SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey, welcome back, everybody, to the End of Life Conversations Weekly Dispatch. We are uh really thought thinking about today um resources and how one finds the resources you need. And we've you know we've spoken to how every um loss, whether it's a a death of a person or an animal or anything, or just all the different kinds of loss that we've talked about on our podcast, every one of those is different. And it's often difficult to find the resources you need that speak specifically to um to those to that to that loss. And so uh we just got a chance to interview a person who's publishing a magazine specifically about that. And um, we also interviewed somebody a while back who has a little grief library that you can on the side of the street where, and she she does um label them with all the different versions that she thought of, like you know, sibling, um, parent, pet, all these things, child, children's books and disease and veterans and yeah, yeah. So um, yeah. So what do you guys think? What what what's been your experience?

SPEAKER_01 1:10

I think it's really hard because I think in the moment, sometimes we just get uh shunted off into the go find the bereavement um space and therapy and grief counseling. And I think that's really a great place to start if you are encountering a death of some sort. And then I think that you know, we end up Googling things, but there are people in our communities who are are ready to support you, right? So hospice centers generally have a really strong bereavement component. So don't dismiss that out of hand if you have a loved one who has gone through the hospice setting. Like that is a good one.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Yeah, yeah. And listen to our podcast. We've got a lot of resources on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Yeah, listen to our podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Subscribers get a list of all the resources, so that's another good reason to subscribe. How about you, Sam? Is you have you run into this or what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_04 2:11

I haven't really um needed to reach out into non-personal um resource spaces in that way. So I don't know that I'll have a lot to talk about on this side of the of the conversation. I'm uh curious to learn, and I have maybe questions or curiosities about like you're saying, there is googling things and the digital social media side, and then there's these analog spaces that are happening, like magazines, uh more independent zines, little grief libraries, meetups, things like that. So I'm really looking forward to that. And uh I would also like to talk at some point in this in this uh time we have together about becoming a resource and the balance between analog and digital. Yeah. And because I'm moving into a space where I'm realizing and and discerning what skills I have to offer my community and figuring out, I guess you could call it from like a business development standpoint, but just as a service and how to reach the people that would benefit.

unknown 3:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Let's start there though, Sam. I think that it I I think I wanted to start out with saying uh every single human being can be a resource to another human being, right? So you know, we can get a call from a friend who has gone through a death. How do we feel comfortable discussing the type of death that they encountered? Is is a is a beginning, right? And there are ways that we can meet grief in others. One of them being listen, listen, listen, listen deeply, right? Hold their stories in your heart and just let them bring it all out. If there's a person who is encountering, let's say like someone who died by suicide, that's a whole nother level of care that I'm not trained to do. But like we just spoke to that person, like there are resources for those people to find in community some a bereavement counselor type of person who can support.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Yeah, and and as to ways to become more um literate around this, um, there's, you know, there's uh the work we're doing with having these conversations. That's a big one, and just starting these conversations, the uh ideas of the desk cafes or or salon, you know, desk salon or whatever. Um, one of the things I'm hoping we can put together at some point with the nonprofit is um a class about for for groups to talk about how can you be supportive in it with each other, help help, help your group, uh people in your group plan and help your group um be aware and help and be there for your people. And you know, you said be there that you know, really you could start and stop right there. Presence. Just be present. And if you can do that, you've you've got hundred ninety-nine percent of what you need to do is just be present and pay attention.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

And and if you can't be present in that moment, it's okay to say no, right? Like I I the flip side of this is like sometimes there have been moments when I'm not prepared for the grief that somebody is needing to kind of pour out. And it behooves me to be like, in this moment, I'm not capable of taking this, but you know, I can either help you find somebody who can help you with this or you know, let's figure out a different way. But it doesn't always have to be you, but when it is, you get to listen.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Yeah. First thing. And drink water.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Drink water, keep yourself, keep yourself resourced so that you can be of service to others.

SPEAKER_04 6:21

Yeah, right. Exactly. Right. And and then on the other side of that, as as we're talking around this, sort of where I am in my uh in my process is in the stable moments in community when there's not people reaching out, when there's not people in need, if you've got the extra capacity, where do you go to offer that capacity? How do you find the resources to contribute in a broader sense? Uh, you know, Joaquil, you've got uh nonprofit coming together up in your region that is aggregating service providers in that way. Yeah. And you've just done uh outreach at a farmer's market. Those could be things to talk about regarding this.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Yeah. But it does point out what you're saying, or what you're what what comes to my heart when you say that is that we all have an opportunity. We all have groups we're part of, we have communities we're part of, mostly us hope anyway. Maybe you don't. That's another that's a whole nother conversation. But if you are part of an organization, a church, a spiritual group, a um sewing group, a uh you said a sawwing grouping group or a sewing group. Referenced last week. Um but yeah, crafts, you know, or book group. There you've got a group in a built-in group of human beings that you've got a community of sorts. And bring that conversation to that community. Um, invite us to come talk to you, you know, um, or or invite someone else. There's probably somebody in your area who'd be willing to come talk to you about it. Uh a uh uh grief counselor, uh death doula, um, an attorney, maybe, um, a state attorney. Uh all these people are out there. Most of them are very willing to come and talk. And that's how that starts to happen. It's, you know, as you know, what we'll encourage our audience here. You think about what you could bring, what how where you who you connect to, who you how you can connect with those people. And then maybe we should also mention what happens if you just don't have anybody, if you're all by yourself. There are people that are, you know, isolation's a big, big problem, especially for elders. But um, yeah, I don't know. That's a that's another question. I don't know about that one.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Maybe uh it's a it's a question. I mean, unfortunately, part of how they can be supported is by paying like a spiritual director or a chaplain. I don't know that the chaplains would do that, but uh reaching out to some kind of yeah, like a spiritual companion to go through that. Yeah. But I think that there are places, I mean, I can't speak to all 50 states of ours, but library, my current library has a death cafe every month. And, you know, there's there's death circles that are cropping up. It's a big deal. I mean, you know, there's a lot of people who are going to be passing away in the next 30 years. And and there is, there already is a lot of community organization around supporting those who did not die, those who are dying. You know, how do we get there?

SPEAKER_03 9:32

So it's around.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

We just unfortunately it in those times when we need it the most, it's probably not the time that we want to be searching. Yeah. So if you have a chance to like find out some information before you get into an executive situation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's our ongoing message.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

It is. And I think that people get supported through hospitals too, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Like in hospice. Healthcare, yeah. Mental health care, that kind of thing. Um yeah. So Sam, what would you what would view be uh go ahead. It sounds like you're about you're you look like you're about to say something.

SPEAKER_04 10:12

So I'll just uh religious organizations and their place as resources, whether you uh belong to them or not. Usually if you belong to them, there's yeah, there's a community resource piece, but that's already plugged in. Right. Um, what is your experience, uh, either or both of you, with that as you know, maybe non-congregant or as an outsider going in and saying, like, hey, I don't have anybody. I really need this. And do they go, you gotta convert first?

SPEAKER_01 10:51

I mean, they probably do. I don't know. I've never had that ex I've never traveled down that road before.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

But you know what that brings up to me is that that would be a really good source to tap as we're starting to ask people to be um uh be a resource, you know, to to start talking to the churches and the spiritual organizations and saying you could be a resource for your community to deal with grief and loss, even though they're not, you know, just as a community member, as a part of the community, not as in and if you're willing to and able to do that in an ethical way, what we consider ethical, um uh then you know, can we put you on our list, you know, as some places people could call um for counsel. And some I know I've I've met pastors, uh, maybe more progressive church pastors who um definitely said, you know, anybody can stop by and I'd be very happy to give pastoral care. Um so uh there hopefully are people like that. And I I think that's a great resource I hadn't really thought about as I was starting to put together this directory. Yeah, yeah. Start reaching out some of those. So that's a great question, Sam. And uh and I was gonna ask you um as you're thinking about it, and I'd I'd love to maybe share, you could share with our audience where what you're working on and where you're headed as far as what how you're learning to be a better resource. Yeah, if you like.

SPEAKER_04 12:11

It's it's early days. Um there are a couple of communities that I'm already a part of that I see the potential for being in service. One of which is the Sufi community that um O'Keil and I are uh sort of affiliated with and connected by and Ana Luisa, yes, yes, yes. Um the other is this metal, heavy metal um healing community festival that I have been loosely and growing more affiliated with in northern Montana. And last year, especially with the the cultural connection, interweaving and and ancestor work, shadow work, all that sort of stuff, really catalyzed or or brought something up for me where I said, I can do the kind of work that I want to do here. Oh, beautiful. This is a perfect place. And so I've been making moves slowly. I've been I've made art for them in the past and um helped you know build connections with fire tenders and played music with them uh in in formal capacities. But this year I'll be volunteering and hopefully in in the future working on programming with them in in a group setting, which is really, really exciting for me. And then on a personal level, I've been I've been starting to formulate an inventory of the skills that I have already, what I am developing and what I hope to develop. And and thinking about how do I build like a website. I don't want to necessarily do it on uh on a corporate social media, but there is a a new renaissance of independent website creation.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Really?

SPEAKER_04 14:36

Yeah, and and communities in those ways in sort of an old school evolution uh independent internet space. And and so that paired with, like I was saying, digital and analog, and how do we balance them and how do we marry the two? And the idea that I've had is just you know, list all the different things. Maybe it's just nested lists of what I can offer and contact information, and then have a really simple business card that has a glyph on it and a QR code on it. And I can give that to people and say, scan this QR code and you can see the services that I offer. That's beautiful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

That is really beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

Yeah. And it's kind of a beautiful um step-by-step prescription of what others could do.

SPEAKER_04 15:30

Yeah. And I'm also going through trainings and uh applying for grad school in this in this way. Um, but go ahead, Ana Luisa.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

No, I just realized I I saw a movie at Sundance. I can't remember the title right now, but it was the it was the man who learned how to whistle the tones to get free calls. Uh yeah, yes. I can't remember what his name was. Um But what he did, he was very lonely and never and he was blind. So he had a very limited way to access the world at large. But what he did is he put um a phone number, his phone number in all the phone books as like Z Z, X, Y, Z, whatever. Like, so he'd always be the very last name in the phone book. And people could call in and just tell them, tell him their stories if they wanted to. But he always had a daily story he would share with them. And so for many, many people, they would always call in and just leave messages or he they listen to his. But I feel like watching this movie made me just delight in alternative ways for connection because when you're going through grief, you know, sometimes you just want to talk to somebody who who understands, who sees your uh that heaviness, and you're trying to like just metabolize and transmute it, right? Other times you want to meet people who have gone through similar stories so that you can, you don't have to like tell it in great detail because somebody's like, oh, I know what that feels like. But offering just a space to listen as you know, human to human care, care to care. Like I just I think that is so essential that we all refine our skills around becoming good listeners and and and yet it's that a hundred again, you don't have to do it a hundred percent of the time, but to just be ready.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

Yeah. I I like the um distinction you're making too between analog and that digital. Um my my hope for this nonprofit is that it will be start with like mutual aid, local mutual aid, where we are actually belly to belly, nose to nose, having a conversation, right? But then from that you can create a model that can go anywhere else, you know. So the digital part of it is how do we expand the reach of this, you know, of this service, um, which is you know similar here, you know. As much as we would all love to be sitting with each other in a room and talking, we get this opportunity. And um, we're we're learning to do this and learning ways to spread this word. But um it's it's uh yeah, I think that that finding that balance, that's a really big, big part of uh and and the way that's gonna happen more, I think, for all of us is to really concentrate on where do we where do we find local mutual aid resources and how do we develop, how do we create local mutual aid resources so that we can because in the end, this crazy world is probably just gonna collapse around us anyway. And we all we will have is those mutual aid groups.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Yeah. Well, and I it also struck me just now that a lot of people are are leaning into the AI piece and and asking AI to accompany them in some of these moments. So, you know, I hope that uh I just read an article. It was one of my my little death substacks. You might have gone through yours too, but she talked about how she asked AI how to garden. And I was really put off by that. I felt like I'm gonna, you know, I am not following this person anymore because it it does a disservice to to having a human connection. And grief, I believe, needs to be a human-to-human conversation. And, you know, I'm so sorry if I step on toes, but you know, a machine is only going to know what a machine knows based on who's taught it. And when you spend your your whole life literally honing the skills around um how to be of service in the death realm, I don't think a machine can come close to what I can do.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

No, absolutely. I I love I love the question that Ezra Klein asked in his recent article, um, which is like, how do we how do we force the issue of AI being used for the public good? You know, what can we do to ask the right question to create AI in a way that so that what AI can do is say, um that here's a way to create resources, here's a way to get your resources, but not give advice. I mean, there's you know, it's basically drawing the lines. Where do we draw the lines and how do we create a something that's actually good for the public use? And of course, his other point was that it's not gonna happen if it if it's controlled by five very rich people, very rich men specifically. Um and so that's a his first thing was we we need to stop that right now, if we can.

SPEAKER_04 20:25

And and I don't know we can, but which also which also speaks to what you were saying, Ana Luisa, about like who's training these things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Right.

SPEAKER_04 20:34

And you know, just to again, I might ruffle some feathers too, but but if they're being trained by or highly impacted by, you know, yes, you're aggregating, but some of them have more control by, you know, take grock for instance, highly, highly controlled and tuned by a single person. Yeah. And many of those people are in a transhuman uh high fear of the imperfection mortality part of part of the human experience. And so a model that is trained on a consciousness form that is seeking to get away from death, that is afraid of death, that is not engaged in a heartful, loving, understanding, and experience of the temporariness of life or whatever. What can it give you a good answer anything? Right. And maybe it's aggregating stuff from grief workers too, but it's, you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Yeah, we don't know.

SPEAKER_04 21:50

We don't need to necessarily go all the way down that road. The other the other thing uh I wanted to speak to on that is I would say, in or in my experience, in the preference of who you talk to about your grief, in between talking to a real person and talking to an AI, is talking to an inanimate object.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

A tree. How about a tree?

SPEAKER_04 22:20

A tree. I had this, I had this really profound experience recently, um, which I wrote about as like little everyday animisms where you recognize the spirit in each, in each whatever it is around you. And I was standing in the kitchen, and I needed to remember something to do the next day. And right where, say, an Alexa might be on uh on a countertop was a little teapot. And I was like, oh man, teapots are really great at holding things. Yes, you can pour things out, but you know, it's this little cast iron vessel. And so I said, Hey teapot, will you help me remember to do such and such tomorrow?

SPEAKER_03 23:08

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 23:09

I love it. And so not only are you building a relationship with the world around you, but it's also a really good mimetic device because you're speaking something out loud and associating that task, that memory with something in your direct vicinity. So when you see that teapot the next day, and the more you do it, the more it gets associated with that. Yeah, then it's it's good for your brain. We need to be exercising our brain, not atrophying our brain by outsourcing our thoughts. Right. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Well, and and to that point, it's uh I I always teach people that when you go into the death work, when you're showing up as a death food wife, doula, whatnot, um, it's nice to bring pals along to help you hold the sad stuff. And I've I used to keep a bowl of rocks in my in my foyer and be like, who wants to come with me today? And you know, take whoever like raised their little rocky hand, you know, got to put it in my pocket. And they got to just walk with me and witness everything. And when I came home, put it back in the bowl, like, you and I are sharing the weight of what the burden, and then you know, clean them up every once in a while with the sunshine or full moon. But yeah, you know, we we need to uh connect with a myriad of other pieces around grief. If you can't Google it, you can't find it, just yeah, find a tree, go for a walk. The earth will be really good accompaniment for you.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

Yeah. Like, you know, it's we were talking about ancestors of Balback. That's that's a resource.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

That is a resource. That's a continuum of everybody is here to support you. Just have to just say yes.

SPEAKER_04 24:49

Yeah. Learn and learn to talk to whoever is around.

SPEAKER_02 24:54

And learn to listen. Listen, but you know, once you've said something, once you've made that request and asked for some help from the ancestors from a tree, from a rock, from the pot, the teapot. Um, listen, because you're probably gonna hear something.

SPEAKER_04 25:08

More likely. And and on on that point, I I encountered uh some some piece about rebuilding those those animistic relationships around and and that like trance and and seeking in the non-physical or intuitive or spirit world for feedback and for knowledge. And and the important piece is that a lot of the messages, signals, feedback, the things you would be training yourself to listen come precognitively. So the first thought you have, yeah, write that down, hang on to that before the part of your brain that starts doubting whether it's real, whatever. And it doesn't have to be literally true, but it's insight. That first thought that you have. Information. Yeah, yeah. That's the direct transmission from your inner intuition or the the thing or the being that you're you're connecting with, however, you want to you want to construct that.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Yeah, besides having a glass of water in one hand, you should always have a journal in the other hand. And a pencil in your mouth.

SPEAKER_03 26:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:19

And and if if that's not an option, take notes on your phone. You've got it in your pocket all the time. Set it up with the notes are ready right there.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

I end up often my poetry comes to me while I'm walking, and I'll as people I'm sure people think I'm crazy because I pop my phone out and I'm reading, I'm saying poetry on my phone out loud on to my phone, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

I'd rather hear your poetry than some kind of ghastly conversation someone's having.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Yeah, well, that we try not to listen to those. Certainly don't record them. This happens, though. That does happen.

SPEAKER_04 26:51

So before we we sort of sign off to like circle back to the question of resources and different resources, I would love to hear and share some of your personal experience showing up in an unconventional resource way, Waquil at this farmer's market. You set up a booth at a farmer's market. Tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

It was really fun. We have uh the new nonprofit is called Grace Pathways, and it's about helping people with end-of-life planning and affordability and accessibility. And so we're hoping to get um a uh directory together. And we're working actually, we found a place another organization here in the Northwest here called Death Care Uh Death Care Cooperative and Um Northwest or Seattle Death Care Cooperative, Washington. Anyway, so and they were doing the same thing. So we aren't gonna do two, we're gonna have one, but it'll be a directory of resources, um, people who will offer a discount or some ex you know, some free consultation. Um, and that can be anything, death doulas, um uh attorneys, et cetera. But so setting it up and and just reaching out, creating that kind of unique uh resource, we just set this booth up and we put a sign on it. It said, Come tell us your story. And we put a bulletin board up and we said, if you write a six way six-word story about what you're grieving. And um, we filled the bulletin board up in the the time we were there.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

So cool.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

And um, and we had many, many conversations, people coming up. We also had people go, oh hell no. You know, but you know, the ones that came by and and uh had conversations that were very profound and very deep. And um uh Jessica and myself, when we were every time one would be done, we'd like we do here, you know, we just like whoa, that was really freaking wonderful. And let's breeze a little bit, you know, because it's very impactful too. Um but yeah, that's one that's a resource I think more people could do. I remember Ana Luisa when we were first talking about doing this kind of thing, maybe doing recordings on the street, you know, was you're saying you get a get a sandwich board. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yeah, our t-shirt's like, I could talk about I can hold your death story.

SPEAKER_04 29:14

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So what did that booth look like? You said there's a bulletin board. Was that visible visible to the public, to the people walking by?

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Yeah, I was hoping that I would get um some pictures from Jessica took all the pictures yesterday. Um she's traveling today. So um um I'll probably send them out. They will be on our website soon. Um, and um, we have a website and it's called grace-pathways.com, um, which talks about what we're trying to do. And I think we're gonna have a page of pictures and stuff. So yeah, it was just we had um we had the booth, we had uh table with some um resources on it, we had a sign-up sheet for people that wanted to be members. Uh and we're thinking that the membership would be something that if you're a member, you you can say you're a member when you get onto the um list of resources and and the mint the ones who will take that membership will give you a discount. Sort of like we're really following the People's Memorial model, which is here in Washington State, um, because that's exactly what they do. You two you pay for their membership. We aren't gonna ask for payment at this point. I don't think we will. Um, but just by being a member, you'll have access to this um resource list, and you'll have access to specific people who've given offered discounts for that. So um so that was there. Um the bulletin board was there very much, yeah, very much right there. It's had a little banner on the top that said, Tell us your story, give us a six-word story. Yeah, it was fun. And I was telling you about a collective grief ritual, right?

SPEAKER_04 30:41

Like it really there's the stone one with the water one, and you all go up and you you know pour your tears into this bowl. Right up, right your grief. A post-it note at the farmers market. Yeah. How cool is that amazing.

unknown 30:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

And we hope at some point to actually do short little 10-minute interviews too. Um just have people tell us their stories. Uh-huh. So that'll be and maybe that'll end up on this podcast.

SPEAKER_04 31:09

A lot. And how did you how did you navigate like privacy or the like intimacy of hearing those stories? Were they just like talking, telling them?

SPEAKER_02 31:20

That was a beautiful part of it, you know. I think you know, if we did the interviews, we'd probably step back into the back and let them be a little more private. But um, and you know, there's there's a process around getting a nonprofit into a farmer's market that if anybody wants to know, I can help you with that. Because it took some time and effort. Um, you have to have insurance, you have to have a certain kind of booth, you have to have weight, you know, things that they require. Um, which none of it was really horrible, but it took some some steps that you have to go through. The really cool part was the woman who helped me go through the whole thing kept coming over. She came over like five times and brought people to us. Because when I first talked to her, she was very like, Yeah, I don't think people are gonna want to see that, you know. But she kept bringing by people by, and at the end she came by and said, Oh my god, I'm so glad you guys are here. It was uh it was I'm so I'm converted, you know.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Isn't that great? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:11

Yeah. And what a what a replicable model, right? I mean, here in here in Portland where I am right now, there's neighborhood street fairs. There's, you know, it's not just the big farmers' markets, you know, there's all these little places. And you can other thing we were talking about is set up a table in the park. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

You don't have to go through the sandwich board thing. I remember having a table. Having a table in Sonic. What was that? I remember my son Nate doing that in New York City when he lived in New York City for a little while. He went out into one of those little, you know, they have all these little small parks and um in New York City. And he just went out and he put up a uh table with a sign that said, Come talk to me. I want to hear your story, you know. And you know, he said he heard some amazing stories, you know. Yeah. So it really is replicable anywhere, anytime. So I encourage people, and you're certainly willing, I'm uh certainly willing to talk about it with people if they want to hear the way I went through it. But but really, you don't need any instruction, just do it.

SPEAKER_04 33:08

Right. And talk and talk about talk about a way to build that community and use that capacity, like I was asking about before. If you don't know who to connect with, if you don't know what organization to connect with, if you don't have a community that's interested in doing this kind of work, you don't need anybody to go set up a table and listen to people in the yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Yeah, yeah. Anna Luisa, have you had an experience? Well, you you were talking earlier about some of experiences you've had where you had to find resources at the in the midst of the midst of your grieving and loss. And I wonder how that went for you.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Yeah, you know, I have a hard time with with uh I have a hard time with groups. Uh I personally, it's just um I've gone to the death cafes before and I like more structure for me. Some people really enjoy just like random tell, you know, tell your story kind of thing. And I just it doesn't work for me. So that's been my experience with death cafes. But let's see. Um no, I don't feel like I guess I'm more in my head too with my grief. And so reading books has been a way for me to uh kind of metabolize my my grief. When my sister died, I had a spiritual director who's really adept at working with somatic um ideas around grief work, so that helped. But in terms of groups, no, I don't I don't have a really good history of that. And I think that that's okay too, right? Like some of us aren't made for you know loud communities, places where things can happen and nobody knows what to do.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

So I'm like right.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

I don't think I need to be a part of that.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Yeah, yeah. I mean, Wendy, my wife, is going through stuff and she's the same way. She doesn't really enjoy the group stuff. You know, they've got support groups for people that are dealing with cancer. Um and she's like, she has started to join some, but she sort of it's funny the way she does it. She's like, she'll get on, she'll listen a little bit, she'll give a little feedback, and then she gets off. You know, she doesn't want to be able to do that. She doesn't want to create a do it, she doesn't want to create relationships with people that are maybe not going to be there next week, right? That's one part of it. Um, that's her personal feelings. Uh but then on the other hand, and this is what I'm hoping to be able to do with this nonprofit, one of the things is to help groups that are already existing find ways to be supportive to each with each other and to be more specific, not just to talk about it, but to be like, here's what you we here's what we can do for each other. I can help we can help each other build our best care directors, we can help each other um with with whatever with you know when this comes up with support.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

So yeah, and I guess I I like that model more. It's like and and this is kind of like the the capitalist kind of mentality, like you do something to get something done. Yeah, right. And so I I prefer to have a task than to just have it be willy-nilly because not everybody's grief or style of doing this stuff is the same. So I'm happy to have people who are circle people, be circle people. And I could be I could be, yeah, and I could be over here like I got something to do. I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_04 36:22

Yeah. And and it's the difference between uh ecstatic dance and square dancing. Right. Some people uh or dance of universal peace, some people gravitate to one or the other, and it's great to have both. Don't have to be the same. And some people really just want to let loose and just pour it out in a group setting. And sometimes the ritual side of it is really helps to metabolize, like you're saying, those things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Having a container or a different container.

SPEAKER_03 36:56

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

Yeah. Yeah. Anyhow, that's I I that's it for me. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

So we're creating uh this these resources that we create resource lists and make them available. That's again the the as you said, hospice often has those um uh hospitals, hospitals and and probably maybe your church groups and stuff. So yeah, find out where those are. Come to us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Um find a spiritual director who could find a good spiritual director.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

Um that's what we're here for.

SPEAKER_04 37:31

We're here to help. Waquil, before we go, is is the list that you're building currently, either through um this nonprofit or through the podcast, are those like shareable and replicable modes already?

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Like they could be adjusted or the one that's being worked on with the um collaborative is not done yet. Um but and the one we have, our resource document that we have is certainly we share it with anybody that subscribes or takes a class. If anybody takes the class mine, and I don't know if you've done this or not, Anna Luisa, but when people take a class with me, I always send them that resource list at the end. Um so um, so yeah, we get, you know, just a little bit of commitment on your part. But those are replicable for sure. And and because the one that we're working on is a Washington state specific, um, the point or the idea is that we can uh use that model, share that model with anybody anywhere, and um and then that part of the model would be uh for Washington State, we're doing it in a way that the the um ref resources we have will will have specific information about where they are, um, what's what areas they serve, what specific um genre they are, maybe, or what you know, what kind because some dip dualis all have different specialties, uh attorneys have different specialties. Uh and and that they're part of this program that they're willing to give a discount. So um that's kind of the main in the in general, that's the that's the way it's gonna work out. But uh and it that in that respect it's deplic replicable because anybody could do something similar in their in their neighborhood. I hope they will. And um and if the I mean if the uh nonprofit gets to where we're starting to raise some money, which we hope to do, we would love to have that spread out and like have channel um chapters. Chapters, yeah, chapters in every state, starting with Oregon and Colorado.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

It's coming, it's coming. We're we're we're doing it. So yes.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

So stay tuned.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

Keep coming back.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks you, thank you, guys. Thank you all.

SPEAKER_04 39:43

Thank you, audience. Like, subscribe, join us, uh, come chat with us on Substack. Yeah. We've got a chat going, starting up, um, and we want we want your feedback. And then it'll be in the podcast notes.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

So all right. Much love. Adios.

SPEAKER_03 39:59

Adios and time gave the last conversation's back in the flies.