Wakil David Matthews (00:01.654)
Hey, hello. Welcome everybody. Really glad to have you back. We thought for this week's current events episode on Annalouiza and I would talk about an article that I was just recently sent from a woman named Cynthia Bourgeau, Dr. Cynthia Bourgeau. She's a theologian and scholar and brilliant writer. And it really helped me feel some kind of new level of hope amidst the despair of all the crazy turmoil going on in the world.

And so we thought we'd offer maybe to talk about that and maybe offer a little bit of that to all of you. So I wanted to welcome you. And I thought we'd just start discussing, maybe do some quotes from it and just think about what it is that we're all going through right now and in ways that we can maybe hold a little more hope.

Annalouiza Armendariz (00:50.304)
Well, I just want to also say that today is March 9th, 2026. If anybody in the future is going to listen to this. And right now it feels like the world is contracting with.

like an urgency to create instability so that people in power can stay in power. That's what it feels like to me. And I think that a lot of folks, and also in this day and age, there are a lot of people who are older, who are dying, who are beginning this end, you know, this passing through this threshold. There are new people coming into this world.

Wakil David Matthews (01:14.958)
Mm.

Wakil David Matthews (01:18.712)
Yeah, yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (01:37.344)
There are young people who are taking note of the chaos that others have created in their stead. And I just want to offer that if in general, feels like a very dismal time.

Wakil David Matthews (01:56.083)
Mm-hmm. You can, yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (01:57.97)
It can feel this way. And if we're going to be fully human, we can be living in paradox, which is in the exterior part of this ourselves, there is a lot of turmoil and we can cultivate an inner sanctuary. And so this article is interesting and what kill let's let's see how it can be a salve for us. 21st century errors.

Wakil David Matthews (02:05.304)
Yes.

Wakil David Matthews (02:15.276)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (02:21.144)
Yeah. Yeah.

Well, yeah, and actually that's, know, we'll get to that at the end, but that's really kind of, know, as, as human beings, seems like we are stuck in this cycle. had an episode a while back about the cycle of war and the cycle of conflict. And, and it's sort of like, we can't seem to grow out of that and we aren't trying. Well, in some cases it's, there's advantages to some small group of people's group of humans.

enough so that they'll keep that cycle going because it helps them, helps them stay in power. It helps them stay, you know, wealthy and whatever and, comfortable apparently, and, helps them not be afraid. That's kind of where we came to last time we talked about that was maybe this is how they keep from being afraid. But the results of that is that we are allowing the planet to the planet and the culture and the, and all of our siblings. And we're just watching them.

be degraded and harmed in many, ways over and over to a more more deeper and deeper extent. And she begins by speaking to the fact that there's a parallel, the analog of humans on the planet being somewhat like a cancer cell. And I thought the way she put it was interesting. we've had people argue about this. I think there is something to be said for the analog that cancer cells are, to quote her, cancer cells are driven

by one thing only, their own insatiable impulse to multiply until in the blindly aggressive pursuit of that impulse, they wind up destroying their host. And, you know, I'm dealing with cancer in my life with my dear wife and with, and others that I've known. And of course it's a huge problem going on everywhere. So when you look at that and look at the way it treats the human body, it's not hard to see that analogy.

Wakil David Matthews (04:20.29)
between the way cancer attacks and destroys the host body and the way we are attacking and destroying our host planet. that's one of the essences that we've, again, we've talked about how that affects us internally and how that affects our lives and the grief that we hold. But as you said, Ana Luisa, we also, in the midst of that, look for ways to stay in balance.

Annalouiza Armendariz (04:45.376)
And it just occurred to me, I think in the 80s and 90s, we all talked about how humans were parasitic, right? Like we were just like, like ticks, you know, and people would give a big pushback for that. But I do like the cancer analogy. And also, I just remembered the Selfish Gene, the Richard Dawkins book, right? How we are, we don't actually have choice. It's our genes that propel us into these choices into the future. And

Wakil David Matthews (04:51.576)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (05:05.618)
yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (05:13.56)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (05:15.56)
I mean, we don't understand so much about why we're in this place with conflict. And I'm just, you know, holding the thought that there is more to this, but it, it, our time requires us to be more curious and dig in deep to what it is that we're doing individually and collectively. And I have to, I personally feel sometimes like all those phone calls to.

Wakil David Matthews (05:38.2)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (05:44.021)
the people I'm supposed to call, all those letters, all those marches, they are for not. But she talks about this, right? That's like, where was it that she was said that collectively, once we get into that fullness of all of us kind of moving together ensemble, en français, we can make a change, but it requires a lot of us.

Wakil David Matthews (05:51.694)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (06:03.148)
You

Yeah. Yeah. And it really does. It really is kind of about an evolution of the humanity into a whole nother type of species almost. And that's the other thing she talks about. And she quotes Teilhard in speaking to the fact that evolutionarily, if you look at the large picture, you know, we're a tiny little speck in that picture. But evolutionarily, species come and go. Different organizational

life comes and goes and often if we look back at the billions of years of the planet Earth, there's been, you know, things have hit the Earth and destroyed everything on the planet, but things have come back after that and different species have come out. And she actually speaks to the fact that if you look at that, that they seem to come back kind of where they go away for a while, but they come back kind of where they came back.

Annalouiza Armendariz (06:55.296)
That's right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (07:02.41)
They left off different and stronger. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (07:06.518)
Yeah, yeah. so perhaps we can hold that as part of it, you know, it's part of the kind of the promise. You know, one of the promises that she spoke about that in a way we can look at, there is finally a place she says, from that place of recognition that things something will come back. There's a bit of solid ground that we can put our feet on. She quotes T.S. Eliot.

I rejoice having to construct something upon which to rejoice. So we're constructing that, or we're holding that, I guess, that sense. So really the only, and what you said earlier about, it's going to take a critical mass of change, which may depend upon everything we know going away. And there's a beautiful book, Emergent Strategies, which kind of

Annalouiza Armendariz (07:55.552)
That's right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (07:59.979)
That's right.

Wakil David Matthews (08:01.708)
looks at how as organizations on the planet, as groups, as communities, sometimes the only way through is to let what you have go away entirely and allow something else to emerge.

Annalouiza Armendariz (08:13.15)
That's right. And there's two parts of that that I really love. It's like you allow things to just kind of settle into its own death, its own dying doneness, you know, quietness, and kind of sifting into ideas and hearts and minds of people and resurfacing after being composted. Like this could be for any number of organisms. But it also

Wakil David Matthews (08:24.034)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (08:33.614)
Right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (08:41.084)
I was thinking about how we get so attached to the notion that we are doing this 100 % correctly every single time. And we like slam into walls, we get hurt, we like get broken, but we get up and we still wanna try to it the same way. And it just made me think about our interview recently with somebody who said that...

Wakil David Matthews (08:49.326)
You all right?

Annalouiza Armendariz (09:04.896)
When families go through the death of a parent or both parents, 61 % of those siblings will not be talking to each other after that. And it was such an I've thought about it all week since that interview. And I come back to this like if we're going to continue to do the same thing over and over again and we don't see us letting go of these attachments, letting death move us.

Wakil David Matthews (09:10.584)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (09:16.706)
Wow, yeah, that was incredible.

Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (09:34.45)
into nothingness or like the simplest part of ourselves. It's we're going to keep doing the same thing over and over again.

Wakil David Matthews (09:37.635)
you

Wakil David Matthews (09:43.618)
Yeah, yeah, it's really true. It's true, you on the micro, less macro scale, maybe as we're thinking about it right now, kind of we're looking at the macro, but in, know, in all of our organizational connections, all of our community connections, and like our spiritual growth, our spiritual organizations, we see it over and over again, a sense that we have to hold on to the past. We have to say the same things everybody else never said. We have to honor the founders. And that's nothing wrong with that.

Annalouiza Armendariz (09:58.431)
right

Annalouiza Armendariz (10:06.644)
Yes

Wakil David Matthews (10:13.474)
But when you honor the founders to the extent that you no longer are growing, no longer allowing emergence to happen and new learning and new understandings to happen, you've basically died. You've given up, you know? And I think that's, in a way, what she speaks to in this article is that that's maybe where we are as a culture right now is that we've gone to the extent where we can't go any further and that it's obviously, as we look around, it's unsustainable.

Annalouiza Armendariz (10:17.376)
That's right.

Wakil David Matthews (10:42.574)
And so at some point, the earth is, she speaks to the point that the earth itself is, is going to take care of itself, you know, and that may result, that may mean that there is a change that may even be catastrophic for on our level of things for humanity. Yeah. Yeah. But I think one of the things she speaks to and why we can hold this little spark of hope is that there is sort of this, um,

Annalouiza Armendariz (10:52.158)
That's right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (10:59.296)
for humanity or for organisms. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (11:13.174)
And this is theological in a way, the sense that there is a spark. And she says, from deep within the geosphere, there's still that restless spirit drawing it onward to manifest new forms and innovations. So holding that, that's kind of this place of hope that I think this particular article brings to me.

Annalouiza Armendariz (11:35.263)
Yeah, that's interesting. I wonder if there's a place to consider for all the folks out there who are atheist or non-believers or spiritual without really like, you know, when we speak of spiritual, the spark, I don't know that it shuns non-traditional spiritual folks out of that. I think it's that.

Wakil David Matthews (11:46.531)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (12:01.062)
no.

Annalouiza Armendariz (12:04.38)
urgency to continue. It's that, you know, that reptile brain, it's the selfish gene. It's that we will move forward no matter how we get there, right? So it's the how do we choose to move forward is the piece that I'm very interested in these days. And as well, Keel knows, I spent a lot of time in my morning prayers, it's like,

Wakil David Matthews (12:07.736)
Yeah, yeah, protection.

Wakil David Matthews (12:15.212)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (12:22.254)
Mm-hmm.

Annalouiza Armendariz (12:27.206)
asking to notice my attachments to whatever, like if I'm attached to certain shoes or I'm attached to a certain walk or because it is about letting cycles of life, meaning a birth and a death circle through, circulate through, move through, right? And I want to press on and say like death is part of every aspect of our lives. It's

Wakil David Matthews (12:30.754)
Yeah. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (12:46.158)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (12:51.886)
Absolutely.

Annalouiza Armendariz (12:52.446)
You know, we can die to a philosophy that we once held so true that we would die on on a mountain with us. No, we sometimes we outgrow things and it's OK to look and say, that is no longer of service. That, you know, image of God is so little like I need to get to know God in a different way or the beloved or that song is suddenly just like the lyrics are not speaking to my heart any longer. I can't sing in them anymore.

Wakil David Matthews (12:57.944)
You

Wakil David Matthews (13:07.245)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (13:19.362)
Yeah, yeah, it's very, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's actually more than okay. I think it's actually healthy. It's important. You know, if we're going to continue to grow, we spoke to somebody recently who we recognized the way they were speaking that they were talking about the, that one, that really big time in your life when everything seems to no longer make sense, you know, the dark night of the soul as,

Annalouiza Armendariz (13:20.882)
All these are small deaths and it's okay. It's okay to just notice them and.

That's right.

Wakil David Matthews (13:47.886)
St. John of the Cross spoke about, that there's this sense that, wow, all these practices, all these things that I grounded myself in no longer hold me. I'm floating. I'm falling. to actually embrace that and to recognize that as a divine gift or an ex-amazing, a gift from the planet or a gift from life that, wow, you

Annalouiza Armendariz (14:00.704)
That's right. I'm lost. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (14:15.904)
I can actually find something new down here in the mud.

Annalouiza Armendariz (14:16.04)
Yeah. It's life. Like we're OK with babies growing up to be teenagers, young adults, mothers, fathers, older people dead, right? Like there is a trajectory. So why don't we allow, you know, concepts of self, you know, beliefs in the world, beliefs and something to like also have a trajectory of growth. And when it's not growing, it probably needs to die or shift.

Wakil David Matthews (14:27.148)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (14:38.541)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (14:42.23)
Yeah, yeah, because because we see it, right? We see the evidence of it. We see the evidence of it in what's going on around us right now in the culture and in the communities. But we also see the evidence of it in just our organizations when they start to just become less relevant and we and they are a bunch of old people going and no young people going anymore. That's one, you know, one indication of it is sort of become stagnant. And if you can't completely, if you can't allow that and actually embrace that sense of

Annalouiza Armendariz (14:48.8)
That's right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (15:01.6)
That's

Wakil David Matthews (15:12.302)
This is all not making sense anymore. Then you become stagnant and you quit being dynamic and growing and quit being alive, really.

Annalouiza Armendariz (15:18.975)
Right.

So in that moment, I would hope that people could recognize that this is a death. And I'm OK with this death. I'm

Wakil David Matthews (15:27.98)
Yeah. Yeah. And even ritualize it. Have fun with it.

Annalouiza Armendariz (15:32.801)
have fun or mourn it, weep it, grieve the loss of what you thought you would become that you never got to achieve and say that just wasn't a good plan. I'm shifting and doing it a different way. But I think that that is a, you know, just saying that a lot, I just realized like there's so much shame in not, in the deaths that go on around us and the who we thought we'd be and who we thought our relationships would be like.

Wakil David Matthews (15:35.96)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (15:40.995)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (15:45.912)
Mm-hmm.

Wakil David Matthews (15:53.912)
Right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (16:00.255)
This is a place to say that was a death. It needs to be honored and I can move on.

Wakil David Matthews (16:06.23)
Yeah, yeah. And the way I move on is in the acceptance and in the celebration or the gratitude and the gathering of my belief as my people to do that with me. Yeah. So you're right on the local organizational or community scale. That's something that's happening every day and that can be embraced and that as

Annalouiza Armendariz (16:19.52)
That's right.

Wakil David Matthews (16:33.376)
our audience as ourselves, people who can hold that sense or understand that, to be the ones maybe that lift that up, that say, well, you know, maybe it's not the end of the world that our community is no longer growing. Maybe we need to think about how we might emerge into something new. And maybe that requires us to let go entirely and to let it just be.

something and let it go all together and start something else or start or not start something else, right? You know,

Annalouiza Armendariz (17:04.01)
Right. Or yeah, it's just, it's something else. I'm going to say I'm more in Sears going away. I grew up with Sears. Like it's it right down the road and it's gone. And I noticed when it left because I was like, when am I going to get my tires? You know, where do I go get my tires? Because and it it annoyed me. And and it was sad that my formative years spent at shopping at Sears. That was it. It was gone. And so.

Wakil David Matthews (17:10.07)
Sears, yeah. Yeah, me too. Right down the road from me. Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (17:31.746)
Wow, wow, that's such a great example of, you know, right now what's going on, right? Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (17:37.013)
That's right. You know, I, I just want to press people to think about the many, the myriad of deaths that occur on a daily basis around us and the noticing. again, I go back to that gentleman I met, you know, last year who said, I don't, I don't have any connection with death. I don't have any deaths whatsoever. And when I pointed out that indeed, like there were dead things around us, he's like, I never thought about that. Never thought about that.

Wakil David Matthews (18:00.534)
Yeah, hey, it's the fall. It's the autumn. Everything's dying.

Annalouiza Armendariz (18:06.938)
And it was interesting because this morning I had to drive somewhere and a big raccoon got hit on the road. I was, I always mourn the loss of our, our little kin. So I I took the time, I watched his car swerve to not hit it again. And I was wondering, did they say, that is a dead raccoon. I'm so sad for my dead raccoon. I called the city to have him picked up.

because it matters to me that I don't want his little his or her little body to just be like smushed up all day long. But it occurred to me like hundreds of people have gone by down this road. How many of them took the time to witness?

Wakil David Matthews (18:37.934)
Yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (18:48.878)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (18:52.082)
I say little prayer of goodbyes and do something to like help the situation, right? know we need to like take those moments and I mean, it takes three seconds. Like there's a death.

Wakil David Matthews (18:58.572)
Yeah, probably not that many.

Wakil David Matthews (19:06.062)
Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's important. And if we bring this back out to the scale of the planet and what we're watching happen, it's again, it's the same thing. know, how many people are just and, you know, again, no judgment. It's totally normal to just get numb. Right. And just say, I can't look at this anymore. I'm going to quit watching the news. I'm going to I'm going to ignore it. I'm going to I'm not going to go march. I'm not going to call anybody. You know, it's a very, very normal response and a very

Annalouiza Armendariz (19:13.984)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (19:27.497)
right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (19:31.145)
That's right.

Wakil David Matthews (19:34.382)
And if that's the response, totally do it. You know, it's okay. And don't, you know, I'm not, don't want anybody to start feeling like I should be doing more. But the point is that as, as those of us who can anyway, and as you can to notice and to take in the sense of, yeah, it is horrible. And I can hold that and I can also wish for, hope for, and work toward a, an evolution.

Annalouiza Armendariz (19:36.616)
It's okay.

Annalouiza Armendariz (20:01.44)
That's right.

Wakil David Matthews (20:04.31)
and in emergence and what does that look like for you personally? And think about it for you personally. What does it look like? And in the articles she talks about, I just realized that my mouse fell on the floor.

Annalouiza Armendariz (20:18.4)
no, the mouse!

Wakil David Matthews (20:28.078)
We'll edit that part out. Or not, know, whatever. Yeah. So anyway, you know, in her articles, she speaks to how she approaches that. And I think that's, I think it was very inspiring to me to read, you know, to think about, okay, things are constantly changing in our world. watching a lot of little deaths happen.

Annalouiza Armendariz (20:28.262)
you're mute. there you are.

No.

Wakil David Matthews (20:53.272)
And we're watching really a much larger one. In this case, what we're talking about here is this kind of macro world falling apart around us, right? But when it does, what do we do? What is our part to create the new evolutionary form that's going to come forward from that? She noted that when you look at history, look at macro history, millions of years of history on the Earth, things

seem to after a pause or after a disaster, they seem to spring forth again all over the planet, right? And so in a way we're kind of holding that belief that we if we can hold truth, she quotes Teilhard again, or no, she quotes, yeah, Teilhard saying, truth only has to appear once in one single mind for it to be impossible for anything ever to prevent it from spreading universally and setting everything else ablaze.

And I love that, that we then that gives us something to hold, you know, no matter how bad it is, we can hold that sense that we are a part of this long arc and that really, you know, we're called what we're called on if we can, if we can do this and when we can do this. And I guess I would say if and when, because as we spoke to earlier, you know, it's not nobody's not everybody's can be able to handle this. But if are part of the continuing evolution of the species, if you will.

is just to believe that there's that something more can happen and to hopefully grow beyond this kind of adolescent stage of humanity, you know, where we have to be afraid and we have to support and we have to fight for our space and there's not enough. And then hopefully then things will finally change. And so I guess that's what we do every day, you know.

She says, to that hope and the work entailed to bring it into reality, she will gladly dedicate the remaining years of her life. It's the only thing I can do, she says. And then my heart tells me it will not go for nothing. So I think that's, for me, that's the sense that I try to hold. How can we, what can we do? We can just be the best we can be and hopefully plant seeds for whatever will come up after.

Wakil David Matthews (23:19.064)
when after it all falls apart. Right. That makes sense or not. Yeah. Yeah. But no, not.

Annalouiza Armendariz (23:23.808)
I don't know. find out. No. Yes. Well, if this isn't for some people, it'll be for others. It's okay. You know, we're not. That's all right. So, yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (23:33.836)
Yeah, yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (23:37.856)
Yeah, so I just, Anubhisho, do you have a practice yourself that you would recommend people, that people think about? I mean, we talked about it, I guess, just the willingness to notice. I just feel like I want to take another step if there is another step.

Annalouiza Armendariz (23:57.525)
Yeah, just I don't want to talk too much longer. I feel like it's a it's a lot of words for kind of a creed that humanity must kind of access for themselves. But my first piece is, you know, touch your heart. Just touch your heart to have a kinesthetic, somatic experience with grief, with sadness, with a loss, you know. And the other piece is like, go outside.

Wakil David Matthews (24:01.612)
Yeah, we've kind of talked.

Wakil David Matthews (24:10.593)
Okay, yeah.

Wakil David Matthews (24:19.0)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (24:26.4)
just go outside like, you know.

Wakil David Matthews (24:26.488)
Yeah.

Annalouiza Armendariz (24:31.338)
There are others around us, trees, dandelions, rabbits, fox. They're all trying their best they can. They show up every day too. And they're all just doing the same as we are. So we're not alone and we need some sunshine to keep us going.

Wakil David Matthews (24:49.26)
Yeah, yeah. And again, that's just sort of the, we can look to nature always as a way to remember that spark. And I love it when I walk in the woods, sometimes I see a dead tree or a stump, it's got a flower growing out of it, you know, it's like, yeah, that's what we're talking about here. Something will emerge. So we wish you all love and compassion and heart and thank you for.

Annalouiza Armendariz (25:04.128)
That's right.

Annalouiza Armendariz (25:08.032)
That's right.

Wakil David Matthews (25:18.594)
watching and participating and being maybe being one of those people who can hold both the pain and recognize the pain and the joy and work toward planting seeds for whatever will come next, whatever will emerge. So blessings and adios.

Annalouiza Armendariz (25:26.804)
and enjoy.

Annalouiza Armendariz (25:33.3)
right. Adios.

Wakil David Matthews (25:42.446)
Oops, let me do this, stop, okay.