Rachel Waters (49:50.253)
Yeah, I think of this part of the story as the good part. I am able to have hope. In my wildest dreams, I get Marsha's law passed, right? And that would be enormously healing to be able to give my mom a legacy of potentially saving other people's lives. Innocent family members, as well as loved ones who need and deserve comfort care and people

Rev Wakil David Matthews (50:01.794)
Hahaha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (50:18.21)
Yeah.

Rachel Waters (50:19.449)
you know, feeling that they can give that without fear of reprisal. But how I stay resourced, I have an amazing community of people. you know, regularly, I'm very social, so regularly have people over for gatherings. I'm also a huge gem rat. I'm very much into powerlifting and really focusing on, you know, when you're a caregiver to someone with Alzheimer's and cancer, like your health just goes by the wayside, like it is nowhere near your top three priorities.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (50:35.615)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (50:46.466)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (50:49.467)
And so, you know, since I lost my job and everything else, it's like, well, the thing I have to focus on now is advocacy, which is what I'm dedicating myself full time to now, as well as just my own health and getting myself as resilient as I can possibly be for my future now. You know, I'm in middle age. It's like, oh, you've got to really take care of things now. And so that's really helpful. And I just, I really, lean into gratitude a lot.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (51:08.27)
Mm hmm. Yeah, right.

Annalouiza (51:10.785)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (51:18.808)
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Waters (51:20.063)
Even through all this horror, I have never been bitter. I'm not really wired that way. I am immensely grateful for everyone in my life who showed up for me and who was there for me and who, you know, was willing to put their reputation on the line and you know, showing up in that courtroom or, you know, speaking out for me, that meant the world to me and I feel like I'm going to be paying that.

for the rest of my life. so I think gratitude at the end of the day is what's really kept me going.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (51:47.32)
Hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (51:52.047)
Yeah, that's great. That's so perfect, so important. Well, is there anything you wish we had asked you that we haven't gotten to?

Annalouiza (51:53.827)
you

Rachel Waters (52:02.121)
my gosh. mean, you know, you guys had great questions. think that asking about who my mom was, it's because it's always great to be able to reflect on her in that way because I didn't get, I didn't really get to grieve her. I still, think maybe the grief is properly going to set in once I'm able to make progress in her name. You know, you feel like

Rev Wakil David Matthews (52:03.157)
Heh.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (52:16.077)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (52:26.635)
Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Waters (52:28.633)
You can close that chapter on that particular part of the grief, but you know, recalling who she was, it helps me because that's one of the first things you sort of get robbed of with Alzheimer's. And it was also why I sent the book quote that I did. So.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (52:32.13)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (52:40.266)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (52:43.694)
Yeah, that's great. And you did mention earlier that she was the one who ran the family, know, and yeah, the engineer and my God, must have been an incredible person and is an incredible person. Is an incredible person. And she's still here. Yeah, she's still in there. Right. So that's wow. Well, gratitude is a very good way to to

Annalouiza (52:56.451)
She is an incredible person. That's right. And she's also, you know, part of Rachel. Yes. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (53:10.712)
follow this and to end this, think. Do you want to read your quote or do you want us to do that?

Rachel Waters (53:16.673)
Yeah, I would actually love to read it because it's one of the very last things my mom when she was still able to read actually read to me aloud. My mom and I always had this thing. She was she was originally an English teacher before she was ever an engineer and we're love to read addicted to reading. We often you know, beautiful passages that would strike us in a book we would just read aloud to each other and

Rev Wakil David Matthews (53:37.613)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (53:45.4)
create.

Rachel Waters (53:47.675)
While she was still able to read, actually have video of her reading this passage to me from The Moon is Down, and it would always choke her up, and it chokes me up to this day. And it's John Steinbeck's The Moon is Down. If you have any context, the Nazis have invaded the small town in France that are resisting. And the mayor of the town is basically being threatened and intimidated with lighting the signal fire, saying, well, we will kill you and destroy everything if you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (54:03.694)
Hmm.

Rachel Waters (54:15.361)
don't stop these villagers from, you know, rebelling against us, essentially. And he says to the Nazis, I have no choice of living or dying, you see, sir, but I do have a choice of how I do it. If I tell them not to fight, they will be sorry, but they will fight. If I tell them to fight, they will be glad. And I, who am not a very brave man, will have made them a little braver.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (54:42.67)
Wow. Yeah.

Rachel Waters (54:44.527)
Also one of my favorite lines. So, and I try and live up to that. And I, and my mom was the type of person who did too.

Annalouiza (54:46.755)
Thank you.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (54:50.456)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (54:51.663)
Rachel, you have no idea how you have spoken into my life today.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (54:56.576)
Yeah, yeah, you really have really lifted us up. Well, yeah, can't tell you how much we appreciate you and the work you're doing and we support you in any way. know, yeah, keep in touch. We, we, you know, if you've got something you want to say, we'll definitely put your stuff in the podcast notes, but anything else that comes up, we can, we have a newsletter that goes out, you know, if you've got something special that you want people to know about, we'll do that once a month. So we'll be in touch.

Annalouiza (54:58.903)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza (55:07.363)
Keep in touch.

Rachel Waters (55:25.433)
Well, thank you so much for the opportunity. All right, have a wonderful day. Bye bye.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (55:26.36)
Thank you again.

Annalouiza (55:26.435)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (55:29.004)
Yeah, take care. Yeah, take care. Bye bye.

Annalouiza (55:31.757)
Thank you, Rachel.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (55:36.238)
I gotta just take some breaths. Wow.

Annalouiza (55:42.239)
I know, it's not just that, it's like...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (55:46.936)
Wow.

Annalouiza (55:47.447)
What an incredible...

I just, I'm kind of speechless. Like I just think about Rachel, I think about her mom. I think about how we need to do better and yet it's a lot of work to do better. Sometimes we don't know what we're up against, you know, in our communities, our families that are, be, you know, have issues with how we care give or our states. Like it's just, it's, it's a lot.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (55:52.311)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (56:10.956)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. my God. It's so hard. It is. Wow, what a brave, courageous person and what an incredibly horrible story to have to go through. And, you know, hopefully people hearing this will know and advocate for this not happening to anybody else ever. Yeah, yeah. So.

Annalouiza (56:21.923)
you

Annalouiza (56:30.051)
Well, this law, right. Yeah. And also holding the space that people are going to do right. And this isn't happening all the time, but we just have to be very conscientious of how we go into this world, right? Into the care of our loved ones. And if there's Alzheimer's and families plan very well, it's important.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (56:39.33)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (56:47.362)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (56:54.617)
That helps. Yeah, it makes a huge difference. Well, much love. I'm going to turn this off. That was amazing.