SPEAKER_04 0:00

Hey everybody, I what I have noticed, and I think you probably all have noticed that everybody grieves in different ways, right? And it it probably changes every time you grieve, right? Don't don't you think we we uh when we are, where we are, who we are, we grieve differently. And so we wondered why do people grieve so differently. And in this episode we get to meet somebody who's explored the emotional reality around grief that really doesn't follow one path. Many expect grief to look the same every time for everyone, but really the truth is that people process loss in deeply different ways every time. So each grief you experience can be felt completely differently. We're going to talk with Sarah Baldwin today about the grief persona and framework that she's created. It's a model that identifies four common grieving styles. She calls them the steady hand, the quiet anchor, the seeker, and the open heart, right? Um understanding these grief styles, I think, can really help us uh make sense of what we're going through, our experience, and also help us not be in conflict with others. It can help us understand what other people are going through at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Yeah. So whether you're navigating personal loss or supporting somebody else in theirs or working in uh our beloved death positive and caregiving spaces, this conversation offers a grounded way or grounding to approach grief with more clarity and compassion. In this episode, uh, we will talk about why people grieve differently. We'll explain those four different styles that we listed. Uh how to support different grieving styles and families and and other relationships. And how grief differences can impact end-of-life planning and communication. Things are in the right space.

SPEAKER_04 1:56

Yeah, that's a great, great, great, great help.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

So if you've ever felt misunderstood in your grief or felt like you have misunderstood somebody else's and stumbled and tripped over feet in those ways, I think this framework could really help.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

Yeah, we really we've we really appreciated this and we really uh I think it's a great help. So so stay tuned. Stay tuned.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Welcome all. I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Armendaris, and on today's episode, we look forward to a conversation with Sarah Baldwin. Sarah is the co-founder of Restfully and the creator of the Grief Persona Framework, a model that helps people understand how they respond to loss.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

Yeah, it's really a great website. Looking forward to talking more about that. I am the Reverend Joaquil David Matthews. Sarah has an undergraduate degree in economics and political science from the University of Connecticut, and her background's in independent research and analytics. Sarah and the Restfully team are committed to creating tools and resources to support families preparing for or navigating end of life. Because grief is hard enough, right? And uh, yeah, that's definitely what we're all about. As we were talking earlier, we realized we we're all doing, we're doing this work, we're all in the same kind of uh family here. So thanks so much for joining us. Can you um yeah, like I said, looking at the website, I was just really blown away by the amount of resources and the depth of resources that you have there. And can you talk a little bit about how um you know that's brought you to this work and and what brought you to this work?

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Absolutely, and thank you so much for having me on. Uh, what you guys have built is profound and beautiful, and I can tell a lot of hard work goes into it. And so I appreciate the opportunity to talk about what we're building, which is restfully. And um, in 2022, my mom unexpectedly got a terminal diagnosis, which, like many other people in the world, brought our life to a screeching halt. And we had the blessing of spending about three months with her and and and helping her kind of end her life on earth, and and um, it is the worst thing you can go through, but it is also one of the more beautiful things that you can be holding space with someone for.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

And at the end of that, I kind of the dust cleared, and there's this wow, that was profound moment. And then there's also uh, hmm, that was unnecessarily complicated in some ways.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

That I there is a complication to saying goodbye to your mom, but there's unnecessary complications, and those really have stuck with me since, because the thing I'll say often is when someone dies, you get a long, long to-do list, but 99 of the to-do items are pretty useless, right? They're not one is grieve your mom and hold space and process a real major loss in your life. But, you know, the logistics stuff is really, really, in my opinion, unnecessarily complicated. And when we look at why, it's because it's really a tough conversation, a tough industry, a tough topic no one likes to talk about understandably by default. And then we some of us push through and here we are having conversations. So that's really the genesis of it is what do I wish existed when I found out my mom was diagnosed with a terminal illness? And how can I take this pain and build something for people who will be following in similar paths behind me?

SPEAKER_03 5:58

That's right. You know, it just occurred to me as you said that too, about how fraught the process is to do the end of life pieces. And, you know, Joaquila and I really advocate for people planning their stuff so that the loved ones don't have to go through the hellscape of grieving and having to do the things. And I was just, it just occurred to me too, you know, every individual plan will be completely different. And I think that people have this uh perception that there is a checklist, I'm gonna just do the thing, it's gonna be fine. But just as that there's like, you know, eight billion ways for people to grieve. There are eight billion ways for people to want to be going through the dying process, eight billion ways that you'll want to be and disposed of, or you know, however. So it is it is so exciting, and it's like the awareness that you just were like, this was too much for me. Like, and there should be better options for so many other people. So I do appreciate that. So you launched this after your mother's passing. Tell us like, what is what are your what's your role now? What do you what do you call yourself?

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yeah, well, yeah. Um, that's a great question. I wear a lot of different hats. Um, but one of the things that when we came to the idea of I want to make a website that has resources for people navigating loss, exactly what you were saying is no one's navigating loss the exact same way, right? Every single story is very, very personal and very, very unique. And because of that, it makes a really complicated problem. How do you make a website for everyone, right? Right. And um, one of the things that had kind of come up in watching other people grieve, and in my own family watching people grieve, is this idea that we don't all grieve the same way. What brings me comfort while I'm in grief might not be what brings you comfort. And when looking at that, we saw a lot of friction between people in how they grieved. And so one of the very first things that we did was this research on how do different people grieve. We looked at culturally, how do different cultures grieve? And then also just personal, yes, it's and historical, where you are, all these things. And then also just people, right? Two people in the same exact culture with the same my I'm one of four kids, and my three siblings and I, very, very different grieve grief styles. And that actually kind of brought this light bulb moment for us was okay, if you could actually bucket people into different categories and say, you tend to grieve like this, and you tend to grieve like that. We did a lot of research to try to say, how are these different categories that people grieve? And that's where the grief personas framework came from. And that has been very foundational to what we're building at Restfully because it really feeds into anything, conflict, planning, um, how we think and talk about our own end of life. And and so that's been probably the most fun part of this is learning how that can help others. And that's been a huge focus.

SPEAKER_04 9:21

Yeah, yeah, that's great. Yeah. I mean, we we talk about, you know, the people who are listening to this probably are a little more death positive, possibly, than than um, because we sort of choose our audience here, or audience chooses us. But I think it's worthwhile to um really consider that that that this kind of resource can bring uh assistance, can help anybody, and that this is why we really want to uh lift up your resources and the work that we're doing. That's why it's so important is we want people to start having these conversations that are more difficult. And um, yeah, I'd be interested to hear more about the the um that project and and kind of tell us a little bit more about those four um pro person personas, yeah, grief personas, if you would.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Yeah, happy to. So we bucket these into four and I'll walk through them. But what I would say is at any given time, like most things were a lot of different things at the same time. Right. Um, and so it's common to identify with a lot of them and and maybe see yourself one way one day and different way a different day. But the four main ones are the steady hand. That is the person who gets really the most comfort from taking action. They're often the person handling logistics. And um, the second person would be the quiet anchor. This is a person who prefers to grieve and process on their own timeline and in their own space. And the third person is the seeker. They tend to look for spiritual and religious frameworks to answer some of life's biggest, most confusing questions. And then the fourth is the open heart, and that's probably the most traditional what you would see on TV, a person crying by a bedside. And so those all four have really unique reasons. And what I've really deeply come to realize is that we need as a society every single one of those four types of people. And it's also happens to be where some of the biggest, most painful friction is between us.

SPEAKER_04 11:27

Yeah. And I love that you said that we move between those two. That's something we found with a lot of the different aspects of grieving and aspects of life and the personalities, et cetera, but that we do. We aren't necessarily stuck in one that's that's the world, the world doesn't work so clearly as that. So thank you, mate, making that point.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

Yeah, and I also was thinking culturally, especially in the US, I would say that um people appreciate the steady hand and they'll give, they'll grant permission for that person to actually take care of business because it's doing. But the open heart and the seer may just get like steamrolled and like there's no space for those kind of folks to be in community sharing their hearts. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

I I think it's it's that specifically the open heart, steady hand combo can be some of the deepest friction because that's the if you have a person's bedside table, take one daughter who's crying by the bed, and the other daughter who's coordinating logistics with the doctors. And the daughter who's crying by the bed is like, come sit with mom, like she needs you. She's dying. We need to cry with mom. This is a very significant moment. And the other daughter who's coordinating logistics, like, who's gonna coordinate the logistics? Like, someone has to do this. And so there's this, you're not grieving the right way kind of undertone that I really think people, when they hear about grief personas, they just get it, they understand, and you can see it in other people. And it starts being this framework where you say, Hey, I see your steady hand is here today in a strong way. Can I ask you to sit with me, the the quiet anchor, and just let's not talk about the funeral. Let's not talk about any of that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

Yeah, without this awareness, I think that's why there's a lot of wounding, you know, at that, you know, there's just all these people show up as themselves and it just makes people mad, you know? Yes, exactly. You know, I mean, I I couldn't agree. It's so horrifying to hear this, but I was just uh the Christian story of Mary and Martha, you know, Mary is like uh at, you know, Jesus', and and I'm not a Christian, and this is another thing, but I remember how when I was growing up, everybody like lauded Mary for sitting there weeping and washing his feet with tears. And then Martha was in the kitchen doing work, and I'm like, Exactly, why is she always in trouble? Like, I am Martha, I'm gonna be cooking and making sure everybody's okay, but why is that denigrated? Like absolutely so often.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

And I'm like, ugh, yuck. Yes, I think that's right. And I've spent a lot of time with this because um if you think anthropologically, why would we be different? Right. And if you say at some point we're all in a tribe somewhere and catastrophe strikes and there's um a loss of someone in the tribe, you do need the steady hand who's like, okay, I understand we're all really upset. I'm gonna go make dinner. We have to eat.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

And then you do need the person who's actually just the tears are coming through them, the grief is flowing through them. You do need the quiet anchor who's in some ways to the rest of us modeling healing because they they're alone, they're they're processing her on their own. And then we do need the seeker. I think it's human condition to think, why is this all happening? And what is happening? So it's when you think of it as a tribe, I think we have a lot of patience. And then when it's your sister, you have a lot less patience. And the other thing that happens is it's this misplaced grief, right? I I talk to a lot of people of friction around these different personas, and it's like, are you really mad at your brother-in-law? Or are you sad that your dad died? Right. Right. It doesn't, it feels like all that energy went kind of the wrong place. And it's just giving the space to heal and and and show up for each other lets the real process of grief kind of flow through us.

SPEAKER_04 15:40

Yeah. Wow, that's so great, so important. I think it's true too. And I I think you were hinting to this that that we each have all four of these personas going on in this, and we might be some of the conflict might be within ourselves, you know. Like I shouldn't be weeping right now because there's too much work to be done. Or you know, or vice versa. Yeah. So wow, that's that's really fascinating, really important. Yeah, I think it's great that um and it's a good thing for our audience to to really spend time with. I hope we will definitely give links to your site. And um, there's also like, I don't know how many pages of different resource um are they blogs like or little talks that you've given?

SPEAKER_01 16:19

There's all different things. And the one thing I'll say in the world of AI, these are real human, like we it's a quality.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

It it matters. Hey, yeah. So a lot of a lot of work went into it because it, you know, it's easy to think, let's just make a thousand blogs and hopefully people like them. But the work of teaching grief personas to people and then learning, okay, well, different grief personas. Let's say you're planning a funeral with your family. Grief personas are gonna play a role in that. And so if you could start understanding grief personas and then say, all right, I see you. You you're this or that, and let's make sure that your is the quiet anchor being represented in the funeral, not just the steady hand planning every single component of it.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

So you know, I really appreciate that because it I I and I would want to lob this out there for people that the this these personas are not just for the people who are currently experiencing a death in the family, and this is how we should all like, you know, figure this out in our in our little tribe. But uh I was just at a weekend retreat where people started sharing a lot of their traumas, and people didn't some people were like, I'm out of here. Some people were like leaning in, some people were crying. And I just realized like people do need to understand how different experiences affect people so that we can be a little less irritated with how people are presenting, right? So um I would love like a like a funeral director to know this so that when they sense that there is friction in the family, that person could just easily say, Hey, I see like you know, you two aren't doing so great in this moment, but you know, is it because you need some help with the steady actions? Or, you know, should we all just come and sit with you for a while if you want to just hold that sacred space together? Instead of like, you know, dividing and having chaotic chaos room.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

I I feel the same way. I think even when it comes to work, right? Uh one I was just having a conversation with someone saying, you know, uh, she was saying, I think I'm kind of a quiet anchor with my colleagues. I want to be an open heart with my family, but it it I want to be a quiet anchor. I kind of want to make sure they know I need a little more space, I need a little more time to process. I'm not, it's hard when it's, you know, when there's a loss and you have to return to work. No one knows what to do, right? And if everyone who's returning, if everyone, if the person who's returning and the person they're returning to has this understanding, you know, I might be an open heart, but your your coworker doesn't not care right what's happening if she prefers not to cry in the staff meeting about the loss, right? It's like just how that's showing up at the moment.

SPEAKER_04 19:27

Yeah, I can I can see looking at this, the kind of the crosswalk between many of the other, the Enneagram and you know, many of the other ways that we look at our yeah, that we look at our um personalities. I'm sure it would be fun, interesting to fact to to do that kind of crosswalk and see where they are. But it does apply to really everything in life. And because we talk about planning um a lot, this would be a really good thing to go into our planning process with, to start thinking about who's gonna show up and what kind of um what kind of jobs can we give them or tasks and we look at the what can what can we expect of people that we're asking to be our healthcare agents, for instance, or we're asking to be in charge of our disposition. Um are those, you know, how will they asking them, you know, how do you think you'll approach this, or how do you think you'll feel about this? So it could really help in that process as well. So someone's gonna be able to do that. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

I have a I have a friend who um was saying she was having a hard time because she didn't feel as though her eldest child would be the right person to be her executor. And that's kind of like the for a lot of people, it's like, well, you pick the eldest because they're the next in line. And I really do think, again, a steady hand is a fantastic executor. They they probably want to be an executor, whether they're the eldest child or the youngest child or whatever. It yes, and whereas other people who process, if you're the quiet anchor and you kind of want to be alone, but you also have the task of being an executor, it's like that doesn't you let that person off the hook, right? And then if you just don't have a steady hand in your house or in your home, then what do you do about that? You say, all right, we're gonna have to divide this work because no one's gonna really get comfort from taking action. So I think it's it's for planning, it's fantastic because really who are you tasking with what um matters. And one of the the saddest stats is 61% of people after their second parent dies, they never have another meaningful interaction with their siblings again.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Right? What?

SPEAKER_01 21:39

And it's so sad. I know. And I say this to my friends who all have young kids. My friends and my siblings who all have young kids, I say, think of all the work you're putting in to your kids getting along and being kind and sharing and and just living together well. If if You fast forward and said 61% of them will never, after your you or parents are gone, they're not gonna have any more meaningful connections. Like it's not that hard to see why. And the reasons why are so unacceptable. It's like they didn't agree on how the funeral was supposed to happen. They didn't grieve the same way. There's some pain, there's some, you know, toughness there. And you just kind of grew apart starting at that moment, and then that's it. Like this can't, we we can't let that happen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:33

And again, that speaks to the importance of having these conversations.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 22:37

Looking at this together. So if as a as a siblings, we sit down and look at these different personas and we think about who's gonna do what and when. If a lot of that's been talked about on an ongoing basis, like on Luisa and I talked to our kids on Ruby.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

I know. That's such a gift. It's a real gift.

SPEAKER_04 22:57

Yeah, it's gonna be a lot less likely that that whole um disenfranchisement or disconnection is gonna happen. So I love that. It's so important. Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

I do, I do appreciate that too, because I I I just, of course, learned something new. And I was thinking about my two kids who will be, you know, in charge of me. Uh I I have a crier and a non-crier. I think the crier is gonna want to be tending to that open heart of hers, right? And you know, I remember last year when her cat died, like they they discussed their values around interment versus cremation. Like, yeah, I didn't, you know, and I told Joaquil in an interview, I was like, I don't want my kids to be fighting over this and then like be so mad. Like I gotta just like write it down, get it done, and then you know, hopefully they will continue to be connected after this, you know, time. And you want it to be meaningful and sacred.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Yeah, I was I was talking to two brothers, and um their father had told one of them he wanted to be committed, the other one he wanted to be buried, and they were just so upset with each other, and they were they didn't know what to do. And I just said, like, I am not a therapist, but could I just suggest flipping a coin and giving each other a hug? Because statistically, you guys are not gonna get over this, and you're gonna be upset, and it's it's unfortunate. You're yes, and like I'm really sorry you lost your dad, but let's not complicate it with placing this anger on your brother because you're it's actually objectively confusing on what to do. So I couldn't agree more. We couldn't be more aligned on leave a legacy of clarity, and that is the kindest thing you could possibly do. And if if people could get that message, I think there's so much healing that can happen.

SPEAKER_04 24:58

I know. Well, and talking about uh uh having this whole discussion ahead of time, and it just it takes one more bit of grief away, right? Because one of the, I think that that you just talked about that 61%, that's a huge loss right there. That people are going to be grieving in one way or another, on beyond the grief of their loss of their loved one. So they've actually lost not only their beloved who died, but now they've lost their siblings, their friends or whatever, you know. That's that's just a huge thing to add on. So wow, what a wonderful thing to make a point of as part of your planning and as part of your conversations, just let's not have that happen, right? Let's figure this out ahead of time as best we can. Or if it is happening, to have people like you or us, you know, around to say, let's stop a moment and look at the way that you're grieving and talk about, you know, this is a different way of grieving, but do you really want to grieve forever the loss of this relationship as well as the loss of your loved one?

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Right.

SPEAKER_04 25:56

So there's there's uh again another bit of work for all of us and for everybody who's listening to yes.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

So I'm gonna go with the uh challenges. So what are the challenges that you find in your in your work?

SPEAKER_01 26:10

I think the the most interesting thing for me is, and you guys are obviously uh living in this world as well, is getting your end-of-life plan is on almost everybody's to-do list. Unfortunately, it tends to be towards the bottom. And I have never gotten to the end of my to-do list. I don't know about you guys. So it's about that. And I don't want to over-dramatize it, but I also think in the world where we don't have a collective, like we don't have a lot in common. Um end of life, we do have in common with everyone. It might be the last thing that we all have in common. And I think that taking this kind of big philosophical concept that I understand we're either conditioned and trained or um predisposed to not want to think about or talk about. I I I see it, I get it, I live it, I have the same situation. I'm human. Um getting people to say, you know what, what I'm not gonna do is leave question marks. What I'm not gonna do is get to this later. I'm going to tackle this right now. And so that that is definitely our our biggest challenge. And that's why I think the grief personas can be a little bit of a release valve where it's like, oh, I I understand myself a tiny bit more. And if you understand yourself a tiny bit more, then you can understand how things feel right or wrong or in sync or not. So for example, if someone's a steady hand and you send them an email, um, let's get your will and legal documents organized. They're like, okay, yeah, let's. And but you don't want to send that to every type of person. It's like, leave me alone. I have enough stuff to do, right? Right. And so I think that uh helping identify how who people are and how they are. And that's why we put a just an eight question quiz on our website so that you can pretty quickly figure it out, even though I've actually found most people can guess what they're gonna be. Um, but if you understand what you are, then it can kind of be step one in this kind of vast hill to climb of stuff. So of stuff to tackle. So that's really our biggest challenge is can you take step one and just start saying, look, I'm not not nothing in life not thinking about has really ever gotten better, right? Right. At least my experience. So um putting things off in terms of energy where you put energy that you know needs to go has not served me, at least. So I think it's that it's it's the idea that it's why I actually, you know, I was saying this before we were recording. I feel like kinship with you both, because if you're here ready to talk about it, you know that you're kind of the weirdo at a dinner party when people you know, you are too. Yes. And it's like, and you find the people who are like, oh, that's so great that you're doing that. Thank you. And it's helping others who are more reluctant. And I think again, it's like it can also be generational. Like my grandparents didn't really talk to my parents about this. And so it there's also it's learned behavior. It's like, it's I'm not gonna let when I die, a big bundle of confusion. I won't be leaving a big bundle of confusion that's gonna cause stress for the people I love the most. And I think if you could have that conversation, everyone gets it. It's that they're not everyone's listening to your podcast or on our website. So I think for others, it's like asking people politely, like, how are you doing this? How are you helping? What you know, example is I'm my sister's god parent for her kids. Like it would be really helpful. I'm happy to take on that major responsibility. It'd be really helpful if you could do a little bit of the work, God forbid I ever need it. And so I think those conversations and helping people have those conversations with their own communities and their own networks. I see it building and getting easier. Yes, yes. Um, but there's still a lot of work to do.

SPEAKER_04 30:42

Lots to do. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:43

There's a lot of work to do, and and it's it, and it is about having conversations because it occurred to me like I told myself by my birthday this year I was going to redo my advanced care directive plan. I think I I opened it up and I piddled around in it, but I'd never like, you know, printed it and had it signed again. So I'm behind on that this year. And it and it troubles me that it is on my the last thing on my to-do list. And I talk about so many different aspects of that with my children and my close friends that if my kids had to figure this out, they'd be like, well, you know, these are the people who are not going to be with grandmom, and this is what she really wanted. And you know, so at least they'd have a guiding memory that is, you know, so uh that they have at least that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:31

It's it's it's always important to write it down, like we said, but you're right, the conversation's the first part and the first most important piece. We also and and I I do a class, I think we've we've done classes um that's a couple hours long of all the things that you can document that would help, that would be helpful, all the things you can take care of now. And at the end, I almost almost always say, be kind to yourself. You're not gonna get all this done tomorrow, but do it like you do any other um important priority task. Put it on your calendar.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

Right.

SPEAKER_04 32:04

Maybe have a half an hour a week or an hour a week where you sit down and work on it, you know, or whatever amount of time you can dedicate to it. And then if you don't get it done, don't beat yourself up. You know, we don't shoot all over ourselves here.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:15

And just, you know, you know, say, oops, I didn't get to it, I'll get to it next time, you know. But I'll keep but keep it on the calendar, keep it on your uh top of mind as a priority and in your conversations. And I think the other thing is when you're having these conversations, the people who are less likely to want to do this are at least going to start getting the ripple's gonna happen, right? Are you gonna start getting, oh yeah, I heard about this. Maybe I should be thinking about this. And so I think it it is, as you said, I think it's starting to um ripple out. People are beginning, and it might just be the people we hang out with, but I know our world, everybody's talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

I know. I think that's called selection bias. I I couldn't agree more. I think um also an accountability partner. So if there's someone who's close, you just say, Hey, can you make sure I, you know, do this and I have this documented, I'm like trying to hold myself accountable. That's been really helpful because that's the person who likely your accountability partner is the person who will want this the most.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

And so it it that's the person who's most incentivized for you to help with that. And then the other thing I was gonna say is just the more about understanding who you are and how you grieve, because I think one of the things, again, grief personas aren't a cure all, but one of the things is if you have just like a big cloud of trauma or grief, or just I have all the worst feelings about when this situation happened, when my grandma died, everything went wrong, and it was the biggest fight, or something like that. Yeah, it's that alone is gonna prevent you from thinking about your own end of life. So it's it's re kind of coming back to this, okay. Well, that was a mess, but I don't want to leave a mess myself. So it matters to break this cycle of that.

SPEAKER_04 33:59

That's so good. So important. Yeah, that's really helpful. Thank you. Um let's see. How do you um keep yourself resourced while you're doing this when you when you're feeling a little overwhelmed? We always like to hear about that because everybody needs resourcing.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

You know what? I I love that's such a good question. I mean, one thing I will say with um I'll give I'll give you an example. We were adding an obituary writer to our website, and I was testing it out, and it's a few questions and where did this person live, and you know, just basic questions that would go into an obituary, and I was testing it out, and I mean, I probably tested it 20 times in a row, one one day. And every time I'm filling in about my mom, right? Every single time, and then I'm just like, oh my God, I completely knocked myself right into grief. I just I just did that too many times. Like, you no one should write their mom's obituary 20 times in a row. Like there's she died three years ago, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:58

It's just yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

So I think that is one of the things, again, like um just being very aware. For me, grief looks like fatigue. It just is like I am get out of gas to keep going. And so when that happens, I just go right back to things that I did right after I lost her. Like give myself space, take a nap, take with a grief nap, which I jokingly say is like the only nap that um you don't have to feel bad about, right? Like just take a nap, take it, lie down. So that, and then the other one that I know you guys have found as well is this space is just filled. If people are called to this work, whether you're a nurse working with people, end of life, a funeral director, a content creator, uh, any a builder. There are people building some of the coolest things for all of us. Um, those people are there, like find those people and and they're drawn to this for a reason and just go go find people like that. So conversations like this fill me up for sure. Yes, because it's a lot of hope. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:09

Exactly. Yeah, that's true. I think the one of the things we talk about this with all with the world as it is. Um, it's so important to have your community and to know who you can turn to and to have somebody that you know you can look to as a companion or counselor or teacher or friend, just somebody that you can reach out to and say, Wow, this this is too much for me right now. Can I just cry on your shoulder for a little while? Or can we just yell at each other for a while or you know, go scream at a tree or whatever we need to do, you know? But yeah, absolutely. It's such an important uh resource to have that in place and know that you've got that and and be open to it, open to stepping into that and not be afraid of somebody thinking you're crazy for screaming at trees.

SPEAKER_03 36:51

No, speaking of crazy and frightened, uh, what frightens you about the end of life?

SPEAKER_01 37:00

I think I have as I maybe it's just I'm a steady hand, right? So I'm a logistics person. So at the bottom of the logistics is figure out what that's all really about. And I think the more I I grow up and the more I work in this space and the more play a space I hold with end of life, the more I start to deeply understand that for me, I'm not gonna have an answer when I die, a full answer. I think there are people who have real deep faith in what happens after you die. And for me, it's I'm I'm never gonna get to the end of my to-do list that does contain figure out what happens when we die, why we die. So a mystery. Yeah, exactly. And I'm trying to just really use that as um like an a powerful energy to pull us to um truths. And one of the things I've said for a long time is I believe that wisdom is the ability to hold two completely conflicting things at the same time and not short circuit like a computer going yeah, berserk. And I think it's that. I think that it's um there are many different truths you need to hold about end of life and what we will know, what we won't know, when we will know, if we will know any of those things. And that's actually the beauty of life, not the torture of unknowing and the living in paradox. Yes. So, you know, steady hands maybe don't love that, but I'm trying to just sit with it and let it kind of wash over me because I don't think I'm I'm gonna have an answer myself.

SPEAKER_04 38:51

I love that. Yeah, that's the basis of many of uh many of our feelings is the mysticism of just letting it be a mystery and uh being willing to hold both both uh yes and no. So yeah, so thank you for that. That's very important. Uh well, is there anything that you wish we would have asked you?

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Um, that's a good question. Nothing's coming to mind. I mean, um, my only regret is I wish I could ask you all these same questions that I should have asked you all these, because I think you guys are filled with so much knowledge and so much thoughtfulness into it. And I really like I said earlier, I listened to a bunch of these and they're so profound. You guys are unbelievably poised on them too. I'm really impressive. So I can't thank you enough for having me on because your personalities also come through and you're just as nice as I thought you would be.

SPEAKER_03 39:51

Well, now that you know us, you know us, and you can always reach out and we can always we can stay friends. We have our qu our our quote though.

SPEAKER_04 40:00

You want to share your quote? You want to share it? You could sing it.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

Actually, I don't have it. I don't want to misquote the legend, so I don't have it in front of me. Do you have your quote? Do you have it?

SPEAKER_04 40:09

I've got it. It's Dolly Parton.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

Yes, I did go with a Dolly Parton quote just because I love it. I mean a goat of a woman. It's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_04 40:18

It's uh well I'll read it. It says, Questions I have many. Answers, but a few. But we're here to learn the spirit burns to know the greater truth. My Dolly Parton. Yeah, what a what a wonderful, wise person we have. Yeah, me too. Uh wonderful, wise person we have too uh as a resource for all of us, Dolly Parton. So more from her. Well, again, we thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 40:47

Thank you, thank you, Sarah. Thank you. Thank you both.

SPEAKER_04 40:51

Hope we'll hear more from you in the future. And certainly I highly recommend everybody taking a look at the website and learning more about it. And hope everybody will tell all your friends, subscribe.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

Uh yeah, like and keep in touch.

SPEAKER_04 41:06

Adios.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Thank you. Ciao.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Great last conversation about the window.

SPEAKER_04 41:15

Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to Charles Easton, the composer of the original music you are listening to now.

SPEAKER_03 41:23

And of course, thanks to you, our audience, and all of our amazing guests. Please come back next week for another great episode. Share this with your friends, family, and community. We hope you will subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Boost Guide, and Taco. And of course, if you have a good end of life story to share, please reach out. We're always here to hear from you.