SPEAKER_04 0:01

Welcome to End of Life Conversations, our weekly wonderings, digest, what have you. Uh this week. I think uh Ana Luisa came with us, came to us uh with with something pretty potent, juicy, and pertinent. So uh why don't you take it away, Ana Luisa?

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Yes. So I found an article this past weekend about a woman who was uh convicted of killing her mother in Colorado. Uh the headline said, Colorado woman pleads guilty to manslaughter in mothers assisted suicide. And it uh it arrested me because we do have medical aid in dying in this counter uh well in this state, and she didn't use it. And so I sent the article to my my friends here, and we were talking about it because again, there's nothing wrong in ending your life. There's a movement to support people who are who are suffering either through terminal illnesses or and like in Canada through depression. Um so I'm curious to talk about how did this woman end up having to pay$25,000 to medical aid tying charity and complete 80 hours of community service because beyond two years probation.

SPEAKER_04 1:23

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

How did she get tried for this in a place where we consider this acceptable, the end of life? So let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Well, and we've we've also interviewed uh one of our interviews, one of our podcasts a while back was with a woman who uh went down to visit her mom in Georgia, was it, or Tennessee?

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Tennessee, yeah, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Tennessee, I think, yeah. And she um the doctor's orders there were for more morphine and nobody was giving it to her mom. And so she gave her mom the dose that was allotted for.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Yeah. And her mom died. And then um some person in the hospice that that she was in at the time, um, she thinks, I don't think there was any proof who did it, but somebody turned her in for murder, and the police and she didn't even know till months later. I remember that story. Yeah, that she had been that she was uh you know on wanted for murder. Right. But she in her in her case, she was she had the where wherewithal, the financial and the time and whatever and the intelligence that she fought it and she got off. She was exonerated eventually. But but we one of the things we talked about in that case was how different that can be for people who don't have those kind of resources, right? And this may be better more of a this kind of case might be more like that. Maybe this person, if they'd had a lot of money and and resources, might have been able to fight this and and win. But I I and I think it does come back to this question of do we honor people's agency at the end of life? And do we allow them to make these choices? And and there's so many different ways that one can end one's life.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Um, and so but in this case, we don't know if the agency was actually taken away or if there was foul play. So uh I I'm gonna s settle into the spot that she is uh she is not innocent in this. I believe that she probably should have been reprimanded more because there was no conversation with anybody who could tell us mom really wanted to die. And uh she just decided for herself. So I think that it's so important for us not to keep these things to ourselves. If you want to use medical aid and dying or commit suicide or or what's it, not commit suicide, it's to end one own life.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Yeah. Whatever it is. Take your life, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Take your life, whatever it is. I think you have to be very judicious about who you tell, how you tell it, and state your your reasons because it's not, you know, things don't happen just kind of it's secretive. This felt very secretive to me.

SPEAKER_04 4:02

Right. So, so in there's a lot of speculation, right? Even the even the article talks a lot uh about you know, what are the unclear things and what are the motivations and things like that. Um, but I think there's some really like concrete pieces to this that we can talk about in the realm of, you know, uh assisted suicide, uh uh medical aid in dying, things like that. Um, you know, like like you said, there's there's the question that there was uh uh will and and inheritance money involved, and that complicates things. Um I think I read that there were there were uh text exchanges planning this, but that the evidence presented as I understand it was that the mother had requested this assistance. And then it was hand handled internally with a couple family members in sourcing the means to to end her mother's life. Um and then there was a piece right at the end where like the the like character testimonies uh of the assisted living where the mother lived said that she was suffering. There was a high level of suffering, and and it was it was unclear in the article. I'm just gonna refer to it for a second here. Uh neighbors who lived in Milsey Roller's independent living facility also attended Friday's hearing. They told this news agency they were happy with the outcome and saw how much Milsey was suffering.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 5:53

That's sort of an unclear statement about whether they're they're happy with the court results or the result that she was released from her suffering. Yes. Exactly. Um but like you're saying, Ana Luisa, they're part of the issue is that they didn't seem to go through the channels available for medical aid and dying. I think it raises questions about um, you know, what is a terminal diagnosis? You know, if if you're aware that your state has these, maybe you're not even aware, but if you are aware, you know, do you make a prejudgment that mom's not terminal? And so they're not going to give it to us. And do you get more at risk if you don't go through the proper channels? These are all just like, you know, questions that come up from me that that make this a muddy thing, and we're in such a new, a new realm of this being being an acceptable thing, and it's not available in all states. And so you know around the world. Yes. Yeah. So so scattering those seeds, uh, you you two who have uh lots and lots of experience talking with people about this and Ana Luisa, um, you know, your you know uh being in a place where this is part of, you know, part of the the legal avenues. Uh I turn the floor over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Well, you know what? I I really appreciate all these um kind of comments about it's it's a very big orb that we're all having to look at, right? Um I am curious, like had she known that Colorado has a medical aid and dying, you know, uh route that people could take. Uh, did she try it? Did she ask doctors? I think that as soon as you start telling doctors that mom isn't feeling well and she really just wants it be done, I mean, at least that information would have been double checked and people would have said, you know what, it's like it's this is a real thing. Mom is really struggling. So uh yeah. Are we not curious enough? I don't know. It's also kind of crazy, right? You don't want to Google how can I kill my mom in the state of Colorado because you don't know what aspect of that is being carried off to some, you know, nefarious reaches. So I understand, I both understand the potential for having made this big snafu. And also I'm an I'm a little disappointed that this person maybe not have taken the time to research this a little bit better.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah, yeah. And it it does raise the question for all of us, really, uh and our listeners. Um, how much do we understand about what's legal in our jurisdictions or what's available to us? And one of the things that's uh an issue at in the in the country is that it may not be legal in your part of the country. Um but a lot of them, you can, like Oregon and Colorado at least, you can move there and be a citizen overnight. Right. And um, and our organizations available to help with all that. But people probably don't know that, right? Right. And so um part of the part of the big issue here is just uh education, letting people know and and finding a way to make sure people understand what's available or what's available not just in their jurisdiction, but what's available around the country. And then the other piece of that is affordability. People only somebody with enough wealth is going to be able to travel to another state and book a place to be, you know, and pay for the pay for the prescription and all that. Um and then with the the third thing that occurred to me is that, and I've seen this, is that um many medical organizations that your doctor might be a part of are um based on a religious, you know, or owned by a religious organization that that refuses to do that. So you might run into any one of those issues.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Or the assisted living homes actually also are very uh pretty staunch about people aren't going to be doing this in our in our place.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

I just want to clarify one piece, Joaquil. If you are interested in medical aid and dying in Colorado specifically, you have to live here for six months prior to being able to access that as a as an advertisement.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Maybe it was Oregon, then I think Oregon was the one maybe who said you can come and join.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

You can just come, right. Yeah. Colorado is not the same way. So you would have to be here six months. Oh and again, this is just exemplifies how every single county, state aspect, you know, it is going to be very different. And it behooves everybody to really research it or ask questions. I mean, the death and dying industrial complex does have people who will share information with you. There's websites, there's all kinds of stuff that you can tap into.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Yeah. I know back in the day when this was first being talked about, people were saying, well, just go to Sweden. Right. Right. Which again, you know, may not be a practical solution for most of the people. Right. They've got the death pods.

SPEAKER_04 11:13

Right. And as we're talking about this, I also you you touched on it a little bit earlier, uh one of you. That uh, you know, the like asking somebody that can also be really scary. If you're if we don't have the language and if you don't know how welcome that conversation is, right. Like the fear of of saying to a doctor, I think mom's ready to be done, especially in the way that the the medical system is so obsessed with the preservation of life, yeah. The fear of like, oh, they're just gonna say, no, we're gonna do all these things to try and and and extend life regardless of quality of life.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:02

Yes. And I wonder if that's something you can't. Am I gonna get am I gonna get come under fire? And is, you know, are they gonna call the cops on me because I say my mom wants to die?

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Right.

SPEAKER_04 12:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Well, and this is, you know, a part that we may not want to think about, uh, because it's a value system for yourself, but does that go into your advanced care directive? So that there will never be a doubt that, you know, in my directive, I say if I'm suffering in these ways, either terminal illness, pain, or mental suffering from whatever, you know, I will want to uh I am open to the use of medical aid and dying and you know, alleviate any of the pressures of uh of criminality for any of my family members or where I'm staying, right? Uh we I'm sure people don't think about it that far in advance. Um, I know that when I talk to my children about this, I I have a both an ethical and a theological reason why I wouldn't choose medical aid and dying. But I would use uh the stopping of eating and drinking. So, you know, my kids know that if this, if I get to that point, I always tell my daughter, if I forget to ask to eat, just don't feed me.

SPEAKER_04 13:19

Right. That's a really that's a good way to to draw that line. Yeah, really, really clear. If I can't remember that I need to eat, don't remind me, please.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

And you know, she's always because uh there are times when I'm talking to her and we talk about, you know, if I get dementia or Alzheimer's, um, that you know, she's welcome to leave me in the woods hiking and I probably will go back to the earth in a very natural way. But she's like, I don't want to get, you know, charged with your murder or elder abuse. Yeah. And so this exemplifies, you know, that as a potential for all of us who really do want to give our loved ones agency, but haven't told people like, you know, this is who what they want. Or I say this is, you know, don't feed me. If I over if I forget, don't feed me.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

And you said before, and I love it, that the idea that, you know, if I'm in the woods and I tip over, just roll me off the trail, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Yeah. But uh but it occurs Samaritans happening.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Yeah, exactly. Well, and or you know, some poor hiker down the road might find your bones and go, what the fuck? You know, and then yeah, and then then we got a police, then the police show up, right? Right. So um, and then that yeah, so that's um as much as I love that idea. I do think you would you would have to be very specific to say in your advanced care directive, this is what I want to have happen.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Let me let me leave me in the woods. And yeah, that's my choice.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

And uh I don't know if we could do that, actually. I wonder if that would be a thing. Although, you know, my daughter would be looking for me, and like there there would be all these kind of like uh I was gonna say shoots into ladders. Logistical challenges. You know, like mom's here, but oh, here's just coming back.

SPEAKER_04 15:09

When you were talking about that, I was like, man, how how would you how would you mark your body or or carry something that said, This was my choice, there's no foul play.

SPEAKER_03 15:23

Right.

SPEAKER_04 15:24

Do you get like a medical grade implant that even if all they find is your bones, there's a little plaque that you've had implanted in your arm that says, I chose this, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Well, I think again, you know, this is really hard because people don't generally have those and or professionals don't look for them. So what does it mean? I get an advanced care directive plan, I sign it and it's notarized, and it's it's decim, it's uh it's not decimated, it's it's given out to disperse to all the people who it would potentially affect. Right? Friends and family and doctors.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

Yeah, yeah. Well, and and we know, we've heard many stories, and um, that once you're gone, uh it's like people may or may not pay any attention to what you wrote down, you know. You that's why that's why these conversations are so important to just be allow the people to understand that what you want and and get to the place where they are comfortable with what you want and will do what you want. Right. And that doesn't happen just by writing it down and signing it, you know. Um, you really have to have the conversation with those people.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

So right. And it changes, right? Like, yeah, I mean, I say this now, and I mean, I don't think I'm gonna change my mind, but I want to encourage people this to say, like what you say today and you've signed, yeah, it's a living uh will, it's a living document. You can change your mind. It's okay. You can also change your mind in a different direction, right? Like it's but talk to people, record yourself. In this day and age, there's really no reason why people don't have the facility to express their wishes via a video, a phone message, a text, an audio message. There's a lot of ways to get this information out to the people who who care.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Yeah, yeah, and make sure they've they know it. And and you know, we we talk about this when we talk about advanced care directives, that as you said, it's something that'll be changed. It has to be, since it's a legal document, you have to go back and have it signed again.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

You know, and note that the other one is no good anymore.

unknown 17:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

But you do and you have to talk to everybody, like you said, yeah, make sure the doctors and your loved ones know this is a new one. And but uh but yeah, I mean, you know, given that those oper uh those opportunities or those ways that we have to to record what we want and make sure people know what we want, this kind of thing where somebody dies by the hand at the hands of their children um could be avoided altogether, you know, if if that conversation had happened. And if people knew about what was available in their jurisdictions.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Now let me ask you this. Do you think that she she was charged with manslaughter and she's doing community service and has to pay$25,000 to a medical aid charity? What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_04 18:15

I think that's actually I I think that it is a good example of restorative justice and like an educational punishment. You know, like the money goes directly to furthering the resources of the system that the state says this is where you should have gone.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:45

This is where you should have gone to have this conversation. And it enables them to research more, you know, uh uh expand their scope, ask these questions, you know, that sort of stuff. And uh did it say where she did the community service, or if it was just you gotta do some community service?

SPEAKER_01 19:03

She didn't it didn't give a specific place. Eight hours is not a lot. Oh eighty hours, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:11

That's a lot, yeah. That's a lot. But I think, you know, I think that's a actually a really fantastic model for for something like this, where you know, I mean, it there's there's the the pieces of of presented suspicion from the prosecution because they're vested in painting a narrative of of wrongdoing and malfeasance and manslaughter and intentional, you know, you know, there was money involved, all that. And we don't know, you know, that's the the the the murkiness of of a legal thing like this. Right. But you know, and and the thing it said, even the judge was like, I brought, you know, I might have done the same thing in in her situation. And so that indicates to me, you know, that there's a high chance of honest mistake and lack of education, or you know, all of these things that we've been talking about that complicate this issue. And and just in general, moving towards a restorative justice model of like give back to your community, right? Do things that directly relate to to repairing and and expanding what you've got better than throwing her in jail. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

I agree. Although, you know, she the way mom died was with a plastic bag over her head and nitrogen gas bottle. I mean, again, that's just so weird.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

It's like it's that's how they do it in Sweden. I mean, nitrogen is a I thought there was pills. No, and and nitrogen, those little pods that you get can get into. You get in and you push a button, it fills with nitrogen because it's a it's like you but puts you to sleep. It's very painless. So that's you know, I I think they probably did that research, probably did look up how to go mom, you know.

SPEAKER_04 21:01

Right. Which also brings up, you know, that further complicates the narrative of you've done a certain level of research, you've taken a certain level of risk in asking those questions on the internet, you know, where you're at risk of being traced and all of those things. Right. And so why didn't you go in these other directions? But man, this stuff is messy. Like, this stuff is messy, and we don't have really good, consistent tools or education or resources to help guide us in these journeys, and it leads to these kinds of really messy, tragic situations.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I'd agree. And I, you know, as to your question about whether that was the right punishment or not, I I don't tend to well, not I wouldn't say this all the time, but in this case, when I've read, um, it doesn't feel like something I would question the the process. It feels like they did they did the process, they did. It was done the way it's supposed to be done. And I agree. Oh, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

I agree. I'm not I'm not uh beefing with that piece. I just it's like um I don't know. I would I would like to continue to hear this person's, you know, story.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Like maybe she'll come talk to us. Did you learn something?

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Like what you know, how are you supporting others? Or you know, I don't know. Just it's just really interesting to me. But you're right. It is restorative justice. And uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

I don't know.

unknown 22:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

I think we we also, when we talk about end-of-life choices, um one of the things that comes up a lot and we've heard it here is people might choose that because they they they define the thing they don't want to have happen at the end of life as somebody having to take care of them.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Somebody have to wipe their butt, and that's the end, that's the that's the line, you know, they don't want to cross. Um and yet, you know, again, that's I think that's something we could spend a lot more time talking about as as companions on the plan on the planet. You know, it's like, well, I I don't mind wiping your butt, you know. And I've I did it when you were a child, I'll do it now, you know. Um, so just kind of that's another stigma I think that people kind of have, you know, it's like I don't want to be a burden to my family or to my beloved. So when I become a burden, sign the papers, you know.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

So I I think that's something else we could spend time thinking about together as a you know, as a community, um, or with our loved ones. It's like really what what is that line that you don't want to cross? And is it legitimate, really? You know, because we we'd be happy to wipe your, you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yes and no. It's kind of hard too, because uh I just had a friend whose dad passed away last week and uh I I don't know that it was over the dignity piece. Uh it was his anxiety, he was up all night, and so nobody was sleeping. And right, like it's not always just the physical act of of caregiving.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

It's um the burden part, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

It's the burden part, it's the unknown, and especially when people don't know what they're embarking on. Right? Like these it was uh my friend and her stepmom, and and I kept telling her, it's like when your stepmom has like is in charge at that moment, you need to sleep, you need to rest. Because she was like, Oh, I need to clean the house and I need to do this. We're so behind because the house was filled with detritus from 50 years of living in the same place. And she wanted to get ahead of that. But I'm like, you don't need to do that now. You have to get rest. You have to pretend he's a baby and you rest when he rests because it's you don't know what the end will be. You'll be up for 24 hours with a you know, an anxious person or whatever. So I I think at some point we need to talk about what it looks like, what it could look like. And there's again a spectrum of what it looks like at the end of life. And not having this information makes people make choices uh on both sides. Like I don't want my kids uh to take care of me, and also it'll be easy or it'll be too hard, or I don't know what's going on and such. So yeah, yeah, it's hard to do it.

SPEAKER_04 25:19

And there's the there is that that complex dynamic of allowing ourselves to be more vulnerable and also honoring a person's lines. Like if the loss of ability to care for one's own hygiene is a really hard line, we can't force, you know, we can have conversations and encourage people maybe to be okay with that, but I don't even know if that's an appropriate course of action to try and pressure somebody into into a level of vulnerability that they're really not okay with. And if that's their line to just say, I get, I get that. That that makes a lot of sense that that once you can't care for your physical form, you know, yeah. If I can't remember to eat, right? But there's a don't force me to eat.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

That's right. There's also the flip side of that, right? So in in my friend's situation, her dad was adamant that he didn't want to go into hospice. Like, you know, he's got terminal cancer and he weighs more than the my friend and her stepmom. And he was becoming incontinent. He was becoming very anxious all night long, waking up very upset and screaming, and and they were trying to figure out meds. These two women were alone with him. And I said to her, My friend, it's just like La Legend League says about breastfeeding. When it's not okay for one participant in this relationship, it's okay to say no more. I was like, so when it becomes overwhelming for you and your stepmom to continue caregiving, I don't care how much she like is upset, you need to get help. You need to go where you're safe. Somebody's not going to fall, trying to take into the bathroom or not sleeping for days on end. So it's a it's it's so wildly, you know, there's a lot of places along this spectrum that we all need to be very honest and clear headed about what we're willing to take on.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Yeah. Yeah. It takes a real deep sense sensitivity and compassionate listening and paying attention. And and the worst thing that can happen and the worst thing that happens when we're over is it just doesn't get talked about at all. Because it's hard. You know, like we're saying, there's a lot to it. It's very hard. Um and people just instead of dealing with hard, they just say, let's just not pay attention to it, you know, maybe not go that's right.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:53

Keep going as is and hope that it'll resolve on its own. Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Or or family members will show up, or you know, everybody's hopeful that something will help them. I have to just tell you, I am planning my trip that I'm leaving for in a few weeks. And so I I joined trusted house sitters. I'm going to see if I can house sit different places so I, you know, for my my place. And I just had a conversation this morning with a woman who has two elder, two dogs, one elderly dog. And I asked her, I was like, what's the hardest thing about taking care of your space? And she's like, Oh, it's my 17-year-old dog who is incontinent and she's up all night trying to go to the bathroom. And then if she soils herself, you need a cleaner. And, you know, we went on and talked, and I said, I am under resourced and I'm not capable of taking care of your elder dog. I appreciate this offer to stay at your house, but uh I have a very large caregiving uh, you know, bundle here in my personal home that I I was looking forward to just like having ease on this trip that I'm taking. So I'm unable to do this. And she was great. She was like, Thank you so much for being honest. She's like, because and that's the same thing we need to bring into our loved ones as they're aging. Like, be very aware of where you're at and how much resource you have personally to be able to give to others. And sometimes it's really easy for me. I don't mind, but I need a lot of rest these days. And I, you know, yeah, it's you gotta be. I think the question we always ask people, how do you resource yourself is really legitimate in all this package of end of life.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and we that's that's true even if you're not talking about end of life, right? Just like you said, caring for your caring for the day-to-day life when you're raising kids or you're working or you're just trying to, you know, get enough money to buy dinner, you know.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

I mean, there are different levels.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

All of those different places are places where we have to pay close attention and be willing to look at the hard stuff and talk about it and deal with it. Yeah. Well, that's um been a fun conversation.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

As usual. As usual.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it uh it brought up one that we might think about another time is to talk more about um what what does it look like when somebody's dying?

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Yeah. Let's do that because I think it's important.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

Yeah, because I think it would help people. And I've seen some good talks about that. So we could riff off of theirs or we could make up our own or whatever. But uh so till next time, everybody, thank you for being here. Yes, please subscribe, tell all your friends, and uh, we'd love to see you next time.

SPEAKER_04 30:31

And we'll put the the interview with the uh the article and the the conversation that we had um with the lady who who came under fire for her marking thing. We'll put that in the show notes too.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Yeah, yes, perfect.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

All right, adios, adios the last conversations at the end of life. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to Charles Heastan, the composer of the original music you are listening to now.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

And of course, thanks to you, our audience, and all of our amazing guests. Please come back next week for another great episode. Share this with your friends, family, and community. We hope you will subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, and Substack. Each guest's additional information will be found in the podcast notes. And of course, if you have a good end of life story to share, please reach out. We are always eager to hear from you.