SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome everybody. You know, we noticed that many, many people assume that when somebody dies, the only proper option is a traditional funeral, using a funeral home, right? The problem, of course, is that traditional funerals can often cost thousands of dollars. And and we know many, many families can't afford that. They don't have that kind of money, right? And of course, especially if it happens suddenly, if death happens suddenly, families feel pressured to make fast decisions while they're grieving. That's the hardest time. You have this grief mind that that can't do that, right? Some people quietly worry what happens if someone I dove dies and I can't afford the funeral. And others assume that the only alternatives are something impersonal or environmentally harmful. You know, like it has to be big to make it worth to honor the person.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

That's right. So these are real issues, but the real issue isn't that families are unprepared or irresponsible. The issue is that most people were never told about the options that they have.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

There are legal, affordable, and environmentally thoughtful ways that we can handle death amongst our community. And we're finding out more about this these days. Uh families have far more rights and choices than the funeral industry typically discusses. So that's a very key piece. We are making choices without actually all the information. So once people understand their options, the situations can become a lot less and overwhelming. On this episode, we meet with Liz Dunnebecke, whom we have spoken to before. She was with us on season four, episode eight.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Check it out.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Check it out. And this episode is part of a large effort called a podcast thon, in which thousands of podcasts are helping promote worthy nonprofits and charities such as Wake, the organization Liz founded in New Orleans. So listen up because today you're going to find out what happens if you if you can't afford a funeral, different affordable funeral and green burial options, legal rights and community resources for end-of-life care. Who legally controls disposition decisions about what families are allowed to do for themselves, right? Which you might be surprised. And community organizations and nonprofits that support this endeavor.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Yeah. So we hope to by the end of today's episode, or we we would say by the end of today's episode, you definitely will understand hopefully better and more practical options that many families don't ever hear about. We're going to walk through affordable paths, environmentally conscious choices, and the legal rights that you and your family have when somebody dies. So our goal is really simple. We want to help people feel less trapped by the system and give them the information they need to make thoughtful decisions for themselves or the people they love. So stay tuned.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Yes. Stay with us.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Welcome, friends. I am the Reverend Joaquil David Matthews. We are so honored and happy today to welcome back Liz Dunneck. Liz is the founder and executive director of Wake. It's a nonprofit organization that provides information and resources to support meaningful, affordable, and environmentally friendly death care. We actually talked to her earlier in this last year, 2025, and you can hear her episode with us. Except uh, let's see, it was season four, episode eight, another excellent episode and really um beautiful, wonderful stories that she told. And we're glad to have her back. Uh, we were recently invited to do a special episode as part of something called Podcast Thon, which you'll probably Podcaston. Podcast Thon, yeah, which you'll hopefully uh hear more about. We will be sending some stuff out and you should be hearing more about. It's basically, I think, literally thousands of different uh episodes going on in podcasts talking about all the wonderful work that's being done in nonprofits and charities. And so when we started thinking about this, we thought, Liz, we should invite Liz back. Um so really glad to have her back to join us for this episode.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

That's right. That's right. And I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Armendares. And just to let you know that Liz has served on boards and staff of several New Orleans-based nonprofit organizations in the arts and education. Since 2013, they have worked to develop national resources for sustainable and affordable end-of-life care, serving on the board of the Green Burial Council and forming the Equitable Disposition Alliance. We're excited to share their work and highlight the need for all of us to do our part to support affordability at the end of life for for everyone. Everybody, no matter their financial or cultural situation. So I am just so honored that you said yes to coming back and talking to us, Liz. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me back. And um I'm really honored to be here.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

I know in your in the episode before, um, one of the things that you really emphasized was um the way that we really don't understand what happens to people who don't have funding, that don't have the means to um to be taken care of, and how many people those are. Uh can you talk more about that and and actually just tell us more about what Wake and the work you're doing in general?

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Absolutely. Um Yeah, I mean, so I started Wake in 2020 and um it was a second career for me. I don't know if I ever mentioned that before, but this was not my background. And, you know, I had um I was an amateur, you know, and I was like looking at the deathcare space and trying to sort of understand what the needs were. And, you know, I I first of all I was casting about for other organizations that might be providing these kinds of services, of which there were none. You know, I mean, not only not locally, but like just providing direct service, like there's almost none still in the country, unless you want to pay for it. Um, and then there's more and more growing resources around that, which is great. But we need more. We need a lot more for everything. So, you know, I was casting about and I couldn't find anything. And I thought, oh my God, am I gonna have to like make this myself? I'm really I'm I don't know what invent the wheel. Yes. What's you know, it's so funny that you said that. And I probably did mention this before because that was always the analogy. You know, my origin story is my mom dying and just going through that process with her. And that was what I thought to myself, like, why is this so hard? Why do I feel like I'm inventing a wheel? Dealing with somebody dying when everyone dies. So yeah, it is, it was like inventing the wheel. Um, and and so, but I thought, well, look, if I keep it really, really grassroots and really small, there's gonna be an ongoing need for it, whether it's me doing this forever, you know, you don't want to just start up all the red tape of starting up a nonprofit just to be like, eh, I've changed my mind. So I knew, you know, and so we started with a mission that really had like green burial and environmentally friendly disposition um in the forefront. And pretty quickly we had to kind of pivot, it's still really part of our, you know, guiding mission, but we had to pivot to what was the biggest uh crisis in the community, and that was around access. And access is about affordability. So every time somebody dies, they have to face the for-profit funeral industry to greater or lesser degrees, depending on where they are in the country. Um and here in Louisiana, you gotta, you know, you gotta pay for every step of the way. By law, a body has to be in the care of a licensed funeral director from death until disposition. What's it like where you guys are?

SPEAKER_00 8:05

It's pretty similar. It's the same.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Yeah, it's the same.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

I mean, we talked last time, and you had you had mentioned some of the organizations you're part of, and I hope we'll get to those again. I definitely want to get to those again. Uh, in the Washington state area, we have PMA, which is the uh People's Memorial Association, uh, which is you know a similar idea. It's like and it can't it started I don't know how long ago, quite a while ago, when I discovered it. Um, you know, my my great story around that is I discovered it after my mother died. And um I went through the used car salesman operation with the local um funeral home. I mean, she had done a really good job of providing and taking care of things, end-of-life stuff, and she'd done better than most. But they had um a plan that they had paid many years ago, and it ended up with this, you know, at a funeral home. And um, it was horrible. It was the worst possible thing that I could go through at that point in the grief that I was in to be hammered away at, you know, well, your mom wouldn't want you to do the cheapest thing, you know, and you know, all this stuff. Thankfully, my wife was with me and she told him to, um, well, she told him where to put it, but um but it was the same thing as a used car deal, you know, he says it's like, well, you know, um I I know you want this option, I need to go talk to my manager, you know, the same thing, same same story. Anyway, um, right after that, somebody introduced me to PMA, to the People's Memorial Association. And since then I've signed everybody in my whole family up and told everybody about it that lives here in this area. Um so basically the difference is that you let them know, you sign up. It's a it's a lifetime membership. You sign up and you let them know what you want to have happen, and they've got a cooperative they've created between funeral homes in the area that have all agreed to this model where it's less expensive and or discounted to some extent and for any services, but and they also support green burial and other choices. But when you d when the person dies, you call them instead of a funeral home. They do what you ask them to do. They'll give you as much time with the body as you want, um, up to legal, which I think is three days here, and in many days, um, whatever, you know, it'll let you clean the body, whatever you've chosen. And then when they're done, they take the body and when you and the next thing you hear from them is the remains are ready. And that's it. There's no, you know, please buy the biggest funeral, you know, do the biggest thing. You know, it's just very much respect, very, very respectful of a person's space in that in that time of life. So I really appreciate that. So that's what's happening in in our area. At least that's one good example of what's happening. There's also the you know, for profit insanity that is here for sure and and full-blown.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

And then everywhere, right, there's just some people who can't afford any of it. Any of it. Even that. Right. Yeah, because it's, you know, let's face it, it's like a sudden expense for most people. Most people don't have insurance, and that's across the board. That is across every socioeconomic, you know, kind of uh tranche. You have a real under um representation of people who have that insurance, end-of-life insurance. Um, and because I think that's always posited as like the answer. And I can't tell you how many clients we get who are in this sort of like self-flagellating mode. Like, I thought my mom, yeah, I should have. I thought my mom had a policy, and I'm like, oh honey, like you are not a most people don't.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

Well, or they do. And I mean, at this funeral conference last year, there was a woman who was like, that's also scammy.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

That's a lot, there's a lot of issues with that, with especially with POC.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Yeah. Uh people of color, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

People of color, yeah. And so I really heard that because uh the funeral home where I work have have really tried to get me to start selling those to my community. And I'm like, I'm not comfortable with that because what happens when this place isn't here? It's like, oh, well, that'll roll over into a bank. And I was like, in those moments of grief, if they've you know, there's not a posse of people who can go out and like, I'll make these phone calls, you do this. It's generally one person.

SPEAKER_03 12:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

And I'm like, I can't, I can't sell this because I actually don't I can I can't do this.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

What I wanted to actually well, that's interesting that you say that because people when they ask me, what should I do? I don't tell them to get an insurance policy. I tell them to, if you've got the money, put it into an account that's right that has the person who's gonna be your who is your, and this is the other piece, right, is getting that right of disposition so that this person who after you die and all the powers of attorney expire, that person has the right to deal with it. Co-title them on the account. And then they can just touch that money when they need to. But that's, you know, not everybody can do it.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

I and nobody has this like wherewithal to ask these questions. But let me just say this. I have a little quick, quick story for you. I walk alleys in the mornings. I walk my entire hour walking and doing my prayers in alleys. And so I get to do a lot of dumpster diving because stuff is around. And what I do is I find things that people just throw out when they're moving and I throw it into boxes and I take it to goodwill because people in this country throw away incredibly brand new good stuff that they just toss. So uh last week I saw this little book in the, you know, on the ground, and I was like, they had thrown away like a couple of really pretty leather-bound journals that were empty and just an assortment of things. And I was like, I threw it in a laundry basket that they left, and I was like, I'm gonna clean everything, I'm gonna take it to the Goodwill or to the mutual aid group that I do on Sundays because people are happy to get nice things that these are nice things. So I came home and I cleaned it up, and then I was like, Oh, how many pages am I gonna tear up? This is what I was given. I got somebody who had somebody die and they started writing down how much things cost. Oh my god. Thirty one hundred dollars for a service, yeah, uh transpost six hundred and fifteen, eight hundred and ninety-five for a graveside service, fifteen hundred for and the list goes on.

SPEAKER_03 14:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

And then I'm assuming it's a woman. I'm you know, this the but they're like, you know, just the mortuary charges will be eight thousand four hundred and seventy. She writes down questions that she has. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:22

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

And uh it goes, it goes on. And then it's like, so merch uh mortuary charges 8,000, and then the plot, 13,000. And then she's, you know, the the service is like last August or whatever. Total.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

22,000. Wow. Almost 32, 20,000.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Oh my god. And she has like questions to do, uh, casket, cold cut platters. This person.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Wow. What a great example.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Her two her to-do lists, scan photos, build slideshows, Spotify playlist, oh my god, items for display. I don't know who this person is.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

They just gave you a perfect primer on like this is why this is so hard. I mean, there have been so many points in my life. I would say that there's been maybe two, three years in my life when I, I mean, I could never afford that price tag. Yeah. I would never. I don't have, I don't have with combining all the credit cards between myself and my husband together, we couldn't do that. So it's like, who, you know, who is expected? And that's obviously like that's$22,000, but any of it, I mean, I have been in the position with a family member where, okay, we're gonna need$1,000 for direct commission. Well, nobody has a thousand dollars on headroom on their credit card. That's right. I mean, that's the difference, right? This isn't just like, and I always like to say this to people because I think there's a little bit of like a an understanding that like, oh, these poor people who can't afford funeral services versus all of us. It's us, it's every just when happens to arrive and you have to make those platters of cold cuts, and you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

And I just uh I was like dumbstruck when I found this and read through it. And I actually I set it up here in my you know, death and dying um bookshelf as a reminder that this is who we're talking to. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

Yeah, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

And uh yeah, she she may have spent this, maybe people collectively spent this, but it's a travesty to spend that much.

SPEAKER_03 16:39

It is.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

I mean, it is, and then you know, there's those who for whom this is really important and it's what they do. And, you know, this is a big struggle that I work a lot with my colleague here, um, because you know, this is a town with really rich, deep death ways, right, um, and cultural traditions, and some of those traditions are extraordinarily elaborate and expensive. And, you know, it's a big piece of sort of um cultural ritual, religious ritual to partake in these things. And I am it's just not ever gonna be our place to come forward and be like, well, you shouldn't be spending that kind of money.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

Well, this is true. Okay, so this is true. So that's there, it's a spectrum, right? Yes, it is a spectrum of your desires, your what you can afford, what you really value. Yes. Uh, and it's also the reality that a lot of families would would love for their loved one to have something super special. Yes, but they can't actually even get the body out of Hawk.

SPEAKER_03 17:45

Right. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Right? Like it's a whole spectrum.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

Yeah. Uh that's true.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Yeah. Yeah. So it's almost like on the one hand, you need more options so that there's an option for everybody. You need to normalize it when you can't spend as much as you want to spend. And then it's got to also be okay that some people do spend that money. And you know, these are the conversations I have with the funeral homes in my city. Is like, I mean, I say this to them, like, I'm not coming. Cause you know, there's a lot of trepidation about, well, what is Wake doing and why are they always trying to get these prices down? And, you know, we're out there like trying to help families put a GoFundMe together, you know. And and telling them, like, call the funeral home, calling them that we're still working on it. It's gonna, because it takes a while to crowdfund thousands of dollars. Um and, you know, there's a little bit of like of a wary relationship. And I'm always like, look, I this again, it's it's a growth business. More people are coming, there's room for everyone. And I there will always be a place for those$20,000,$30,000 home goings in this town, always.

SPEAKER_03 18:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

It's just that for every one of those, I've got 10 people who can't get a basic disposition. So we have to have something for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Yeah, yeah. That's such an important thing. And and a couple of things you said last time that I think are really important for all of our aler listeners to hear again was first of all, the that part about who's going to be able to do the disposition for you, who's gonna have the rights of disposition. Um, because one of the things that is often the case that people say, well, I've given this person the power of attorney, but power of attorney goes away when you die. That was something that I was surprised about. And um and so there is a specific thing that you should have in your advanced care directive. And really all of this just speaks to preparing ahead of time and talking about it ahead of time, which is our mission, of course, to get this out to people you know having this conversation because not if it's not done, then you're stuck where many of your people are stuck. You know, they they expected there to be something in place, expected somebody to have taken care of this and there's nothing there. And so um, even if they've had a power of attorney for their financial or their health care, that power of attorney goes away when they die, and then then there's nobody that person is not able to make the decisions about how their body is disposed, the body disposition. And so that's a special piece that needs to be included. And you said that you guys have special language for that, and I think others do too. But the the other thing that that brings up, and we talked about, and I'd like to have a little more about that, is um when that's not taken care of, the default is your immediate family. And and I'm sure you've had cases, and I'm wondering if you could talk about some of the cases where the immediate family is totally inappropriate.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting. It's it's part of this sort of like revol this this journey for me of realizing that this this death care is really just health care. Yeah. Um, and I don't know how much that was sort of on that soapbox last time we spoke. But um No, we we talked about that. I love that. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, because I think I said, you know, like you like until disposition happens, you've got a body.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

And healthcare is what deals with bodies. So I I would like to see that, you know, healthcare extended all the way until disposition happens, but it doesn't. But in the same sense, it kind of goes, it defaults to the same um I I say, like medical ethics that are at work in healthcare. And healthcare also is a place where people are disenfranchised because they don't have because of where they might or might not fall in the legal next of kin hierarchy. That's right. In healthcare, you're legal next of kin. And I don't know if next of kin changes, like the order changes from state to state. I know what it is in my state.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

It's like spouse or children, then like okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

And of course, it's always like a majority of your children have to decide, which already it's like if you have two kids, you really might not have any agreement.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Um and so, but yeah, so a lot of people don't have that, you know, and I mean this, so we do see this happen all the time. You know, we have Of people who are life partners of somebody and they have been into the hospital for procedures or as the person was getting sick or through their cancer treatments or whatever, they had the they were the healthcare proxy, right? They had the medical power of attorney. So they were making all those decisions for years. And um, and then they're like, Yeah. And then what happens is when that person dies, then they go to the funeral home to make the decision and you know, about disposition, and the funeral home says, I'm sorry, were you legally married? Um, and if they're not legally married, then you I mean, these are one of these protections, right, that legal marriage affords. And then it's like, I'm sorry, we can't, we can't speak to you, we can't help you, we've got to go with legal next of kin, and then you really are on this journey. I mean, we just had a client recently who the daughter was trying to um bury her mother. She was trying to cremate her mother, and her mother had been married years before and had never officially gotten divorced. Nobody had heard from this guy in 30 years. Oh my god. They didn't know if he was alive or dead, what state he lived in, where he was. But the daughter couldn't proceed with making disposition arrangements for her mother because there was a spouse somewhere in theory. That is such a horror story. Yes. I mean, it happens all the time.

SPEAKER_03 23:24

You know?

SPEAKER_01 23:25

My God. So yeah, it's real, and no one knows this. I mean, what what kills me is that like we tell this, we we talk to like hospice and palliative care nurses and social workers, and they don't know this. So I'm like, if they don't know it working where they do at this intersection, you can bet that no one, you know, globally, people really don't understand. That's right. And I think I think state lawyers are often savvy about this, and they often will include this language in wills and, you know, kind of end-of-life paperwork. But the problem is that stuff all gets kind of um, I mean, a will is usually disposition usually happens before a will is read. And so there's some decisions that really need to be pulled out and made available and and known to people, and people are powered to make those decisions before, you know, an estate is like settled out.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Yeah. Did you find with that that you needed a specific language that said this person is in charge of the disposition of the body rather than uh in in most of the advanced care directives, or somebody who's the health care agent, but not some not necessarily a uh power of attorney, but they're called the healthcare agent. And it says in in the ones that we've used that this person has the right to decide or can follow my wishes as far as my disposition.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

That's great. So yeah, and I think um my program manager, I think, just found that like California's got a really great um uh health healthcare directive, uh uh like Living Will that actually includes that language as well. And that's the obvious way to do it because you're making these decisions and it's just one more step. Uh we didn't find anything in Louisiana that had that. So we created a an independent, like a standalone form. Um but yeah, I think that the best way to do it is to like make kind of a comprehensive document and people can just check off what's relevant to them. Yeah. For many people, it's not an issue, obviously, if your next of kin is the person you want making those decisions. And you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Yeah, hopefully. Well, we, you know, and this since this goes out internationally, even it's a really good thing for everybody who's listening to think about and find out about in your area where you live, what will it take for somebody to be able to uh honor your wishes for the disposition of your body? And or I think we talked about this last time. Are you willing to just say, I trust you, you're the you know, I won't be here, you can do whatever you want.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

Yeah. Well, and I I was listening to our episode, and I'll and that was when I talked about my kids really had a very different opinion about how to dispose of a body. So I was like, I'm gonna have to decide and then just be like, do the thing, okay? So don't think about it, don't overthink it. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Well, that brings up such a good point because like funerals are so I mean, so we can go on for I my my um programs manager and I really we love like do and are we supporting the dying person or the family? Is the funeral for the dead person or is it for the family? I mean, at least in some part, large part it's for the the remaining the grievers. Yes, the grievers. And so if those people are locked out, if they're disenfranchised, if they're cut out of that process because of a legality, that's really a tragic outcome that hopefully can be avoided. But yeah, there's no doubt that like you might want something, your kid wants something else. And you know, I I have all these desires, and I think I may have said that like at the end I just write, just do whatever you need to do. I'll be dead.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

You know. Well, we had you said the same thing last time too. And I said, I I had the same thought. I was like, I'm dead, I don't care. Like, whatever serves the two kids, there's a those they're my family. Yeah, but I I brought this up last time was that um they couldn't, they were both having a conversation about how to to dispose of our cat's body, even though the cat actually belonged to my daughter, but my son had something to say about it. And so they spent like, you know, an hour discussing like disposal of bodies. And, you know, and I was listening to the whole conversation thinking, I don't want them to spend the time like talking about that at that point. Like, mom said to do this, let's just go forward, let's just do it, right? And in that way, they can just do their do my thing and and they can carry on. And I was shocked because I assumed wrongfully that the easiest thing would be like a groomation, like just go do the thing. But there are values set inside of these two very different people who I was a portal for. And I don't, you know, I don't want to bring them grief and they got plenty of rancorous things.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Yeah, they got plenty of things to argue about without that.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Like who's gonna keep my toys?

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Another good reason to write things down, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

That's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Well, that's one of the things we talk about in our class a lot or in in our conversations here, too, is the more conversation we can have around this, the more you can normalize this conversation, destigmatize it, the better it's gonna be in the end. The more likely that that's the what you wish is gonna happen will happen because that will have been normalized. It will have been talked about. And it's not something brand new that they have to go, whoa, wait, what do we do now? You know?

SPEAKER_02 28:34

Right. So or somebody's like, wait, did she say that? Or do I remember differently? Or do you know what I mean? But but there's been plenty of conversations so that they there will be like it'll it'll be a neural pathway.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Yeah, and it's written down. And it's written down.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

It's right.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

And and kept up to date, too. So so Liz, um, tell us, I guess, since we're getting close to the end of our time, I'd love to hear more about just kind of the extended, you've got other organizations that you're part of, the um Green Burial Council and some others, kind of the the bigger picture and and then how people can get involved. What what what you know your your call to action.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Okay. Um so yeah, Wake is uh, as I said, really very local, um, kind of hyper-local organization. We're very grassroots. Um, and we've been, you know, because so much of deathcare is sort of is circumscribed by laws, we like to say that you know, the publications we put out and things that we make available are really helpful for anybody in the state of Louisiana. And some stuff is general, but really, you know, we're we're pretty local. Um, but you know, as we worked on the the the issue of like what happens if you can't pay for um funeral expenses, which is the technical term for that is indigent death. Um, usually for most coroner's office and offices and medical examiner's offices, um, we realized that this was a crisis across the US and that nobody knew about it. And so um we joined forces with some a group of people in Boston in Massachusetts, um, who were working on this issue, thinking about it locally and knew about what was going on locally, and then a woman out in California and we created this um kind of a uh a working group called the Equitable Disposition Alliance, the EDA. And um we actually just launched a very fledgling, it's a very sort of first version of a um database where you can actually um for now you can look up, but we hope that we'll be people will kind of crowdsource this information of what happens if you can't afford disposition in your region. What happens to the body? How long is it held? Who holds it? Are there funds available for you? Are there not? Um, can a family reclaim? Do they cremate or do they bury? Um, it's called the um equitable disposition database and um or the regional equitable disposition database. And so that's kind of a fledgling project that we really hope will grow and people will be able to source this information because it changes from county to county across the US. I mean, what they do in New Orleans, forgot, for example, in Orleans Parish is totally different than what they do in Jefferson Parish, which is just the very next adjacent county over what we call them parishes here. Um, so that's really an important tool, and I really hope that everybody will start to look into what happens in their region when somebody can't afford private funeral services. Um, and then I think that there's a need to look at the funeral industry and see if we can start to advance some alternatives to this sort of private death care model, either extending the healthcare model so that it includes disposition, or I don't know, launching some more nonprofit or co-op funeral homes that can provide much more affordable solutions for people. Um so that's the kind of stuff I really love to see happen. And, you know, Wake, we work on these issues with partners across the country in addition to doing our work locally. Um, we hope everybody will get involved to the extent that they can in their communities because that's how we get this done. It's gonna be communities coming together and and sort of um advocating for change.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

We will definitely add that in the notes again and um you know the links to all that. That's great. What a wonderful database, what a great idea.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

It is. It is. And you know, last time you you you encouraged every listener to find out what goes on in our local communities with our indigen indigent bodies. And I did do, I reached out to the Denver coroner, great, didn't hear back for like six weeks, and they're like, we're really slammed with work, we don't like we, you know, they they really wouldn't talk to me.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

And but I did go down a little rabbit hole and was like, I recognize that they actually post the pictures of everybody who hasn't been claimed. And I was like, that's kind of both traumatic and good. I don't know. Like, yeah, you know, because you know, yeah, if you're missing somebody, you would go there to look for your person. Right. But if you can't pull your person out, that's where you go to look at your person, right? Like exactly. It's a really fascinating. And I was trying to reach out, but they were like, if you want to volunteer, and I'm like, oh my lord, I do not need another volunteer job.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

I mean, honestly, based on my experience, you're lucky to have spoken to anybody at all. Most of almost of all volunteers were completely ghosted. They are overburdened, they're overloaded, but they also don't want to take the lid off this. They they rightly understand that people are gonna be outraged when they understand what's going on with all these people. So, you know, we've got to start spreading. I mean, people have to know this is what's happening. Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

I should, I should reach out again. And, you know, I did it from a perspective of like curiosity because I'm a citizen and like what is happening? I'm a chaplain. Like that feels like, you know, I I want to something we should know responsibility. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Well, we should encourage everybody to um read, uh to look to check out what what Wake is doing and um the other things that um Liz has shared with us today, and that uh, you know, that as they say, there's so much that we can all do, and and it really does always as always come down to local um, you know, support, um, you know, mutual aid kind of ways of being being. It's all we can do and it's the best we can do. And so thank you once again for your inspiration. And I think uh very impressive. It's really uh we really look forward to more people understanding this and more people finding ways to take care of this. We'd love to hear from folks too. If you find out in your area or you find or if you want to connect with us or with Liz, please do get in touch. We'd love to kind of continue to expand this uh local, but needs to be we can support each other um everywhere, even though it uh it needs to be local.

SPEAKER_02 35:07

So And I would encourage people to just stay curious. Like I know that in the day-to-day world, people may not have these thoughts about what does happen to folks who can't afford a funeral. And but here we are having this conversation, and it behooves us as brothers and sisters across the board to be like, it matters.

SPEAKER_03 35:28

It does, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

What is going on? And maybe you give it 30 seconds thought, maybe you give it 30 minutes, but just stay curious.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

Or maybe, like Liz, you make it your life.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

You do, but I love that too, because one thing that this work has taught me is that there is no one way to do this. There these choices and preferences and predilections are so culturally inscribed. And it's almost like you start to see, oh, there's all these different ways of looking. I mean, it's always yes and, right? So there's all these different, there's there's room for everyone here, really. And, you know, even the funeral directors working in the belly of the beast, some of these people are wonderful, incredibly like gracious and and gifted at working with people in these really difficult times. So, like, there is really there's a lot going on all the all around you that you've been around you. Seeing you, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Yeah, we've met some really amazing funeral workers who are uh really trying to make a difference. So yeah, once you start reaching out and making this a part of your life, you'll find there's there's a community out there. So so thank you again so much, everybody. Thanks for being here with us.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Thank you both.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to Charles Easton, the composer of the original music you are listening to now.

SPEAKER_02 36:55

And of course, thanks to you, our audience, and all of our amazing guests. Please come back next week for another great episode. Share this with your friends, family, and community. We hope you will subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, and Twitter. And of course, if you have a good end of life story to share, please reach out. We're always eager to hear from you.