SPEAKER_00 0:01

Well, you know, on this show we absolutely know that most of us were never taught how to talk about death, right? And that silence has cost us a lot. Cost more than we realize, I think. In this episode, we get to speak to Chandra Thomas Whitfield. She shares what she's learned while covering aging, end of life, and the death positive movement, and the words that we use about death she says that they shape how we live, you know, they shape how we grieve, they shape how prepared we are when it actually matters. And so whether you work in the death positive space like we tend to do in what many of our guests, or you're just somebody navigating loss or aging or a future, um, this conversation can help you right where you are.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

That's right. In this episode, we'll be discussing number one, why the language around death and aging keeps us stuck. And there are words and euphemisms that we're using, and we give you options to say something else. Number two is how can you start planning for the end of the of your life or a loved one's life before that crisis is right in front of you, right on top of you, right around you. And number three is why community and relationships are the most overlooked part of aging well. Chandra Thomas Whitfield is a journalist whose work explores the human side of aging, dying, and what it means to live fully in the face of both. If you've ever avoided this conversation, the one about death, and you're gonna be dying, even for yourself. That's you just be aware of this. This episode is a gentle, honest, and practical place to start.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

So stay tuned.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Join us.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Hey everybody, welcome. We are so excited today to be talking with Chandra Thomas Whitfield. Chandra is the co-host and producer of Colorado Matters, an interview-style daily public-air affair show on Colorado Public Radio. She is an award-winning multimedia journalist. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, Essence, Ebony, NBC News, NPR, the Huffington Post, etc. In 2020, she completed a Leonard C. Goodman Institute for Investigative Reporting Fellowship with In The Times magazine, during which she hosted and produced the In the Gap podcast about pay inequity and discrimination, how it impacts the lives and livelihoods of black women in the American workforce. Very important for us to hear about.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

So cool, yes. I am so delighted. I am a lifelong newspaper and radio listener, and I, you know, I listened to a lot of the Colorado Public Radio news, but I found an article that Chandra wrote, and I immediately emailed her and said, tell us more about this end-of-life piece that you're working on. She has a lot of great stories about aging and dying, and she's also won the 2024 Colorado Association of Black Journalists of the Year award. So I am delighted. Please share with us what has inspired you to do this work. And thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

I have to uh send the check in the mail for all these accolades, you know. Woo! It's Monday, we need it. I know. Well, I always tell people my mantra was real ripe for food. So that came that came in a lot of different ways. So wherever I can be published, I got there.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Beautiful. I love it. You are a hero of mine.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Yeah. So um, yes, um, so really a lot of the work that I've explored, life and death, has been in our series on Colorado Public Radio called Aging Matters. And what we discovered um kind of really by accident was that uh those 65 and up are is the fastest growing group in our state. And uh the numbers are expected to continue to explode over the next 20 years. And um, I also was inspired personally because I am I am a member of the sandwich generation, if you've all heard that term. Yes. And I honestly had not heard the term until I was already in it, unfortunately. I was very surprised. But basically, that is those of us who are caring for, you know, school-aged children and also caring for an older adult, usually a parent or loved one. And so, boy, that's been a ride in itself. And so it really just kind of gets you thinking about life and what you want to leave when you leave this planet. And so I will definitely say I've learned a lot uh in caring for my mom who lives with us. I have two sons and I'm married. My mom is retired, uh kind of forcibly retired through COVID, and um, you know, just kind of dealing with health challenges and loss and life, and it's it's really got me thinking also about how I want to do this when it's my turn. And hopefully no time soon. But I think uh I think the sooner you think about it and put it in your head and really kind of meditate on what it all means, I think we all will come up with what we consider important and what we want to be our legacy.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Yeah. That's right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's one, that's that's the mission we're on here is to have people talking about this. The more we talk about it, the less conflicting it'll be or less trouble it'll be for our loved ones uh when that time comes. And so it's really important to talk about it. Uh, so I appreciate it. Again, thank you for that perspective. Um, tell us more about this work that you're doing uh in the um in this podcast. We said you're gonna do be doing a podcast later, possibly, or just the article. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Well, actually, um our show is a daily um interview style show that appears on Colorado Public Radio. Um, but this is a segment within my show, which is called Colorado Matters, which comes on at 9 a.m. Mountain Standard Time here in uh Colorado, Denver. And um, and also it rebroadcasts in the evenings if you missed it. And it's also available on demand, which makes it a podcast. Right. Yes. Um, but really in this series, um, we did talk, we did talk to um a chaplain who does a lot with end of life and just kind of hearing his thoughts and reflections on what people say. Um, in his case, this gentleman based out of Boulder was talking about how he talks to people who have been given a terminal illness and they know that they are going to die soon. And he sits with them and talks to them. And um, and he he really just kind of talked a lot about how they are very reflective on relationships. I think that's what stood out to me was at the end of the day, I mean, we we spend so much time in our society about, you know, fashion and material things like cars and homes and all that. But it seems like the the gist of what I've gotten from a lot of these conversations that this gentleman had, and also just talking to people, you know, I'm in that stage where a lot of people are losing their family members, their loved ones, their spouses, children. I mean, a bit of everything is that at the end of life, you are going to care about the relationships that you sustain and how you connected with people. And that's a great thing for me because I like people. I know some people know, um, which is why I am a journalist because I like talking to people. I like hearing people's perspectives on things, but I do treasure um relationships. I'm from New Orleans uh uh New originally, and um, we are all about family and special times and celebrations. All we need is like a sack of crawfish and some drinks, and we have a party going. So I think um I'm I'm glad that I had that experience being from New Orleans because it's kind of one of these places where the the family connection, you know, like you before Hurricane Katrina, my entire immediate family lived in the same zip code. Like you don't even see that very often. Unfortunately, Hurricane Katrina happened in 2005, very devastating. Um, and my grandmother, who was 77 at the time of the hurricane, came to live with me, and that became a very big life experience because I never imagined living with my grandmother as an adult, but she got to live in my house. And I said, Oh, I get to say this is my house. But um, but no, my grandmother spent her last years in Atlanta with me and um also my family. And um, as as horrible and horrific as Hurricane Katrina was for many of us, um, you know, to basically be rendered homeless in a day, um, your entire immediate community, not just your family, like the entire community, um, it became a blessing for me to spend those last years with my grandmother, who I'd always been close with. And um I just began to treasure that intergenerational experience, which also inspired me to invite my own mother to come live with us here in Denver. Uh, because we have children. And and it's just such a back to the whole situation about uh the thoughts about relationships, like knowing that my kids will have really strong memories of their grandparents, including my mom who lives with us. Like they have memories. I think those are going to be things that will be comforting to all of us in our last days that we had that connection. And I was able to have that with my grandparents in New Orleans and also even when I moved away. So I think that it's really just taught me that it's very important to keep the connections going. And we, you know, just like we're doing today, use technology, lose, use social media, use the phone, group texting. I think that I I I would really want to encourage those who are concerned about their relationships or quality of them, that you can you can reach out now. Um I think there's a yeah, I think there's like a lot of belief, yeah, that oh, it's over, I missed it, I messed up. But I would say what I get from podcasts like you all do and those I've been talking to is it's never too late. Reach out, just say hello and just see what happens.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Yeah, it's always worth it. It's always worth it. I really appreciate that you've kind of recreated that family connection that a lot of us are missing in this culture to um, you know, the intergenerational family and how important that is. So, yeah, thank you for that reminder. I hope our audience takes that to uh to heart and really does. You know, yeah, reach out.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Well, and it and it's also I have to I have to intercept here too, because um, I just got done with a week visiting a friend of mine, and she had a neighbor who was 84, and he passed away two years ago. And I have to say, when I lived, I this was in Guatemala, and I lived in Guatemala, I loved like he'd get up early and ride his bike around, and and I knew they were close because they were neighbors. But what I didn't realize is that he really cared for her in so many ways, like, you know, made coffees for her when she was leaving town. And when her father was dying here in the United States, he he left her voice messages. And and she and I sat uh last Monday, actually. Um, we went for a hike and we listened to all of his voice messages that he had left for her throughout the last year because he was like, checking in, I'm thinking of you. How's your cat? How's your dad? Your dad doesn't know me, but I'm sending a hug. And I just, you know, I was thinking, I pine for family because I don't have like blood family, but I should be doing that too. I should be sending voice messages to friends and saying, I'm just thinking I love you. And you know, and and that's and this, you know, I'm I'm a lead eye at heart, but I want to leave voice messages for my friends, which I did this morning on my walk after I finished. I sat down and I left some voice messages for folks. So I appreciate you just said that because it's not just grandmas, but it could be a lovely neighbor who could also be included in your in your life that way.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

Yeah, and it's funny you mentioned that because I have a a friend that I talk to pretty often, and she's you know, she's single and has no children, so she lives on her own. Um, and you know, she she has a good network, but um, she recently injured herself walking her dog to your point. Um, she fell down a hill walking her dog. And, you know, that was very jarring for a person living alone because even getting to the doctor, you can't drive. You had she had a cast. And so one of the things that touched me was she told me that there was a neighbor who lived in her um who lived near her. I think he, I think she lives in a neighborhood, and he just would just check on her. And um he, and this was pretty recently because it was right before the holidays, like the winter holidays. So she had to go back and forth. She was having to figure out transportation, but this gentleman would go and run, you know, if you need anything at the store or if you need to pick anything up and all that. Well, I hate to, you know, take this in a such a heartbreaking turn, but that that man died and she didn't know because she had not heard from him maybe, so let's just say maybe February or March. But um, but at the same time, I look at this man who I don't know, we don't know if he knew he was dying or not, but just the fact that even in his last days, he was reaching out to a person, helping them in whatever way. And she did not find out. I think someone sent her like a funeral notice, so she had missed everything. But I just felt like, wow, how beautiful that that's her memory of him, and that even to his last day, whether he knew or not, he was offering a helping hand to someone. And that and you and I think that's when you think about end of life, you have to say, how do I want people to remember me? I mean, maybe me being a writer, I'm always kind of writing my obituary in my head. Like, what do I want people to say? Um, and it's funny I'm saying this because when I was in school, um uh we in journalism school, we had to, I know this sounds crazy, we had to write our own obituary. That's good. Yeah. We had to write our own obituary. Um mine was a little, you know, it's kind of like, I don't know about cause of death. That's a little eerie. But but anyway, the the whole point of it was for us to think about like what we want people to say. But of course, it was also to learn to write them. Um and I used to write them as a journalist as well, which, you know, and you kind of feel this pressure like this is the last thing that someone's going to say about this person. And you want to make sure it's accurate and you want to make sure it uh speaks to the spirit of the person. And um, and I I would just say it really made me think about like what I want people to say about me.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah, how do you want to live your life? One day, one day.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

How do you want to live your toxin purple?

SPEAKER_04 16:17

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

That's really great. Really, really. Yeah, it does make you think about how how am I gonna live my life so that people remember, you know, what's the legacy I want to leave, right? Yeah, they remember the good stuff and not the oh my god, how are you glad that one left, you know?

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Well, you want people to be honest because I'm sure you've all been to that funeral where you're like, that's not good person. Yeah, like who is that, you know? So um, and I I unfortunately have had to write several for family members. Um, and I tried to just stay to the heart of it. But um, I will also say that my own journey uh in this, you know, watching my mom, um, and she she has struggled a lot with aging, mainly because she was very independent all her life, you know, just kind of moved the way she wanted to move and took care of things, which I am grateful for because as a child you appreciate that. But, you know, aging comes with a lot of loss, um, mobility, health, uh, losing loved ones. And um, I will just say my mom is doing better. She is doing better, but I will say in the thick of it, as she's navigated a lot of health issues, it's really made me think about like how she has resisted that experience. And I've been giving a lot of thought to how I want to have a positive attitude about it. But it's hard, you know, it's hard when you're used to just getting up and going and not having to depend on a whole bunch of people, and now you do, whether it's medicines, whether it's doctors' appointments, whether it's driving, there's a lot of loss. And so we talked about that on Colorado Matters, the show that I host for Colorado Public Radio. We did a a set a series on grief circles and how some people need to come together with others to share grief and and and don't run from that. Understand that this is a universal experience. We, I mean, I've seen people lose pets, children, parents, judge, all of that. Yeah. So dreams, I think that this is also a time where community is very important. And that's what I've learned from that segment that we did, which was about come together. Sometimes you want one-on-one, but don't underestimate the the value of a group setting where lots of people are sitting in their grief. And you may also be inspired by seeing someone come in in the state that they were in when they first got to the group versus when they've had some time pass. And, you know, I don't think we should feel any pressure to just heal or get over it, but just understand that you're we're all managing loss. I I have, I, you know, even as a person who is not even, you know, I'm not what I would consider extremely close to retirement age, I've lost several of my closest friends, including my best friend, to different diseases. Um, you know, one of my best friends was diagnosed with um cervical cancer. I had friends die in car accidents, um uh unknown health issues. Um I've even seen people, you know, in my past, you know, make the news because of some unfortunate domestic situation. And it's it's really overwhelming. Uh, and and grief just really hits you in the wildest, most random ways. Like you're having a pretty solid day, and then just the slightest sound or scent or a mention of a song, anything can just trigger it. And uh what I've learned in my work uh covering for you know aging matters is just feel it, just lean into it and and go through it because it does help you heal.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Yeah, yeah. I think we're helping a lot of us are in a position now to be of service to each other in that way. And and I mean, a lot of people who are immigrants right now are also suffering a lot of loss. They are you know that they need the same kind of support. So so um it's it's a big part of our lives these days if we're paying attention and if we're wanting to participate in our communities. So yeah, thank you. That's really all important stuff. So go ahead, Ana Luisa.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Yeah, so okay, you are doing your uh your eldering, aging piece for the news. What are the biggest challenges that you find in in that work in in trying to convey to people that this actually matters?

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Um, honestly, um, I would say uh it really ended up not being as hard of a sell as I thought, because I think that the reality is we all are caring for someone and also caring for ourselves. You mentioned that you said uh, I don't know, you said something like I'm not a spring chicken or something. But a lot of my friends and colleagues are thinking about their own, um their own mortality. So I think that while you may say, Oh, I'm not retired yet, but people are starting to think about that. So I would say the series actually took off much um faster than I thought because someone is either aging themselves or they're caring for an aging person, or they're just that kind of person where they want to think forward about it. But I would say the biggest thing that I'm trying to get across is that we need to talk about it. Like, you know, I've done a lot of work as a journalist. On suicide and gun violence and domestic violence and all of those things. And I think that we do a disservice by saying, Well, I'm not going to talk about it because that's just going to make someone die, or that's going to that I'm I'm conjuring up like death. And it's like, no. And so I will say, for me, what the series has done is, you know, as my mom is aging, having the conversations about what are your final requests? What are things that are important to you? Even down to what would you want in terms of a service? Do you want a memorial service? Do you want a funeral? Do you want to be cremated? Um, what are what's in place? Uh, I think that we need to talk about these things because I think what gives me anxiety is the thought that I'll be in the midst of the griefs and the loss, and then at the same time trying to handle a lot of business. It just doesn't seem like the best fix. So I think the more you have those conversations with your loved ones and even yourself, sit down and write out what do you want? I mean, it could be even a certain song that you want played that you feel, you know, kind of captures the essence of you. And so I would say the message that I'm getting from the work is let's talk about our lives, let's talk about our future in terms of the plans that we want to make. But also if you're still breathing, if you're still on this side, you still have a chance to embrace life, you still have a chance to fix some of those um mistakes, if you will. Um, and I think it's just good to put yourself in a state of peace as you think about your future instead of anxiety about what I didn't do or what I didn't handle. Yeah, exactly. And also uh for the children and the parents, don't leave your kids with a whole bunch of work to do. Like that is not the gift that we want. You know, we don't want, you know, I I just talked to uh the a gentleman who's uh my new tax accountant as of last week, and he said that his, you know, his mom passed, and um he said, we we're having to clean out this house, and it's overwhelming. And so let's just have the conversation. Yeah. And if anything I'm trying to achieve with this series is to get people to talk about it, to make plans, stop putting it off. And it's tough. It's tough.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Yeah, it's hard. It's a lot. And and as you're you know, as you're starting to dive into this, maybe you could speak to this not only for yourself, but maybe what you've heard too. Um, what frightens you? Does anything as you're as you're thinking about the end of life for yourself, or have have you heard from others? Like what are people feeling as far as their their own fright? What's what frightens them about going through that end of life? What frightens you about going through the end of life?

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Yeah, I mean, I would say for me, um just feeling like there's some closure with you know, with their whatever relationships. But I would also say like I think that there's just a lot of thought about if there were like an unexpected, abrupt situation. Unfortunately, like I said, when we think about end of life, many times we're thinking about someone 70, 80, 90. But I will say the the the kind of one of the challenging parts of social media has been that you're more aware of deaths. You know, like before people had to call you and it, you know, it had to be like this big like announcement, but now I'm seeing people 40s, 30s, 50s, I mean, having heart attacks and strokes and accidents, and I mean, it it's sort of hard to not give a give yourself a little anxiety. And I'm saying as myself as a parent, like the main fear I have, at least at this stage of life, is what would happen to my children if for some reason I weren't here. I mean, I'm married, um, you know, but things happen. I've heard of situations where parents were both in a car and something happened. We've had a lot of situations like that recently in Colorado. Um, even a state legislator recently passed in a car accident. So I think for me, just the fear of not being prepared and also wanting to make sure that those who are here are covered. And um, and it's it's kind of giving me a little anxiety about like what would happen if I were not here. But, you know, we try to stay healthy, we try to be present. But again, back to that discussion about conversation. This is why, you know, we should all sit down and write out uh wishes, you know, do a will, do a trust, you know, all of those things. Uh do your estate planning to at least do what you can to cover your, you know, your loved ones if you were to pass.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, very important.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

It is important. So when you get really anxious, how do you manage that anxiety? How do you keep yourself resourced when you're spinning into those thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Or even just overwhelmed by work.

unknown 27:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

I mean, I just um, well, I I I do have those moments, but you know, I am a spiritual person, so I do pray and ask for peace and I ask for protection. And, you know, and then there's just kind of a part of you that knows, you know, what is meant to be will be. And so that, you know, I've I've seen many people navigate this. I don't envy them, but I've seen, you know, one of my big stories that I did long before I worked at CPR was when I worked for Atlanta magazine and I did a store, I did a series on suicide. And that is a very, very complex topic. I had the benefit of um interviewing um former uh surgeon general, uh Dr. Satcher, who worked under Bill Clinton as former president, and um, and he was very um adamant that when suicide does take place, that we not try to guess or speculate on everything that led to that moment. I mean, because we're always looking for like a note or like a specific incident, like, oh, this happened, and that's why, you know, and he was very adamant, and I that's always stood with me for years, his conversation about don't um don't try to assign a meaning, like, oh, so-and-so broke up with a girlfriend. So that must, you know, you don't really know. And he said, you know, mental health is such a complex thing. I also changed my language after that story instead of saying committed suicide, which is just it's so ingrained in our heads, like I've heard that my entire life. Um, you know, just changing the language to died by suicide and and um because committed, as you know, at least those who are advocates in that in that space say it's it's in the it's it's usually in the vein of a sin or a crime. And we want to take that stigma off of that. So I have changed my language and say so-and-so died by suicide uh or took their own life, um, which, you know, it it may seem like tomato, tomato, or semantics, but for those in that community, and I mean it's really hard because it is so ingrained in our head to say committed, like it's almost like it is almost like the phrase in itself. So I've I've tried to, you know, be a beacon of change in the language that I write in my work, but also again, by doing this series Aging Matters on Colorado Public Radio, um, we've gotten such feedback. Like, thank you for talking about this. Thanks for talking about my experience. And the reality is, again, people are doing this. We are now, people are living longer. So that end of life is being stretched out, but it's also creating a different life for those who are living longer because you're living longer with chronic health issues, and um, it becomes a kind of a quality of life topic as well. So I will just say um I've had a lot of challenges um as an African-American woman navigating the healthcare system with my mom, and it's it's almost like I've always covered um statistics and data and studies, and they talk about the medical industry and how it has a lot of systemic flaws. And I will say all of those statistics have come to full view in my life and understanding how many people navigate the health system very differently. And um, I've had to, you know, raise my voice quite a bit to speak up on you know, ill treatment, uh, medical mistakes, uh just not servicing the patient. And so again, these are things that I'm learning through my mom, but I've told my husband, I was like, look, if I'm ever incapacitated, I'm letting you know you cannot just trust that the medical professionals are just doing everything that they can. Sometimes it depends on what they perceive of you and what you're willing to accept. So um I hate to say that because there's been some phenomenal people too who have stepped up and spoken up, but I do think that you do need to talk to your loved ones before you're sick, before you have any um illnesses, and talk to them about advocacy because it is critical at your end of life. And it can make a difference between you having an end of life or not at a certain time.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

Yeah. So important. Yeah, I'm so glad you're doing that work. Thank you. Well, we're close to the end. Do you have anything you wish we'd had asked you and that we didn't get around to that you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Um, I know you asked um to share like some quotes and and things. Um, I would say the mantra that I live by is the famous quote, you know, be the change you seek in the world.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

And I do think that as you have these conversations about end of life, it can feel like it's just something beyond your control. And to some large degree, it is. Like we don't get to necessarily decide that. Obviously, we have the benefit of medical technology that has helped us, but at the end of the day, we don't get to decide the day or hour that we are not going to be here. So I would just encourage people to have the conversation, talk to your loved ones about their wishes, your wishes, talk to them about advocacy and what you want, but also don't think it's too late. I don't care what age you are, um, you can try uh to repair relationships, to make relationships better. And that's something that I'm hoping to do myself is to all is to look back at these last years with family members and loved ones. And just remember, be the change that you you seek in this world. And also my alma mater, which is Clark Atlanta University in Atlanta, is find a way or make one. You know, that's that's our that's our um motto, and I live by that all the time. And uh, you know, so I would just encourage everyone to empower yourself and don't run from it, lean into it, and I think you will benefit at the end of life.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Yeah, thank you. Love it very much.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

Yeah, you're inspirational. So love it.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Thank you so much. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

I get my daily Oprah affirmations. I used to be a big Oprah Winfrey show fan.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

So perfect. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Really appreciate you. We'll put um notes in the podcast notes that will uh for people to get in touch with you or know more about what you're doing, the work you're doing. And thanks so much for the work you're doing. It's so important.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

Well, thank you so much for Chandra. You all are leading the conversation. So you you go right into my point, is that you're you're putting it in front of people, and I do think it's gonna make a difference for a lot of people that's going to, I mean, because you know, it's not a do-over situation, right?

SPEAKER_03 34:48

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

I have heard some people say that they did have some do-overs. That's interesting. I'm sure you all have talked about that. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yes. At the end of the day, let's, you know, it's not a dress rehearsal. This is the real thing. So let's all be ready. So thank you so much for um hosting me on your questions instead of asking them for a change. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

I love it, you thanks so much, and thanks everybody for joining us. Take care.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Thank you. Adios.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to Charles Easton, the composer of the original music you are listening to now.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

And of course, thanks to you, our audience, and all of our amazing guests. Please come back next week for another great episode of Share This with Your Friends, Family, and Community Fox. We hope you will subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky. We're always here to hear from you.