SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hey Sam. Have you ever thought about what dreams reveal about death and grief? Even the soul, maybe? In this episode, we get the chance to talk to uh and explore really an fascinating connection between dreams and the experience of lost and death. Many people report vivid dreaming after someone died, but we might wonder what those dreams actually mean. Are they simply the mind processing grief? Or could they offer something deeper?

SPEAKER_00 0:32

I think they probably offer something deeper with my claim and the topic of joined by dream worker and facility. Or a really well-rounded uh open top of quality and dreams about the phone. And how we've been working with our own dreams that are always welcome. If you ever had a dream of wonder or wonderful dreams and carry deeper meaning during times of loss, especially this conversation hopefully offers a thoughtful place to begin. So welcome and stay tuned. Stay tuned.

SPEAKER_04 1:40

Welcome everyone. Thanks for coming back and sitting with us in our conversations. I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Mendares. On today's episode, we are looking forward to speaking with Lynn Diagonales. Lynn is a dream worker, improviser, and facilitator currently based in Taos, New Mexico. Lynn has spent the last 13 years devoted to the dream world, exploring a wide range of dream work practices and experimenting with grounding the dreamworks, the dream world's teachings through trial and error, embodiment, expressive arts, and recently birth work.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

I'm uh the Reverend Wakil David Matthews. It's really great to be with you all today and really happy to have Lynn with us. Lynn's uh life work has been shaped by many threads, including theatrical exploration, depth psychology, two very prevalent arenas of their home city in Buenos Aires, Argentina, where the dreamy lilac waters of the Colquimalu Mayu or uh Rio de la Playa Plata, Rio de la Plata have long whispered their own medicine. I love that. That's very poetic. Very well said. Yeah. So very glad to have you. Thank you for coming and visiting with us today. We um we kind of like to start the show every time with asking about people about where they first uh became aware of death in their journey.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

So thank you very much for having me here. I'm very honored. Um I guess I wanted to reflect on these questions. And the first thing that came to mind was my grandfather in my backyard um showing me kind of the different currents of the wind and the different birds that were around me, and telling me, um, matter of fact, that he when he dies is gonna be a hummingbird. And I'm around three years old. And I I immediately like take this to heart, like, okay, like this is important information. You know, that's um in my mind, I didn't really know, like I I suspected death, you know. It was like that's something that's around, but nobody talked about it. And so he was kind of a mystical figure for me and was able to name it when no one else around me was um even mentioning it. So that really like landed for me as like, okay, this will happen, and that's how I will be able to contact you or one of the ways, right?

SPEAKER_04 4:26

Beautiful. Oh, at three. Oh yeah, divinely touched. I really love that.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Yeah, what a wonderful grandfather.

SPEAKER_04 4:33

Yes. If we I wish we could all be good grandfathers and good grandmothers. So, Lynn, as your life proceeded, can you tell us the thread of how death impacted the story of who you are today and and what it brought you to?

SPEAKER_03 4:50

Yeah, I would say it really, really shaped me. And the death that shaped me uh unsurprisingly was my grandfather's death that happened a couple of months after that statement. Um so what shaped me about it was that you know, we had this very deep connection. Um, like Maledoma Somme says, like the bond between grandson or granddaughter and grandfather is very potent because it's kind of like they're both, well, uh the grandchild just came back from source and grandfather is going back. So there's like a like a wise, like wise men meeting type of feeling. And I definitely felt that with my grandfather in a way that I didn't feel with anybody else. Um, like kind of this knowing. And the day before he died, which was very unexpected, um, he died of a heart attack, and he had been visiting, and I was very upset that he had left, um, but like overly upset that he had just gone back um three hours away where he lived. And so later that day, or maybe it was the next day, I was like looking at the clouds, and I felt distinctly, the sky was like this meeting point for us, um, because he was a pilot as well. I felt distinctly like something's wrong, something's happening, um he's he's going, like, you know, he's ascending, or you know, he's not in the physical anymore in that way. And I told my grandma, and you know, I was very very upset, and she was like kind of the same way that people talk about dreams to children sometimes, like it was ch no, no, like that's just you know, that's just your imagination. And then lo and behold, the next day, um, they're trying to get a hold of him, trying to get a hold of him, and then they they end up um finding out that he died. Um and they wait a few days to tell me. And because I was so young, I wasn't like invited to any funeral or anything. So I kind of like stay behind while they go deal with that, like kind of like as a chore, not so much as like a felt ritual. I mean, I also think they were very shocked. Um but to me that like was a clear divide between my felt sense of what needed to happen um around death or like the importance of that and the opening that I felt inside of me in relationship to this passing and uh just how not uh actualized that was in the waking world, or at least you know, in that time in my family. Um, so that really shaped me. It really made me turn over to um the world beyond the world and not believe that this waking world was fully real or true, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Yeah, beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 8:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

That's that's yeah, what a great story. Um well tell it, tell us some more about your work now, the dream work that you're doing, and maybe how it relates to you know that journey that you've taken. But tell us some stories, basically.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

Yeah, so I guess in feeling this disconnect, um I turned to my dreams as sources of guidance and as truth, um, especially because they were so um kind of like shunned upon or like that is not real. And so I was very much suspecting of that and saying it how is that not a reality or a way that um we connect with the divine? Um and I I was raised very like I I call it compulsory atheist. So, you know, it was like wrong to speak about spirit or God, um, or to think that there was life beyond death, or that you know, spirit transcended that portal.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:08

Um, and I felt that so deeply because there was a way in which I felt um compelled to pray to my grandfather and to be in devotion to his memory and to um his teachings and to know that that could continue. Um and I was very like, yeah, it was a strong conviction that I had, um, but very private one as well. So um my dreams would often remind me of this um like the the realness, the tangi the tangibility of that connection. Um and also having birds, you know, sticking them around, having them appear in certain moments, and then the world of the symbolic, like tying the dreams with the waking, uh creating a stronger bridge, um and and doing little tiny actions as ridiculous as they may be sometimes to honor those spaces inside of us or in a different realm. Um and and yeah, I I like the most potent moments that I had growing up were when those two worlds would touch. Um yeah. And I guess I would also want to tell how because I didn't know him um like on a factual level that well, my grandfather, I've been kind of feeling like I've been finding clues on who he was um by just living my life and realizing, you know, how um joined I really am with his spirit and you know the the path that I've taken. Then for example, I've gone to a lot of um I guess like quests or retreats in relationship to nature and kind of like I'm I'm a city person. And then I I I ended up going deep into like nature contemplation, and um then my mom reveals to me that your grandfather was like that, you know? Like he used to go to the Pachamama retreats and uh come singing the songs, like the the kind of llama foundation prayer songs and gratitude at the meals, and and um that was kind of odd in my family, and no one really understood well what that was about, and um yeah, and also his connection to um this area that I find myself in that I wouldn't have you know logically brought myself here, but my dreams really brought me here, and then also I changed my name when I was around 21 because my dreams gave me this new name, and years later I see a video, um, because my parents did a lot of home videos that is around the time of my last uh physical encounters with my grandfather, and he calls me by that name.

unknown 12:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 12:13

What? What? I know it's it's crazy. I had to like stop the video and be like, wait a second. So is it is it Lynn that he called you? Yeah, Lynn. So he no no one really called me that. Um so it was very strange to see that connecting, connecting back. Yeah. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Very strange and beautiful. Yeah. I love that. I I was when you said the um how what what what did you use the word for atheist?

SPEAKER_04 12:44

Uh uh compulsory.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Compulsory atheist, yeah. Yeah. Or fundamentalists. I always think that we have atheists can be fundamentalists. I I have friends who are fundamentalist atheists, and basically everybody else is uh what is my I think my uh mother-in-law once said, I thought I I thought this person was smart, but it turns out they believe in God.

SPEAKER_04 13:10

Well, yeah, so that could be I think my ex-mother-in-law said the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Yeah. Yeah. So that was a great line. Thank you for that. But great stories. I really appreciate that. Um and I we want to, you know, I would love to hear more about the dream work you're doing. So but um yeah, there's more stories you want to talk about that, or we can go to our next question too.

SPEAKER_03 13:31

For sure, yeah. Well, I guess a lot of my um dream work is based on this continuous investigation that I have with myself primarily. Um, so it was the the dreams were getting so strong that I that I realized, you know, can't ignore them anymore, or I have to give them like a more central um place in my life. And how do I how do I go about doing that? And um in a way that I found was to act on them and to really commit to even if I didn't know why I dream had come to me to do like a single action, um, and sometimes like big actions, um, like you know, coming to New Mexico was one of them. Um yeah, and then also studying birth work because I was just attending so many births and even births that I was um you know birthing and I was just like I I need to I need to learn this, like I need to act on this so that it it creates that reciprocity with the dream world of like you're you're listening. Okay, you're listening. There's something here, yeah. Um yeah, and so I I do I do appreciate um being like a forever student, so I'm always trying to learn more and find different ways to do things, and one of those ways has been kind of getting a little bit more out of the analytical into the body, yeah. And acting out scenes from dreams um and collaborating with others, knowing that our dreams have also information and messages for others.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

So, do you work with folks at the end of life with their dream work?

SPEAKER_04 15:15

I haven't yet, but I would love. Oh, so that's what I was wondering. That's what I I thought you did.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Well, we're gonna get her there.

SPEAKER_04 15:23

Yeah. Well, and actually, I was just trying to find this tribe, but years and years ago, about maybe about 20 years ago, I read uh an article about a tribe, and I think I want to say it's like Papua New Guinea, uh Indonesia area, and they prioritized languaging dream work as a fundamental aspect of each and every day's hum human experience. And so they, when they get up and they are having breakfast, they always ask the children what about their dreams. And also a little kind of strangely hard because if kids don't have dreams, there's something wrong. Like they really encourage that something has to be said. But it's so funny because I I think I read that before I had kids. And I have studied Jungyin dream work and all kinds of dreams, lucid dreaming. I have like dug deep into this as a lifelong learner myself. And what I realize now is uh my kids have grown up being asked, like, did you dream what was a dream about? What did it make you feel? But I really I am very curious about the action portion of this because I've never heard this.

SPEAKER_03 16:37

Well, I really um consolidated some of my learning about this uh from my teacher, Robert Moss. Oh yeah. I think I've taken a class with Robert Moss about Daily Tarot. Oh wow, yes. Yeah, he's very big on synchronicity and marketing, you know. Yeah. Yeah. So um by By My Dreams, really, is how I how I met him for the first time and then um found him online and I was like, this is the guy from my dreams, you know? Um he's an amazing dream historian and just yeah, incredible teacher. Um and I I have really taken to heart this idea that like the reciprocity piece with the dreams, like just letting them know that you're listening in a tangible way. Um say, you know, you dream with a color and then you decide to wear it. Or, you know, you have like a a poem in your mind or in your tongue, as I like to say, when you wake up and then you write it down and put in a sticky note, you know, in your planner. Um things like that that just create more um like a stronger of a web and and just more of a dialogue around certain themes in your life, um, as well as, for example, like asking questions, um, you know, writing down a question before you fall asleep and then committing to act on whatever uh messages.

SPEAKER_04 18:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 18:11

Yeah, I do think that that's that has been pretty pretty life-changing to me because sometimes I I can get, you know, behind on my on my dreams, like they're just like, oh, it's all this, all this, and I don't know which you know which action to take, but yes, um, I've found that the smallest, you know, action to me the most sustainable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:35

Well, I will tie this back to, you know, end of life because I have been with people who either have uh I mean, I guess the the the industrial medical industry calls this hallucinations, but I feel like it's like liminal spaces that are kind of dream world-like. And folks at the end of life sometimes talk about seeing ancestors or seeing certain things that are not in the space, and people are like, oh, it's just a hallucination, they're just you know, whatever. But I feel like it's almost like our human brain force us into a dream state to open up that portal into our new birth, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:22

Um, so I I love the idea of practicing. Like I like to practice leaving my body if I get, you know, killed. I walk down the street and pretend I got hit by a bus. And like, what does it feel like to just release, right? And so, you know, it's just like dreams. How do we uh make offerings to them and acknowledge that their presence is very real and so incredibly important to our own human experience? So, Lynn, I gotta dig this.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

Yeah, really, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love it. It's it's really about setting that intention and making that a part of your life every day. It just is you know, because it is a good part of our lives, is spent sleeping and dreaming and to uh to ignore that or leave it alone or you know, uh yeah, my my yeah, just just to pay attention to it is I love that I've heard that too um of indigenous tribes who wake up in the morning and sit in a circle and tell each other their dreams. Um and and we don't do that as much in this crazy culture where we have to run out and feed the cat.

SPEAKER_04 20:26

But although I will say, uh, I have a friend every single morning we text each other and it's the same thing. How are you doing? How was your sleep? Did you dream? And we always like share dreams. So I was been thinking about it. I need to go back and like grab all my dreams that I've written down. Uh and then my daughter will wake up and I'll say, like, hey, so tell me your dreams.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Yeah, yeah, good, good. Yeah, it's a good, good, good way to set that intention and get that, make that part of our lives. So thank you then for reminding us about that.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

Absolutely. I do think that death and dreaming is very connected. I mean, also sleeping, like just the act of surrendering it into a different state. And um, you know, I think there's many, many cultures that have priced dreaming for that reason. If just um, we're not just this, you know, right corporal. Yeah. Right. So it's it's really incredible. And also lucid dreaming, just the the feeling of being able to be awake to that reality.

SPEAKER_04 21:28

Yes. Ugh, it's amazing. You know, it's interesting because I took this is like 20, 24 years ago, I was taking a class and it was um, it was kind of a biblical, it was through a church, but they were trying to open up this like conversation around dream work and Christianity. And it did more than that. It was a it was an excellent class that I took. And I remember the the the initial Time we spent was talking about how early on dream work was one of the ways that God, the divine Yahweh, spoke to people. But there when one of the translations, I think it was the St. James, he had not been happy with his dreams and had a lot of nightmares. And so he discounted dream work as a potential avenue for God to speak to them. So he actually did not put that in the Bible. And so, you know, I don't, I I never had, you know, I never chose to go and research it and see if it showed up in the Aramaic Bible as dreaming is, you know, a conversation with the divine source. And I don't discount that it, you know, somebody had a bad dream and decided that's gotta be from the devil. Because, you know, that's kind of like it's it's all this intuitiveness that that has sparked the fear of, you know, the old testament like divination and you know, you know, trying to figure stuff out. Dreams are trying, are trying to divine what is the what what is going on, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:09

Uh-huh. Yeah, and I do think everybody has different dreaming talents. Um like I know a lot of people, including my dad, who are very gifted at just like the dead come to them. You know, they just like knock on the dream door every single night. It's like, I need to tell you something, I need to, you know, repair something here, or uh, you know, some warning. Um, and some people are like really frequent flyers or you know, shape shifters, or so so I I do think we all have our own ways that we are and express and have learned um to navigate that world as well. And um, yeah, sometimes it can be it can be overwhelming and we need to have like, you know, some intentionality, some protection in place, and also trust, you know, in that they are ultimately like for our own good, even if it's a quote unquote bad dream, like there's something in the yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

So you're working with people on and their dreams, I assume that's part of your work. Um do you do you how does that look when you're working with somebody? What is the what are the kind of process you go through as people to understand or help them understand their dreams?

SPEAKER_03 24:27

Well, we you know create a a space in which the dream world feels safe to be recognized and honored. And it's you know, um I I work both one-on-one and also in a group. And we we kind of help the dream feel corded enough to come out and and not like tell me what this is about, you know. So so so by you know, the senses and questions that are that are kind of geared to surround the dream, uh, we start opening up the field of what that could be and and holding multiple perspectives at once of of that. So in a way, expanding and letting it, you know, breathe more. Um and then also trying to find a creative action uh that the person can take in their daily lives or um or making some art in the moment, whether it's with the with the body or you know, painting, drawing, writing, um, weaving, I think is also very magical to do with dreams. Um I'm very interested in this intersection also with theater, and that's what I do more in a group. We like explore, you know, the liminal space of the stage and bring in uh dream work there.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Nice, really nice.

SPEAKER_04 25:54

Well, Keel, do you remember we did this in seminary?

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Yeah, I was thinking about that.

SPEAKER_04 26:00

Yeah, we had dream work as a collective that somebody got to pick their dream, and then we all were theater parts to that dream.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Yeah, yeah. That's powerful. Yeah, we we've been I've been doing um with my wife some interplay, which is a you know, it's kind of a a way of um improvising music, dance, movement, um, storytelling, um, which I've had that come up where people say, Well, this is a dream I've had. Let's let's play this together, let's do this together. So I love that that you're bringing that in as a way to just like allow ourselves to just be really to to allow our creativity to um honor the the work that our dreams doing are doing for us. That's beautiful.

unknown 26:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:46

Lynn, have you ever heard of Toko Pa? Yes, actually. I've taken two of her classes.

SPEAKER_03 26:53

I love her dancing with the dream method of just like honing in the sensations that I'm bringing, you know.

SPEAKER_04 27:01

Yes. And I think that's what I have leaned into when uh my kids tell me like they had a hard dream, and I'll get all the details, but then I'll ask them where in your body does it feel like it's kind of moving or stuck, and they'll usually stop and and tell me. And and then we just like try to like you know, give it a tend to it.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:20

And you know, what do you need? I'm here watching you, I'm here looking at you. We're here in community. So yeah, Tokopa was uh another one that I've just God, I can't believe I've taken so many dream classes. I love dreaming. I love dreaming. I have been a lifelong insomniac. And in spite of that, I have always had a very active dream. I have journals here from, and those I haven't put away, Joaquil. All my dream journals have not have not been burned, but I keep I keep my dream journals because I feel like there have been some that have been premonitions or prescient. And I see, and when it's happening to me, I'm like, that dream happened to me. I'm gonna go read it again.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:02

And so I can I can see that. So that's cool. There's a lot of really cool things with dreams.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Yeah, yeah. What a great conversation to have. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

I also wanted to say that, you know, um, in response to what you brought before, Anna Luisa, the the state before dying or or active dying that people, you know, report or what people say is hallucinations. Um, I do think that there it would be really amazing to do dream work in that or like, you know, have those visions be honored by your community, your family, and also maybe establish some places of where to meet in the you know, in the liminole with your loved ones. Yeah. I think that's a it's a great um time to kind of establish some some.

SPEAKER_04 28:52

That's a great idea, actually. And you know, it comes to mind um maybe about eight months ago, I started working with I do spiritual direction work as well. And someone came to me and didn't really want spiritual direction in kind of the ways Joaquila and I work, yet he really did want to talk about his dreams. And he was an elderly man, and he started telling me all these things that had happened. He's like, I've never told anybody of these things, but I feel like there were some mystical occurrences that happened in my life. And I was always too ashamed to like share these because people it's like the few times I told my wife she thought I was nuts.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:35

And so, but what we did for three of those sessions is we we just talked about his dreams and who was showing up and how his clothes, he's like, I used to feel like my clothes were only half like like they weren't ironed or they weren't buttoned up. And he's like, I'm seeing myself robed with things that are like really well put together. And in his head, in his process, he was like, I'm getting close to leaving. Like I can, I can sense that. And it was really wonderful to talk to him. So, yes, you're right. It is, it is this goes back to our ghost conversation, flecule. Right. That, you know, how to start talking about death is like, hey, if you come back as a ghost, how do you think you want to attract my attention? Right, right. So if you come back, if you can come back as a dream, what will be the the the poem that will come from this visual, right?

SPEAKER_03 30:33

Yeah, like how will I recognize you?

SPEAKER_04 30:35

Yeah, I'm gonna start writing about those because I think that is very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Yeah, it's great. You inspired us as always.

SPEAKER_04 30:42

Yes, thank you, Lynn.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

Yeah, so we always always want to find out about what what challenges you in that work as far as when you're working with people, is there anything that um that is hard, that's difficult, or that are challenges that come up?

SPEAKER_03 30:58

Yeah, I think that when there's when there's very challenging dreams that are confronting about, you know, the the scary things or the things that people are scared of and that are like I don't want to look at that. Um that can be challenging because you maybe can like sometimes hold it in a sacred space and then what happens? So sometimes that in a way can get dropped in in their lives, I find. I mean in my life too, when I'm like in touch with something really potent and intense, it's hard to feel like I can take that through my mundane life or that that can come with me, even though it's with me still. So there's something about um the the bridge, the integration that to me it has like the scenic obstacle, what's what I call the scenic obstacle of the the limitation, right? Of uh time coming in, of mortality and our physical bodies and the ways that we um maybe can't hold like all the perspectives at once sometimes. So I think um it's it's challenging, but I do love the challenge and I do like to kind of touch the edges of that a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 32:28

It's like living in the paradox, it's the cotidiano and the un you don't know how to speak it, right?

SPEAKER_03 32:37

Yeah, the mystery, yeah, yeah. And also like putting words to sorry, so putting words to memory, putting words to dream. Um can sometimes feel like I don't know what I'm touching here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Yeah, that's definitely a challenge for all of us. Mystics can't have a hard time because our whole our whole way of being is that we don't know anything and we can't possibly speak about it, but then we just spend all our time trying to explain it to each other. Yeah. I you know how I feel about language and so dreams are similar in that way.

SPEAKER_04 33:09

Yeah. So what frightens you about the end of life? So many things.

SPEAKER_03 33:19

Um one of them I think maybe the most potent one to me is like not um being able to complete a story or not feeling like the completion. You know? Uh and also there's that that like curiosity about like, well, things like don't depend on me to be completed. Like they do complete on on their own, yeah. Um in time at least. And so yeah, there's that feeling of like, will I like will I do everything that I wanted to do? Obviously not. Um but like you know, will I feel satisfied? I guess, yeah, the satisfaction, like feeling that piece of like, oh, I didn't get to, I forgot about the most important thing.

SPEAKER_04 34:06

They're all important.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Yeah. You know. Yeah, that's funny. We've heard that too. Um I think part of it, some people it's it's about leaving a legacy or you know, having something to but I think a lot of people like what it seems like more what you're saying is just there's so much we want to do, there's so much we want to share and so much we want to give. And you know, maybe we won't get to do it, but but every seed we sow is is uh a piece of that. So yeah, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 34:31

I actually want to add something else that um for some reason uh it's related. My dad used to tell me the story of like this this man who's in his deathbed, and um he's trying to tell his son, you know, something, but he can't get the words out. He's like I need to tell you that, you know, I need to tell and he just can never finish a sentence, basically. And what I found that was like a a a big cosmic joke was that my uh grandfather on on his side, so his dad, they literally had that same experience, but like you know, way later than this story was told. So just reckoning with that, like, oh maybe like I won't be able to say goodbye in the way that I wanted, or like remind someone what I you know, so it's it's so unknown the the conditions around one's death can be so different one from each other. So it's hard to you know plan, I guess. We can't plan.

SPEAKER_04 35:32

Let me tell you, as somebody who likes to plan and it and is foiled daily.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We work every day to try to plan and then it all falls apart. There's a joke, you know, that God laughs when he sees you planning things, right? That's a good way to make God laugh.

SPEAKER_04 35:48

Well, and you know, with Joaquila and and myself, it's like we always tell people, you know, say the I love you's every day. You know, you don't know.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

And uh I want them to know.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Yeah. So And we were talking earlier about the legacy of the love letters, right? The legacy will or the love letters where you just you make a point at some point if you can, if you can find the time to write a letter to the beloved um and tell them what you would like them to hear in case you don't get a chance to say it in person.

SPEAKER_03 36:18

So that's a really good point. I also I think I also fear other people's management of my death. Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 36:32

All right, Lyd, advanced care directive plan. You need one I do need to do that.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Well, you've got two, you got two very good experts here. Call call uh Anna Luisa, she can help you.

SPEAKER_04 36:45

We'll do a trade. You do I'll do I'll help you organize your your advanced care directive plan if you sit with me and do some dream work with me. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

That sounds like a really nice trade. Yeah, really good. All right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:59

Last question? Or no, there's still more.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Yeah. Do you do you um what do you have that how do you resource yourself when you've when you're feeling overwhelmed by, you know, like you get these, you get this work that you're doing, you're really feeling like you said, you know, sometimes it seems like you've you've got more than you can possibly get to. You know, you've piled up all the dreams. What do you do to just resource yourself to bring yourself back to to center and and uh balance?

SPEAKER_03 37:24

So for me, um something that I keep discovering over and over again is the power of laughing and the power of the ridicule, especially the ridicule. Um just can get me like out of my thinking, my power of ridicule. The power of ridicule. Yeah, for real. Like just ridiculing who I think I am, ridiculing like a character that um that comes up as like annoying for me, you know, and that um kind of embodiment um and spontaneous improvisation is uh it's really a lifesaver for me.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

That's a great idea.

SPEAKER_03 38:02

I like that.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Yeah, I love that. Can you give us an example?

SPEAKER_03 38:07

Well, I could tell you that um recently I went to um this party that we had to dress out as dress up as emotions, um, as adult emotions. Um I dressed up as imposter syndrome. And I was really, really just in that of like, am I doing this right? Like who am I to do this? The mask, you know, uh how uncomfortable that mask can be sometimes. Um and wanting to break it open. Um, but but just being with like the limitation of just be imposter syndrome, nothing else. Only imposter syndrome, like it really um helped me alchemize some of what was golden there for me. Wow, very cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

I love that. That's a great idea.

SPEAKER_04 38:58

I really do too. Because I don't do self-ridicule, I do self-castigation. Like, why didn't you? Why couldn't you have? You should have.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Yeah, I think switching it, that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_04 39:09

I know.

SPEAKER_03 39:09

I think if I had to switch the language I'm using for myself, we could just amp up that self-castigation to the point of ridicule, you know, to the point where it's just like, it is not tontap. Give my top on the ones. Yeah, just like amp it up and then give it give it a constraint, you know. We're doing this for five minutes, full blast.

SPEAKER_04 39:32

Yeah, and then I'm gonna give it a shot. I'm gonna see what this is like. This will probably help my poet, my poetry.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Great advice for everybody. That's great. Wow. Yeah. What a treasure. What a treasure. Um, yeah. Well, that's we're we're getting close to the end here. And um, we always like to give you a chance if there's anything left that we didn't didn't ask you that you'd like to share with us. Do you want to finish with?

SPEAKER_03 39:59

I guess um we didn't we didn't talk much about uh my connection to birth work. Um and I and I I really it's it's kind of the the area of my life that right now relates the most to um death and dying. I I visit a lot of families in their early moments of parenting and just see um how much that can feel like uh death also to them and like a complete rebirth. And so that's really uh come out of my dreams and it has helped me integrate a little more of like the space of birth, the space of death. Like, how are those um not talking about together more?

SPEAKER_01 40:48

Yeah, yeah, um, you know, they belong together for sure.

SPEAKER_04 40:52

They they really do. Yeah, really do there are so many parallels to birth and death. And while Keila and I always come up with uh with a gentleman we interviewed who talked about language, language acquisition goes up at from birth to let's say, you know, their their formative years of nine, or and then at the end of life their their language starts going down. It gets to be like very truncated, and you know, there's a that the language is a similarity. We become feeble and cared for and swaddled like you know, like a child who needs to be, you know, swaddled. So there are so many similarities. Yeah, they need warmth. I mean, it's you know, the fact that our the construct is to fear death is just beyond me.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

And and also the the uh the idea that yeah, that somebody's giving birth, they're just coming into a whole new chapter of their life, they're giving, they're losing, they've lost, and they maybe are grieving the loss of child being on their own, not having to take care of a kid, you know. That changes. That's a huge change, and and it really is. Any any we talked a lot about every different change in our lives is a loss, every breath is is can be a loss, but that's yeah, that's I love that you're that you're maybe that's parallel. Yeah, holding that in your work and and birth work. So yeah, it totally goes together. Yeah, thank you. Um I was just looking at um yeah, I I don't want to interrupt too, if there's more. Is there anything else you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_03 42:21

No, I think that was something that came through right now.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

Yeah, perfect. There's a um you've got a really wonderful set of quotes that I love.

SPEAKER_04 42:30

Um I feel like we should do the lemony snicket though.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

Yeah, we should definitely do that. But then we could also do Robert Moss since that's one of the ones we mentioned. I really yeah. And then we also have the one in Espanol. So uh I think maybe should do all of them. How about since um I'm the one person who doesn't speak Spanish, I won't or just fluent with Spanish, I won't do that part, but maybe I'll do the uh Robert Ro Robert Moss and Okay. You want to do um Lemony Snicket and let Lil Lynn do the Spanish?

SPEAKER_03 43:01

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

Lynn, do you have it with you? Yes, it was just the the last bit of the song.

unknown 43:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

Okay, perfect. You could even sing it if you want.

SPEAKER_04 43:12

All right, so I will start with Lemony Snicket and then we'll just go in or the order that they're in. Okay?

SPEAKER_02 43:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:19

Everyone at some point in their lives wakes up in the middle of the night with a feeling that they are all alone in the world and that nobody loves them now, and that nobody will ever love them, and that they will never have a decent night's sleep again, and will spend their lives wandering blearily around a loveless landscape, hoping desperately that their circumstance will improve, but suc suspecting in their hearts of heart heart of hearts that they will remain unloved forever. The best thing to do in these circumstances is to wake somebody else up so that they can feel. I have to tell you, I speaking of grieving and childbirth, I read all the Lemony Snicket series while pregnant with my daughter. Wow. Yes. And it depressed the shit out of me. I was like, who are these people that don't take care of these babies? So, you know, but it's true. Like, you know, that angst.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

And so I thought that was actually a good one for you.

SPEAKER_04 44:29

It is a perfect one because I wake up like that sometimes. I wake up my dog. Anyhow, carry on. Let's be enlightened with Robert Moss.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Robert Moss, we mentioned him earlier, and we'll put a link to his work in the uh in our podcast notes. But um Robert Moss says dreams are a part of our human survival kit, part of what has kept us going and evolving on this planet. Across history, most people have valued dreaming for two reasons beyond all others. Because dreams enable us to see into the possible future, and because they put us in touch with sources of knowledge and wisdom beyond the ordinary mind. And that's from his The Secret History of Dreaming by Robert Moss.

SPEAKER_04 45:11

I love Robert Moss. Very lovely.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

And then Lynn will either sing or tell us the words to the song Nuestro Juramento.

SPEAKER_03 45:24

So yes, this is Nuestro Juramento by Julio Jaramillo. I love the song, the version of Los Cantores del Alba. And this is the last uh verse says Si tu mueres primero, yo te prometo, escribire la historia de nuestro amor.

SPEAKER_04 45:49

It's not so Mexican.

SPEAKER_03 45:52

Which yeah, it it really um to me gives this this feeling of how we love across time and space and across dimensions, and that we by telling our stories of love with those that have departed, we are also um you know, making that bond stronger. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Do you want to say the English translation for all of us?

SPEAKER_03 46:19

So it basically says, um, if I die first, I promise you that I will write the story of our love. With all the with all my soul full of sentiment and feeling, I will write it with blood, with ink blood from the heart.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Yeah, beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 46:40

Very beautiful, very Mexican. Get that my blood out of my heart and write down.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Yeah, beautiful. Well, thank you so much. It's really been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_04 46:53

Yes, it has.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Um, we really enjoyed and we've learned a lot. And as always, we're thrilled to have spent time with you. So we will say goodbye now, and um, we'll let you know when this goes live.

SPEAKER_02 47:04

So thank you, Lynn. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 47:07

Take care, that was a uh like a breath of fresh air in the death world for me.

SPEAKER_02 47:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:18

You know, and new kind of ideas kind of sprouting, and yeah, I was delighted by her.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

Yeah, I love that we're uh in a way stretching out a little bit, not just talking to deaf people, right? Um and or death workers, but that's true, but also just the the the um the inspiration that I got and from it, and I hope the audience gotten as sure from just to really start paying attention. And I love the idea of acting on your dreams, like getting people together to say, let's let's do this, let's do a little play about this, or let's let's improv improvise something, some music or some creativity, some writing, some art um around what just came, or where the colors that you saw in your dream, or yeah, that what a wonderful uh I do like the action, right?

SPEAKER_04 48:06

I don't want to necessarily do improv around it because that requires a lot of people together.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

Yeah, a lot of people do your own. You can do your own.

SPEAKER_04 48:13

But you know, what I do appreciate is that call to action in and so that the dream knows that you know and you've you're gonna be holding it in awareness and sweetness.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:24

Uh I learned so much. And you know, for the listeners, like, how is this related to death? I think this is part of that warp and weft of living on the daily and how we meet with each other and how we hold each other in these sacred spaces because it's the mystery. Yeah, yeah, just like death, just like coming into this world. It's a mystery.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Is not more illuminal space and getting toward the end of life, and this is talking about the luminal space we live, the death we had to go through every night.

SPEAKER_04 48:54

100%.

SPEAKER_01 48:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:56

Anyway, all right, all with a delight. Adios.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

Adios. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to Charles Heastan, the composer of the original music you are listening to now.

SPEAKER_04 49:16

And of course, thanks to you, our audience, and all of our amazing guests. Please come back next week for another great episode. Share this with your friends, family, and community. We hope you will subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, and Substack. Each guest additional information will be found in the podcast notes. And of course, if you have a good end of life story to share, please reach out. We're always eager to hear from you.