Wakil David Matthews (00:02.493)
Hey folks, it's really great to see everybody again with our most recent current affairs or current events episode. Sam and I have got a lot of stuff on our minds. Of course, the top of mind right now is that we are once again at war and watching that happen has really raised a lot of feelings of, I don't know, fear and sadness and ineffectiveness, know, nothing, feeling like we can't stop.

the suffering that's going on and really confusion really, I guess about, you know, what's going on, why is it going on? And so we thought we'd talk about that together today. So I'm Reverend Tawakeel David Matthews and good to be here with you.

Sam Lee Zemke (00:43.374)
Hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (00:49.428)
I'm Sam Lee Zemke, editor and liminal lemur. We'll do that today.

Wakil David Matthews (00:57.395)
I love it. Yeah, so go ahead. How's this affecting you? How are you feeling about today?

Sam Lee Zemke (01:01.165)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (01:05.886)
Yeah,

Sam Lee Zemke (01:15.093)
It's...

Sam Lee Zemke (01:18.808)
hard to describe. It's so I think part of it and and I don't to fall into the trap I think that we so often get into of needing to have quick quick takes and quick responses. This is so fresh and so raw and I can I can feel that I'm still processing and we're all still processing and

Wakil David Matthews (01:20.051)
You

Wakil David Matthews (01:37.566)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (01:47.938)
And I noticed in keeping an eye on news and headlines over the last couple of days, there's so much analysis and that bombarding of just, you know, in your face and your face stuff is relentless and harkens back to what we talked about a couple of weeks ago around having the constant feed of tragedy in our face and in our pockets. And so trying to

Wakil David Matthews (01:57.082)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (02:12.433)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (02:18.318)
not become overwhelmed and desensitized right away. Like two days in, the possibility of becoming desensitized to what's going on and to just sit and feel and allow the narratives to float in their field and to not internalize. And yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (02:24.163)
Yeah. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (02:39.279)
Mm-hmm. That's hard. Yeah. Yeah. When I, when I kind of explore the feelings inside, there is this, there is a deep, deep grief because I feel the sense of, because, because I can't help but feel the, how it must be for so many.

parents, siblings, friends waking up this morning with that deep, deep hole in their lives where somebody was murdered or was killed by rubble or was bombed or was hit by a stray bullet. And this is not just in Iran, but around the world. We've got so many of these things going on. And they do, like you said, they kind of just fade into the background. Right now, Iran is top front and center for us because that's the way our media works.

and we're watching bombs drop and then we're seeing them in other countries. Ukraine is still going on. There's still fighting going on in Africa. There's still fighting going on in...

In Israel, mean, people to think about this and think of the I guess that's what's really deeply Painting in my heart these days is that sense of that kind of sense of waking up in the morning and realizing that people are gone That that hole is there for so many people right now in many countries I mean three three soldiers have died already and maybe more From the United States and so many more people in Iran itself And that's just in that one

tiny, tiny, one conflict that's going on. And I guess part of it, it's a sense of, kind of anger and fear and like, how do, how does this go on? How do we slow it down? And how does it down this? Like we talked about last time, you know, this always need to be at war, you know, this sense that we always have to be in conflict. And is that really have to be that way? And why, what, what is there that we can do about it? And there's, I think, I don't know, part of the

Wakil David Matthews (04:43.449)
upset for me is that sense that even if we do that, that it's frightening even to speak out. Right. Because even though you know, it's much worse in countries with secret police, we aren't that far off from that. And I think it's true that people in our own country are afraid to speak out because they'll be targets. And and

Sam Lee Zemke (04:52.952)
Right.

Sam Lee Zemke (05:09.358)
And that is happening. We are seeing that happen in many, many ways. And these reports come out of people disappearing or having their whole lives turned upside down because they've dared to speak for peace, to speak to our higher...

Wakil David Matthews (05:14.14)
Absolutely.

Wakil David Matthews (05:23.089)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (05:31.675)
Yeah, yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (05:37.516)
higher selves are more like loving to speak to our conscience that these things are wrong.

Wakil David Matthews (05:38.488)
Yeah.

Right.

Wakil David Matthews (05:46.555)
Yeah. And who is it that's so afraid of that, that they have to disappear? Like we have students from some of our universities who literally have been disappeared, deported because of what they said, right? Because of the words they used. so are we, you know, how far are we away from the regime that needs to be changed, you know? And so I really, guess that's part of the...

Sam Lee Zemke (06:08.686)
sure.

Wakil David Matthews (06:12.019)
grief and loss that I'm feeling today too, is with this kind of just one more reminder that that our authorities can just simply decide for reasons that, I hear even people I have, I guess, some respect for saying, well, you know, that's a horrible regime. should have taken, we need to stop that regime. We need to go back and we need to, you know, the doing that isn't a horrible thing. We wiped out these bad, bad people.

Sam Lee Zemke (06:39.63)
you

Wakil David Matthews (06:41.341)
We've taken Maduro out of Venezuela, all this stuff. But really, has that made a difference for the people on the ground? does it really? That sounds good. Sounds like a good justification. But history shows us that rarely and probably almost never does that change things for people on the ground. In fact, the people on the ground suffer and suffer more. So I guess that's, again, that's another piece of it that's just.

swirling in me right now. I want to make sense of it. It's part of you know, state of things to help us stay calm and stable and grounded is to kind of be able to say, okay, I understand that, but I don't, frankly, I just do not. Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (07:11.368)
Mm.

Sam Lee Zemke (07:25.346)
Right? I think there's beauty and power in just acknowledging that. I don't get it. I don't know what the bleep, like what justifies this? How do I even get in the mind?

Wakil David Matthews (07:37.991)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (07:44.061)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (07:52.894)
in the climate of mind as I spoke to last week. What mind, it's a very fearful mind, I think, that sees these as justifiable and positive solutions. And I've been thinking as we prepare to have this conversation is,

Wakil David Matthews (08:01.585)
Yeah, yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (08:11.379)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (08:23.944)
What advice can we offer or practical skills to help us feel empowered to talk with each other and to...

Wakil David Matthews (08:35.565)
Mm-hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (08:42.014)
not be drawn back into the shadows or crushed by the fear. And as we sit here, I'm...

Wakil David Matthews (08:46.291)
you

Sam Lee Zemke (09:00.654)
I'm feeling just the sense of...

I guess leading by example. Like just you and I sitting here having this conversation and you know, the privilege of identity is getting thinner and less, it's a less robust and reliable piece of armor in the face of what's going on.

Wakil David Matthews (09:22.032)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (09:26.799)
Hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (09:34.783)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (09:38.05)
but it still has enough.

enough guarding to it that you and I can sit and have this conversation and put it out for other people to listen to. We can take on that risk a little.

Wakil David Matthews (09:51.583)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, and I think about, yeah, yeah, because at least you're right, the protection that our identity as white males gives us perhaps is a bit of a barrier against our being picked up on the street tonight. But yeah, again, you know, that's also sinning, but it's worth it's absolutely worth recognizing.

Sam Lee Zemke (10:12.546)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (10:19.195)
And it's so important to recognize that because it doesn't apply to other folks. so even the people who were picked up from Columbia University, because they were people of color or they were Arab, but they were here legally and everything else, they were students, but they dared to speak against the government, which is exactly what we're doing right now, whether we're being, we're not being, I guess we're not being totally out there about it, but.

But really the feeling is that, as you said, we know that this, we try to understand in some way what's going on in the minds of the people who feel like that was a solution. And that, as we talked about last week, it probably comes down to fear and need for power and power over in order to, what are they afraid of losing? Right? And,

Sam Lee Zemke (11:14.424)
Feel safe. Yeah. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (11:18.443)
And so, but that's just almost impossible for us to put our minds into because it's just not where we come from. So yeah, as an example to others and how to go through this and how, if you're feeling similarly to what we are feeling, first of all, as you said, Sam, the important part is just to notice it and be willing to stay with that feeling and have people in your community, hopefully that you can share it with. You can certainly write to us and we'd be glad to.

Sam Lee Zemke (11:24.814)
Hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (11:48.691)
to spend time with you on it. But find people to talk to and find people to wail with if you need to or whatever you need to do, right? Yeah. What other practices would you recommend for this?

Sam Lee Zemke (11:58.082)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (12:06.542)
I think hearkening back to that piece about the onslaught of information of narrative.

that

Sam Lee Zemke (12:28.044)
we can feel an urgency to act or an urgency to meet the moment. And I think that there is, it comes back to balance for me. That, yeah, that, you know, it's good that people are banding together and...

Wakil David Matthews (12:33.189)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (12:44.363)
Yeah, always.

Sam Lee Zemke (12:56.856)
going out and speaking out publicly about what's going on. And not everybody can do that. Not everybody's safe to do that. And not everybody's nervous system can handle that. And so it takes all of us doing different parts to

Wakil David Matthews (13:08.011)
Yeah. Exactly.

Wakil David Matthews (13:23.889)
Mm-hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (13:25.748)
maintain our heart and soul and our well-being through this. And so if it's feeling frayed and you're afraid, to find those ways to slow down.

And I think, I think in some ways, I mean, we talk about like general strikes and things like that. That's a huge slowdown. Talk about slamming on the brakes, right? And, there are collective and individual ways to do that, but.

Wakil David Matthews (13:50.437)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (14:12.056)
But there is, I think there is value in being one of many who act as the parachute behind the dragster that's careening in a particular direction. And...

Wakil David Matthews (14:25.652)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (14:33.836)
So I'm reminded I was at a little sort of grief and an inner work processing group the other night. And we were eating beforehand and talking about dreams. And when it was my turn, I talked about a recent pretty intense dream I had regarding current state of affairs and my own death.

Wakil David Matthews (14:48.787)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (15:00.389)
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (15:02.484)
and witnessing my own death and being the primary investigator and defender and like sort of prosecutor in my own death against, I will not name who, but like a high ranking government person who had personally ended my life. And one of the other people was like, wow, it sounds like you are doing some like deep grieving for everybody.

Wakil David Matthews (15:30.9)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (15:32.096)
you're processing some pretty like big collective stuff in that dream. And

And so I've been thinking about that and thinking about my perspective on collective process. And I keep talking about these amazing books that I'm reading in my class. one is about the power of prayer through like sort of scientific medical means. This one.

Wakil David Matthews (16:07.095)
Mm-hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (16:08.93)
Just for whoever's curious, it's called Healing Words by Dr. Larry Dawsey. And one of the big things he talks about in it is non-local consciousness and how in the studies that he's encountering,

Wakil David Matthews (16:11.315)
yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (16:22.835)
Mm.

Sam Lee Zemke (16:32.398)
the distance, space and time, don't really affect the power of prayer. They are effective, not reliably, because nothing works all the time and he goes into all that, that the time and space piece is not a restrictor on prayer.

Wakil David Matthews (16:41.006)
Wakil David Matthews (16:59.347)
Mm.

Sam Lee Zemke (17:02.83)
For me, that expands into not just active prayer or even just prayerfulness, but the way that we comport ourselves and live our lives and do our best to live our values has ripples that we don't know. so showing up and talking with each other, you know, maybe

Wakil David Matthews (17:22.407)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (17:30.129)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (17:32.342)
Maybe it's the guy I met at the dog park who was like, wow, how about all the stuff going on guys at the dog park where it's small talk central? And some people kind of went, but a few of us were like, yeah, holy moly. And, and I, I went up him I was like, thank you for speaking to this in this space. Because so many of us try to put our heads in the sand and, and go about days and it's.

Wakil David Matthews (17:34.973)
Hehehe.

Wakil David Matthews (17:39.036)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (17:52.594)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, perfect.

Sam Lee Zemke (18:03.67)
It's maybe not as safe to do that now. You don't know who you're talking to at the dog park. And, and, and we, you know, we are in a time of, the last thing I'll say about this and, bring back to like the fear and the way that we can feel stifled and suppressed and, the need to protect ourselves and the challenging, I don't have answers for that. It's, something that every person needs to determine for themselves.

Wakil David Matthews (18:05.405)
Yeah, right. Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (18:33.688)
But we are seeing a rise, especially toward our kin of color and marginalized people, queer, you know, that...

Wakil David Matthews (18:43.08)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (18:46.835)
Absolutely.

Sam Lee Zemke (18:51.65)
because of the way the current state violence system works with sort of deputizing the reporting of citizenry, like, like, ratting on each other call, you know, is a spike in people calling in and

Wakil David Matthews (19:06.595)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (19:19.66)
directing the state violence machine at their community members for petty feudal reasons. And that scares the sh- that scares the shit out of me.

Wakil David Matthews (19:27.027)
Yeah, Yeah, just one more thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's, yeah. I think, you know, just I want to kind of take a breath and also think back about. if you, you know, audience, if our audience is feeling similarly kind of this sense of, oh, my God, it's happening again. What am I going to do? You know?

And it's kind of the purpose of this is for us to be able to talk this through together and for hopefully to be of some value to all of you. You know, do think about what is it that you can do yourself to maintain your own balance, but also in your community, who can you reach out to? Some of us will feel comfortable being out on the streets today or later in the month, there's going to be another no Kings kind of thing, but others not. And,

Again, it depends on who you are, where you are. And the things that Sam just talked about are going to be more dangerous for people of color, for people in the trans communities, for people with LGBTQ. And so again, you as a person and you as a community need to be aware of what's safe for you and find your people.

One thing we come back to every time is we have limited power to really make the changes we'd like to make. But the power we do have is right here in our own communities. And so you can go into the dog park and start a conversation. You can be kind to somebody. You can live your life looking for ways to be supportive and helpful to people. You know, we talked the episode when we talked about is this DNA level need to fight, you know,

Really, when you look at people in the one-to-one, know, and somebody falls down, everybody there runs to help them, right? If, you know, there's an earthquake, everybody helps each other out. All these, so you've seen this examples over and over and over again. People in community, the tendency or the natural way of being is to help each other out and to be there for each other. And so looking for ways to lift that up in your own lives and in your own

Wakil David Matthews (21:54.653)
communities is kind of creating that light. And as I loved your metaphor about creating a little bit of drag on on the, you know, rushing into another war or rushing into another mess, or just as even even the sense that we don't have control. You can your drag, you're putting a little drag on that too, I think when you take the time to really be present for people around you.

So hopefully that's something that we all can do and we can help ourselves feel a little more centered and grounded and useful. And, but again, you know, don't hesitate to find people that you can wail with, that you can, you know, be in bereavement about because there's a lot to be in grief about. And we don't want to ignore that. We can't ignore that. So yeah, it's a circle. We're kind of circling around.

But in the end, I think it's just because one more time when we started looking at current events, it just really hit us both and all of us about, wow, can this still be going on? Do we still have to worry about ulterior motives from our government? Again, I've been around since Vietnam. this is very similar to the way Vietnam started. And before that, I was even around at the end of the Korean War.

Sam Lee Zemke (23:12.366)
I was-

Wakil David Matthews (23:21.231)
every single war when you go back and look at it through history began with some pretty vague and not very well proven and in the end disproven justifications and ended up with lots of loss of people and treasure and I just hate to see us starting to cycle again. So that's where I came into this discussion this morning and started talking with.

Sam Lee Zemke (23:44.43)
it.

Wakil David Matthews (23:50.161)
Sam and so I hope that that our conversation has given you something of value and maybe given you something to think about.

Sam Lee Zemke (23:54.766)
Yeah. A couple things before we wrap up. One is as you're speaking to that and talking about non-locality, but also

but also the space that we share on this planet. And maybe one of the...

Wakil David Matthews (24:15.346)
Mm-hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (24:22.496)
one of the backwards gifts of this time that we are.

Wakil David Matthews (24:26.451)
Thank

Sam Lee Zemke (24:32.92)
that we are closer to the struggle that the globe is under and has been under.

Wakil David Matthews (24:35.795)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (24:44.754)
brings us closer together. We can understand the struggle of people in Iran better right now than perhaps in Iraq when we were all a little more isolated. You know, there was 9-11 and that brought conflict to our doorstep in a way that the United States had not experienced maybe ever.

Wakil David Matthews (24:54.886)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (25:08.337)
Yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (25:14.52)
But it brings it, I feel like it brings our heart closer to the hearts of everyone else. And it really, for me...

Wakil David Matthews (25:20.282)
Mmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (25:26.218)
I'm a big, none of us are free until we're all free and liberation for all. And so the closer we can be to the citizenry of every other country who probably doesn't want war and conflict, you know, with few exceptions. That I think also empowers those places of prayer and shared like.

Wakil David Matthews (25:42.48)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (25:54.642)
Yeah, yeah.

Sam Lee Zemke (25:54.752)
energetic holding. And with that in mind, maybe the last thing we can offer today is, Akhil, would you be open to speaking a little on the fly prayer? Say some words for all of those who have died.

Wakil David Matthews (26:15.761)
Hmm. Hmm.

Sam Lee Zemke (26:24.856)
through all of these conflicts just to the death in the world or those particularly over the last few days in the current conflicts that are right in our face.

Wakil David Matthews (26:32.923)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (26:37.863)
Wow. I guess, you know, as a minister, that's my job, right? Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a valuable thing. And I think we could end that way.

Yeah, there's this, I guess what I'll just say, and in this sense of prayer, that let's all just take a breath, feel ourselves connected, notice our connections. Notice the connections to the many, many, people who are suffering today and every day, specifically that have been wounded and harmed by our

our power, the people in power over us. And let's just hold those folks and their families. Not to mention that I don't think we should leave out, we definitely can't leave out the planet, which is suffering and has been suffering from our abuse. And again, the abuse of the leadership that doesn't seem to be paying attention.

So let's take a moment and just hold the planet, hold each other, hold those grieving families.

and friends.

Wakil David Matthews (28:04.751)
and wish peace to those who have gone on to the next place.

and to ourselves.

Wakil David Matthews (28:17.309)
With breathing, with prayer, with thankfulness, it's gratitude for the things we have, and for gratitude to the connections we have.

Wakil David Matthews (28:34.565)
May it be so.

Sam Lee Zemke (28:37.102)
So thank you.

Wakil David Matthews (28:38.527)
Yeah. Well, I appreciate you asking me that, Sam. That's a new step. And we hope it's valuable. We hope that folks can really take the moment to rest in the fact that you are held, that you are loved, that you are part of a community, a worldwide community, including the planet, that does care.

Sam Lee Zemke (28:45.326)
Thank

Wakil David Matthews (29:04.955)
And that by being in that place, sitting, by holding yourselves in that place of prayer and concentration and groundedness, that we are making a little more light in the darkness. So, thank you so much. We'll see you again next time. Please like and subscribe and tell all your friends. So, adios.

Sam Lee Zemke (29:24.334)
Thank you.

Adios.