SPEAKER_03 0:01

Hey, welcome folks to this week's weekly dispatch. Sam and I are sadly having to do this by ourselves. Our dear friend Ana Luisa is off on a journey. And um, but in a way, it might be very appropriate for the subject we're thinking about. Um, you know, we we're thinking about around Mother's Day, you know, what what kind of a loss is there for men, or not really even for men, just for this the culture um of the feminine, of the of the um of the connection to the planet of the the goddess um energy and senses. And um, you know, we we kind of hesitated because you know we're two guys, right? You know guy adjacent. Guy adjacent, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um but you know, uh, you know, the the news over the last few weeks has been pretty horrific around, you know, some of the things kind of rising to the surface, some of the horrors that that women face. And and what comes out of that really is it is our job as male bodies to um to know to work on this, to find ways to to do this better and to think about it and to to raise raise ourselves and open ourselves to fullness and to wholeness as human beings. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Yeah, I mean there's there's that external loss of of respect for the feminine, the cultural um, you know, we live in in as I hopefully call it the death throes of patriarchy. Um but also losing the connection internally to to a balanced relationship um with our our masculine and feminine sides. And so yeah, in honor of of Mother's Day, um sitting here and and mourning that loss and and showing appreciation for those those parts. Um initially when when we played around with this idea, um the the spark that came was remembering uh one of John Trudell's really amazing lectures. And he talks about uh the loss of the loss of a relationship to the earth as mother and how that was an integral part to allowing uh the early forms of extractive culture to really take hold. Because you have to destroy people's relationship with their mother, the earth, yeah, for them to be okay with you pillaging and raping that you know, that that body that we all come from. Exactly. And you have to do that on a cultural level too. And so that's you know that's that initial grinding away um and denigration of of the feminine and the yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

Yeah, yeah, it's really true. And and when we step back, I mean, really, if we aspire, as you and I at least do, and probably many people in the audience do, to to reclaim that connection um because we see what the damage it's done, and because we want to end the the disharmony and the destruction and find ways to rebuild uh a sustainable planet and a sustainable world. Um the uh the uh you know, the the lessons from the goddesses, you know, or the even uh all of the old myths. I mean we were just before we started talking about Sophie Strand's book called The Flowering Wand, Rewilding the Masculine, highly recommended book because it really does go back through all of the mythologies, um, all the way back, and many of the male male kind of mythologies, and redefine them in a much more wild and open and full-hearted way. Um, because you know, they've been they've been abused, all of those myths. Um especially, you know, for uh for the Christian world that we live in, the patriarchal Christian world, the whole the whole Bible that we use is very much um heteronormative and patriarchal. And um and that that just it's such a big loss because there is so much more uh going on. And when you start to find the other ways of translating things or the other parts of the uh Hebrew Bible or the other parts of the even the Christian Bible, um, or other texts from other religions, there's so much more connection to the planet, so much more connection to that part of who we really are.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

So you brought up this morning uh when we first asked what we were going to talk about, this uh this article by former guest Rabbi Rami, yeah, and and his take on the Eve story and and framing you know her engagement with the forbidden fruit being a wisd a pursuit of wisdom. Yeah. Yeah. Not the not the aesthetic, not the uh what was it, immortality piece?

SPEAKER_03 5:21

Yeah, well, she she it I love it because it says she resisted twice. She resisted her hunger. She said, Well, you know, I can I'm hungry, but I was told not to eat that, so I won't. And it's beautiful, but you know, I was told to leave it alone, so I will. But then, but it would give me wisdom. Well, I think I need that, you know. And um, and he makes the point that she made an she made a choice because of you know feminine wisdom. She made a choice to gain wisdom for the for the betterment of her community. Um, Adam, on the other hand, just took it because he handed it to her. She handed it to him, you know. So I love that kind of way of thinking about it. You know, it's just like he was compulsively taking and and she was really considering thoughtfully what what needed to happen. Um, and then, you know, uh the other part I loved about that was the part where he said that she uh she chose he was he was tossed out when you read the Bible correctly or the the translation, he was tossed out of the garden. She wasn't, but she chose to go with him to try to help him with that compulsion to take things, you know, because she had wisdom now, right? She and tempering influence.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, which inverts uh inverts the the patriarchal narrative of of what masculine and feminine energies mean or are or qualities are. And as a as a queer person uh who is like in the gender fluid realm, um, non-binary uh sort of stuff, I often run into that when when categorizing things as masculine and feminine and and having a a a background in anthropology, I'm like, that's it's so different. Like what is considered a masculine and a feminine quality can vary pretty significantly depending on the culture you're in. Yeah, absolutely. And and one of the one of the most interesting pieces from from my lineage that I've worked to integrate or has been really impactful, and I was actually just having a conversation with my mom about it. The that in uh Lithuanian cosmology, the sun is a feminine archetypal force, and the moon is masculine. And and I think that inversion is really interesting because what you're saying about like what what we're saying about you know, Eve going and being the like consistent wisdom grounding presence and and the presence of the sun as a consistent all-radiating shines on everybody kind of thing, kind of force that's just bright and warm and and loving and consistent, while the moon is more mercurial, shifting, reflective, responsive. Uh there's an interesting maybe idealization or or just a different archetype. And I think it in that conversation, um it broke my mom's brain in a really fun way. She was like, I'm gonna have to really sit with and incorporate that because it just turns everything on its on its head in a in a really fascinating way. Yeah, we love to do that.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

That's important. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think the other thing, and really we talked about this a bit, but the the loss of that connection has resulted in our, well, like you said earlier, our ability to to destroy things and to extract things. But it's also just a deep, deep internal loss. Because when you aren't feeling that connection to the land you're on and and really paying attention to it, really being a part of it, you've lost such a huge amount of what life can be. Um, if you because I'm just reading a really beautiful little book by Llewellyn von Lee and another good author for all this kind of stuff. Um, and it it talks about the the spiral of life that it connects us to everything. And when we disconnect, even in in our daily life, if we just forget because we're too busy doing stuff, um, we've lost something right away. We've lost something. Whereas if we can really be present every moment, even now, present right now with you and me in this computer, but being present in the moment, we gain so much, and we can also be, you know, it can also be hearing the birds singing outside. And um, you know, so really remembering that that remembrance is what we can what we've lost and what we can gain if we choose to uh honor that part of ourselves and that goddess. So to talk, you you had some thoughts about goddess energy. Did you um that that when we were talking earlier? I'd love to hear more about that, what you're thinking.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

I've had lots of thoughts about goddess energy. Uh was there anyone in in particular that you were thinking about?

SPEAKER_03 10:29

No, I well, let's see. I love uh first I love the the Durga and the you know the Kali. Um because really it's doing what we're talking about or shaking things up.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Right. So important. I so that that brings uh one interesting piece up for me, or a couple um maybe more relevant and in and interesting to uh the conversation we're having about the relationship towards, you know, of masculine and feminine and sort of that. And inhabiting sort of the gender fluid but more masculine side, um present presentation-wise at least, um, is I often find myself engaging with men um and and in like men's groups and doing men's work and having conversations with men about masculinity, femininity, and things like that. And um and I become really grateful for my unique role in in bringing that. I mean, I was also like raised by you know a single mother and my and uh you know uh uh homesteading hardcore like woodsy lesbians, like a big part of my upbringing. And so that that'll that'll break a lot of those those frameworks. Yeah. Um but I remember uh a men's group that I was in a number of years ago, and the topic of um of violence or aggression and anger came up and and talking about that is this like archetypal male force and this need to protect and and you know I was 30, so I was not as uh not as refined in my in my approaches and my speaking people say that I'm more diplomatic now. But the what came up was was the unraveling of what we think of as archetypally masculine and feminine and how we think about those things. And in in that circle, I said, okay, this this impetus to like puff up and get big and and stand in between your family and danger and and the like urge to maybe violently defend that, like in nature, who is the archetype of that? Right? Is it a masculine figure or is it the mama bear? Do we say it's mama bear?

SPEAKER_03 13:16

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

So did you inherit that is that maybe from your divine feminine within that drives you to do that? And it's something that I do think in a lot of cultures is carried in a masculine like uh areas, yeah. Yeah, you know, bear clans and bear cults and stuff are often a very masculine place, but it's still so feminine. And I I love that as a way to break that deception apart.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

That's so good, that's so important. Yeah, it is really fascinating when you start thinking about that. I mean, there's you know, body bodily differences perhaps that are you know are uh biological, you know. Um but other than that, there's no reason whatsoever to um to have this black and white, this is what this is, and this is what this is. And that's and that's a you know, that's part of our culture too. It's like in order to be safe, we make categories, and we you know you're in this category and you're in this category, you're my friend, you're my enemy, um you're male, you're female. That that's more comfortable for a lot of people. Um and um, but it's not real, as you pointed out.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

And it's harmful. And in a lot of uh in a lot of sort of decolonial gender theory spheres that I've encountered, um the hard binary, the hard gender binary is a relatively modern Western thing that that was imposed upon a lot of different cultures through the colonization process process.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Very true.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

And that and that uh a strong binary was seen as more civilized, and that the the equity and fluidity in a lot of traditional cultures was seen as savage and barbarous, yeah, and uncivilized and animalistic. And and yay, animalistic. We can learn a lot by being more animalistic, yeah. Yeah, I mean look looking at the the the alpha wolf myth and how that has just absolutely poisoned especially masculine spaces. Yeah, yeah, you know, the idea of having to be an alpha and and and feminine too. It's that that one's really endemic to our culture, I think. It is. Um and you know the the the reality of you know, in a healthy ecosystem, in a healthy family and and social system, you know, wolves are uh egalitarian family units.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

Yeah, as as usual, the mirror of nature is the is their best teacher. Uh if if we can remember to look at, I mean, really everything, the cilia, the trees, they you know, they they to remind us over and over again that it's all one thing and everything has to work together in order for it to work. And and uh that we uh by separating ourselves, we have we we disrupt that flow and um and that we need to find our way back to that. Um yeah, so wow, that I love that. I love that. And so yeah, I was there's something else that came into my mind, but I don't remember what it is, so maybe we can just chat on. Um yeah. So I was thinking about the the way that this um the way this can be applied, I guess, for for folks, because this is you know part of our goal here is to to um share our thoughts around how can we do these things better, right? Because you know, we do at least I know you and I and and many of our broth brothers and and uh sisters in this gang, um in our in our community, direct community, yeah, yeah. Um really do aspire to find a way back, right? And to be allies for each other and and to support each other. And um, and part of that, and and I guess the the part that what I what I think you said earlier that really struck me was that for men, oftentimes that means we're gonna be the big tough guy and we're gonna defend with violence if we need to. Um whereas if you can find the balance, um, it's like if there's defense needing to happen, it's a it's a collaborative, cooperative kind of thing. And in real life, that would look more like just being in there for people, you know, being present um if someone's being ch somebody's being uh threatened, um and and being willing to be brave enough. That's the courage part, which is not masculine, is actually probably more feminine in many cases. Um but the courage, like I like Eve, you know, to to say, well, actually I I think this is gonna be important. I'm gonna take this wisdom, you know. Um but to to to step in, to have the courage to step in and be allies um by showing up and and by take being taking having those hard conversations or taking that risk. Um that that's something that everybody can do and everybody and I think that's part of what we lose when we think we just have to be the tough guy and go in and punching, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The the other the other piece of that that I think about too is is how often in in the more uh long-lasting especially of traditional cultures, indigenous cultures, is that the you know even if your warrior societies are predominantly male or masculine, you don't go to war until the old women say it's time. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I think that's something that I really uh take into account at this moment in time with all of the the fire that rises in me around the injustices in the world. Yeah. And that that warrior energy that wants to come up and and go burn some shit down or whatever. But um that that I really I look to the elder women in my world to to be my moral guide. Yeah. Um, and to be the like the grounding steadiness of uh engage where we're at and what the need is.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

Yeah, that that just brings goosebumps. Thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

Yeah, that's so fucking so right on so important. Yeah. And I think that that also is informed by what I was talking about with that lunar masculinity. That uh and and and during our last Sufi conference, uh, we talked a lot about solar and lunar energies, yeah. And that that the the lunar is not a passive, it's not a passive energy, it's just it's rus it's a very responsive thing. And so and so to to step into that masculinity in a responsive way, not reactive, yeah, but yeah, open-hearted, how open-hearted, yeah, what is the need? A service in a in a service way. We talked about you know Mars energy in that way also, yeah, as a service-oriented uh standpoint. Um and so look looking for the needs in your community and where you can can show up listening.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

I was remembering um my sensei when I was uh taking when I was doing karate, um and a woman, actually, an amazing, wonderful woman. Um, her first lesson was don't fight. You know, that the very first job you have is to not get into a fight. Um, which is just, you know, and it's and again, you know, counter counterintuitive perhaps if you're taking self-defense. But but I guess if it is really self-defense, then that would be your first job. Um and I love, I think somebody else said your first um kareti.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Move should be and it is. Yeah, and the and the Celtic uh Celtic wisdom, you know, don't you don't give a boy a sword until he knows how to dance. Wow, perfect. One of those two. Yeah, very beautiful. Very beautiful. I love that. Yeah. Yeah, temp tempering those tempering those urges, those impulses.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

Yeah. Every boy I've ever known loves to pick up a stick and it. So there is something about that. You know, I it is, you know, it probably is just that need to whack on things. I don't know. But yeah, but that's, you know, that's children, you know. And so here we are, you know, we're growing up in this culture. So the culture's responsibility, and we as the male presenting culture, part of the culture, responsibility is for with those young people, those children, to show that, you know, this is this is our planet. This is our beloved. Um, we're we're we're connected to everything here. And sure, you can pick up a stick and whack something if you want, but remember that stick has feelings. Right. And whatever you're whacking is not probably enjoying that, you know? Yeah. Uh yeah. And and uh so yeah, that and again, I love the idea. You know, you got to dance before you can pick up a sword. That's such a great idea, such a beautiful idea. So we've got some work to do.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

To do, yeah. And uh on the on the on the topic of a sword, because a sword is, you know, in an archetypal way, such a masculine thing. Very phallic. Um you know, and is and is a tool almost exclusively for ending life. Um and and in in uh a couple years ago, uh, in in hanging out with a very sort of like chivalrous knightly friend of ours, um, my dear dear brother Clint, um I decided uh that that I was gonna I was it was time for me to get a sword. You know, I'd had some growing up, uh some show swords, but I was gonna I was gonna get a sword. It's a good thing to have, you know, if you're gonna be in this in this and I've I've fenced and and all of that in the past. But but at that point in my life, uh and and the nature of of the blade that I got as a as like a sharpened combat ready sort of thing, when I drew it, I understood in that moment what what you're saying about your sensei, don't get in that fight. Yeah the power of a blade, or you know, if you engage with firearms or something in a in a way that's not our sort of like fetishized toy, like we treat them like a hobby toy thing. Yeah, but the destructive potential of a weapon, if you can really feel that when it's in your hand, is such a humbling thing. And and to hold that like sharpened thing only there for the destruction of life, they go, holy shit. I hope I never ever ever ever ever have to meet somebody with something like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, may it be so violence is a horrible thing, you know, and I think that's part of part of the struggle that we're in in this world right now. It is, you know, there's so the the those death throws, the the patriarchal, the wanton violence that is being enacted, and how many of us are like, this is terrible, and we don't want to play that game. Yeah, and it's hard and it hurts, and there's so much suffering around it. And and the the questions of like when do you engage with that side of things um is part of that, yeah, and part of that thing, and how and listen to your listen to your aunties? They have a lot of wisdom to say about those things.

SPEAKER_03 26:13

And uh, you know, most of my aunties are saying sing.

unknown 26:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

Sing, get together, create community, sing together, dance together, pray together. Um, but uh that yeah, that that urge, and and maybe that's uh I don't know, we're we're trying not to assign masculine and feminine to things, but that urge to get in and start whacking things, you know, is certainly there when I wake up and read the next set of insanities, you know. Um and uh but thankfully I do have that wisdom around me and that um and my beloveds and my community that says, yeah, we'll pray and we'll sing and we'll dance together and we'll spread the light everywhere we are, and um and that ripple will hopefully um bring about something new.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Right, and not just spread the light, but also digest the shadow. Yeah, we're gonna digest that shadow as we go, but that's also part of you know choosing the path of peace, which is a a huge thing to do every day at this time in the world. Yeah. And I I don't want to moralize about that because I don't, you know, who knows? Who knows exactly? Not up to me. Not up to me the path that those things take. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:26

Yeah. So well that thank you. I really appreciated this conversation. It really um really struck me in many ways. I had several times where just like, oh yeah, wow. Yeah, likewise. I hope all of you, um, our lovely audience enjoyed it as well. And uh, we appreciate any feedback, um, get in touch and uh you know, subscribe and re you know, and all the stuff tell all your friends and all that kind of good stuff. We appreciate you. Keep hanging out with us. Yeah, we'll see you next time. Adios.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Adios and time grief for last conversations at the end of life.