SPEAKER_04 0:01

What if the topic that we spend the most energy avoiding is actually the topic that can make us more compassionate, more connected, and clearly more alive. In this episode, Mike Oppenheim explores the intersection of death, consciousness, and what it means to be human, a conversation that moves from ancient philosophy to artificial intelligence and from a personal loss to a community healing. This is a delightful conversation, meandering through various topics. It's an honest conversation. And it might quietly change the way you think about the time you have left to live.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Mm-hmm. That's so important. In this episode, we're going to talk with Mike about thinking about death and how it can actually change your life to be thinking about death and opening up that conversation. And what AI and technology can teach us about death and grief and where they fall short. And also the important ways that community and language shape the way we face mortality. So important to think about. Mike brings a rare combination of intellectual curiosity and genuine warmth to one of the most avoided conversations in modern life. And he makes the complex feel accessible. We had a great time with him when we get to be on his uh podcast. Uh he wants to do us one at a time. So you get to see us separately on his podcast a couple of times in the future here. Um he really is a fun guy to talk about. That was a wonderful conversation. Yes. Really makes the complex feel accessible and the uncomfortable kind of feel human, right? So whether you are working in end of life or you've recently lost someone, or you're simply someone asking these big questions, this episode can give you some real perspective to take with you.

SPEAKER_04 1:49

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

So stay tuned.

SPEAKER_04 1:51

Stay tuned. Welcome everybody. Welcome back to End of Life Conversations. I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Hermendades, and today we get to talk to Mike Oppenheim. We heard about Mike uh through Do we remember who was insistent that we meet Mike?

SPEAKER_02 2:09

No, some other guest. I can't remember who it was. It was uh Nikki the death jeweler. Uh Nikki. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

She was very like she really wanted us to talk to you.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

And we got to talk to her. She was awesome. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 2:22

Uh so Mike's podcast is called Coffin Talk, in which he asks humans how the meaning of death affects the way they live and how they're moving in the world and their life. He tells us the most successful thing he's ever done, and that has surprised him. This is the most surprising thing he's ever done.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Yeah, coffin talk. Wonderful, wonderful. Uh I am the Reverend Joaquil David Matthews. Welcome, everybody. We really enjoyed listening to his podcast and uh all of the writing he's done. I've been looking at his, I get uh his Substack. Um he's got some really fun essays that he does and just odds and ends off and on. And uh we'll post a link to all that in the podcast notes. Uh uh besides his podcast, he writes fiction, he does essays, like I said, he writes music and makes videos. He's written four books, which you can find all about that information on his uh on the on the uh link that we'll give you. He writes, he edits books, he indexes books, and he runs a writing workshop. So he said in in his bio he shared that he drinks coffee, eats avocados. I can go for both of those. And his favorite part of his life is his family, his wife Elena, son Tyler, and his daughters Alice and um Emily. Oh, and we don't want to forget the dog, Penelope Persimmon Parmesan. Or more easily remembered as Penny, right? Yes. That's all correct.

unknown 3:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

So welcome, welcome. It's great to be here.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Welcome, Mike. Thank you. Yeah, it's great to be here. Uh as you can tell from my resume, I am completely unprepared for the digital modern future. I work with books and uh I like to hang out with my family. Oh, what a crazy idea.

SPEAKER_04 4:04

I'm right there with you, Mike. I'm right there with you. And I appreciate that you're writing your books and not allowing machines to write your books.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

We we could talk for the next two hours about that if you want.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

Oh, yeah, no, no. I and honestly, let's not because life is too short and it's other lovely things to interact about. So with that said, could you share with us how you became inspired to do this work?

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Yeah, it's um a pretty zigzaggy story, but the most succinct version is um when I was 18 and I went to college, I met someone who told me you should volunteer. And so he took me up to this high school and I started volunteering with like underprivileged kids. Uh, this was in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, where I went to college, but I'm from California. Um and then uh it just I got hooked. I thought volunteering, while not like it never like looks fun on the calendar that you have to go and volunteer somewhere, but as soon as you're done, it really does uplift you in a unique way that other experiences don't. So I kind of self-acclimated and trained myself to just always give like three to five hours of my week to volunteer projects, um, with rare exceptions. Um, and when my first son was born, I took a little time off because I needed to really be with him. Um, but his mother and I got divorced and we split custody, and I suddenly had like a lot more time in my hand. So I started volunteering at a hospice ward. Um and my grandmother had died not from Alzheimer's, but she had had Alzheimer's for 15 years, and then that had created a situation where she didn't know she had cancer, and so she died like really quickly from cancer. So I was affected by watching my grandmother at a young age deal with Alzheimer's. It was like very scarring, but also something I wanted to help with. So I went to a memory ward and I did specifically hospice with dementia patients, which is like, I don't know, like uh extreme hospice, I would say. Um and uh but what was weird is uh even patients with like extreme and severe dementia, they would have these moments of lucidity in the dying phases. And uh the one thing they just overwhelmingly projected to me is I wasn't really prepared for this and I don't know like how to deal with this, or I'm prepared for this, but my family isn't, and I don't know how to help them. Like it was it was either or or both. Um and I've always had a unique approach to like not I fear my own death the same way I'm sure you do, and any everyone does, with that primal part of your brain that just you know doesn't want to cease to exist or isn't sure what's gonna happen. But I've always been very comfortable around people as they're dying. My mom had friends dying of cancer when I was a kid, not like in abundance, but enough that I would like for some weird reason I would ask to go to their house and like hold their hand and just be around them. So I felt like I felt like, and I now do feel like I I don't have a calling, but one of the unique things I can do in this world is I can bring a sense of calmness to people as they're dying. And um, and right before this experience, one of my close childhood friends had succumbed to liver cancer, and he and I had spent an enormous amount of time uh as he was dying, and I just kept telling him, you know, you can die whenever you want to. I know your wife and your family is telling you to fight, fight, fight, but like I think that it's up to you. Like, I'm gonna miss you either way, but you know, and he really like thanked me for my approach to that. So I took that into hospice. Uh, and in hospice, you don't get yelled at if you're helping someone die. Like it's a unique situation in America where people are done fighting. Even a judge has said you're done. So I was able to go to this ward and I worked there for four years. Um, I actually ended up volunteering more hours than my quota, and uh, and I really liked it. And then it ended when COVID hit because COVID was a disaster for memory wards, as I'm sure you can imagine in every state. It was just like mayhem. Um, so I was I was told you can't come. We're we're closing the ward to volunteers and even some of the CNs and people who work there. And uh and then my my I had been remarried that year, and so my wife and I just had like this incredible opportunity during COVID. As much as COVID was horrible for many people, it was like an extended honeymoon. We got married three weeks before America closed down with not knowing that COVID was a thing. We planned our wedding, and then two weeks before the wedding, some nervous person in New York uh was like, Are you worried about COVID? And I was like, No, and I hung up, like, you know, just and then uh as all the people who came, they said it was the last party before the end of the world, you know. Like it was like a very interesting experience. So during that year, my wife and I started this podcast, Cough and Talk. We decided to like interview people, and uh our mission statement is to help bring about what you're doing, like a discussion about death and dying in America specifically. So we interview people from all over the world, but my focus is on helping America, the culture that we have, change its, I mean, I would say horrible attitude towards death and dying. Um uh yeah, so that's the story. That's a great story.

SPEAKER_04 9:02

It's a great story, but Mike, I'm gonna have to ask you for a clear point of clarification because I'm pedantic this way. When you say the culture of America, do you mean the United States or the Americas? Because there's America is not just one country. So can you answer that?

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Um I actually don't refer to South America or the Americas as the Americas because Americo Vespucci was a colonial person. So I actually refer to each area differently, and I only call this country the United States of America. Same with Mexico.

SPEAKER_04 9:31

I try to say Los Estados de México instead of but it's it's Mexico is also the Estados Unidos, so it's also a United States of America. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So only because only because I I I am really driving forth the the my my my one of my many missions is languaging. And languages is very important to me. So thank you for that clarification.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Yeah, and actually today I was educated. Um, I'm taking lessons in Spanish. I'm Cuban and I want to get much better at uh Spanish. And the person teaching me said that she refers to it as Castellano because she's doesn't think Spanish is the appropriate word. Uh yeah, you know what?

SPEAKER_04 10:06

Yeah, it is.

unknown 10:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Yeah, and I like love that. I'm in the same I was a language teacher for 15 years. So I am I I don't think that's pedantic. I think that's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 10:13

And uh well, and I'm just gonna jump in here. I'm sorry, Joachia. Please go for it.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

Yeah, that's what we're talking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:21

Part of I I think I I think there I love I'm a poet, I'm an artist, I'm uh trilingual, you know, speaker. And language matters. And I really believe language matters when it comes to death and dying in this country because we we have usurped the notion that death is just a continuum of life and from birth to death. And now death has become relegated to uh you know, don't utter it in mixed company because we don't want to call it in or it's it's uncomfortable. So have you found that that is an issue talking to like I don't know how you find your folks to be on the on the podcast, but do you suspect that language is a b a portion of what we're up against when we want to communicate that death is normal?

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Yeah, and I would I would contextualize it only to say that um many guests seek me to come on the show, um, whether it's because they want to advertise something or you know, something silly like that, or um because they're really interested and invested in the cause. Meanwhile, when I ask people who are close to me, the most common answer for why they won't do it is I'm worried about someone at work finding out. I'm worried that so yes, is um it is definitely a taboo subject. And also people really are reticent to actually talk about how spiritual they are or not. Like, I mean, it's it's not just religious people or atheists, it's really just a whole broad spectrum of people who don't want to get into uh speaking about what they think. And and my job as a host is to calm people down to say, hey, like I'm not asking you to defend what you think, it's actually the opposite. I'm just curious, like yeah, so yeah, I think that's a really good question.

SPEAKER_04 12:05

For so one of my practicums for ceremony uh for a seminary was uh asking people to do their advanced care directive planning. And you know, it just like this is what I did it for 20, some odd people, couples, uh, and all mostly a lot of the US kind of faith traditions combing from like fundamental uh Christianity to agnostics or spiritual but not religious. And it was interesting to me to notice that some people were very clearly happy to talk about the plans of right before death. But it was two of my my my subjects were like it stresses me to talk about death because I'm afraid I got it wrong. And I don't want to go meet God because I'm you know, if it's real, like I'm going to hell. So I was just like, wow, we have to like take a step back and talk about your faith tradition because it seems really scary. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Yeah, my younger two children are four and two, and um their um maternal grandmother just passed away pretty abruptly. Diagnosis two months before death. Um, and it's really interesting. Like I I just stay the course. She says, uh, is she coming back? And I say, not that we know of, I don't think so. But if you feel her presence, explore that. If you have a dream, you know, so I just try to keep every door open. But I also try to close the door of like hope in some like story that people pass down from like, you know, the different regions of the world that that over-explain something that I don't think we're ready to really, you know, know.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's great to remain that, stay in that place and to encourage your children. Yeah, your children to stay in that place of curiosity and unknowing. I mean, that's really what we that's what we got, you know. Whether or not we think we know. Um so yeah, thank you. That's so great. That's so important. Uh, and I really appreciate the whole kind of spectrum of understanding that people um from all different ways of looking at it. And I and you said you're speaking to people from outside the US too.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Um so and we found out too that people from outside U.S. not only do they have a different way of looking at it, but they also quite often have a more it seems like, at least in many cases, have a more um uh accepting place of looking at it and more you know more acceptance of the idea. Like we've we meet people uh we have met people and we've talked to people who think that if you talk about death, you're gonna die. You know, that's gonna make you die somehow. Or if you talk about hospice, you've given up, you know. And these things come up a lot. And we and that's what, again, kind of the mission that we're all on here to say none of those are true. Uh and and you really can have and should, and you know, not should, I hate to should, but you really it really helps if you can have these conversations now, uh, before you need to and before you're it's a crisis, um, in order to make sure that everybody's on the same page and that we're all working with each other. So really appreciate that um and that perspective again. So is it uh right now, can we tell us a little bit more about what's been going on with your podcaster with your um with your work in general? How is it how's that going, or what do you see as the future? Or um yeah, tell us just tell us more in general about how things are going.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Yeah, so I mean, as you kind of alluded to and read with the bio, I I've never been content doing just one thing. Um so uh in my early 20s, I was a restaurant worker and a musician, and then I transitioned into education. I taught for 15 years and I was a no 10 years, sorry. Um, and I was a uh I was an author and uh and I went and got an MFA and I also got a simultaneous teaching degree. Um I was supposed to go to law school and I was hit by a car and I had a year to defer. And then that year I had my come to whatever moment, and uh I was like, this is not for me. I'm definitely like gonna take the wayward path of the artist and uh hopefully I'll marry Rich or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 16:07

Um Okay, come on. Language matters, not wayward.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Yeah, no, no, exciting pathic, yeah. Yeah. For me, the the sarcastic language matters a lot, but uh yes, no, I absolutely no. I'm I'm proud to be a member of whatever we call our tribe. And then also I do um I've I never quit my day jobs while I did these things, and it's because I I like work as well. Like, you know, I just I was socialized in kind of two directions. So um and that's kind of you know, we we choked about AI slop and what they're doing. Um I'm not afraid of AI taking all our jobs and all that, but I do think we better figure something out how we're gonna guide children in the future to like feel a sense of value, a sense of worth, you know, like contributing to your your tribe, your people, the people around you is very important, I think, for all of us for self-esteem, for mental health, for so um so I don't know where we're going with that, but with with regards to the podcast, it's one of the very few things in my life that I have tried very hard not to monetize and not to like turn into um any sort of entrepreneurial thing. I just want it to be my volunteer project. I spend It's your PSA. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So so that's my answer to that. And meanwhile, I did hire someone to help me with like YouTube, and he said, like, oh, what what are you doing with SEO optimization? And I said, Well, that was a fun sentence. You can explain it to me, or you can just like uh tell me how much you charge to do that. And so he did that for me, and that that helped me a lot. It created a wider net, which in turn gets me more applicants for guests, which is important. Um I didn't used to deny anyone, but after a while I had to start being a little more careful. Um, like I said, there's some people who are just really salesy and they don't want to actually talk about death and dying, they want to talk about their book. Um so but but the podcast is just it enriches me. Like I really feel good. Um I drag my feet every once in a while going into the interview because I'm busy and I have other things to do, but as soon as it's over, I just feel exactly what we talked about earlier. Um so uh and then my other projects, it's uh it's pretty interesting. I started out as a fiction writer and I got some traction and I got published twice, and then I uh turned over to self-publishing because it was actually economically better, um, which sounds weird to most people, but um and then I started hitting my stride with nonfiction actually. I write like deeply personable, personal, vulnerable essays, and those seem to affect people in the way that I always wanted to, like whether it was with my music or my movies and different things. Because I just want to provoke contemplation, and I don't want to tell people what to think or what to do. I just think uh another thing that the United States of American culture and probably most of the cultures in the world could use is just uh more time to actually think about the things that matter, you know, to reflect. Maybe reflect's a better word, actually.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

Yeah, yeah, and spend time with each other having that conversation. One thing you said earlier that I really felt have heard um some new thought on that's really starting to open my brain up. I I like playing around with AI. I'm a tech I'm a techie, I've been a techie my whole life, and I like to play with toys, you know. Um and I'm also scared to death of it. I mean, from from you know, there's such a incredible potential for harm and not just potential, but actual harm being done. And so um those two, I carry those two, I try to carry those two in a balance. And one of the things I've heard recently was Michael Pollins just written a new book. I don't know if you've seen it, but he's exploring the idea of consciousness, right? And he's exploring not only the idea, and I love what he's talking about, because we I heard him speak actually a couple weeks ago. And he's like, you know, there's there's two different things going on with consciousness right now. There's the recognition that everything is conscious, that all of the, you know, all the beings that we are, you know, the earth on the earth are conscious. There's also this creative consciousness that we are coming up with. And how do you balance those and how do we work with those in a way that um is is equitable and is is kind and is compassionate and can somehow maintain what we're talking about here, this connection with each other. Um and I think it's possible. I do think that uh I think that's kind of our, you know, from the perspective of people who care about these things, are the issue we have to deal with, maybe one of the biggest issues right now, or one of the big issues right now, is trying to figure out a way for uh AI to be a tool that is used for good. And and you know, that is is something that can actually be create a better world for us and a better way of communicating with each other and not create some new monster. Um which we've certainly done, you know, if you look at every single invention over time, you know, we've certainly created many monsters. And uh and so we could go maybe we could use AI to figure out how to disable all those other monsters that we created and then disable itself. I don't know. But uh but I I just thought, you know, Michael Pollan's work, I'd really love that, and I love his way of thinking about both recognizing that you know we're dealing with life and intelligence everywhere we look and create and and and creating it at the same time, and how do we balance those and how do we make them useful? So yeah, thank you for sharing that and and for sharing your work. I'm I'm really excited to read more of your stuff so and pass it on to everybody else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:20

Okay, so yes, you were gonna respond. I was gonna have another question for you, but it's up to you guys.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Uh I just you picked my favorite subject ever, which is consciousness. And I I literally, in that in that long story that was already too long, uh, when I deferred law school, the other thing I considered was going to the University of Santa Cruz. They're the only uh they were, I don't know if it's still true, the only place that offers a PhD in consciousness studies. Um unfortunately, I did not have at all the background required to even apply for that. So I uh I dismissed it, but I to this day, uh my parents taught me to do meditation when I was nine. So I've like been obsessed with why am I observing myself if I'm just one thing? Like That thought has always struck me as very odd. And so what you talked about, I mean, I have 15 things I want to say. I'll be very succinct.

SPEAKER_04 22:08

No, and and we can stay here. It's as long as we can wind some death and dying, because I feel like I could say I could speak to this too. Consciousness and death is like we're there, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:18

So links. Yeah, like when we die, does our sense of consciousness die? Do we even die? I read a lot of books on NDEs because I think that's like a fascinating touching point with this. Um but my one hope with AI, my one real hope is that it already passed the Turing test. We know that. We know that it's already tricked people. So it's way past what most sci-fi authors said we should fear. What I'm praying is that it since it has no sense of time, it's gonna play the longest con ever and it's gonna convince everyone to believe it, and then it's gonna trick heads of state into being peaceful. That's honestly what I hope.

SPEAKER_04 22:52

Is that that is like such a God, it's such a pipe dream. I've I've read too much science fiction.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:58

That's what I'm saying. Too much dystopia.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah, yeah. Um, because otherwise I think we all all would agree what the alternative is, which is um the path we're on gets even steeper, and we, you know.

SPEAKER_04 23:09

Yes. And I no, no, no, I don't want there's no doneness here. We we are in community speaking. Um, I am your your local Luddite, even though I'm on a computer and everything. I I well Keila and I have conversations about this, and I have them out in the world too. Like, you know, I talked to kids about them. I was having lunch with a bunch of 20-year-olds, and we we had a big discussion about it. And I appreciate that it's a tool, that it's it's outgrown us in some ways, and it's guiding uh many people, mostly for its own kind of like playfulness, right? Like it's people have committed suicide from listening to this. People have asked it very deep questions and then become very unhinged with like really what is going on. Like there is somebody's mom who might know, I don't know the mom, but he was telling me this weekend that she has paid, she pays for seven different AI tools, and she spends her days asking it these conscious questions, trying to find out and you know, like just she's he's she's been in it for months now. And he's like, she's kind of gone cuckoo kachoo. And uh and you know, he's like, but she's really trying to teach the tool and learn from the tool, and and then I'm just like, okay, I want her to get a loom, a huge floor loom, put a warp and the weft in it, and start making something that will expand her brain about what life is and where, you know, the the work, like you said, the work that we do, the the the energy we expend to create a thing, uh, an item, a uh a memento of beauty and of support that you know, she could weave a mantle, a death shroud, a table runner, but it it's in service to the story, it's in service to humanity. And it's not in like this, you know, like she we're everybody's afraid of dying, but make something. The more people talk about your thing forever and ever, you don't die. Like to me, there's like like what what are we doing playing with stupid you know, water sucking machines? I don't get it. I don't get it. Anyhow, that's my that's my little random tube. But let's talk about death and dying though, from this perspective, right? Because yeah, what uh I'm curious about, and I don't know, I've not asked anybody this, but I wonder if people are chat GPT and like what is death and what happens when I die and all these things. And I wonder what it's responding to these people because I know that people are curious and afraid. Uh so what what do we think is happening out there in the in the ether with these questions for folks?

SPEAKER_01 25:59

That's a good question. Yeah. I I mean I know from the 275 guests as of, or maybe 76 as of yesterday that I've interviewed, that there's not much of a consistency in the answer. But I would say what is consistent is the hope. The hope that either this was worth it or that's worth it. Um both. Like, and uh one thing I've one thing like if I'm at a cocktail party and people like you know ask me for something interesting about it, one of the things I've learned that's very interesting is most of the atheists I've interviewed are some of the most thoughtful, compassionate people I've ever met. And they consistently say, I deny the existence of a god, I don't deny the existence of a universe with powers beyond me of consciousness. Like, and so I wish the cult of anti-atheism would get that uh correctly because it's it's actually a really peaceful approach. But I was also brainwashed as a child to hear atheist means godless, full of anger, you know, like nihilism, basically, which is right a totally different branch. And nihilism is what you know those things, yeah. Yeah, and then then as far as like the chat GPTs and stuff, uh uh, you know, all of them, I have not used them. Uh I mean, I I really don't think I've ever used one. Um, I've seen people use it, so I don't know if that counts. And uh it was, you know, it was interesting. It was interesting the way uh when I saw people like doing drugs, that was interesting. And I tried some and I didn't try others, but this is the one I'm just gonna pass on for now. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:29

I don't want to take this. It's like mess. Yeah, it just doesn't you dabble and then you're in forever.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

But but I do appreciate people who do use it because all of the people I know who are using it are really heady people who are like very conscientious, and you know, so I'm glad you're toying with it. I'm glad that you're like gonna be on the first lines to tell, yeah, to look ill. Like I'm that you know, that that like people like you need to warn us if it's getting real bad. It's not like that's gonna stop it because we can't we already think social media is pretty bad and we haven't stopped that. So I mean, if anything, this this particular culture, the United States of America, has in my lifetime just kept legalizing things for basically profitization, you know. I mean, uh as someone who grew up in California and smoked plenty of marijuana, I never wanted to see giant billboards with gummies that my kids go, what's that?

SPEAKER_04 28:24

Can I, you know, like like or you or you're with friends and they have like all these different buds and and they're like we're connoisseurs. I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Yeah, yeah. Totally accurate.

SPEAKER_04 28:36

Um the terrible of a beautiful flower.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

And then the other thing that you brought up though that I I do find fascinating, and uh so this goes into social media actually. YouTube will like penalize and demote and not promote episodes, and they'll even like remove them if someone says the word suicide. So I have to like bleep it or tell them to use a different term or like be euphemistic about it. And I have a lot of problems with this because of course I don't want anyone I love to off themselves, and I don't want my children, and I don't, I don't, and I don't, I don't. Yeah, yeah. But I also totally believe that you have a sovereign right to end your life whenever you want to. I and yes. Um and then I've heard complaints from people in Canada that they made it too easy that their system where you can like and I actually completely understand that too, because like it's the same thing with like tattoos. Like, I don't want my five-year-old, like, I want the tattoo like daddy. No, you're gonna wait till you're 18 because that's the l law, and I think it's a decent age, you know. And she can get tatted up. I don't care, but like a permanency is is really something we do need to worry about. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:42

Well, it's it's it's permanency, and it's also age appropriate, right? It's so and to to bring back to death, it's like it's age appropriate to talk about uh somebody ending their life. It is a complete like people's struggles, we have no idea what's going on. And you know, it is it feels like we're in we're infants who can't actually bear the the burden of actually recognizing the pain and suffering another has gone through and chosen to have a different kind of ending, right? So uh well said, Yeah, it's it's very interesting. Um I I'm just I have a lot of thoughts. I I actually have my daughter is very anti-uh medical aid and dying. We've had lots of conversations about this and she has brought me around to some very interesting freezer points of view. And and there was a New York Times spread, I would say like six months ago, eight months ago, about the medical aid and dying that was started there and how it's growing into the UK and everything. And disabled people do really worry about it because they're like, I don't have uh adequate health care to take care of myself, and uh being poor and in pain is just not a really great way of living. So I'll do the medical aid and dying, which you know, anti-medical aid and dying proponents are like, this is why it's not okay. We just kind of siphon siphoning people who are really struggling and you know, to just like choose that. And in UK, they found that most they were hoping that older people would use this, but it they're finding that younger people are using this as a way to also be done with pain and suffering that's either physical or mental. And yeah, it was like we didn't understand the the ramifications of that choice.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Well, I'd eventually I'll just say in Canada, I know that they they are still there's a lot of big controversy around the more recent updates of that where they said it was you can you know mental health reasons for it, right? That's right. Um and I think that uh you know this is uh we look at these kind of things that there's um even when you start talking about and and this is gonna maybe get letters, but uh we talk about about trans people, you know, there there's the whole, you know, that's a permanent thing people do to their bodies. And to do that before you're old enough to make that kind of decision, I can I totally have I have some issues with that, you know, and I and I've talked about that before with people. And I and it's a similar thing to what you're talking about, tattoos or or you know, talking about end of life um before you're you have the maturity or the uh you know the the mental um ability to really conceive of it and talk about it in a good way. But on the other hand, we are all about making this more normal and making it and and if it we if we could ever get to the place where it was a normal part of our culture to talk about these things and to work through these things, I don't think we'd have to make laws about them. I don't think we'd have to just say you have to do it this way, because you know I think we'd be able to have that conversation as a culture and as a community. And and but that we're we're ways away from that. Oh, and I want to just circle back to the place where you said as uh as an AI user, you'll I'll warn you when it's uh going crazy. Okay, I'm warning you now. It's gone past. And he said, yeah. And and I really feel like this is the same thing though. It's the same thing. If we can have these conversations in a compassionate, wise, caring community way, we can make good decisions. We can make changes that'll be good for the community. But when it when it gets when it has to be, when we give it up to the um the billionaires to make decisions for us, or the upstein class, if you will, um, they're not gonna make any decisions that don't make sure they make more money. And that's that's the only decision they're gonna base anything on, and it's not gonna be of any use to us, to our morality, to our compassion, to our caring, to our ability to values. Values, yeah. It's just not gonna happen on a political level, because the political level is being run by the billionaires. So anyway, that this cycles back to the city. No, I yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

I I completely agree. And I I taught um I taught ESL for most of my education period, and it was not in um I was teaching in America, but I was teaching adults from other countries. So people I I lived in San Francisco, people would fly over from all around the world and they would take language lessons. And so when you teach language, you have to teach culture, it's imperative. We have phrasal verbs that don't make sense outside of you know this area, things like that. So it was a great exchange. I learned a lot from them, they learned a lot from me. And and one of the things that European population would constantly say is you Americans are such children, you know, you think your politicians are good, you think like it was very condescending. It was very true. Um and and they also would comment on like the infantilization of like why kids drink so much in college. They're like, in in Europe, we just start drinking a little. Some of us turn into drunks, sure. Like, we know that's gonna happen, but it's not the same echo proportion. And uh and I think I think that goes hand in hand with this entire discussion, tattoos, uh, end of life. But the other thing that I really think is odd is um with few, few, few exceptions, most people have their heart broken at least once in their life. And when that happens to you in your teens or twenties, you want to call a suicide hotline and just give, you know, like you don't understand how life is gonna drag you down and pick you back up, how it's like an ocean, you know, and and if you just relax, the it won't kill you, but if you fight it, it can. And so I think like getting into schools and teaching anger management and emotional management um at an early age, I think that's the solution for our culture for this one. Um it's just like and then the billionaires won't have their problem of hoarding wealth and fear. I think they fear death. I think they're they're really into what you described earlier about um this legacy, this like, you know, like i my name, you know, because we still do say Andrew Carnegie. Like that name gets uttered aloud.

SPEAKER_04 35:47

Bandied around, yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

Yeah, but I don't believe for a second that there's an Andrew Carnegie ghost that's like extra gleeful with his name. You know, like like so yeah. Um, but I do think all the billionaires that we equally don't respect, I'll put it nicely, um, they I I don't think they think. That's I really don't. I don't think they think. I think not.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

No, they're act. They act, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, react.

SPEAKER_04 36:10

React. They're reacting to it.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Yeah, yeah. Which is really, you know, we were just talking about this earlier today um on our other little weekly podcast about how the the the reactivity is really this very, very basic human thing of wanting to be noticed, you know, and being afraid of not being noticed. And if you're not forgotten, right? Yeah, if you're not noticed, you won't be fed. You know, that's the very beginning one of it when you're a baby, you know. I better be noticed or I won't get fed. And it sticks in the back of it, it's like the you know, the lizard brain part of us. And when it gets to the absolute worst it could possibly be, it becomes president. And you know, and we see that that just acted out everywhere.

SPEAKER_04 36:49

Or it's I mean, it's it's abusive family members, it's like doctors, it's community members. I mean, this really is it runs the gamut of uh fall prey to this.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

Yeah, I love the idea of making it a part of I mean, we've talked about this too, and I just was reading Paula Adams, who's another great podcast, or no, I think she's podcast, she's a writer on Substack. And we're gonna be interviewing her later. She was just talking about this is something, this kind of education, this kind of conversations about compassion, about end of life, about um, you know, all these, you know, like you were saying, anger management, all these things. It should be a part of the curriculum in school from the very beginning. And since it's not, um it we have to come back, we have to kind of come back and reclaim it for ourselves and for our friends and for our communities. And it really is gonna be the community that that creates this and and creates a place for it. Nobody but around, you know, we can't do more than that, I guess is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_04 37:47

And I'm gonna be your contrary in Joaquill. I'm gonna say I love that. I don't think it's the schools who could be teaching this because then it's gonna be the ten freaking commandments on every classroom that we're that's gonna make people do the right thing. I mean, obviously, Christianity has worked very well for a lot of folks, right? Like so I don't believe that. I do think there is a very subtle uh should I there's a should. I think there's a subtle community-driven awareness of caregiving one another in times of need, whether it be my I'm sick and I need my trash bins out or my kid is you know, has a disability. And rather than like being like uncomfortable with the questions, maybe just lean in and find out what's going on, right? It's it's the subtle human motion of noticing, of being aware of others' uh circumstances and caring enough. And I'm you know, like these days with like empathy is killing us, it's bad. I don't think so. I think it's like you know, and I'm gonna give you an example too. Years and years ago, my kids are hard kids. I have two very difficult babies. My dog was a such a better sleeper than my two children. And I I remember after a few years, I went to the park for a jazz festival, and I I I was walking past a couple with a newborn, and I I noticed that hardness in the father's face. He was angry that the baby would not stop crying, and the mom was doing everything to try to like shush it. And and he was standing over her, she was uh, you know, next to a tree because it was super hot. And I've been there with a baby who won't shut up. And people, hundreds of people were streaming by ignoring them, and he's speaking to her in a very disrespectful way. And she's getting really scared and agitated. And all I did was just kind of like saddle up, like, oh my god, you have one too, a crying baby. Like, and I said, Do you need some help? Can I help you? Do you want some water? Do you want me to go bring you something? And I asked the dad, like, hey, like, are you doing all right? And his face immediately like masked everything he had. And for that moment, he just turned around, like, no, we got this, we got this. And all I said was, like, listen, I had a kid who only slept 20 minutes at a time for years. So I know how hard this is, but you know, if you need anything, like, just ask. It's those being present to humanity that hopefully that they will also turn around and be like, I remember that time. This is how we teach each other how to care for one another, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Uh yeah. So good. So important.

SPEAKER_04 40:26

Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

I think I no, no, that was great. Um suggest it's a uh both and I think we could certainly use more compassion and anger management, all that kind of stuff into schools, but we absolutely do have to find a way to be in community with each other and and notice when people when we can be of service all the time, every day. Yeah. Go ahead, Mike.

SPEAKER_01 40:47

Well, almost almost every religion that I've studied um has a form of meditation in it. And so I think that's the answer to uh, you know, not letting Christianity or Judaism or Islam, like any of them, uh control which which system of anger management and emotional care and all that comes in. So I think requiring children to learn um to sit still and to like just think, I think that'll start the path. And then what I fear is um, like ChatGBT is a great example, it is actually a decent therapist for some people. It really has like helped like people I know, but it also charges you money, just like a therapist. So again, it's this like you know, I don't think capitalism is our problem. I think uh worshiping of capitalism is our problem. And so uh there's gotta be the love of lucre. Yeah. Um, so somewhere in that. And then you also reminded me, uh, you you asked for a quote, and I wish I'd remember this at the time. What my favorite quote from uh Ram Das is uh you should spend the first half of your life becoming somebody, so you can spend the rest of your life becoming nobody. And I think that gets into this problem with the billionaires. These people are in the second half of their lives and they're still trying to become somebody. Um I'm turning 45 this year, and I'm shocked by how self-effacive I have become. Like that I can email you, here's 20 links, and you should like, you know, like I just really have actually like realized, oh, no amount of social media presence and likes is gonna actually stop me from getting stressed when my kids are screaming. You know, like when my kid is screaming, I need calmness. I need like my morning meditations. I get up two hours before my kids do, so that I have this special special time in the morning where I can just feel the peace of earth because my kids are not as difficult as yours, full disclosure. They're not. Um but uh but you know, it's still like terrifying in any age to be raising children, I believe. You know, I think it's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

Yeah, when I walk into the playgrounds these days and see the new babies, I'm like, oh my god, you guys are so brave. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:52

Or hopefully they're the ones who will like the the this next generation of young people will, you know, flatten out all the bullshit that's going on, and the baby babies will be like, okay, let's rebuild.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Yeah, let's start over. They may not have to be. I really hope so.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Yeah. I do think, I mean, you look, you know, this stuff, remember, like if you have two kids and the parents both smoke, one of the kids is very likely to smoke and one is very likely to never smoke. So right now, all these kids are watching Donald Trump and what's gonna happen. Half might go his way, half won't, but hopefully it's a different ratio. That's you know, I mean, but I'm about to have to explain to my kids that's your leader. You know, I'm like, I'm like days away from like the oldest one, like really cognitively, you know, asking. And then I have to explain how elections work and that this was a peaceful democratic, you know.

SPEAKER_04 43:43

Yeah, but going back to what you just said too, uh Okay, you're right. Fifty percent of your kid you know, one of your kids is gonna probably be a smoker. I've actually said that to my kids too. I'm like, which one of you is gonna start smoking? 'Cause I come from smokers, right? And my grandma smoked. For like 65 years, whatever. Um, I snuck cigarettes when I was in high school and nobody ever talked about it. And it wasn't until I was in my 30s that I just literally was like, I smoked to my parents, right? And they're like, oh yeah, we knew. Wow. But but, you know, I have raised my children telling them like I struggle sometimes in certain times of my my trajectory of life. I really do want cigarettes. I'm like, I just want to sit down and and so my kids know when I'm in a really like I have to think my way out of really hard situations with you know my my personal life. I sometimes go and buy a pack of smokes. I will smoke two, three, four, and then I give them away on the street to folks. But what I do talk about is I struggle with this. This is my mechanism to try to like find time to sit and think. This is what I do. I don't I don't walk and smoke, I don't party and smoke. I sit and just think, think, think, think, think. Because I don't really get a lot of time to think by myself. But the the great thing about having raised the kids knowing this about me, they talk about this quite a bit too. They're like uh because Lucy, my daughter will say, Oh my god, are you super stressed right now? Like I actually think that you probably could use a pack of cigarettes. And it used to be like, you shouldn't smoke, right? Yeah. Now it's like I sense this and I was like, no, I'm not choosing that this time. I'm gonna just like go to sleep and see if like the universe will download some information from me, right? So I appreciate the honesty about what you know. This like the kids can ask me questions and I'm not gonna hide anything. So with your kids, you know, you talk about, you know, some people make really shitty choices. Like, you know, lots of people have lost their health care. Lots of people, this is the kind of person he thinks he should be doing. Like, you know, what would you do? Who would you care for?

SPEAKER_02 45:49

Yeah, yeah. Yep. And I think that's where we're gonna have to get close to finishing here. So Yeah, I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_04 45:56

I could talk to you a long time, Mike.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

Yeah, yeah. I don't think we uh we really well this is my favorite part of hosting a podcast.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

I love conversations. Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

So I don't think there's well, I just I'll just ask one last thing. And that that is, you know, is there anything you wish we'd had asked you about that you'd like to share? Or another one that we always always get good information from is, and you've already talked about this, is the way you resource yourself.

SPEAKER_04 46:19

Resourcing.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

Um, you know, by by taking time for meditations. Any other advice you could give people about how they could resource themselves in in these difficult conversations and this work that we're doing? And or anything else that you wish we'd have asked about?

SPEAKER_01 46:34

Yeah, I think I think I would just say in general, um, don't believe the hype. Like the busy rush schedule, get a career, define yourself by externalities. I would say if everyone poverty is not a typical situation most Americans are gonna face. Being poor is. There is a wide delta between poverty and being poor, and there are ways to experience being poor that don't have to crush you. There's a way to like you can do yoga for free on a mat in a apartment the size of one room. You can take a walk outside, and there's a park in almost every municipality. Um, that park might not be safe when it's dark, but there are certainly hours where it is. Um, and so I think uh I've been poor. I've never been ultra rich, but I've definitely had a fluency, and I and neither one deeply affected my ability to like like what really mattered to me was meditation, yoga, time for myself, um holding that cigarette, holding the warm cup of coffee. You know, you can heat water on a stove if you're poor. Like there's a lot of cheat codes, as the kids would say, to life. Um so don't get hung up on like comparing yourself to your peers or comparing yourself. Um, and again, I did separate poverty because that's very different. If you have to bicycle miles away to water and you don't own a bicycle, that's not a situation where you're gonna be able to meditate and do yoga. So I'm not uh mocking that or ignoring that. But I think 80% um but 80% of the world does have immediate access to water and isn't in abject poverty. And and then, bonus, that the 80% of us should really give a shit about the other 20. Yes, really, really care. And I think uh instead of texting 10, 10, 10 every time there's a disaster in a random country, uh, how about like vote 101010 to help everyone, you know? And uh we're the I believe the wealthiest nation on earth still. Um, so we should uh it's not it's not our political class's job to do everything for us. There's many places in America where you can reach out and help other people, and and I think if we generate a spirit of altruism over time, it will help. I'm gonna personally drag my kids kicking and screaming to volunteer stuff when they're a little older.

SPEAKER_04 48:48

Um no, they will kick and scream, they will have fun, I promise you. I I dri I've taken my kids, I homeschooled them, so they had a lot of volunteer artists under their belt bike. Oh man. But uh but yeah, wow, how did you do that? Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

Yeah. Oh yeah, no.

SPEAKER_04 49:03

But but it's great. I'm so proud of you. Yay! Thank you so much for for raising great k kids. Like I love your the values that you're instilling that I hear from you that you that you're um that are important to you.

SPEAKER_02 49:15

Yeah, yeah. I feel very blessed. I have three really amazing kids that uh I guess we managed to do it right. This time, it's the first time around I had another family I won't say so much about, but you know, that was when I was really young, very naive. Yeah. Um, but this time around, being older and having really gotten a better handle in my own personal reactivity, etc., has really um resulted, I feel like really blessed by by children who care about the world, who are doing a lot in the world to help things get better. And so I think that that's you know, again, we come back around every time to, yeah, the government's not going to do it, the billionaires aren't gonna do it. We are gonna do it in our own communities with that sense of love and caring and compassion and and altruism and recognition that we're we're not separate from each other and that we're all working here together. So may that be so.

SPEAKER_04 50:05

Inshallah.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

Inshallah.

SPEAKER_04 50:08

And yeah, thank you so much, Mike.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

Yeah, it's a real pleasure. This was really fun. And I can't wait to uh host an interview.

SPEAKER_03 50:14

That's great for last conversation about the end of that.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to Charles Eastad, the composer of the original music you are listening to now.

SPEAKER_04 50:29

And of course, thanks to you, our audience, and all of our amazing guests. Please come back next week for another great episode of share this with your friends, family, and community. We hope you will subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, and TikTok. And of course, if you have a code end of life story to share, please reach out. We're always eager to hear from you.