SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back, everybody, to End of Life Conversations and our weekly dispatch. I am editor and oh, I had a good one the other day, but I forgot what it was. Um Jack of Many Tree. Good thing I'm the editor. Uh and okay being vulnerable. Uh Sam Lee's emkey. And uh Waquil has a pretty good uh piece for us to talk about today, so I'll hand it off.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Thank you. Yeah, I'm Reverend Waquil, and uh we spent the last few days um out in Pennsylvania with my daughter and son-in-law, soon to be, um, at their farm. And they have a new farm out there. It's a beautiful place, 80 acres right by the Delaware River. Um, and uh 80 acres are in in um conservancy, but they have an area around their house where they can do farming and they're doing sustainable organic practice farming right now. Um, and it just has this beautiful, beautiful energy. And of course, right now, being spring, the flowers are all blooming and all the plants are coming up, and we're doing all this. So we're we're working with them and we're basically doing what you do as a farmer. You choose to um allow these things to grow and to point out to to decide that these other things are weeds, and we have made the decision to take the life of these weeds. And there's a certain level of like loss and grief and like confusion, even like, who are we to make that decision, right? And of course, with the the forest being in conservancy, the part of that work is we spend time out in the forest and go, there's a plant that is not native, so we're gonna tear that out of the ground. And I felt like I needed to, and I did, say prayers, you know, to say, gosh, uh, you know, I'm not sure this is the right thing to do. I don't know how, and maybe I'm not as smart as I think. I mean, as humans, we've been doing this for what, thousands and thousands of years. It's called agriculture, yeah. And so um there was just a sense there that we are ending a life, ending a life of uh a species, or choosing to end the life of a species. And we be should be aware of that and we should think about it, and we should be humble about it. So that's what came up.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

So yeah, that whole the hubris that introduces a new species into a into a landscape. Yeah. And then the hubris of saying, oops, I can fix this by by by killing this thing that I've introduced off is such an interesting, an interesting piece. I I follow a lot of you know botanist, animist sort of folks. And on one side, uh I'll I'll shout out uh this account Crime Pays, but Botany Doesn't. Um big, you know, East Coast uh vibe and talks about plants in a really accessible way. But he was walking through an east uh sort of east coast landscape and talking about how you know 500 years or 250 years, whatever, of uh interrupted indigenous land management has created like this, you know, from his botanical eye, just this tragic, tragic landscape of you know, it's not fire managed, which is also like a choice, like a controlled dying. Yeah. You burn these places to kill them off, kill certain things off, you know, and leave other pieces or allow other pieces to flourish. Um and so that's not happening, and all of the invasives. Uh and then on the other hand, and while I was watching those, uh I was remembering a conversation um between uh two of my favorite animist thinkers, uh Rune Harjo, who does uh Nordic animism podcast and work, and then Tyson Yunka Porta, who is an Australian Aboriginal um animist and traditional sort of theorist, philosopher, spiritualist. Um wonderful author. Yeah. Wonderful, wonderful author. Cannot recommend his book Sand Talk enough. Um, but they met and had this really amazing conversation about the introduction of the fox and the cane toad to the Australian ecosystem. Oh, yeah, and how they are they are non-native and highly destructive predators, but that in uh in the Australian Aboriginal uh sort of cosmology and and cultural response, they've developed cane toad and fox songs because they're there now. Okay, and they have to deal with that. And so by creating the songs to go along with and be sung alongside the songs of the animals and plants and and beings that have been there and naturalized or are indigenous to that place, then it allows them to navigate those relationships in a different way. And so I think about that a lot too, with oh God, being here in the Pacific Northwest and the proliferation of um of blackberries, Himalayan blackberries everywhere. Yeah. And and I've worked on farms where they will take over everything and you are constantly hacking them back.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

And at the same time, goats love them. And at the same time, there is a holiness and a sacredness to any life. Yeah, but I see the way that they spread and protect.

unknown 6:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Like when like seeing along the side of the road and when we are domesticating and obliterating ecosystem, like I know that that they crowd out a lot of native species and can cause a lot of damage there. But the world is changing, our climate is changing, things are dying, yeah, you know, whether there's an invasive there or not. Yeah. And that's part of that hubris piece. Does it, you know, if there's an ecological niche and these things fill that ecological niche, if if uh sometimes it's rats, and rats are a challenging, challenging creature. Yeah. But a blackberry bush provides cover for an animal that might otherwise have no cover. And so there's a different kind of ecosystem.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Amazingly beautiful, sweet berries that we can eat too, you know. And the birds love them and eat them and spread them everywhere. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and and then, you know, there's another thing we have out here called Scotch broom. Scotch broom, yes. Which was also brought over from Europe and is everywhere. Um and uh yeah, we talked when we've talked about this in the past, I remember uh with with my friend Daniel, who has a farm, talking because we were out there clearing out um buttercup, which is another invasive species that can just take over things, you know. And he and I were out there clearing the buttercup out and had this conversation. And there is, like you said, the word naturalized. Um there's like there's a a kind of an there's a there's a kind of a beauty to what you said about the Australians just um acceptance of, you know, these weren't here, they're here now. Um they've become natural, they're natural now as far as they're concerned, you know, um their energy, and including, you know, rats or the fuzzy-tailed rats we call squirrels, you know, or the rabbits, um just all these things that have just proliferated and proliferated. And two parts of that. One is that yeah, they're as far as their souls are concerned, they're alive there because they're alive there and they've found a place to be alive. And the other thing is that they are very, very prolific and very, very strong. And all of our work is really for nothing when it comes right down to it. Because those blackberries, those rabbits, those squirrels, those all these critters and and uh species that we choose to control anyway, um are really uh completely out of control and will continue to be long after we're here, you know. So so I think about that too, you know. It's okay, well, okay, there's maybe um a point to controlling for for the sake of our agriculture or for the sake of growing food that we need and or protecting other critters or other species. Right. Um and yet, you know, I guess part of what I'm thinking is important is what the Australian indigenous people have recognized, and that is they're they're still sacred. And we still owe them that respect. We still owe them that prayer to say, I'm yep, I'm sorry, I'm I'm about to rip you out of the ground because I don't think you belong here. I'm pretty dumb when it comes right down to it. But as far as I can tell, at least for the sake of these other things that I want to have stay here, I'm gonna burn rip you out of the ground or burn, you know, burn the field or whatever. So yeah, I think is I think that's part of what this really points to is recognizing that we're uh recognizing that that we are just humble humans with very limited perspectives. And uh and when we choose to make the take take the end of something's life, we should be aware of that and uh and honor that and be sacred about it and do ritual around it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Yeah, and as as you're you're speaking to those those pieces, uh I'm also thinking about like the bullfrogs, the invasive bullfrogs uh in the San Juan Islands, and they have the the really little uh native frogs, yeah, the little peepers that sing their songs all through through summer and people love them so much. And the bullfrogs are just eating them and mass and eating their tadpoles, and they're just like the numbers are being decimated. And so and so part of you know, there's there's part of this effort to like save those species, but in that I also feel a sense of like the inability to process the grief of the ramifications of these actions.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

That those are there now, like you're saying, it's it's just a fact that that these plants are there now and we can manage them, but they're not going away. Yeah. And and that that is that uh there's an irreparable shift. And can we can we mourn what was? Yeah. Can we mourn all of the lives of these like beautiful native things that have that are being you know impacted in their stability and at risk of going away larger, you know, in this time of of mass extinctions, looming mass extinctions of all these all of these species that we uh that we are grieving and mourning. And in the the book that I've been reading, Earth Grief, uh, that I've talked about here before, uh, there's no saving a lot of this.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

We are in this process and it is moving along. I'm also um currently listening to the audiobook of uh Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson, which is right in line with the ecological loss and how do we meet what is going on and and and try to try to do what we can. And my brain just went in three different directions at once to find the path again. Uh or I can hand it off to you if you have any any thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Yeah, while you're while you're thinking about or pulling those back, um the a couple things have come up, and I was thinking about this is that the other thing that we see out on the East Coast, and actually when Asher, um my son-in-law to be um did his podcast, and we'll put a link to that episode, because it was all about species loss, and he had done part part of his master's program, he had done some work on I think the the uh chestnut and how it was wiped out at one point by um by some blight that came through. I think it was a blight. Um there was also there's there's you know, there's elm, they had Dutch Elm disease, which happened on the East Coast, wiped out all the elms. Right now they're they're having ash borer, which is wiping out all the ash trees. Um and this stuff comes up a lot, and it comes up over and over again. And it again, it's a result of our hubris, of our of our um brought bringing stuff in that doesn't belong here, and then um, or are other species that don't belong here, and or not having are the climate change happening and uh these insects, things moving and changing, or the you know that they're not being able to defend themselves as well because of the way we've taken down the uh uh understory, all these things. Um, and and yeah, you're right, these books are great about this, um talking about the way that our our our uh presence and our culture on the earth has created all these problems that we're now mourning, the loss of these species. I mean, Dutch Elm, they used to just be up and down every street, you know, in the East Coast, and it was like or and in forests, they had forests of of elm trees and they had forests of chestnut trees and they uh and and the ash, and there's one example after another after another. And out here we have some uh pine beetles that are destroying pine trees. You know, it's just there's there's so many examples of this.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Um I think that I I think the emerald ash borers have made it to this coast too.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Oh, very, very likely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Yeah, there's a big effort here in Portland to try and work on that because all of the ash trees, which there are many in the city, are at risk and being like dying in mass.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah, yeah. So we see all these examples, and that's yet another kind of sense of not only just mourning because you know, because we hate to lose a species, but and and but this m there's also this sense of responsibility and guilt, actually shame, you know, that that I think is worth noting and paying attention to. And part of the awareness of this is noticing that, yeah, I feel ashamed of our species, of our of our hoobers and what's caused the loss. Um and so, you know, what do you do next? What do you do about that?

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Right, right. Um brings back, I I regathered the the trajectory of that, which is how it how all of these also play into larger systems of guilt and grief and shame that we carry, uh, especially those of us who are um set settlers, descendants of of settlers and colonizers. Yeah. And and the sense that that we are an invasive species in in certain lands, landscapes. Yeah. You know, the the whole narrative of like humanity is a cancer and all of that stuff. And and how is that reflected when we look around us and see an invasive species doing invasive species things and and the parallels and and I you know 90% sure that a lot of people are not consciously making those connections, yeah. But on a subconscious and like emotional level, yeah, I think to see that that loss and that destruction and and to carry some awareness that that we did that also on a on a human level. And there are uh I mean in in that in that uh Tyson and Kaporta Run Harjo uh conversation, they talked about you know put the fox as an allegory for the colonizer. And and how how do we uh uh uh begin to to shift from the function to mentality maybe not a mentality because that maybe implies like a conscious thing, but on a consciousness level, shift from invasive to naturalized in a landscape, paying attention, you know, to the harmonics of a place and um listening, you know, you listen and and instead of instead of finding every niche that you can insert yourself into and take advantage of, be more responsive to the environment around you. Yeah. You know, I think that's a key part of a of a naturalized species is that is that it finds its itself in the balance. Yeah. Or the or the you know the greater ecosystem, they all find their balance together. Yeah. And so that's not a perfect allegory. Um but but there is a a common thread there that I'm feeling.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

It does sort of point the way and in a way toward, you know what these my daughter and son-in-law are doing is you know, sustainable agriculture, right? Their whole and and permaculture and all so they're doing and and they and many others like them are uh trying to find ways to create that balance. To, you know, we're growing food and we're uh we're doing it in a way that isn't harming the planet, and we're trying to find a balance between the things that are um causing trouble in the forest and the things that aren't, and um, and get back to as much as possible to that indigenous care of the land. Um the there's there's an argument for, and I'm sure there's probably people listening who are making this argument right now, that um, you know, all this um colonialism and and uh mentality that we're talking about is just not fair because that's the way we survive, that's the way we've thrived, that's the way we've created this incredible United States, you know. Um and um I don't I you know it's not my perspective on it necessarily, but I want to recognize that there are probably people who feel that way and feel like it's not fair for of us to be ashamed or to put shame on them for living their lives, for creating, you know, enough food for everybody worldwide by having these massive uh perma, or what's it solo culture, not solo culture? Monoculture, monoculture, yeah, monoculture farms and um and you know, we met some farmers while we were out there that are doing just that. They're they're grazing uh soybeans, I believe, or corn. And it's you know, it's a monoculture and they have to continue to fertilize it and they have to continue to um, and and it's not good for the land, it's not good for the things around him. But these are really cool, sweet guy, this guy, you know, he's a really friendly guy. He's like, let me know how I can help you. He says, if you need to do something that's bigger than you can handle, I've got big machines, you know. I'll be glad to come over with my big machines or anything else I can do to help him. Welcome, welcome to the area, you know, which is really sweet. I mean, it's a guy who's been there for generations, and and I worked on ranches in eastern Washington that had been around for generations and they do what they do, they raise cattle, you know. Um, and raising cattle could be much more sustainable, done in different ways. It's not.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Um, and so again, I I just want to recognize that um I don't think we should or would or you know, should be putting, should be shaming people for doing the work that they've done all their lives or for generations. And um and I want to make sure we kind of mention that or honor that, that um it's it's true that you know that's why we have food on in the supermarkets, you know, as much food and as uh huge variety of food as we have and and why we're being fed, although there's a lot that's a whole nother top subject, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But I just want to I guess I just wanted to bring that up and just make sure that we uh um yeah, that we aren't trying to diss anybody basically for what. where their choices are.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Um and that's a that's a that's tough. I don't you know I don't want to like sit and argue with this hypothetical person in our audience that that you've mentioned or this like you know subset of of uh people and and I I think yeah it comes back to like do we can't necessarily blame the Scotch broom. We can't necessarily blame you know the the invasive species that don't understand how out of balance their relationship with the surrounding ecosystem is. Right. Yeah and not not in a like you know each person is a plant and so when you pull a plant you're killing a person that's not what I'm saying on a met on a on a on a maybe ideological or um certainly metaphorical level like these practices or certain methodologies for relating to the environment are like an invasive species that are wrecking the environment and and I think luckily culture is much more mutable than than like biolog biological like presence in some ways. You know like it's much easier to change culture I would argue or say than it is to like get rid of all of the blackberry brambles that are growing along the highways.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Yeah yeah and so yeah that's our path forward is right start to find new ways to understand the work that needs to be done the work that we've done the past and and find whatever human you know everybody has to make their own choices around that. Right. And find their own balance and what they can and can't do or what they feel drawn to.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Right. And and do our best with the understandings that we have because we don't know. That's part of it, right? That hubris of I know exactly the thing and not the thing but we can't you know observe what what is going on and say oh like you know this morning glory is choking out all the other plants. This mono monoculture thing practice, you know, uh factory farming or you know whatever are pushing the surrounding environment and whatever that translates to out of balance. And so like pulling those methodologies, weeding the methodologies to the best of our ability. Yeah. Yeah. And finding new solutions. And then dealing with the consequences. Yeah. That's all we can do. Yeah. You know there really is no no right or wrong we're just trying stuff. Doing our best. Doing our best.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Yeah. Yeah so really you know it's funny how this always all of our conversations seem to come back to you know we don't know anything you know and and we're doing our best and we're holding everything in balance the best we can. And I think just being aware of these things and and being and having these conversations with each other is what's important. And being aware of the griefs that we hold and the and maybe the shame and talking about them and uh and ritualizing around them so that we can just recognize that in ourselves and in others and find ways to be in conversation with others without getting into the blaming each other or blaming the the the plants or blaming the rats or you know get get back away from the shame blame and look at how can we move forward in a better way. What are the solutions that will help? And I think you know sustainable farming is a great one. It's arguable that um organic farming isn't gonna isn't at this point is not um enough to feed the planet um but that's not unfixable. It's it's something it could be done. It's just again it's this whole cultural change that needs to happen. So um we can maybe step at a time and education at a time and a conversation at a time. We can find our way.

SPEAKER_00 26:43

And there are methods that we haven't figured out yet. Yeah and or or you know old methods um in this conversation too I'm thinking about uh like food forests yeah and and how you know on the on the east coast and and here on the west coast where a lot of the like really fertile lands and and people having a more like um place based or or sedentary not in not in conventional western agriculture sense. Yeah but like food forests are a human created thing yeah where certain species were selected and introduced and cultivated and encouraged over other species in certain environments. Yeah just with a different maybe scope and attention to the surrounding environment but like they find those still 250 years after they're not being managed anymore still doing their things.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Yeah even like the Buddha rainforest they find these cultivated spaces. Yeah right they've been cultivated for thousands of years.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Thousands of years so there are ways there are choices it's just you know we've got to find ways to uh connect with each other and share and do our best and say our prayers for the for the pieces that that we need to pull yeah and and make those choices about what what dies.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Yeah with awareness yeah with awareness yeah yeah well wonderful time talking to you again as always yeah and um we hope you will all um spread the news about this podcast and subscribe and tell all your friends and um yeah and we look forward to our next conversation and if you have ideas if you'd like to talk about this with us there is a chat online for any um on the Substack you can go on our Substack page and we have a chat set up there for any subscribers you can subscribe for free or send money that's always fun and um so we'll uh put notes in there and as there are notes in our podcast notes always to to our Substack um presence so that's a good place to communicate with us and we would love to hear from you and hear what you'd love love to to field topics for us to talk about in this space because we're always challenged by what do we talk about today but we always find something always find something all right well thanks again take care until next time adios conversations at the end of life