SPEAKER_00 0:01

You know, we are very aware that grief is something every person will face and does face. Yet a lot of us do feel unprepared when it arrives. In this episode, a licensed trauma specialist shares how to support someone in grief, how cultural differences shape the way people mourn, and how to talk about death with more honesty and care. Trauma-informed care. It's very important.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Very, very important. We're going to be exploring what trauma-informed care looks like in our everyday life, why grief is not something to fix, and how small things shift in language and presence can make a meaningful difference. Whether you are supporting a loved one or working in a caregiving or creative field, or just navigating your own loss, we hope this conversation will offer you guidance and that you can use. We will be discussing one, how to support someone who is grieving. Two, trauma-informed approaches to grief and loss. Three, cultural differences in grief and mourning. And four, finding meaning and presence in everyday life. This episode is for anyone who wants to show up with more clarity, compassion, and confidence in the face of loss. Welcome everyone. Thank you for joining us again today. I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Hermendaris. And today we get to meet Ashley Buckner. Ashley is a nationally licensed clinical social worker. She is licensed in 37 states. Wow. That's that's wow.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

That's great. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

And the Reverend What Reverend Wat Gil and David Matthews, and that was Ana Luisa, by the way. I don't know if you said that at the beginning. Anyway, we were glad to hear from Ashley. She got in touch with us and asked to share about trauma-informed care, grief and loss, ethical practice, clinician burnout, and how systems, not individuals, drive many of the challenges facing mental health today. She's passionate about making complex clinical topics accessible, honest, and deeply human. And we're really glad to have you on today. I was looking down through your website and such and also see that you work with teens. I think that would be fun to talk about. So we want to hear all about all of this stuff. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Yes, well, welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Yes. Well, and here we are, intersecting in the 21st century, talking about death and dying and all these things. But what inspired you to begin this work?

SPEAKER_02 3:02

I think what initially inspired me was uh I worked for hospice. Well, prior to that, even uh I did a lot of volunteer work for hospice. Um and and that really started me on this journey of realizing that um people don't talk about loss and grief and end of life. And so I really expanded that. I actually began work in hospice, worked with that in my own family, and then became a certified end of life dualer. Um, and then do a lot of work around um not only end of life, but living. I think that's very important. So that's a deep passion.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Yeah. Very much so. Well, can you tell us more about the work you're doing and kind of currently what you're working on? And yeah, and and uh the whole I I did notice when I was reading through that the word art, when I saw art certified trauma therapist or trauma specialist, I thought that was about making paintings or something, you know, but that's actually uh an acronym. So maybe you can tell us more about that.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

Absolutely. Um I own Anchor and Rod's Therapy and Anchor and Rod's Academy, and we um not only do therapy across the country, I'm currently lost it's in the 41 states. Sorry, that changed over the weekend. So 41 states and have the other 10 licenses pending. And so that allows me to be able to meet people wherever they are, literally, uh as well as as um therapeutically. And so we also do a lot of education um around we're trying to start some um death cafes uh where we talk openly about end of life and and what this looks like in grief and loss. And um the thing that inspires me is that there's so much grief and loss in the world. And I I find that um it's such a taboo subject, especially in the South. As you can tell, I'm from the South. Uh so you know, people really don't speak about these things. And and not only do we not talk about um grief and loss and death and dying, but um, there's often a lot of um I think there's a a lack of discussing how we live too and what that means and and really having control of your life your whole life. So um I work in in those spaces of really just educating the public, educating uh therapists. I I mentioned that I'm a clinical supervisor. I really educate my supervisees to work with people on grief and loss, and that doesn't just mean loss of life, right? That can be where the movie version of our life doesn't look like the reality version. So um really working in those spaces to make the uncomfortable more comfortable, and and that is a big passion of mine. And um, my family kind of hates it, but I am the person at Thanksgiving that says, you know, how are you living your life? Are you are you happy with it? Do you have any anything that you would change? You know, I think people wait so long to to live, and um there's such a fear, and I really kind of open that conversation of what does it look like to to live with very little regrets? I don't think any of us have no regrets, but to live with very little regrets and to live our life to the fullest.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

So yeah, very nice. Yeah. That's great. I mean, I I was just it's funny because Ana Luisa and I talk about that a lot, how when we go to dinner parties, people are expect to hear from us eventually. I went out to um lunch yesterday with my family. It was from some of my family, and sure enough, my my my wife always kind of rolls her eyes because she's like, okay, you finally you finally got around to talking about death and dying. And I'm telling my uh 21-year-old granddaughter, you know, you're gonna die too. You know, you should get your stuff together, you know. I always do, yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

I and I apologize. I I didn't answer one of your questions. You mentioned um ART or accelerated resolution therapy, um, and I completely forgot to answer that question. So my apologies. Accelerated resolution therapy has been uh an amazing game changer for me personally and professionally. Um, it is an eye movement therapy that really works with uh so many things, but trauma, it it works with the physical symptoms of uh of trauma and and loss and things like that. It also is great for chronic pain and ADHD and um depression and anxiety, and I could go on and on. And that has been uh just a remarkable um thing. Not only do people not have to continue to retell their story, which is beautiful, and but it also allows um the therapist and and others that are trained to not um not get that second-hand trauma, track compassion fatigue. And so it's really beautiful. I actually speak on it across the country. Um recently I was accepted to go to a conference in Belize to speak on it, so I'll be doing that in May. So I guess now internationally I do um speak on accelerated resolution therapy and the impacts of being able to do one session and have amazing results. It doesn't take any of the realities away, but it just takes away those physical symptoms and is an absolute game changer for people when, especially in grief and loss, I found that to be a really beautiful, beautiful way to work with individuals.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Wow, beautiful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

That is, yeah, it's a really and I've never heard of that, and I'm now very, very curious. And also it it makes me realize that I mean, while Keila and I talk to a lot of folk and you know, in our personal lives or communities, and there is such a resistance to discussing either the quality of life that you're living or the the absoluteness of you're going to die, right? Like and you know, it's it for me, I I frame it as a mental health issue when people don't want to talk about it. And I think it is a trauma issue. I didn't realize like not talking about something could also become a very traumatic, kind of like shameful feeling around like it's scary, you know, grandma died or my best friend died. And you know, how do I how do I reconcile my personal living with death? Yeah, and so I kind of I kind of like that. It's like everybody needs it.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

And and also, you know, where I grew up, especially um in the Bible belt, you you don't talk about things because then you speak them into existence, right? So um it's a very taboo topic to talk about not being here. So I really love to open up those conversations to say this is an inevitable, you know, how do you feel about it? But also how do you live until we get to that point?

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Right. It's also, and I'm gonna, you know, I when I was in seminary, I had to do my practicum and I ended up writing an advanced care directive planning book, and I housed it kind of through spiritual direction. So I started out as a spiritual director, you know, kind of talking about your spiritual life and then talking about death. And I have to say, um, a lot of folks who are Christians, because I only had Christians, I had a few, you know, other different, but not many, but they're terrified of hell. They're tired, they're terrified of dying and having gotten it wrong and going to hell. And so I was like, wow, like that's why you don't want to talk about dying. It's because you're afraid that you're going to hell.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Yeah, I I hear that a lot and see that a lot. And then what happens is people, and I've sat with numerous people, not only personally but professionally, um, at the end of their life, and they there's such a fear around that, not only for that individual, but for the family. And then, you know, there's not been any discussion. So families are having to make decisions that we don't know if someone was okay with. And and then we don't, you know, so it just creates this cycle of of unspoken um uncomfortability that that doesn't have to be there.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Sounds like we're working on the same stuff. That's so great. Thank you. Thank you for that perspective. I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Would you say there are um uh well what are I guess what are the biggest challenges you face when you are reaching out? And I'm very fascinated too, um, because neither of us are from the South. If you know if you can speak maybe to some of the cultural differences um from the place that you're from, maybe that's part of the challenge, is as you said, you know, people people are afraid that they'll talk speak it into existence. That's a really interesting, and and we've heard that too from other people. Um not just the Bible belt. Right. Um, so I think you know, there is that feeling. I wonder if there's other uh challenges you face or other things that you would say are are specific. Definitely um to the South.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

A lot of a lot of cultural uh over the last few years I've moved to different parts of the country. Um, and and I find that grief and loss is managed. We know this from a book that it's managed very differently, but I actually saw that in person. You know, I I've um lived from um Southern Florida to uh near Mexico and California, West Virginia, all the way up to near Canada. And I find that so many groups deal with grief and loss differently. And um I think recognizing the cultural differences is very important. Uh really listening to people and finding out what their fears are, talking to them one-on-one is so helpful. Um I find that people are actually really open to talking about things one-on-one to a stranger. But in our own tight-knit families, we don't want to talk about it because it makes it real. Uh, we don't ever want to consider what life would be like without mom or dad or husband, wife, grandma, grandpa, you know, things like that, children. So um I find that I can create a safe space where they may not feel comfortable talking about that in their family. And so uh that that that's a challenge, but also an opportunity that I have left is that um people do want to talk about these things most of the time, but they just don't want to talk about them with their family because it's just very taboo. Um I also think that sometimes people are worried about what it means uh for their faith if they if they talk about it, like you mentioned. Um you know, I do have these fears. I do have this, and um I find that a lot of people also don't want to talk about it because they have so many things left that they want to do. I I find and this is one of the biggest tragedies of life. I I feel like people put off their life and put off things that they want to do. And I have sat by so many people that said my regret is that I didn't. Instead of what I what I did do, the regret is what they didn't do. And um the the reality of oh my gosh, I've put off my life for so long for X, Y, and Z reason, and I have all these things I want to do. Um, that that seems to be a challenge for people. So I really kind of spread this idea that we have one life and we have to we have to live it fully. And that that means all the way from if you want to to travel the world doing that, but also advanced directives, right? Like having control over your life, your whole life. I found that a lot of people don't do that, even though we're in a free world. So it's it's a barrier, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Or just being honest about what you really truly want and not being sh ashamed of the choices that you're gonna make, right? Like in terms of death and dying, like I just had a conversation with my father a few weeks ago, and and you know, there has been such a taboo in his mind to be cremated. And and then he's like, well, but you know, if I'm dead and you have to decide, like, you know, you're gonna do whatever you want. And I was like, I actually don't care. Like, if you don't want to be cremated, I'm happy to like schlep your, you know, your body to where you need to be. Like, I it's not that problem. But there, but there is like, you know, there is this intimate choice making that you have to trust somebody with. And if you're not, and if you and if you're not brave enough or you have somebody who is who is sturdy enough to hear and see who you are, then it does create barriers to being honest about what we want.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

And it creates such a trauma for people as well. I I work with so many people that say, I don't know if my family member, my loved one wanted this. Okay. Right. And and so they're living with this trauma of did I make the right decision? Because the conversations were never had, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So true.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

So what frightens you about the end of life?

SPEAKER_02 16:06

I think for me, the the fear is um, well, it used to be that I didn't do or say the things I wanted to.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

It used to be.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Um, and and I say that because my my father passed away very young. I feel like it's very young. He was 56 years old. And I I think the biggest loss for me was all the things that he didn't do or didn't get to do. And I I sit by so many people that that have that same fear. And so now my family probably thinks that I'm absolutely insane.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Um, if I told you some of the things that I have done recently that I am so proud of, but my mother's probably shaking her head. Um I just want to make sure that I do the things, say the things. Um, so I I am big on that. No matter, no matter if my obituary is in 50 years or in five minutes, it will be amazing. And I'm very proud of that right now. Very, very, very proud of that. Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Yeah. Yeah. Just looking at the um the amount of letters behind your name, it's like, whoa, this person does a lot of different things and a lot of work. Um I would love to hear some of the tell me, tell us some of those wonderful things that you would that people will be surprised about.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

I think that would be absolutely so. Yes, for sure. So some of the things that I have decided when my daughter um graduated from college or from high school, pardon me, I decided to buy an RV. I've never been in an RV. But I decided I was gonna buy a new RV and I was gonna travel the country. Which, by the way, is much more fun in the movies than it really is. I have too many shoes for this. I have way too many shoes to live in an RV, but I did it and I lived all over. Um my husband and I, we would uh when we were living in New Mexico, we would park and we would walk across the border just to have lunch. And I lived in uh as a very southern girl, living in northern Minnesota and North Dakota was a very big deal. Um 10 feet of snow and negative 50 degrees, not my bag, but I saw the northern lights there. And so I had to buy a house there, right? That meant something big. And I I take these uh these trips, uh, these surprise trips. I took two last year where I don't know where I'm going until I get to the airport. And they're out of who buys the ticket? It's uh it's a company. It's a company called Journey, and you answer a questionnaire and then you just kind of show up and it's so cool. And I travel all over the country and I gave up um my very secure, what I thought very important job, um with all the stability, because I I was sitting in church one day and I was um I was actually praying, like I have no idea what something happened in our in our family, and and and I thought, I don't know what happens next, but I I know I can't continue, you know, 100 hours a week and all these things. And I I just kind of heard anchoring your strength, rise in your purpose, and I'm not a very creative person, so I knew that was not for me. And so I opened anchor and rise therapy. Um I I taught belly dancing, I'm a certified scuba diver, um, uh ride motorcycles. I have my motorcycle license. Um, I started paddle boarding, and I'm I'm pretty close. So all of these I probably could list like a million more, but I just have the best time. And I'm so happy in my life. And I feel like, again, no matter how long it is, my bituary is pretty amazing.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

I love that. I uh I I try to live that way. I have a kiddo who's sickly, so she kind of tethers me home a lot more than I would like to be. But I have I say, like, I love everything you've done.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

That's good for you for living. And my daughter has a medical condition as well. And so um she kind of looked at me maybe a couple years ago and said, Mom, I'm not like other people. And I said, No, you're not. So let's live your way. And so we um we just have the best time. We just came back from uh from Mexico like a few days ago. That's why I'm kind of sick. I was on a cruise dancing with everybody. So I just live this life, and it has nothing to do with money I spend. It is just meeting new people and having new experiences and truly just living my life without any uh any regrets of missing anything.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

And I love that. Yeah, that does bring up something though that I think is important for us to talk about here, and that is that you know, three of us maybe um have the capac I'm sure you work with people who um have the have don't have the um resources to just decide to to take a trip, right? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

And I wonder what kind of work you've done with those folks to you know how how does that work for somebody who can't afford to maybe can't afford to get dinner to absolutely I um so one of my favorite cases was a a child that I worked with. Um and it it forever shaped me. This child, their their biggest goal in life was to um watch their siblings open Christmas gifts. It was the summer in Georgia. Um but they knew that Christmas probably wouldn't come for them. And so um we focused on the things that Like we focused on going to the local park because you know what? People live all around amazing things that other people travel for and they never take part in those. Um so taking family pictures, something that's big. Um I do a lot of legacy planning with my clients, and so writing those letters, uh and and not because we're anticipating the end of our life, just because there's things that we need to say and do.

SPEAKER_03 22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

But there's something you enjoy. Like I I sat with a friend a few weeks ago just so she could teach me how to knit and crochet. Um these things that don't cost anything that are living. That's what living is, right? Is is making sure that um when you wake up, that at the end of the day you could say, gosh, I'm really, really proud of what I did. And for me, some of those things are just like looking at the ocean right by it. But often we're too busy to spend that time or or to to hear stories from our family and and what their life was like to to make new friends and to turn on a song so loud and just dance like no one's watching you. Um that's living, I believe. So uh that's really things that I focus on. And the the trips and things that I've moved to, those have just been recent things. But but my life has to do with the every day and and making the most out of every moment.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Yeah, very good. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

And I and oh go ahead, I was just I was just gonna mention the fact that I love what you said about um next door is something that people would drive to. I mean, you know, I live next to the um Sailor Sea here with mountains on all around me, and Ana Luisa lives in Colorado with mountains, and and I often will go out to the beach and think, wow, people travel thousands of miles to have this kind of a viewing.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I just want to go back to Joaquil's question about, you know, we have means, the three of us have means. Uh we are so privileged with our financial pieces that we do get to have adventures and drop everything and go, right? So I I want to recognize that somebody listening to this may be like, I work two jobs, I have, you know, family members to take care of. And for them, I you know, it just occurred to me like I think as a as a community at large, you know, bringing life and light into other people's daily things should be the impetus for us to make sure like people may not have access to everything that others do. I mean, we don't have billionaire access for sure. And they're not doing anything to make sure like they're helping our day-to-day, but we can do that for others. And I think that is that is the gift that I hope I can I can move forward. And like, are you living the life you want? Maybe somebody's be like, no, I'm like tired, I'm poor, I'm hungry, I've got sick kids. It's like, how can I step in and help you? How can I move in and say, I'm gonna take you everybody ever to lunch, right? Like, or whatever. But giving them that little piece of life love would be great.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Absolutely. And that that I, you know, the story, the biblical story about of the woman that gave what she had. And I think that's beautiful. Like, you know, when we help people with with our means, whatever those are, and they don't have to be financial. Right. Um, they could literally be that you can teach someone to sew a button and that means so much to them. Or you teach them to make a a new recipe, or um, you know, you you share you're like, hey, let's read a book together, let's go to the library together and and discuss it at the end of the month. Like though that's life. It's not the travels and the and you know, all the things. It's it's the connections that we make and the and the impact that we leave.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

I I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Yeah, I love that. That's really so important. And and really, I think for anybody that's you know, getting up in the book in the morning and thinking about what can I do to be helpful to somebody today, what can I do to um raise somebody else's life is something that's gonna help, it's gonna make your life better. And it's gonna be, you know, that's I that's frankly my goal of life.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

That's the legacy we leave behind.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Absolutely. Yeah. What else do you wish we'd have asked you? I guess would be a good question to finish up with.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Um when I was uh looking at your podcast, the thing that just kept uh coming to my mind was having these open conversations about what life is, what end of life is, what grief and loss is. And our world is just consumed with grief and loss. Um I think that has been past so many times. And and so um I always come with a grief and loss perspective. And I I tell people when I meet with them, whether it's personally or professionally, that I work a lot with grief and loss. And um the thing I hear is, well, I've lost so and so, but it's been a while. And I said, Well, you know, again, grief and loss is so much more. It's um it's when our our hair doesn't look the way we thought it would. And that might sound crazy, but that that impacts people, and I don't just mean the hairstyle, you know, when when our health is not as good as we thought it would be, when um our finances are not what they thought it would be, when our relationships are not the way that we thought they would look. Just overall the movie version and the the reality version being very different, that's grief and loss. And I just think having an open space to talk about that is is really what we feel as a society.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm glad we can offer that here. And we like uh glad that you're doing that work that you're doing. And um is there any other I I was gonna I think we we also usually like to find out what kind of work what kind of things you do yourself when you're feeling like you're overwhelmed and and you've got you know you've got a lot of different therapies that you've worked with. Is there anything that you would recommend, I guess, to to our our audience?

SPEAKER_02 28:10

Absolutely. So I I am um I keep a gratitude list and I add to it every day. And I want to say this there is no gratitude too small. I encourage my and my clients laugh at me, but um, especially living in Florida now, I will say deodorant. Let's small, but if we have that, we we are thankful. And I I kind of laugh about that, but you know what? I think sometimes people wait for something to be big enough to be thankful for it, but to be thankful for the very small things is amazing. And so I update that list. Um if you saw it, it would it's pages long, and not because I am very blessed, I don't mean it like that, but just because um if we have clothing to put on or um you know, we have a roof over our head, or we have deodorant, or we have a toothbrush, or we have food to eat today, um maybe one person that we can call because we don't have to have five. We just sometimes even the one um to have chapter friends. And when I say chapter friends, they you might not tell them everything, but these may be the people that you like to read with, these may be the people that you like to talk about politics with, whatever works. Um but chapter friends and maybe your faith. And so I really kind of ground myself in that gratitude list. That's that's really important to me. I also need to step outside once per day. I just need to realize that there is there is life out there, and that the world is still moving around, even though there is grief and loss and hurt and um shame and regret and all these things, there is so much life that is still out there to be lived, and that's the way that I ground myself. Um, prayer is important to me. I I read, and just so you know, um I am big on music, and I think I can dance probably far better than I actually can. And so it is very important for to once per day to show my best moves. Um I encourage people to to play their favorite uh playlist in the background. And honestly, if you tap your foot or you start, you know, moving your head, that is healing. That is healing, just though those small movements that get us out of the ruts, that's really how I ground myself.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Yeah. That's wonderful. Thank you. That's great. Really appreciate that. Lisa, any anything else?

SPEAKER_01 30:48

No, this has been such a delight. I appreciate your your living lusciousness. It's just uh what uh I think I live like you, and also I forget that it is such a a delight to be alive and not always thinking about death and dying. Uh and you brought a poem to share. You want to talk about that? I do.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

Um, at my father's um funeral service, they uh they noted the dash poem. And if you haven't ever read it, the short, I encourage you to check it out. But the the short version is that when you die, when your tombstone is a birth date and a death date. But the thing that matters most is the dash in between. And to my mother's dismay, I did get a tattoo on that says uh live the dash on my wrist. And I believe that. And um, I try to every day just make sure that I am living to the fullest. Uh, and that is so impactful for me. So that is my my motto is live the dash, and I really do try to encourage others to do the same. And check out the Dash poem, it will absolutely change your life. Do I read a portion of it? Absolutely. It's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

And we'll we'll put it in the podcast notes too.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

Yes, thank you so much. Um, so I read of a man who stood to speak at the funeral of a friend. He referred to the dates on her tombstone from the beginning to the end. He noted that first came the date of her birth and spoke the following date with tears. But he said what mattered most of all was the dash between those years. For that dash represents all the time that she spent on earth uh alive on earth, and now only those who loved her know what that little line is worth. For it matters not how much we own, the cars, the house, the cash. What matters is how we live in love and how we spend our dash. So think about this long and hard. Are there things you'd like to change? For you never know how much time is left that can still be rearranged. If we could just slow down enough to consider what's true and real and always try to understand the way other people feel and be less quick to anger and show appreciation more and love the people in our lives like we've never loved before. If we treat each other with respect and more often wear a smile, remembering that this special dash might only last a while. So when your eulogy is being read with your life's um actions to rehash, what uh would you be proud of the things they say about how you spent your dash?

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Yeah. All right, I love it. Thank you so much for sharing.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Thank you so much, Ashley.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

It's been a real pleasure, and uh, we look forward to learning more about your work. Maybe you'll show up in one of our towns at one point.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Yeah, that would be amazing. Thank you all so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to Charles Easton, the composer of the original music you are listening to now.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

And of course, thanks to you, our audience, and all of our amazing guests. Please come back next week for another great episode. Share this with your friends, family, and community. We hope you will subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Boodka, and TikTok. And of course, if you have a code end of life story to share, please reach out. We're always here to hear from you.