Annalouiza (00:01.304)
Hello, hello, and thank you for coming back to listen to our podcast today. Today is really lovely because I'm super excited to introduce Ray Chell. Most folks call him Chell. He is a licensed tattoo artist. He primarily makes research based informative zines that focus on topics such as gender affirmation and death. One of these self published projects is his zine.

Ray Chel (00:15.785)
Okay.

Annalouiza (00:29.336)
The Little Undertaker's Embalming Guide. This is how I got to know Joe, by the way, at a zine festival. So in the zine, we are guided by a fictional mortician named Alfred Alexander III through the basic steps in the embalming process. Alfred also informs the reader about alternative options to embalming, including aquamation and natural organic reduction, otherwise known as human composting.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:31.926)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (00:56.63)
Yeah, it's so great.

Annalouiza (00:57.324)
Chelle, thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to talk to you.

Ray Chel (01:00.497)
Yes, I'm super excited to be here. I really appreciate you inviting me onto the podcast.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:07.146)
Yeah, and I'm looking forward to sending out information about the zine and getting caught up on the zine. Thanks for doing that. That's so fun. I'm the Reverend Joaquin David Matthews. He still tells us that he came to a stark and disheartening realization. I hear this one. That the Western society's current standing with death is overwhelming avoidant grief, which is so true and so the reason we're here really.

Ray Chel (01:15.009)
Absolutely.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:36.286)
And it's dreadfully misunderstood, which of course is the same realization we had here and that has led to what we're doing here, right? Shell is always looking to gather information to develop opinions and theories about where change can be made as well as to engage in death positive conversations like this one. So we're all definitely in the right place right now, right? So welcome very much. Great to have you.

Ray Chel (01:56.406)
Mm-hmm.

Ray Chel (02:03.509)
Yes, literally.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:05.525)
We like to go ahead.

Annalouiza (02:05.87)
I want to just jump in here and do something different because when I met Chell, we were talking about this particular zine. I was tabling for my daughter and we started talking about the embalmers piece. But I think I began with your tattoos and then I and then you showed me your tattoo of a coffin. And that's when I was like. Wait a minute, this is a death.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:09.032)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (02:27.604)
Yeah, that's little tattoo.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:27.652)
Hahaha

Annalouiza (02:33.366)
like positive person, let's like, let's like actually connect deeper. So, you know, this is where life is gets me excited when I get to intersect with people who are just delightful and in my in my realm. So thank you.

Ray Chel (02:38.217)
Yeah

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:43.551)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (02:48.597)
Yeah, yeah.

Ray Chel (02:49.834)
Yeah, absolutely. And what a better way to very openly express death positivity than tattoos. I also have the word mortal across my knuckles. So I'm very aware of my mortality and I've decided to embrace that in an art form I have dedicated of my livelihood too. So yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:00.377)
Ha ha ha ha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:10.601)
That's so cool. That's so great. And what a great way to meet people too. I don't have tattoos. I guess I'll to get a button or something. On our forehead? Well, definitely we should put that on our wish list.

Annalouiza (03:11.022)
Mmm. So cool.

Annalouiza (03:16.238)
Or we could get matching tattoos, Wachile. We could go to Oklahoma and get some matching tattoos.

Ray Chel (03:17.366)
Yes, yeah, make a trip. I would love to show y'all my studio.

Annalouiza (03:29.9)
or bucket list.

Ray Chel (03:31.187)
Yeah, know, Oklahoma City has lots to offer, trust me.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (03:34.757)
Okay, all right, cool, good to know. Yeah, well, do you remember in your life when you first understood what death was?

Ray Chel (03:44.693)
Yes, actually the first I guess like the most impactful early memory I have of death involves my childhood cat Bryce I can remember waking up in the morning and running into the living room and seeing her laying on her side and I instantly knew something was off even as a very young child she was meowing in a way that seemed like she was in pain and

so I went upstairs and I grabbed my parents and they came down and they both basically confirmed what, know, my little child brain didn't, you know, fully understand, but I knew something was off and they're like, we think that Bryce is dying. And I can remember running to my room and one of my parents comforted me while another one stayed in the room with the cat. And, you know, she, of course eventually passed, but what made that so impactful was not only that like.

you know, that little thing in my brain going something's different here that I don't remember being pre-established. And then after she passed, my parents went outside. We have like a pet cemetery that we still to this day be adding to. And I can remember as my parents were digging her, her grave, I just sat on the deck and I just held her and I can remember that experience of

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:47.85)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (04:57.961)
Hmm.

haha

Ray Chel (05:12.372)
you know, deep sadness and, and, you know, her body was getting colder. She was limp, all the things that like a live cat, you know, isn't, you know, and, and so I got to have that experience of, of, know, spending time with the cat's body before laying her to rest. And I remember that was just so impactful and it felt like I really got to say,

goodbye to this animal. So that's really my first impactful memory with death. feel like pet loss is a pretty common one for young children to experience death for the first time.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:42.815)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:52.447)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (05:56.308)
And I love that your parents had such a hands-on, if you will, that it wasn't like, we're going to hide this from you or we're going to ignore it, which is we've heard as well. People want to breathe.

Annalouiza (05:56.31)
Yeah, that's true.

Annalouiza (06:03.927)
Right.

Ray Chel (06:04.094)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (06:07.34)
Yeah, there's a lot of kids who don't get to actually engage with their fur babies bodies and yeah.

Ray Chel (06:07.561)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:13.641)
Yeah, yeah, there goldfish or whatever, you know, yeah.

Ray Chel (06:14.036)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (06:16.204)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (06:17.78)
Yeah, exactly. Like you do hear stories where, know, it's kind of the, there's always like a joke at this point where it's like, oh, Fido went to the farm and it's like, you know, it's like that, that avoidance of wanting to have the conversation with young children because there's this like thought process that they're not ready or something like that. And I'm like, well, I mean, I personally disagree. I think that my parents being so open and upfront with death,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:25.694)
Right.

Annalouiza (06:26.07)
Hahaha

Ray Chel (06:46.512)
as a concept and as something that we're going to experience in life actually really set me up to even kind of be where I'm at now as an adult. Yeah, so I definitely think that that was helpful for me.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:54.718)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (06:58.84)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (06:59.093)
Sure. Yeah, that's a good message we want to say over and over again here on this. Yeah, yeah. Make sure people know children need to be aware. This is as much a part of life as birth. And birthdays and spring and fall. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (07:03.201)
We do.

Ray Chel (07:03.249)
Yeah, absolutely.

Ray Chel (07:11.152)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (07:11.182)
That's right. Death days. Yep.

Ray Chel (07:14.676)
and children are so capable of processing it. I think that they are capable of much more than we give them credit for.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:20.073)
Yeah, absolutely.

Annalouiza (07:25.678)
Well, OK, I'm going to just diverge for just a moment. But you know, it's interesting. I homeschooled my kids. And so, you know, there was a lot of me teaching them about having agency. just because you're younger and less experienced doesn't make you less wise or capable of creating a solid decision based on your life experiences. And so, you know, what I just heard you say is like kids have the capacity. Do you realize like

Ray Chel (07:28.882)
Mm-hmm.

Ray Chel (07:32.881)
Hmm?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (07:48.351)
So true.

Annalouiza (07:55.671)
All humans have capacity and some adults don't have the capacity. Right. So so it's like an ageist belief that if you're like a single digit age, you have you do not have the potential like capacity for awareness of life and death. But truly, we all come into this world understanding it. We're just cloistered away from it, from some kind of.

Ray Chel (07:57.864)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:00.24)
Hahaha.

Ray Chel (08:01.361)
Yes, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:17.107)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (08:24.258)
bizarre notion that, you know, children and I think I've read in books like just fiction about how, the children had to keep and be kept away because grandmother said it would just like taint their lives. And you're like, what the actual? Anyhow, so I digress, but so I appreciate that was your formative moment in understanding death.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:25.973)
You

Ray Chel (08:34.947)
Mm.

Yeah, actually.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (08:42.35)
No, no, it's all good.

Annalouiza (08:51.042)
How has death impacted the story of your life and brought you to where you are today?

Ray Chel (08:56.659)
Well, I feel like it all kind of like, you know, we go back to childhood a little bit and the I don't think my mom was really aware of how death positive she was in the way that she raised us. My mom is a person who has experienced quite a bit of loss in her life. You know, she's lost her great grandparents, parents and,

Annalouiza (09:11.982)
you

Ray Chel (09:27.027)
She's had to learn to process and grapple with grief from a very young age. And so growing up, there was a lot of grave sites to go see. So she would take us at least twice a year. We would make our pilgrimage out to the cemeteries.

And as kids, it was actually something I still look forward to our cemetery days even now. But as kids, we look forward to it because it was, you we went out there, we had the flowers, we put the flowers out, the flowers are pretty. And it was just an opportunity to ask questions. remember, you know, after we would lay the flowers on our family members' graves,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:07.562)
Mm-hmm.

Ray Chel (10:17.202)
We would spend quite a bit of time just wandering around the cemetery, know, looking at the flowers, commenting on how the flowers are pretty, commenting on, you know, people's last names and names and the dates on the stones, which would then give us the opportunity to ask questions. My mom would answer them to the best of her ability. And this is just something, you know, we did throughout my entire life. And I think that that made it to where

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:33.557)
Mm-hmm.

Ray Chel (10:46.83)
cemeteries were very much like places, you know, to actually go visit, you know, I, know, people who will lay their loved ones to rest and that's like, that's it. They don't, they don't really go back. And that was just like a regular thing we would do and still do.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (10:56.732)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:00.204)
That's great. That's so good. I love that. And I love that it's a kind of regular part of the world you grew up in. And so many people, like you said, I think this is also true because of the way we diversify. We're born in one place, my kids are scattered all over the country, Although they're coming closer, that's good. But I I'm in the same part of the world, but my parents moved out here from the East Coast. And so it's really

Annalouiza (11:00.407)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (11:07.426)
Mm-hmm.

Ray Chel (11:17.926)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (11:29.223)
And it's very common that people move far away from their loved ones. It's not like it was in the old days where we were all in one village and we buried our people there in the village and we went and spent time with them and it was part of the village. And so we've lost that. think that's an important and impactful loss that we've had in our culture that we don't have that connection to our people and to where the people are and to go back and spend time with them.

Annalouiza (11:34.594)
We're in the same community.

Ray Chel (11:41.232)
Mm-hmm.

Ray Chel (11:54.919)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (11:59.792)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (11:59.843)
What you'll it just also occurred to me, like not only are we kind of transporting ourselves all over the planet as families, as clans and, you know, the very affordable and highly used cremation process also diminishes the ability for us to like go somewhere to sit right. Like unless it's like, you know, auntie's closet where.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:07.582)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (12:18.512)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:23.453)
Right?

Ray Chel (12:23.909)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (12:27.736)
grandma Joan and the dog and whatever are like housed in their boxes, right? So there is something about like the lack of intentionality around how to go and spend time with our ancestors.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:27.75)
haha

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:31.795)
in their boxes.

Ray Chel (12:33.776)
Bye.

Ray Chel (12:45.071)
Yeah, having an actual place to visit and everything. you know, I feel like, you know, one of our local cemeteries right down the street from us, very recently, I think at least refurbished our columbarium and everything. So I wonder if because cremation is definitely on, you know, the incline and everything because of its affordability, if maybe some cemeteries are, you know, of course seeing an opportunity, but also being like, some people might still want a place to visit, you know,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (12:45.129)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Annalouiza (13:11.267)
Right.

Yes.

Ray Chel (13:14.769)
that's more affordable than, you know, the embalming, the casket, the vault, the plot, the stone. And, know, it's the, you know, the cremation and then, you know, a similar vault to that of a mausoleum, but significantly smaller. And I very recently went over to that cemetery, was taking a look at that and everything, and it seemed relatively new because none of the dates on there were older than like, I think 2018. So I know that the concept of a columbarium isn't new, but, you know, at least in my little cemetery.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:16.105)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:20.159)
Hehehe.

Annalouiza (13:20.268)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:38.61)
Mm, wow.

Ray Chel (13:44.068)
here. It's a new establishment.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (13:44.648)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm one of those that loves to wander around cemeteries. But, you know, I was just thinking, I have no idea if I even wanted to where my grandparents are buried or where their remains were left. know where my parents were, but that was ashes that we put out in one spot. And I do visit that now once in a while. But, you know, that's interesting to think. I wonder how many people that's true for that they wouldn't even know where to go if they wanted to.

Ray Chel (13:51.586)
Yes.

Annalouiza (14:02.371)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:14.197)
to visit their family, their loved ones. I, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Those GIS coordinates. Yeah, I love that. Actually, had this wonderful person come on and talk about green burial where they just basically put you in this forest with a tree and you don't have a headstone.

Annalouiza (14:16.002)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (14:16.441)
Yeah, at findagrave.com. See if you can find them on there.

Annalouiza (14:20.268)
Ha!

gotta be a GIS like somewhere.

Ray Chel (14:27.084)
Yeah, yeah, that's how I...

Ray Chel (14:37.038)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:38.663)
And she said they had to create a GIS mapping system so that people would be able to find their people, know, find their tree. So that's great. That's great. Yes.

Ray Chel (14:45.517)
Yeah

Annalouiza (14:47.118)
that I also I also think as you were speaking shell I was thinking about first of all everyone's my ancestor right like we're all kin at some level and it was just occurred it was like you know I used to spend a lot more time in cemeteries because I do find them to be the great picnic area great reading area I did a lot of portraits in cemeteries and I was thinking maybe I should start going to just like wander around and talk to whomever is hanging out there right like like

Ray Chel (14:48.355)
That is really cool.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (14:58.794)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (15:06.894)
Yeah

Annalouiza (15:16.334)
our ancestors. But it occurred to me like my my favorite dia and my grandparents are in Isleta, Texas. And every once in a while when I'm able to go down, I wander around the cemetery and I literally I can tell you where they're at, but I find them. I'm like, hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:33.973)
See ya!

Ray Chel (15:34.381)
Yeah

That you just have this like internal navigation system that's like you're going to find your family. Yeah.

Annalouiza (15:42.639)
I. Yeah, and you know, I mean, so maybe like just a random cemetery, could find somebody that you may or may not know this. I mean, with 23 and me, everybody is finding themselves connected, so you never know. That's right. So anyhow, I digress again.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:44.851)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (15:55.86)
Yeah, right. Exactly. To people we never thought possible, Yeah. Yeah, no, no. That's what this should be. I don't think digress is the right word. having a wonderful conversation. I'm really appreciating it. never, you know, we have like, you know, till we have this set of questions that we use kind of as a container, but then I love these kinds of conversations where we just enjoy off script, you know.

Ray Chel (15:55.968)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Ray Chel (16:04.439)
you

Annalouiza (16:08.639)
Yes.

Annalouiza (16:18.892)
Yeah, I do. I do love the flowiness of our conversation. It doesn't always happen with some folks, so this is nice. Anyhow, OK.

Ray Chel (16:19.948)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:27.125)
Yeah, But we do always, I think this next question is more about, we really want to have an opportunity to hear more about what you're doing, you your work and that zine. And so this is where we, this is where you get to tell us your story about, know, what are you doing now? And what is the work you're up to?

Ray Chel (16:29.098)
yeah, yeah.

Ray Chel (16:44.399)
Absolutely, I am a man of many commitments and everything. So I could talk about tattooing, I could talk about the zine, I could talk about the book, but I guess we'll start with the zine since that is how we met and how we connected. So I had mentioned that I a special interest, if you will, in like death history, death care.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (16:48.853)
Yeah

Ray Chel (17:13.996)
you know, what we're doing now, why we do it. So I've definitely, you know, kind of gone down the rabbit hole of like, you know, reading like, why is it that we embalm our dead?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (17:25.503)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (17:25.528)
but that's a whole tangent in and of itself. But the zine in and of itself, I'm working on this fictional book project and in the meantime of kind of trying to get that fleshed out a little bit more and writing a book takes a really long time and this is my first time doing like a large scale fiction project like this. research is a little bit easier.

at least for me, to be able to sit down and read books and scour the internet for sources and figure out how something works and then just have a fictional narrator take you through the process. So Alfred Alexander III is our fictional mortician who's taking you through the process of embalming. And it's pretty basic steps and everything. We talk about setting features and arterial embalming,

cavity embalming, some of the tools involved in that process. And there's some illustrations and everything that depict those tools. And then of course, because I think it's important that people know what alternatives are out there to embalming, those are also listed in the zine. Embalming is one of, as of late, it's become second to cremation because of the affordability, which we've discussed a little bit.

But throughout our lifetime, most of us are familiar with the, you know, embalmed corpse and casket combo. That's a pretty, you know, common shared image in at least the US. You know, we're one of the few countries that practice it quite to the degree that we do. And, you know, you thank the Civil War for that. So that's a...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:15.445)
All

Ray Chel (19:19.435)
I think it's important that people kind of know what goes on behind the curtain. So that was one of my intentions for producing the zine is being like, you know, some people are going to pick this up and they're going to read it they're going to be like, wow, that was really interesting. That's, you know, I feel so informed, but I had at least like one person who read it who did like it, but did tell me that like there were moments while reading it that made them kind of squeamish. And I was like, yeah, it's a pretty invasive process.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:41.535)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (19:41.642)
Ha ha!

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:46.335)
Ha ha ha.

Ray Chel (19:48.255)
at the end of the day. I mean, there's, you know, other, you know, practice ways that people can go about things and make it even more invasive just really depends on the, the, the mortician that you have the embalmer and everything. I myself am not one. And so what I did to try and make sure that this zine was, you know, accurate is I, you know, I decided all my sources, but you know, not being behind the curtain myself.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (19:57.706)
Mm-hmm.

Ray Chel (20:16.394)
You know, I can only read so much. I can only do so much, you know, in the classroom type research before, you know, you kind of are unaware if you're really telling people the correct information. So thanks to tattooing and all the people that I get in my chair, I eventually was able to get connected with an embalmer. And she was more than willing to read over the zines rough draft and

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:37.181)
Mm-hmm.

Ray Chel (20:45.644)
basically fact check it and you know, thankfully a lot of my research was correct. She gave me a few things to add to the zine to be able to, you know, depict the visuals and everything that things that happened a little bit better. But beyond that, you know, she basically just gave me a thumbs up said, yep, that's right. And I was like, cool, because I was much more interested in being able to credit an actual embalmer.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (20:55.765)
Mm-mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:07.355)
That's it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:14.569)
Mm-hmm.

Ray Chel (21:14.699)
for editing and fact checking, then putting a disclaimer in the zine by being like, hey, this is all research based. I myself am not someone who has embalmed a body. So take this with a grain of salt. Having somebody actually make the difference right is way better than that. So yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:20.471)
All right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:27.541)
Mm-hmm.

Way better, yeah. That's so great. What a brilliant, brilliant idea.

Annalouiza (21:35.055)
But it is until, you know, I do appreciate that you went through that process to make sure that it was not a disclaimer. But when you and I first talked, you really I think you mentioned this and you said, I just want people to understand what they're choosing. Right. And so the big piece for me that I appreciate about your zine is that. Unless other unless your.

Ray Chel (21:37.227)
you

Rev Wakil David Matthews (21:54.543)
Mm Yeah.

Ray Chel (21:54.7)
Yes.

Annalouiza (22:04.878)
curious about this in your own like, you know, for your own edification, people will choose things that they have no idea what it is. They will just assume like this is the normative, you know, death process that I should say yes to. And it's the best, you know, way or whatever. And your zine, even though it may feel like it makes people squeamish, it's a very

Ray Chel (22:09.91)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (22:14.048)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (22:34.646)
real like process that people should know about. And if they decide like, I don't want my loved one to go through this, they'll know to say no to that. Right. So there's options. I mean, I think that's what I am just delighted when I read that because and appreciated about your conscientious, you know, death positive. Let's create change around this because people don't know and they just.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:41.717)
Right? Yeah, yeah. And they'll know there's options, yeah.

Ray Chel (22:43.404)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (22:50.719)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (23:01.814)
And in an acute situation with grief and finances and maybe children and grandparents, it's like it's hard to make a choice. And you assume that the people, the professionals you go to will actually help you make the best choice. And in fact, it's not going to be the best choice for everybody.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:04.735)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ray Chel (23:16.486)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:20.531)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And often those professionals are motivated by making more money. you know, so you don't necessarily, I mean, that was my experience with my mother that was really painful, you know, to go in in the midst of this really horrible grief, to be going into a used car salesman situation, you know, which is not always the case. But, you know, there's certainly our funeral directors with much more compassion and caring. but in this case, that's what it was. And that's just

Ray Chel (23:20.841)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ray Chel (23:32.074)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (23:38.377)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (23:45.45)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (23:49.532)
a travesty really and to sort of have any kind of information like you're talking about. love that. I love I just recently read another book. It was about cadavers and it was so funny. was it was like half the time I was cracking up and half the time I was grimacing, you know. But yeah, so I really appreciate that you're doing that work. Thank you so much for for putting that out. The more we can do this, better, you know, as far as getting people this awareness. So yeah.

Annalouiza (23:50.926)
Mm-hmm.

Ray Chel (24:04.734)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:07.523)
Yep.

Ray Chel (24:14.14)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Annalouiza (24:17.614)
So what are some of the challenges that you've encountered with your zine?

Ray Chel (24:23.147)
With the zine, it honestly has been a pretty smooth process to do that project and everything. was just like the reading and the research and everything took a lot of time. But the zine in and of itself actually was pretty smooth and everything. I do the zine fest and everything, like where we met to

to share that zine as well as other projects and everything I do. also locally do like consignment and everything. So some stores will put it in the store and everything. so I've just kind of share it wherever I can. And

Annalouiza (25:10.082)
And what's the reception when people read it? Do you get feedback?

Ray Chel (25:14.238)
I do, I do. A lot of people are, I get people who pick it up both because it is something they're already interested in. And then I get people that pick it up out of like, know, more of a curiosity, which I think is even mentioned in the zine where it's like, you know, basically congratulations, you've made the first step to be a more depth of positive, a depth aware person by just simply picking this up and reading it and, know, becoming more aware of not only

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:26.441)
Hahaha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (25:32.586)
hehe

Ray Chel (25:43.047)
you know, your own mortality, but the mortality of others. And, you know, so I do get people that are kind of on both ends that pick it up and learn a little bit about that process and everything. So I feel like the audience is fairly broad based on my experience so far. Yeah, I've some people be like, I have never heard of most of this stuff. I don't know anything about this. you know, my loved one was

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:07.295)
Wow.

Ray Chel (26:11.845)
embalmed and I had no idea this is what you know what that process looked like you know so and then like you said like not everybody's going to sit down and want to you know read books and and and websites and and talk with an embalmer and everything that's because it's not everybody's like you know hyper fixation so I'm able to just condense it down into like you know a few pages make it extremely easy to digest so you know it's like kind of like the research has been

Annalouiza (26:17.282)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:17.481)
Right, right.

Annalouiza (26:24.835)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:29.855)
haha

Annalouiza (26:37.067)
Yes.

Ray Chel (26:40.775)
done for you. And then I think utilizing a fictional character also makes it a little bit more approachable.

Annalouiza (26:41.827)
Right.

Yeah.

Also, the zine as a format is really palatable for people. They're not picking up a tome. They're not getting a list of sources. It's like a 10 minute perusal that will be like, wait a minute. I just had a whole construct shift here because I did not know this information.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:53.482)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (26:53.915)
Yeah. Yes, yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (26:58.869)
Yeah, in our world where, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:08.808)
Yeah, yeah.

Ray Chel (27:09.199)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. yeah, and zines, you know, what I think is so cool about, you know, zines as a, you know, an art form and everything, which I guess if you aren't familiar with them, they're just like small booklets that can be easily distributed to pass along information. Poems are basically like the, you know, limitless what you can do with them. But, you know,

Annalouiza (27:31.222)
Yes.

Ray Chel (27:33.778)
So with it being just this like small, very easy to distribute pamphlet almost, it does make it to where you can spread it around quite a bit faster and quite a bit easier. And there's a huge trading culture in the zine scene, if you will. So it's like, yeah, some people might give me a few bucks for the scene, but I also might like something you have, a drawing or...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (27:42.485)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Ray Chel (27:58.96)
a zine that you have yourself and I would just much rather trade for that and then I get to learn something new while you're learning something new, which is, you know, something that I think is so cool about the entire thing.

Annalouiza (28:02.594)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:09.159)
Yeah, I love that.

Annalouiza (28:09.248)
Yeah, I really, I really like this. And, you know, before I met you, I also thought about doing a little zine because my daughter is involved and she makes zines and she actually wrote one about autism and has distributed in little libraries because as for free because she's like, I want people to understand how it feels to live in this autistic realm. Right. Like in seeing out. But I wonder if there's a way to like, I mean, we want to educate people.

Ray Chel (28:16.7)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (28:20.788)
cool.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:22.709)
Mm.

Ray Chel (28:23.367)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (28:30.888)
Mm-mm.

Annalouiza (28:37.922)
We just want to have people understand what they're choosing. Right. So I can I can absolutely imagine like, you just sending them out into the world and having, you know, young people. I mean, I feel like the demographic for zines are mostly young, but not always. Right. But they will be informed as they get to the age where they're taking care of elder family members and.

Ray Chel (28:38.439)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (28:41.685)
Right

Ray Chel (28:42.429)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (28:55.794)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:04.117)
All right.

Ray Chel (29:04.614)
Yeah. Yeah. And what's interesting is, you bring up like younger people. I actually have a coworker who came up to me and was like, hey, I just wanted to tell you this. I bumped into this like group of teenagers that had your zine like out in the wild. And I was like, that's so cool. That's so cool. And, know, apparently, you know, my coworker pointed out, you know, like, hey, my coworker made that. I know the person who made that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:21.802)
Haha.

Ray Chel (29:31.668)
And apparently this group of teenagers was really excited about it, was really excited about the information. But what kind of drew them in was the illustrations of the fictional character, that they're like, I like this drawing. What does it say? I like what this says, too. And it was like, what a neat way to introduce the concept of embalming to a younger demographic and everything and make something that's a very real practice.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:40.085)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:44.235)
huh.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (29:52.725)
It's so great.

Annalouiza (29:53.592)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ray Chel (30:01.209)
approachable for them. So I thought that was really, really cool.

Annalouiza (30:02.198)
Yes. I think that is so phenomenally fantastic. Like, I love it. I just love everything about this.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:02.207)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:08.693)
Yeah, Yeah. And it sparks some thoughts in me because I don't, we said, I have been talking about kind of, how do we kind of go to the next step in this podcast because we've been doing this for a couple of years almost. Yeah. Getting closer to two years and it's kind of, you know, it's not that it's getting old, but it's the same, you know, we have mostly been talking to people in the, in the work that do the work of end of life work, which is great. And it's been wonderful. We've learned so much and had such a wonderful time.

Ray Chel (30:19.803)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (30:20.91)
Two years.

Ray Chel (30:22.447)
Yeah!

Rev Wakil David Matthews (30:36.169)
But the next place might be to start reaching out to more, just the people on the street, you know, and the young people, especially. And I would love to have a way to like go to a high school or go to a community center or a zine fest. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe have a zine. Yeah. Just, just ways to reach people and more like you're talking about, just to have this sense of, can share this information with people and find out, you know, what that, how they feel about it and get them on the podcast to talk about.

Ray Chel (30:41.883)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (30:47.02)
A zine fest.

Ray Chel (30:48.59)
Yes!

Annalouiza (30:56.354)
Yeah

Annalouiza (31:01.955)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:03.775)
What do you think when you think about this and how has this affected you? And I think that it really, as I'm hearing this, really kind of goes, those little lights are going off, know, like, hey, hey, we.

Annalouiza (31:12.928)
Yeah, it's going on for me, too. But I just death is not an old person topic, right? It is for everybody. It is for people with children who have, you know, terminal illnesses. It's for teenagers who might encounter friends who commit suicide. There's like there are so many places in the world where the conversation around death and dying is 100 percent like important. Right. And so this I really do encourage you to keep like

Ray Chel (31:13.273)
Yeah,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:19.721)
Right, yeah.

Ray Chel (31:20.314)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:38.249)
Yeah, absolutely.

Ray Chel (31:39.015)
Absolutely.

Annalouiza (31:42.722)
moving this out in the world because everybody needs it. Everybody needs to learn. So they can make an informed decision too.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:47.785)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And to think, yeah, and to be supporting each other, because there's so many people that are going through different things like this.

Ray Chel (31:50.342)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (31:58.192)
for sure.

Annalouiza (31:59.171)
God.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (31:59.286)
We're having so much fun. Is there anything when you start thinking about your own death or maybe the people around you, is there anything that frightens you about that or makes you feel like, I mean, because you spent so much time in that world, what makes you tense up or maybe sets up something in your body that's like, ooh, do you ever grimace yourself, I guess, you we're talking about that.

Ray Chel (32:01.306)
Yeah

Ray Chel (32:25.496)
Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting, you know, question actually, because, you know, I've done a lot of work in my young life to make peace with the physical, the spiritual, the all the unknown aspects of death. You know, I grew up extremely religious. And part of growing up religious was kind of having the answers as far as like, what happens after. And when I got a little bit older, I started to deconstruct from that a little bit.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (32:39.135)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (32:54.83)
really explored spirituality for a while. I spent a little bit of time in a Buddhist monastery. I went through kind of a Wicca phase where I was actively practicing like a different like Wiccan rituals and things like that and was connecting with that. then at the end of that part of my life, I kind of just was like, I can't really settle on one ideology. I just kind of made peace with like the fact that there's validity to

Annalouiza (33:17.953)
you

Ray Chel (33:23.479)
all of this and that I just, you know, and also having being such a devout, I was Christian, I was so devout, making the same connection with a higher power that I had then just was a lot harder to recreate. So I just kind of had to grieve the fact that that was not something I was going to be able to do again. And then, you know, also try and figure out what now what do I think now? And as far as like afterlife and everything goes, you know, I

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:42.237)
Mmm.

Ray Chel (33:53.071)
pretty much just like, you know, like I have my opinions, I have my theories, you know, it's a mystery. know what brings me peace. think that, you know, I have my own thing that, you know, I'm like, that sounds like, that sounds great to me. It might not sound great to you, but, and I may be right, I may be wrong. That's not something I really get hung up on. And then of course, with like, you know, my vessel, the body, I think for me, where I've realized,

Annalouiza (33:55.477)
It's a mystery.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (33:55.827)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:07.391)
Haha.

Ray Chel (34:19.085)
I actually do have some fear. Something that makes me feel anxious and uneasy is, you know, as a trans man, I fear that in my death, I will not be represented properly. That's one of my bigger fears that I've realized, because I do try to, I check in with myself and I ask myself, what is something that like, you know,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:33.78)
Listen.

Ray Chel (34:43.461)
What is something that makes you nervous? Like, are you are you putting up walls? Is that why you sometimes feel like not a lot of fear in regards to the subject? And you know, obviously, I don't want to leave behind my loved ones and stuff like that. But I think for me, it's like, but what if my loved ones, you know, put me in a box, you know, I've requested not to be involved. I was like, I would like a green burial, I would like to actually be able to

Rev Wakil David Matthews (34:45.855)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (35:08.229)
I want my carbon footprint to be as small as possible in my passing considering I know I'm leaving one here in life. that, you know, but what if they do all that, but they don't call me my name? What if they, you know, what if they don't represent me as a man? And that's something that I do get nervous about. And I've tried to conversations with and everything be like, Hey, like, I know that we're still trying to like,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:14.325)
you

Annalouiza (35:22.604)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:22.665)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:27.198)
Right, yeah.

Ray Chel (35:37.387)
make peace with this in life. But if something were to happen to me, I would hope that you have enough respect for me to put me into the ground as me in the clothing that represents me with the name that I use. And I live in Oklahoma, and there's not a lot of rights for people like me here in Oklahoma. It's not really getting better. So and I know that I've done a little bit of research on

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:47.519)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (35:47.618)
Mm-hmm.

Ugh. Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (35:51.475)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (36:03.416)
know, trans people's, you know, rights and everything in death. And it's a little, it's, it's a little complicated and everything. So, so I do, I do worry about that. And I just hope that while I'm still here and everything, I can continue to advocate for myself and have conversations with the people that are more than likely going to be in charge of that, you know, to, you know, you know, be continuing to pave the path of acceptance. I feel like there's some similarities here.

with trans acceptance as well as know, death acceptance. And then we're just packaging them into one box with my situation is one of my concerns.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (36:39.125)
Sorry, yeah.

Wow. I was just talking to somebody yesterday about who's also trans, and they were saying that my, or I guess non-binary person, and they were saying my life has gone from being challenging because of my choices to being illegal and to being actually attacked as a terrorist in this crazy administration we're living through.

Annalouiza (36:46.744)
Ciao.

Ray Chel (37:04.514)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ray Chel (37:08.705)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:12.277)
And so it just really rises that up in so many ways. I'm so glad you spoke to that because we've, we really need to be aware of that. We really need to think about it and, to think about ways that we can not only advocate for ourselves and for yourself, but also advocate for so many people who are dealing with this and, and how that's such an important piece and so difficult and so important for people. Yeah. For the people who are working the doulas and the funeral directors and people like that to really

Annalouiza (37:18.786)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (37:25.23)
Court.

Ray Chel (37:29.891)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (37:35.67)
It's challenging.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (37:42.023)
understand this and take it in and be willing to advocate and be part of the advocacy for this. So it's hard, it's really challenging. So thank you again for that really important point.

Annalouiza (37:46.466)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (37:48.824)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (37:51.821)
Yeah. And what kill we had somebody who was on our on our podcast who talked about being in service to folks whose families would not create the space. Do you remember who that was? Because that was her thing. She was like, for our trans community, we're going to make sure that they get respectfully, you know, terror or whatever. It was early on. I remember.

Ray Chel (37:51.981)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:04.853)
All right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:09.886)
Yeah, well.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:16.562)
Yeah

Ray Chel (38:18.273)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:19.443)
Yeah, I'll see if I can find it and put it in our podcast notes.

Annalouiza (38:22.636)
Yeah, yeah, so, you know, I would say like an advanced care director, advanced care directive with a really good, strong person who can support that choice for you, right? Like, not a choice to respect you, just, just.

Ray Chel (38:23.329)
Yeah, we'd love to check that out.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:37.332)
Yeah, yeah.

Ray Chel (38:38.113)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (38:42.461)
Yeah, just respect, Your agency,

Ray Chel (38:42.699)
Yeah, it actually and you know, ideally, I'll be I'll be I'll be here a good while, you know, like, you know, like my husband and everything is my number one supporter and everything. And I of course, hope he never has to deal with that sort of thing. But I know that like with him being, you know, my closest person that he would do everything he can to make sure, you know, respected and everything. So so it's one of those things where it's like,

Annalouiza (39:07.404)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (39:12.289)
You know, it's a concern, but I, you know, I am fortunate to be creating a network of people that do treat me with the respect that I feel I and all trans people are deserving of. Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:14.099)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (39:19.416)
Good.

Annalouiza (39:25.198)
Yes, yes, yes. And you know, it's trans people. It's LGBTQ. It's like brown and black. It's like everybody who doesn't fit into like the white normative cisgendered middle class kind of box. Like everybody gets kind of like screwed a little bit if, you know, if they don't have somebody who's actually going to be advocating for like the care of dreadlocks or, you know,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:25.971)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:33.791)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ray Chel (39:33.986)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:44.021)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:47.487)
haha

Ray Chel (39:47.747)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (39:52.884)
Yeah, yeah.

Ray Chel (39:53.674)
yeah.

Annalouiza (39:54.543)
Like there's so many pieces to the death industry that that disregards understanding who is there. Who is this decedent, right?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:02.165)
Yeah, yeah. That was another, I don't know if it was another one or the same one, we spoke to a woman who had just become a funeral director, this is quite a few years ago, a black woman, and she said she walked into the room where they were doing the preparation and the person was about ready to cut off this woman's dreadlocks, right? Because he said, I don't know what to do with this, you know? And so she made it her work and has done this work ever since to, yeah, to teach people

Ray Chel (40:02.497)
Yes. Yes.

Annalouiza (40:20.514)
Yes, yes.

Ray Chel (40:21.773)
hi.

Annalouiza (40:26.208)
It's... that's right. She has a YouTube channel.

Ray Chel (40:28.204)
Yeah. Okay.

Annalouiza (40:31.596)
Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (40:31.733)
in the work in the in the industry, that, you know, the cultural differences between people and to respect those cultural differences. And, you know, in her case, specifically black people, but she also from that, you know, spread out to everybody, all the other people who have cultural differences, and you don't just treat them all like, you know, like, like they're the dominant paradigm, you know. So I really, yeah, that was really impressive. And that whole story of her walking in and going, What are you doing?

Annalouiza (40:34.68)
Mm-hmm.

Ray Chel (40:54.742)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (40:59.146)
Yes. Yes.

Ray Chel (41:00.192)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's...

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:01.909)
And of course she was brand new. She was like this brand new apprentice kind of person. And they were like, who are you to tell us this?

Annalouiza (41:06.19)
That's right. That's right.

Ray Chel (41:07.35)
Yes, exactly. Yeah, the apprenticeship level for sure.

Annalouiza (41:10.734)
And there was that person who is working specifically with funerals for two-spirited people in Canada. That was a different person. yeah, so we have had some intersection with some folks who are caring for others that are not the normal. I don't want to use that word either. That are not what the industry deems as the easy way through.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:12.681)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:18.621)
Yeah, yeah,

Ray Chel (41:19.643)
wow.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:29.607)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ray Chel (41:32.652)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:38.324)
Right.

Ray Chel (41:38.517)
how that one size fits all, know, the industry, you know, especially like, you know, the West's funeral industry is very much like, basically with like the rise of embalming, it very much became like a white man's industry. you know, and, and so whatever kind of fit into that box became the norm. And then as it became more of a true industry, there was even that like, kind of

Annalouiza (41:40.558)
Correct. Yep.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (41:51.743)
Yeah, yeah.

Ray Chel (42:04.159)
financial aspect, it became kind of a show, you know, to be like, who has the best casket, the flowers, the potluck, you know, and, you know, it very much catered to upper middle-class white families. And, you know, so that's kind of how the industry has been formed as a whole. So having people that do not fit into that box advocate for a community that they themselves are a part of, so they understand the struggles.

Annalouiza (42:08.194)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:08.522)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:18.249)
Yep, exactly.

Annalouiza (42:18.36)
Right.

Annalouiza (42:27.234)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (42:33.71)
Mm.

Ray Chel (42:33.821)
is extremely important and you know it's encouraging to hear that y'all have spoken with people that are working alongside communities that don't have the same representation.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:35.37)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (42:44.3)
Yeah, I would.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (42:44.467)
Yeah, yeah. And yet, you know, it's been a, it's not that dominant, yeah, common. Unfortunately, it needs to be more. And that's why every time we can speak with somebody who's lifting that up, it's just so important.

Annalouiza (42:49.23)
Common. Yeah.

Annalouiza (42:57.558)
Yep. I also encourage you to possibly put it on one of your simmering pots of artistic endeavors is to write another zine about this. You know, because. Because I think that nobody thinks about this. Like, it's not on anybody's mind, like after there's a there's a death, like, of course, you know, it's going to be whatever, but no, it's you have to fight for that agency.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:03.231)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (43:08.661)
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's actually a really good idea.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:15.317)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ray Chel (43:16.031)
Yeah, yeah, that.

Annalouiza (43:27.246)
There's a word that we learned recently about that, like what it's called to advocate for somebody after they've passed. And. It was no, it was a different when it was somebody from from New Orleans who told us this word, but. But I think that would be really it's and you know, I love that you reach younger people who hopefully will also the mycelial spread of the youth, you know, coming up and like, you know, maybe changing.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:32.925)
Yeah, fiduciary.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:39.203)
okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (43:55.465)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (43:55.828)
starting that change at that level too.

Ray Chel (43:57.525)
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I'm working on, you know, the broader project, the fictional book Village Vultures. It definitely like is geared towards a younger adult audience. And, you know, it's a it kind of is an extension of the embalming zine. And the main goal I have with it is to begin conversations about,

We have the familiar funeral industry character where it's like, we recognize the funeral home, we recognize the casket, we recognize the involved body. But also, how is it that we as a society currently interact with death? How do we approach it? And I think that one thing that we can all agree on is that most people tend to of shelve the concept until we

Rev Wakil David Matthews (44:44.693)
Mm-hmm.

Ray Chel (44:56.005)
have to become aware of it. You know, it's like out of sight, out of mind. And that's because, you know, we've designed our society to keep it out of sight and to leave it out of mind. You know, we don't want to have, you know, it visible and noticeable and recognizable. And so now, you know, it has affected us in that way to where we really do just kind of, now that this is affecting me, I'm having to face it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (45:10.196)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (45:22.901)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (45:23.103)
Rather than realizing that you as a mortal being every single day, every time you walk out the door and get in your car, you're always kind of in that position where, yeah, yeah, not in a scary, paranoid way, just in a realistic way. We are pretty fragile creatures and that's just kind of the reality of it.

Annalouiza (45:23.469)
Right.

Annalouiza (45:35.586)
You're in the mood. Yeah.

Annalouiza (45:41.974)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (45:42.057)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Annalouiza (45:45.453)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (45:51.011)
not having those moments of being like, well, how do I feel about that fragility, about that mortality? We don't really do that because we're not really, unless you're put in a position where you have to, more than likely, you probably won't.

Annalouiza (45:54.765)
Right.

Annalouiza (46:02.198)
Right. Well, you know, it's interesting this year, your statement just now just brought up like we're consumers, like we're always like, you know, consumer reports, like which washing machine is better than the other and like which shoes will last longer. Why are we not like, you know, learning about how that how we're going to engage in the purchasing of our death thing? Right. Like, why? Why is it what? Like that's kind of a thing, too, like.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:10.121)
haha

Yeah

Ray Chel (46:15.646)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:26.106)
Hahaha.

Ray Chel (46:27.432)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:31.667)
Yeah, I'm gonna write that.

Annalouiza (46:32.054)
You know, is it less expensive to go at this one or, you know, tarot tarot mation in Colorado is this price. But if you go to Wyoming, it's like double or whatever. Right. Like a shoppy. Why aren't we shopping around more and making these choices?

Ray Chel (46:35.27)
Yes!

Ray Chel (46:41.147)
Yeah, the shopping, the shopping aspect for your funeral and everything, you know, it's just not in the hands of the family like it used to be. It goes into the hands of typically somebody else for sure. So.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:45.821)
It should be a consumer reporter.

Annalouiza (46:48.404)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:51.028)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:54.483)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (46:55.591)
Yeah, my god, it just occurred to me. I was like what? We should

Rev Wakil David Matthews (46:59.315)
Yeah, we could have a consumer report article or a wire cutter, know, New York Times wire cutter. Yeah, Right to them, Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (47:02.862)
Yeah, the wire cutter.

Ray Chel (47:04.659)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (47:06.528)
We should like write, write. we'll talk about this. Maybe we could do an April Fool's one where it's like, you know, caskets and bombing process, how much it costs.

Ray Chel (47:09.992)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (47:15.423)
Yeah, Green Beryl, I mean really, my friend.

Ray Chel (47:16.575)
Yeah, yeah. I know that a couple years back, I went to a death cafe and that's actually where I met some of the first death doulas I had a conversation with. And at the time, the National Funeral Association was trying to make some new decisions as far as requirements for funeral homes nationally. And one of the things that they were

Rev Wakil David Matthews (47:23.081)
Mm-hmm.

Ray Chel (47:45.426)
I don't know if the process is a voting process. I know that citizens could go onto the website and basically like make a public comment. And so I was telling people at the death cafe to make a comment on that site because one of things they were trying to make a decision on was whether or not funeral homes should be required to disclose their pricing on their websites by law. Cause currently they do not have to do that. You you might not have that pricing disclosed really anywhere super visible and

Rev Wakil David Matthews (48:06.122)
Right.

Annalouiza (48:11.693)
it.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (48:12.789)
Mm-hmm.

Ray Chel (48:15.206)
the argument against it was like, well not all funeral homes have a website. well, this is like, well, I mean, maybe they should have somewhere online that they can post that. yeah, yeah. Like that, that if we're going to have this industry be an industry, thus, you know, there's going to be a financial transaction involved. Shouldn't families at least know like how much they're about to be spending prior to actually making a phone call.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (48:19.673)
Hahaha.

Annalouiza (48:24.066)
pamphlet with the prices.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (48:25.746)
Yeah, right.

Ray Chel (48:42.205)
for said loved one. Some people make their arrangements in advance and know that and that's just, that's a gift to your loved ones and everything is if you as the person make your plans and everything for your family. But yeah, no, I did think that was interesting. Like, it's not a requirement. Like they don't have to do it and they're trying to decide.

Annalouiza (48:42.914)
Right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (48:50.495)
Yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (48:59.881)
Yeah, yeah. We need a whole other Yelp category, I think.

Annalouiza (49:00.588)
Yeah, I do see the more I. Yeah, we do. That's exactly right.

Ray Chel (49:06.205)
Yeah, start leaving reviews. I have seen reviews that like, it's interesting going on like Google and looking up said funeral home. like, it's so strange that there's Google reviews for this burial plot. Yeah, I it's, I thought it was like, that's interesting.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (49:16.309)
You

Annalouiza (49:16.33)
my gosh, I haven't done that. need to do that. I need to do that. That sounds like a fun activity.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (49:23.413)
You

Annalouiza (49:24.066)
Yeah, you know, I did. I have seen a lot more price because, listen, I just helped a friend try to figure out for his wife who just passed away, but it was interesting to like the price, like variance. I was like, wait, what? Like it's yeah. Shop around folks.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (49:40.127)
Yeah, yeah.

Ray Chel (49:41.168)
Yeah

Rev Wakil David Matthews (49:43.369)
Yeah, right, definitely.

Ray Chel (49:44.059)
Yep, yes, it is like there are differences. It's competitive.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (49:49.108)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's starting to happen now with the composting and that kind of thing, you know, that we started with one of those in our area and now there's two and one other one coming up. So now it's starting to competitive. They're starting to lower the prices, right? So that's, that's happening. And my friend, I was going to say my friend Bodhi, who really helped us kind of start this thing and we're going to actually get to interview him again soon. He was one of our very first people. He has a, he has a nonprofit green funeral home in Hawaii. Maybe the only one, you know,

Annalouiza (49:53.87)
It's so expensive!

Ray Chel (49:56.049)
yeah.

Really?

Ray Chel (50:02.657)
wow.

Ray Chel (50:11.837)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (50:15.609)
Wow, that's cool.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (50:17.307)
And so he always likes to say, well, yeah, we got all these great new alternatives, but they're still expensive. He said, just put the body in the ground. You want the least expensive option? Put the body in the dirt. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (50:29.708)
Yep. Wrap it in a blanket, make a hole and feed it to our mama again.

Ray Chel (50:29.981)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (50:33.851)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (50:35.879)
Yeah, so anyway, I love that we've got this great conversation. We are moving into, this is one of these that we always go, let's try to be done at 40 minutes and then it goes on, which is fine, which is good.

Ray Chel (50:36.957)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (50:40.142)
I know.

Ray Chel (50:42.845)
yeah, yeah.

Ray Chel (50:47.076)
yeah.

Annalouiza (50:47.918)
Okay, all right. All right, what's our next question? How do you, okay, so, Chell, how do you take care of yourself when things feel a little too heavy around the death piece, which you may or may not be thinking about sometimes, but how do you move that energy out of yourself?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (50:52.373)
Ha ha ha.

Ray Chel (51:08.093)
Oh, wow. You know, to be completely real, I am still absolutely working on how to take time for myself to decompress and rest. I'm kind of like a shark and I just kind of have to keep moving. Sleeping occurs, but it's very hard for me to sit still and then not be working on things. And I mean, to say I don't get overwhelmed would be dishonest. I do, I overwhelm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (51:09.119)
Haha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (51:24.575)
Haha.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (51:28.265)
Ha ha ha.

Ray Chel (51:37.724)
even though it's like I enjoy the projects I'm working on. So if I'm on my best behavior, I will actually take a moment to step away and do something that's a little bit, you know, to take a nice walk, to do something active, you know, I try to make time for, you know, to take care of the vessel I'm in and to make sure we are stretching and to make sure we are, you know,

Rev Wakil David Matthews (51:44.316)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (51:53.589)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (52:06.564)
every now and then we're out of breath, maybe we're sweating a little bit, you know, like I tattoo, I write, I draw, there's a lot of sitting down that occurs. You know, the brain is being exercised all the time. So I try to, you know, give the body a chance. That's actually very decompressing for me. And I actually tend to feel quite a bit, you know, better in the world feels like it's.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (52:10.12)
Hehehehe

Rev Wakil David Matthews (52:15.782)
Hahaha

Ray Chel (52:33.774)
starts to move at a slower pace whenever I take the time to actually take care of the body I have while I have it, you know.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (52:35.487)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (52:41.361)
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's so good. Yeah, I don't think I don't. Oops, I'm getting echo. I, Louisa doesn't know anything about that, right? I was just laughing with her when she was cracking up. Finding a finding a moment to take a rest.

Annalouiza (52:41.944)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (52:44.444)
No.

Ray Chel (52:49.712)
Hahaha

Annalouiza (52:52.846)
Yeah, no, it's I understand. Yeah, I yeah, I do. But you know what? I'm going to encourage both of us to rest this brain because I know we've got like hungry brains thinking a lot. The body definitely needs to be stretched, but our hearts also need to be tended to like because I feel like that's the one that is kind of the one I need to take most care of these days.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (53:10.772)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (53:11.321)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (53:17.469)
Yeah, yeah, you should have that on your calendar just like everything else, you know.

Ray Chel (53:18.627)
Yeah, I would agree with

Annalouiza (53:21.558)
I should. I love you. Now's your time.

Ray Chel (53:22.395)
Yeah, if it's not in the calendar, it doesn't exist is what I tell people. I'm like, if I forget to put it there, it might not show up. I have to, I've been told in like my social stuff, all of it. It's like talk to friend on phone and it's like in my calendar to make sure I actually maintain the social life. But I agree, definitely taking time for the heart and everything is a very, very important thing. You know, I, you know, try to.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (53:26.077)
Right?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (53:37.085)
Yeah, I know it has to be that way.

Ray Chel (53:51.215)
continue to go to therapy at least once a month to do all that. But you know, I definitely could probably do more to check in with myself in that way too. It is, it is.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (54:02.601)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we don't do shit.

Annalouiza (54:02.944)
It's a process. No, no, no shoulds. We're doing the work. We don't do shows. We're just we just show up and we're doing the best we can today.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (54:11.583)
Yeah, yeah.

Ray Chel (54:12.123)
Exactly. That's basically my motto in life is you're trying your best. You're doing all right.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (54:16.021)
Right, do do it, yeah. Well, we always want to leave time for you to just tell us if there's anything we forgot or anything that you'd like to share that we didn't ask you about. know, we're anything we missed or anything, you know, and when you were talking about your work, you listed several things and then talked mostly about the zine, right? And I love that the kind of the zine itself is kind of a symbol of our world that we have to go fast, right? We have

Annalouiza (54:17.55)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ray Chel (54:38.235)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (54:42.991)
We can't pick up a, we can't read a whole book. We've got to pick up. But that's, and that's actually why it fits so nicely into our world. So, but anything else that you would like to share with us before we finish up?

Ray Chel (54:43.301)
Yes.

Ray Chel (54:46.98)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (54:50.477)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (54:53.919)
I mean, I guess like, you know, like we mentioned at the beginning, I tattoo professionally. That's what I spend the majority of my time doing. And that's a people's industry. I spend a lot of time with people. And I thought it would be, you know, important to mention, that, you know, one of the aspects of my job that, I think that a lot of people are probably pretty familiar with because a lot of people feel they need a reason to get a tattoo. Not everybody, but a lot of people do.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (55:04.991)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (55:22.87)
And a very common reason is memorialization. And so that's actually been a place where I feel like I was able to really begin to get more exposure to grief and healing was through my occupation. People coming in and it can be tattoos that are handwriting from a card or letter, or maybe it's something that is a visual representation of what that person enjoyed, a hobby.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (55:26.709)
Mm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (55:39.989)
Hmm.

Ray Chel (55:52.698)
and getting to engage in that as an illustrator, as a tattoo artist, and then as the person that is sitting there talking to the person, putting the tattoo on the body. getting a tattoo is, always, and like every tattoo is a brave thing to do. Every tattoo, there's some inherent risk behind it. But, and that's, in life is really worth.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (56:10.805)
Mm-hmm.

Ray Chel (56:18.723)
doing, you know, that is easy. I mean, I think that, you know, taking risks and everything. But one thing that I think about, you know, tattoos that are used for memorialization is there's something very different about that, because most people will get them. And that's it doesn't feel like a risk. feels like a necessary part of their healing process. And, you know, getting to see them, you know, oftentimes a moat and and

Annalouiza (56:36.748)
Wow.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (56:38.283)
well.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (56:44.575)
Mm.

Ray Chel (56:45.41)
and talk about the person. get to learn a lot about the person that I am doing the tattoo for. That has definitely inspired me in my work and everything. And also being like, I could definitely see myself at one point in my life tattooing, I don't know if it's forever, it does a number on your body. I can definitely see myself at one point wanting to fully engage with that side of things. I've talked with

Rev Wakil David Matthews (57:07.701)
haha

Rev Wakil David Matthews (57:13.781)
Hmm.

Annalouiza (57:14.21)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Ray Chel (57:15.076)
with you little bit about death dueling and then things like that and getting to be present for people in that way. And I think that tattooing has been a good introduction for me to kind of what maybe that would be like having those conversations more openly and frequently.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (57:26.727)
Yeah, yeah. That's so cool. That's so great. Yeah. Yeah.

Annalouiza (57:30.722)
Rachel, I just want to bless you because I feel like you could be the most amazing interfaith chaplain tattoo artist. Like full stop well, and that's how Waukelen I met were interfaith chaplains. We went to seminary because we couldn't fit into any one box. We're just like you, you know, all these different faith traditions were like, it's just one big one, whatever, you know, so and then but.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (57:39.817)
Mm. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ray Chel (57:40.458)
I love the combination.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (57:49.161)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (57:49.603)
Yeah!

Rev Wakil David Matthews (57:53.78)
Yeah.

Ray Chel (57:54.575)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (57:58.323)
Yeah, yeah.

Ray Chel (57:59.278)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (58:00.323)
You know, I think that once you recognize that you're serving folks in their grief or their joy or whatever emotion is huge and acute, you know, and you have the skills to do it safely for yourself and safely for them, bear witness to it. I mean, if you're on your way, you're.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (58:19.391)
Wow, it's such a service. Yeah, you're there. I I think many people are there and don't even know it. Yeah. So so glad that you recognize that about it yourself. And so thank you so much. I this is turned. I mean, I always I thought this was going to be one of those awesome ones. And it was. Yeah. That's OK.

Annalouiza (58:24.022)
You are there. Yes, I agree.

Annalouiza (58:37.838)
It's like...

Ray Chel (58:38.36)
Thank you. Yeah, I hope we derail too much. I did the kind of ping pong around with my dialogue. So I appreciate you guys facilitating that.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (58:47.271)
No, that was perfect. It was perfect.

Annalouiza (58:47.38)
No, no, was all everything was so well spoken. But did you bring a poem to read today?

Ray Chel (58:54.68)
I did not, unfortunately. I had a hard time narrowing down what I would do. So I apologized that I didn't come equipped with something like that. I was like, there's so many things. And then I just got like decision fatigue.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (58:56.861)
Yeah, I didn't see one.

Annalouiza (58:57.09)
That's okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (59:00.693)
No worries.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (59:07.879)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (59:10.318)
I know, well listen, yesterday we had, read Lemony Snicket, so that's, you we have the whole gamut.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (59:13.469)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and you know, we've spent more time than usual, so we don't have to every time end with something. So and I think this whole this whole conversation has been a poem really, in many ways. So really, I'm so totally appreciate your work and all that you do. And so we'll say goodbye for now, we will definitely be in touch and

Ray Chel (59:14.964)
I love that, yes. Yes, so I apologize.

Ray Chel (59:23.789)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (59:26.926)
It is. You are a poem.

Ray Chel (59:27.32)
Oh, thank you. Oh, that's very sweet of you.

Annalouiza (59:42.125)
Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (59:42.198)
I was thinking about my daughters both got, when you were saying that, my daughters both got tattoos from a story that I've told them their whole lives. know, it's Star Dancing Girls, you know? So they, that's, you know, a similar idea. They're memorializing their lives and their connection to each other. And I just love that. That was the very first tattoos they got. So now I'm thinking about, well, maybe I do need a tattoo.

Ray Chel (59:42.423)
Yes.

Ray Chel (59:49.691)
Ray Chel (59:53.314)
Okay.

Annalouiza (59:55.928)
Yeah.

Annalouiza (01:00:03.02)
That's so sweet. Maybe we should. We should go to Oklahoma or Rachel anytime you're in Denver, please. You have a home here with me.

Ray Chel (01:00:03.377)
mother. Yes!

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:00:10.611)
Yeah, or Seattle. Yeah.

Ray Chel (01:00:10.836)
Yes. yes. I definitely plan on trying to make it back out there. I mean, maybe even next year for the ZE Fest again. So I'm sure I'll be in the area very soon. And I just love it. Oklahoma's very flat. It's nice to see the opposite of that, see some mountains and everything. It's very refreshing.

Annalouiza (01:00:22.104)
Good. Okay.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:00:27.464)
You

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:00:32.603)
Yeah, yeah. Well, you got to come to the Northwest sometime too. Yeah. All right. Let's say goodbye. Yeah. Sharing. Yeah, very much.

Annalouiza (01:00:36.13)
Yeah. that's so lovely. Thank you so much for for stepping into our space and and joining us. I appreciate you.

Ray Chel (01:00:37.046)
Yeah, yeah.

Ray Chel (01:00:45.322)
Yes, thank you so much for having me and for reaching out and giving me this opportunity. It's been really, really cool getting to talk with you a little bit more and then getting to meet you. I mean, the work you all do is incredible. I mean, the podcast and then the work you do outside of it. mean, yeah, it's nice to connect more with people that have a similar passion.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:01:12.061)
Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks again. We'll see you soon, I hope. Thanks for all your work. Take care.

Annalouiza (01:01:12.184)
Yes.

Ray Chel (01:01:16.556)
Yes, absolutely. Yes, thank you so much. Take care. Bye.

Annalouiza (01:01:19.383)
Adios!

Ray Chel (01:01:25.048)
I'm like, how does this end? There we go. There we go.

Annalouiza (01:01:25.934)
did you see the little leave button?

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:01:27.157)
You click that little leave button.

Ray Chel (01:01:35.369)
Actually no, there it is. Sorry. Thank you guys, you have a good one. Bye.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:01:38.928)
That's all right. Take care.

Heard his dog there last at the end.

Annalouiza (01:01:47.278)
I want your attention. what kill.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:01:53.462)
Good call on finding this person. Wow, what a great find. And such a unique perspective on things. We get to do this so often and every single time we've blown away. But again, this is like a whole other very important, unique perspective that we got to spend time with. And wow, could have kept going.

Annalouiza (01:01:57.196)
Yeah!

Annalouiza (01:02:14.838)
We could have kept going. mean, this is this is definitely one of this is a person who's doing interesting service work and honoring death and talking about it and doing the zine and sharing that, you know, like this person is a change maker. Right, like it is it is very much. I don't know. I really feel like young people who are doing this are.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:02:29.941)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza (01:02:42.126)
my gurus, right? Like they're doing it right from the start. And I'm like, it took me all this time to get here. So, a delight. What a delightful human.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:02:43.039)
Yeah, right, yeah. Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:02:48.533)
He

Yeah, yeah, such a great thing. And doing it in Oklahoma, wow, there's a certain level of courage there. And also, that's such an important thing, too, to be in a place that's not necessarily supportive of the work he's doing or the person he is even. And to be there and be courageous and strong enough to really lift this up and be an advocate for himself and everybody else. So yeah, we need more and more of those.

Annalouiza (01:02:58.921)
I know.

Annalouiza (01:03:08.33)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza (01:03:14.806)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:03:18.709)
What? So inspiring to have somebody share this and I've got all sorts of things I want to do now, right?

Annalouiza (01:03:20.888)
I know.

Annalouiza (01:03:25.058)
me too. was like, and, I really think this is a young person I'd like to keep an eye on and support. Like as an elder, it'd be like, how can I support you to move, you know, in any of these directions that you're, you're dabbling in? Because I don't know, it just makes sense. Like I could see him becoming an interfaith chaplain and being a tattoo artist.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:03:32.085)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:03:38.442)
Yeah.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:03:46.107)
Yeah, that would be so cool. I mean, yeah, I think you have to be elder in training, You're a little too young still.

Kidding. I know, you totally, you take that role very beautifully. Anyway, so...

Annalouiza (01:04:03.448)
Thank you. And yeah, and also as a decide, I just unpacked your book yesterday, your stargazing girls. And it's right here on my loved ones bookcase here. Yes.

Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:04:11.52)
Rev Wakil David Matthews (01:04:15.957)
Star dancing, yeah, yeah, so cool, yeah. All right, well yeah, there's a line from there and there, I think it was, I forget which line they put on there, right on their hip, you know? So cool. Yeah. All right, much love to you, appreciate you, we see you, I think we're on again next week, adios. All right, take care.

Annalouiza (01:04:26.328)
That's so cool. Yeah. Well, blessings. Adios.