SPEAKER_03 0:00

I wonder, like, if you like me, maybe others, have thought about what happens after a near-death experience, how that can affect your life, right? How it changes the way people live. We've had folks speak to near-death experiences before on earlier episodes, and it's always fascinating. But you know, in this specific episode, my friend Saladin Frank Pelfry shares with us his near-death experience and the the way how it was a mystical event in his life. And it really transformed his life in profound ways.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Yeah. Together, Ana Luisa, Joaquil, and Saladine explore fear of death, spiritual awakening, grief, consciousness, and rituals that can help people approach mortality and the uh arising awareness of that through these near-death experiences with greater honesty, presence, and connection.

SPEAKER_05 0:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Um, with some specific attention given to what happens during those near-death experiences, spiritual transformation after trauma, personal mystical experiences, uh, some just good stories, I'm sure, you know, in Soladine, processing grief, mortality, finding meaning through those processes, and then life after near-death experiences. So whether you have had your own near-death experiences, or trying to understand or support a loved one or someone in your life who has, or simply questioning what it means to live fully with a present and maybe pressing awareness of your own death and mortality. Um, this episode could offer a grounded and compassionate conversation uh in service of those topics. Yeah, so stay tuned.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

Stay tuned. Welcome everybody. Glad to see you again. I am the Reverend Waquil David Matthews. On this episode, we're really excited to speak with my dear friend and teacher, Saladin Frank Pelfry. He has been on a spiritual journey that began when his life was completely changed, he tells us, by a seminal mystical experience at the age of 23. He was a yoga and pranayama teacher in Smokan in the early 70s. And at that time, they were already discussing what it means to die and talking about that in groups. And so we'll find out more about that. And we're looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Yes, indeed. And I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Armendadis. And Saladin has connected with the Sufis, and that has been his path for nearly six decades. He incorporates all the wisdom from his Buddhist and Vedanta work and is a teacher, minister, and guide in the Sufi tradition. He currently lives in the bitter roots of Montana and is retired from his career as a clinical psychologist, living a life of curiosity. He feels that worshiping in nature has been rich beyond measure.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

Exactly. Great. Thanks for coming. Thanks for joining us today, Saladine. Really appreciate you. My pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

So, yes, welcome. And let's talk about what has been your earlier work and how it's influenced your ways of thinking about death and dying.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Well, the similar experience that I referred to in when you mentioned that at 23 was a death experience, very significant. And maybe I'll just come back to that later. But I I worked as a clinical psychologist. I ended up being a director of mental health centers in mostly in Idaho. And I have worked with people the in the in the process of of uh death, of dying. I've been in workshops in the early 70s, and it it it just feels like it's the forgotten place in our culture. And uh and and following a mystical tradition, uh, I think it's essential that we dance with it. Uh I that's a very to-to-point answer. Yeah, thank you. Very good, very good.

SPEAKER_03 4:17

Well, and then and I'd we would like to hear more about uh that's that experience that you had it. Um but I also wanted to sh ask you, well, why don't you do why don't you tell us more about that? And then I'd like to have you talk more about the ritual that you and I talked about uh um when we were together a week ago or so that you've done um to have people go through dying, what it's like to die. So maybe you could put those two together. Sure. You bet.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

So I was um been out of the army for a while and I and I uh took a job as an electrical technician in LA for a company putting in hidden cameras in in banks and places like that. And I had only been in uh LA for about three months, maybe four. And it was in August 31st, and I was going north on the uh San Diego Freeway, is what they called it about. I was going north in the hallway to a bank. And the the company truck, it was a small bobtail truck. It had problems with the engine, it cut out on the highway, on the freeway, and there was not much traffic. So I just kind of cruised along on the far right. But what I noticed was way behind me was a large sand and gravel truck, and he was traveling around 70 miles an hour, and he was daydreaming and ran right into me, and I was doing about five miles an hour. So it was a it was a very I I explain it because it it was a we have accidents, but this was pretty traumatic accident. When I went back eventually later to look at the truck, I it it just it was frightening. Anyway, during that time, um I had according to the first responders to come, I was not breathing. I had I had absolutely no pulse rate, no pulse, find no pulse, and my pupils were fixed and dilated. And if if you are familiar with those hallmarks, they pretty much say you're not around. And so um, and it wasn't just for 30 seconds, or it was like for several minutes. And uh in that time um when I did come when when I had a choice. The choice was what was I'd finished. And and the I, I I I'm trying not to get too much into uh a lot of esoteric uh information right now, but the I was the I am, the large I, not the small eye of Saladin. The the boober eye. Right. And so I'm I'm um I'm I'm posed, I to consciousness, to consciousness, to pure consciousness opposed with, are you finished? No. And so I did not it leaving that, if you will, not being in that state anymore, was not what I w I did not want to leave it. I mean, I just just to share right now, it's a profound state of being, of conscious being. It's the most incredible state of emerging of pure love and pure peace. And uh and and uh and uh and there's annoyingness that goes with it. So after several minutes, I come to in the accident, I crawl out of the accident. By that time the police are there, they're all around, uh going on. And uh and I uh I walk up to them and and and they they were pretty astounded. They were more than astounded. They were because I later I was at uh emergency center at UCLA, and the man who came with to talk to me and bring me back to my wallet, my shoes, my wristwatch, all that had come off in the accident. It was pretty profound. And he's and he just said, I I don't know what to say because I was the first responder, I'm trained, you were not here, so to speak. And I and I and I knew it. I I just agreed with him. I just said you're fine. Not in his I understand. Yeah, but from then on I knew that somewhere my life had changed and dramatically. And part of it was this area that both of you are sharing with people right now across the room. Yeah. And so, but mine was to do it more individually, although along the way, uh a number of years ago, what you and I were speaking to earlier, uh a week or so ago when we when I saw you, was that I would have in in the summertime uh a uh a person that is part of the the sangha, the group of uh folks that that that are part of my my my my sangha. And um I she had a large property that had a place to dig that was really well. And so my practice for people was I would take them there, I'd have them dig their grave. They actually was shovels, and they had to dig it where it was deep enough where they couldn't see over the top. So it had to be probably two feet at least. And then we would um we would go inside, we would eat, and then by uh late afternoon we'd go back, and people would sometimes put a pad on the ground or whatever, but they lay in the grave. They lay in their grave, and I would do a about a two-hour guided meditation on dying, on de and your body decomposing all of it from beginning to end. And and part of the practice then was was to fall into that meditation, and then and then uh there's a there's a practice in in the mystical tradition that that we follow, which is called Sufism, called Zikr, and I have people do that all night until they fall asleep, and and they mostly fell asleep.

unknown 10:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

And then when the sun would come up, uh I would I would uh yell out a prayer and and uh to them and wake them. And then I would have them stay in their grave and I would do another guided meditation for about an hour. And this is to bring them back into their body and to become aware of all the sensate experiences that you have in your body, you know, touch, smell, sight, so on. And um then people would come out of their grave, fill it in, then we'd go inside uh our friend's house, break fast, and and then we'd we would talk about it. We would after we ate, we would talk about it, we'd share experiences, we would look at how we want to take that further into our lives to be for them to be able to embrace death, to understand it. And um we did this for a number of years in Idaho, which was just where I was at at the time. And um, and that was essentially to practice. There's other practices that we do in our tradition. I'm sure Wa Kilda, you're familiar with them. Um Amal is one of them called. And and and in this in the Tufi tradition, like most any mystical tradition, we have a way of talking about death. We say mukta kabla anta mukta, die before you die. And it is and it is it is a way of giving you a sense of what it's like to be not the little I, not the little self, but be the I am.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

And let that go, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We we uh just were talking a little bit ago about uh I think it's a samurai practice of every day waking up and imagining what it would be like to die. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah. And also that book that I mentioned, it's living in a light of death on the art of truly being alive. And it the whole practice that I learned in 2002 was exactly that, just like meditating and watching your body dissolve and go back to the earth, and then just really feeling with really being with the awareness of not being.

SPEAKER_03 13:09

Yeah, yeah. And that really is kind of, as you said, that's kind of the work we're engaged in, is trying to uh normalize this conversation so that people aren't afraid of it. And and that's so it's really wonderful practice that um that you're talking about. So appreciate that a lot. And thanks for being willing to share that with us. Um I'd I I wish we had two hours so you could take us through the meditation, but it probably wouldn't be a good idea right here.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Actually, I would say it is not something I'd want to share uh publicly because I think that it brings a lot of different kinds of emotions or fears or anxieties for people. And unless you have the right container that you're there can witness it, I think it creates more uh trauma than support.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

Yeah, you definitely want to do it in a facilitated way. So appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

I I will want to comment on that also because it's a very intimate sync death one of my favorite poems has to do with the intimacy of death by Robbia. And the intimacy of doing that practice. The intimacy of doing that practice is profound, and and and to know that you have to know the individuals that you're leading in that. I I never would have somebody come and be involved with that practice that I didn't know. You know, death has too many tangents that it can hook onto with a person's perception of their being in their life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Yeah, yeah. When I was training to be a hospice volunteer, you know, we had like a three-day um volunteer orientation. But on the last day, I think that we had to write our letter to our loved ones as though we had just died. And then we had to do a meditation. It was a beautiful, not long meditation for us to imagine how our death would be and who we do to our own. So we all, you know, did this meditation, then we wrote it down. And then this wonderful facilitator, you know, made sure, like, as everybody, you know, she had us come back and be present, move around, get back in our bodies. But I really appreciated that even as a non-spiritual foundation place, there was a lot of making certain that people weren't left behind in that space where they're still dying or where dead. And, you know, I wonder if there's like some bits of trauma out in the world when people want to do these things willy-nilly and not recognize, like Saladine said, who are these people in front of you? Where are they on their journey? How equipped are they to, you know, be either bludgeoned or welcomed into this essence of who, you know, I vow am.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

Yeah, yeah. Well, we also talked earlier today about grief ritual, and sometimes those can be similarly done in a less responsible way where you don't have somebody here there to facilitate. You don't have somebody there to be present, and you don't have a process to let people work through their grief and not get stuck. And um, and I've seen examples of that where people came out of a grief ritual that wasn't done very well in a totally um disturbed and upset state where you know they would they probably should have spent a lot more time talking to somebody or spending more time. I mean, it just it's so important to do this with in with presence and uh and wisdom and facilitation and and not just to do it because it's a good idea. Right.

unknown 16:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Well, and I'm gonna just kind of uh also say uh the act of creating a grave is an incredible life-affirming practice. And the the healer I've worked with and trained with for years, we had 13 different um practices or rituals for different kinds of soul loss that might one might encounter. And in community, when a woman is um sexually abused, she gathers 13 other women and she digs her grave, and the women bury her and do a certain prayer, and then they unearth her and have her be born again as a form of reconnecting with your soul and leaving what is not yours in the ground. And so it is really powerful medicine to be in our mother in a whole and uh be.

SPEAKER_03 17:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we all we as you as we mentioned in the introduction, the uh the connection to nature is what does so much. Pretty much every time we ask somebody what do they do to take care of themselves, they say, I get out in the woods, you know, and I know for sure that um that Saladin that's the case for you.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

So I live in the woods. I you've been to my home, Kill in Montana. I live in the Buru Mountains. It's wild, it's beautiful. I'm I'm out in it almost every single day of my life here. And I think you brought up a real thing about fear of of all types, and I think it's essential that that beg that's the place where your journey begins. I d uh about death, and we begin to look at for those I know people don't uh make a lot of humor about Sigmund Freud, but one of the foundational parts of his theory had to do with Thanos. Thanos, yeah. And I and I look at in our world right now today, uh, in uh the can I say anything politically or can is that promo for it?

SPEAKER_01 19:07

It's on you.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

So look, I I don't know about podcasts. Okay, I'm doing this first one in my life. It's fascinating. I'm just but when we're talking about fear and death, I'm I look at our government, I look at our president, who has probably the most profound fear of death I've ever seen in the public person because of the need for recognition constant. And it's reflective of an incredible fear of death, ultimately. And so that's a place that I think all of us have questions to ask ourselves and say, where can I dance with this fear and and find somebody to walk with me through it and find a resolution that makes my heart not clinch every time I I think of my demise. So you know, I when you talk my wife was a hospice worker for a number of years, and then a hospice chaplain also. And and and I did your training that you just spoke to a minute ago, she has some of that same training. It seems to be maybe as it's as maybe uh across the board with was hospice, I don't know. But I know she's besides knowing me, and she's a psychologist also, uh, she found it really valuable. And I and I and I kind of heard the same thing reflected in your voice.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Yeah, and I want to kind of double back to this fear of death and how it's it gets um, it blossoms in each one of us. You know, it's it's the fear of an end. And what is the end? Well, some for some of us it'll be the end of our corporal existence. And some of us, and some of us it's the end of a divine relationship that could potentially be severed at some form of death. I mean, the Christians talk about, you know, you are you are you sever your relationship, you are dead to God when you sin. So there is some of that fear in the world. And so I think that acknowledging, you know, fearing, aging, the end of youthful vigor, the end of dreaminess. I mean, there's so many aspects of death, like that lovely word that just means to change, to move into a different realm. And I think that it's really, it behooves all of us to think about what is the aspect of a death that we fear. And Saladin, you brought up like, you know, the fear of not being recognized. It is a very real um death fear, right?

SPEAKER_03 21:53

Like it is. I mean, I I've I think, you know, in the work, the psychological work I've done over the years, I I recognize. at some point that that goes back to the very first fear I ever had, which is that mom wouldn't show up, you know. And the only way to make sure mom would show up is to make sure I got noticed. And so that goes, you know, all the way through to to the you know everything we do in life, you know, making sure we're noticed. So it's that base fear that we um we won't be taken care of, that we won't live, that we'll actually die because we didn't get fed, you know.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

And so it's not the same for everybody, right? Like everybody has a different one.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Yeah. I think my initial feeling that's good family systems um psychology you're talking to, Walky on that's yeah pretty true for most people.

SPEAKER_03 22:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Oh that's okay. I was gonna keep going uh what are your challenges when you talk to people about death, Saladin?

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Tuning into where they are I mean really you have to let go of yourself. I I in anything when you when you really want to be with somebody you you the the I am the little I am the let it go. And so the challenge is being there present and not judging and letting go of the judging and the and the that critical nature that we tend to have I mean I traveled a lot in my life I've been over many places in the world and the Western culture tends to have have that in spades. I'm really aware of it here in our culture. And so it's letting go of that is it's it's letting go of your own your own frame of reference okay I saw a t-shirt here a while back when I was when I saw you walk you in fact that same day I think um when I was over on the coast of Washington and it said um everybody has a story that you don't know and and it I I think I'm I don't think I'm paraphrasing it. I think I I got that pretty close. But it's so true it's so accurate and so when you speak to somebody about their great fears and as you were saying earlier about their great grief because grief because I we lost our son 16 years ago our youngest I mean I understand I so I have a very wonderful I do call it wonderful relationship to grief. It's just part of my companion but coming into that you know you have to find a place that where you can trust somebody and so and you can trust them when you know they hear you when you know that they're with you. And so um I think that's probably the biggest challenge from your from your question is always trying to stay in the same breath as them stay in the same frame of reference that they are in and essentially work from your heart. Essentially just work from your heart and and not so much your mind. Having a doctorate degree does not make does not make it okay it's much more than or even being older right age does not make it either yeah yeah oh no no no Donnie's two years younger than me and he certainly doesn't have it sorry I'll let that one go that one out of here we'll let Sam decide whether we should keep that part or not.

SPEAKER_03 25:35

Okay. Um well anyway uh yeah yeah so I appreciate that a lot I think that's really kind of I mean Ana Luisa and I met in seminary and the practice that we were being trained in was spiritual direction companionship. And really the number one thing is the sense of listening. Just uh somebody just the other day was saying that's why God gave us two ears and one one mouth you know you know the you should shut up and listen you know and and real really being with people that's the number one thing is just in a state of compassion caring open heartedness and and not trying to put your own you know not trying to figure out what you're gonna say next that you know just let it be let it be and that's we get to practice that here in our podcast too just trying to let things flow in a way that you know that that that can really reach really touch each other and touch our audience etc so um is there anything that you fear about the end of life yourself after having been through all this so okay I'll uh I I'm trying to make a very brief story right okay five years ago uh was it five yeah five years ago I had a stroke okay and I was I was having it I was with a friend uh talking to them and and they drove me home they we didn't know it was a stroke right then but things were really bad I get home and Samia my my wife says oh my god I gotta get used to the ER I'm in the doorway and all of a sudden I realized I can't speak very well but I'm also realizing that cognitive talk cognitively I'm functioning really well I know exactly what's happening I I've had a I had I've had a pretty good medical background I knew all of a sudden what was going on that I had a stroke and I thought is this okay and so I thought well I could have updated my will that was my only only concern really not yeah and then I had and then I thought does everybody I love know I love them that was the only question I mean it's the only thing that came to my mind that was the only place I wanted to make sure that that I had accomplished is that you know I've known Waquil I got I have no idea how many years but decades.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

You know you know where my heart is with you Waquil even right now in front of everybody in in the nature right I and I and so when I knew that my heart that most people knew where they were in my life I have no problem with dying isn't is not an issue for me I I and I don't say that flippantly I don't say that with any type of grandiosity. No it's just that I'm very very comfortable with it. I know that it will be difficult for people who love me to the degree especially my wife you know we've been together for a long time nonetheless I'm really comfortable with it. I s you know I can speak to it with my friends I can speak to obviously with my family my kids my grandkids you know so I'm very fortunate to have kids and grandkids and you know and I love them and and that but I'm 82 I'm not and I'm not ignorant okay I but I have no issue with it. So that's the best I can answer.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

Yeah that makes sense and I think that's yeah I I I I feel yeah I feel the same way and and it and in a way you know when those things happen it's like the divine has said you know check check check and make sure you got all your boxes done you know is there anything left you put here's a here's an opportunity to go back and double check right do over so you got a chance I've used your boxes to make sure I had all mine take care of as far as the uh the the the logistics go really well I've I've really people should should hang out with you and make sure they got it together. Logistically especially yeah I sent uh I sent uh my checklist of end of life planning to Saladin a while back so yeah so yeah thank you that's yeah thanks for the promo I appreciate that so um yeah so Saladin when you are in in companion mode with others specifically around death how do you leave that space and take care of yourself?

SPEAKER_02 30:21

You know that's a that's a great question um it's my heart I think it's anybody's heart but if you're loving in the moment then there's not a lot of places that you have to um experience a tearing away from or tearing or are you know an or escaping to so I I really the element of Sufism that grabbed me in 1976 was and I was I was uh I was just beginning to teach in in yoga in Vedanta yoga meditation pranayama but I got captured by the heart focus I realized how essential that was and so it's is keeping the focus in the heart now you know I I'm I know I'm not as I don't look warm and fuzzy maybe or like but but it's always right here for me. And so when I'm with people hopefully I can be loving them you know and and and really so when I walk away the one thing I want to walk away with is that they know that somebody cared somebody was with them and and at one time in my professional career I did a lot of forensic work. I saw people in prisons and jails and people who did crime and even then and some of them weren't very likable but I tried to leave them with the the impression that I I was interested and cared about them. And so that that makes most of the partying for me at least much easier.

SPEAKER_03 32:05

Yeah of yourself because yeah it totally does yeah can take care of ourselves by being aware of what we are creating. That's great.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

I love that that's really cool well we're getting close to the time and um I just want to make sure there's nothing else that you wish we had asked you about that you'd like to share um not really you know I would I'm just gonna say that what what would I I want you to ask me I don't know it it really boils down to the heart. It boils down to to saying it's okay to be frightened but it's but it's really important if you find that you're frightened that you want to follow through to that thread to find out where's the genesis of it. Where's the genesis and and and then find a dance that helps you understand that and and be able to live with it or resolve it.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

It's just rude if I had to say it's that excellent thank you. And you sent us that poem by Rabia would you like to read it or you want us to oh I'd love to hear somebody else read I I read it all the time.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

I actually I quote I know it so yeah but please go for it.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

You have a great voice both of you so either one of you we could uh we like to read them twice sometimes this is fairly short so why don't we do that why don't you go ahead and start the table here this is by Rabia a mystic um how long when when was she writing do you remember Saladin? Yeah it's like the six she was in the uh eighth I don't remember the idea she's in the ninth century which would be the eight hundred yeah okay anyway beautiful Sufi poet um here's her po her words ironic but one of the most intimate acts of our body is death so beautiful appeared my death knowing who then I would kiss I died a thousand times before I died die before you die said the Prophet Muhammad have wings that feared ever have that feared ever touched the sun have wings that feared ever touched the sun I was born when all I once feared I could love.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

So we'll let I do that again ironic but one of the most intimate acts of our body is death so beautiful appeared my death knowing who then I would kiss I died a thousand times before I died.

SPEAKER_03 34:50

Die before you die said the Prophet Muhammad have wings that feared ever touch the sun I was born when all I once feared I could love beautiful that's a translation by Daniel Luddinsky.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

So thank you so much for Daniel all his work so thank you Saladin it's been a wonderful time to get to learn more about your work and we appreciate you we appreciate all you do and we'll thank you thank you for um teaching me about podcasts and now I've got to see him now I've got to look at him okay yeah now you gotta see now you're uh uh uh a neophyte in the podcast world but here you go there I go kicked you into the 21st century that's a little scary but okay for last conversation at the end of the life thank you for joining us today thank you to Charles Heastan the composer of the original music you are listening to now and of course thanks to you our audience and all of our amazing guests please come back next week for another great episode share this with your friends family and community we hope you will subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky and SubSech.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Each guest additional information will be found in the podcast notes. And of course if you have a good end of life story to share please reach out. We are always eager to hear from you