SPEAKER_00 0:00

How do you talk about death for the family before Crisis forces your hand? Former nurse, end-of-life educator, and uh good friend of the pod, Monica Kumar, joins us again today to share practical conversation starters about death and dying, how to bring up death with aging parents, and how starting with a legacy instead of logistics can reshape the very foundations of these tender conversations.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Yeah, such a good and important thing. We really enjoyed talking to Monica again. She brought really grounded and no pressure guidance, I think, that can help anyone who's meaning to have this conversation and wanted to, but just didn't know where to start. And I meet people all the time that tell me that's the case. So this is a great podcast I pleased to enjoy.

SPEAKER_05 0:51

Welcome back, everyone. Thank you for joining us today. I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Armandares, and today we are pleased to talk with our friend and former guest, Monica Kumar. Monica is an end-of-life educator and a former nurse from Vancouver, Canada, who is now based in Tulu, Mexico. She creates structured, values-based planning resources that help people prepare for medical, legal, financial, and personal decisions before a crises. She is the creator of Life's Lasting Plan, One Night at the Table. And if something happens to me, and the author of Beyond Lost, The Power of Purposeful Grief.

SPEAKER_04 1:35

Thanks for being here. Thank you for having me again. So nice to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

So much great stuff. Can't wait to hear more about all that. So Monica tells us her work is shaped by her personal experience. Conversations about death were a normal part of her family life, which is unique in some ways. And when her mother dies suddenly, that foundation of openness allowed her to navigate decisions and responsibilities with greater clarity, even in the midst of grief. So through her work as a nurse and educator, she has seen how difficult these moments can be when important conversations and guidance are missing and it's often missing, right? Her programs provide step-by-step structure, audio guidance, and written tools that help people clarify their wishes and communicate them in ways that reduce future uncertainty for the people closest to them. What an amazing work. Thank you so much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 2:29

So last time we talked about the why having these conversations around death were really important. And now you've got new work that's come out, and you're working with the how to have these talks.

SPEAKER_04 2:43

So tell us more about that. So it's been interesting because I had these works. Well, the the big program, um, Life's Lasting Plan, which had a different name before, that I've changed the name also based on some feedback of people going through the programs. Um but what I've noticed a lot with people is that they when I talk about what I do, I'm sure you guys have experienced this too. When I talk about what I do, they're like, oh my God, if I only wish I'd would have known about somebody like you when my dad was going through something or who, you know, my mom was going through something before we had the crisis, sort of, right? But at the same time, we are constantly coming into contact with the people that are in the pre. And they resist, right? Because they're, you know, we're not there yet. Oh no, no, we don't want to talk about that yet. And then, you know, space, crisis. Now it's like, oh my gosh, if I would have known about people like you before. And so, yeah, you know, as as educators and um facilitators and all of the different terms that we have for ourselves doing this work, is like, how do we close that gap? Where is the opportunity to close that gap so that less people have to say if only right? Right. And so I think um for me, it's been really encouraging people around. And we did talk about this a little bit last time, but I've kind of gotten more in depth of this of like how to start the conversations. I heard that you guys had a um podcast recently about that, right? How to start the conversations so that they feel less um threatening, I guess is the word. And nerve-wracking. Nerve-wracking and um overwhelming. Right. Right. And and and more, I mean, I almost want to say encouraging, but I guess I'll just try and explain that with this next sentence that when we open the conversation with death, or we open the conversation with who's gonna get the car, or you know, something like that, people tend to shut down more. And if we have other ways of starting the conversation, perhaps people wouldn't shut down as much. So, what are those other ways that we can start the conversations? And, you know, giving sort of a a variety of of options so that you know different people can apply it to themselves. So it's like starters. And so for me, um, I've really seen that you know, just talking about life is the starting point and not talking about death, right? Talking about what matters, what's the most important. Um, and so even with in that I've I've changed the the sort of subtitle of my work as instead of end of life planning, I've now started calling it life and legacy planning. Beautiful. And so, and then also the name of my program has changed to Life's Lasting Plan, also taking away the whole idea of like, you know, having to state so literally like end of life, right?

SPEAKER_05 6:10

Yeah, I'm gonna sort of say I I think there's room for all those different types of of titles, right? Because you will find people who are okay with a death word and others won't be, but you're gonna be offering a place for talking about life, which includes death. But I I appreciate that, yeah, language matters. Language matters matters when we're having any kind of conversations that makes people feel vulnerable, or really any types of conversations.

SPEAKER_04 6:40

Like I was just having a conversation this weekend about something completely else, how I can say the exact same thing to five different people in the exact same way, and every single person is going to take it differently, right? So, you know, some people can really handle that directness of, you know, we're gonna talk about end of life. And and it's also more um recognizable and a little bit more um literal, right? Where they know exactly what you're talking about if someone would know exactly what you were talking about if you said end of life planning or estate planning. That's another sort of you know, semantics that and and and it doesn't mean even that I say the exact same thing to every single person, but I have kind of gone more into this idea of talking about it as life, or another thing that people really understand is estate planning. And so I've sort of um, you know, broadened the definition of what that means within my program, where I kind of consider, I consider it or call it modernized estate planning or holistic estate planning, because um, as before we talked about, like, you know, there was a time where people were kind of a little bit more just assets-based, you know, say for example, before there were so many options within healthcare, or before families were more um, you know, fragmented or just differently structured than they are today, things were more state straightforward in a certain way. And so I just kind of, you know, feel like these documents that we have trusts, wills, um, you know, power of attorney and all of these things, they're exactly the same as they've always been, you know, for a long time, anyways. And so moving into 2026, how does even basic estate estate planning or the understanding of estate planning have to broaden and change and be a little bit more holistic as well?

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

So true. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody we interviewed a while back said they like to talk about living in the dash. So it's like between you know the uh the date of your birth and the date of your death, and there's that dash in between. So I love that you're bringing that in and and really talking about the the uh holistic, I love that word too, holistic way of looking at estate planning and legacy. Yeah, so that's so important. Great work, wonderful work. Thank you for doing that. Very appreciated.

SPEAKER_04 9:12

And helping people also to see what legacy is. You know, some a lot of people believe that legacy is this really massive thing that they have to leave behind. And if they're not leaving one of those sort of um classic ways that people like a charity somewhere or something, you know, then they they don't really see what they are leaving as a legacy, but also helping people to understand that there's so many things big and small. And the small things can be so big as precious, they're also precious, precious, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Yeah, yeah. Like Ana Luisa talks about her toys, right? Who's gonna who gets too legacy?

SPEAKER_05 9:53

Yeah, all my Funko Pop figures. Oh my gosh, I don't even know what that is. Oh my god, don't don't go down that road.

SPEAKER_04 10:01

Like recipes, I feel like legacy is also just like anything that keeps your spirit alive and people, keeps your name or your role alive in people's minds and people's hearts out of people's mouths, right? So food is a massive thing for certain families. Um, my family was a card writing family. Like we wrote cards to each other and like we wrote cards, like the whole card was filled out. It wasn't like two from whatever, you know? And um, and I have all of them that, you know, all three of us, my mom, my brother, and me all wrote to each other. And to me, that's uh that's a light. Yeah, it's like it's beautiful, all the beautiful words that we said to each other and those kinds of things. So yeah, so within the so uh moving on from the starting of the conversation is also how to help people feel like the conversation is um doable, contained. So it's not just having a start, it's also having a scope and having um a time limit, even perhaps. So the one night at the table, for example, is um I took a just a uh, I guess a section out of the big uh program Life's lasting plan that includes medical and legal and financial and the and the and I just did the medical, so it's kind of similar to other um documents and formats that are out there to help people with medical planning, but just you know, in a different uh language and a little bit of a different format for who that speaks to. And I kind of try to make it so that you could have this within a 90-minute conversation with your family. And that at the end of that, even though maybe you're not complete in your planning, you do feel like you have something tangible and useful right there, right? It's not like, oh, we did this, but now we still have to do this and that and that before we have something that's like actually usable. Because the other thing is when people try and have these conversations, if they don't have any sort of direction or you know, sort of step-by-step framework to go by, the conversation can go to so many different places. And people can feel like, oh my gosh, I really wanted to have this conversation. I put the effort, I was brave, I brought it out, and then we talked about so many things. Except the thing. Except the thing, or we talked about the thing, but we didn't get any clarity out of it. We didn't get any answers out of it or any forward where we can go from here to kind of get it. So so yeah, um this idea of a conversation container. So a start, a scope, a time limit, and then clear next direction, whatever, whatever that is.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

That's great. So that's for yeah, I think that's part of, you know, it's like I I was I was a project manager, so you know, having those the flows and the you know, the the things you want to get to and the timelines, that's so cool to put that in in that way. Can you tell us more about the the way that same structure can be used across different areas of planning? Because you you might mention that you can also use this for other things. You can and the same tools can guide people through other processes that they're going through, kind of step by step.

SPEAKER_04 13:20

As far as um the end-of-life planning or life and legacy planning.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

Just the the project in general, this kind of step-by-step, like you said, the container that you've created.

SPEAKER_04 13:31

So the mini ones that I've created are the two. One is if something happens to me, and that is for specifically for parents of young children. And so also imagine if you're trying to think of like if people, because I do think everyone who has children, I don't have children, but I imagine that everybody who has children, even briefly, would have thoughts of like, what if something happens to me? And then if they tried to sort of within their own mind think about everything that they would have to plan for, again, it would feel very overwhelming. Um, so I wanted to create something that helped people to. This was from um an um suggestion from a a friend of mine that has young children to have the four most important things that you should plan for for your children, either for you to be able to have this conversation with your partner, um, you know, the other the between the parents of the children or with the greater family, and um talk about myths and ideas that people have that aren't true, such as godparents having any kind of like legal authority over children or legal um responsibility. And so she asked me that she told me that she thought that would be a good idea. So that's if something happens to me. So that has guardianship financial resources that exist today, how the people that have the guardianship would be able to access that and how the parents wishes of how those finances would be used, and then again, medical decision, medical decision making for the parents, sort of big picture things like um CPR and ventilation, because that's again like you know, showing values and guiding um the direction of something that could potentially happen. And then the last thing is how do you make those three things that you've just covered legally binding? So that again, you have like something very tangible, very useful, and quite complete that you have just from doing those four things without doing anything else yet.

SPEAKER_03 15:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:40

So what do you actually, I'm just curious, what do you recommend people do for that one for to legalize it?

SPEAKER_04 15:46

So guardianship has to be in the in a will, right? That's part of what um that part that's part of what goes in in your will. So if you do have um minor children or dependent children or dependent adults, um the only way to make that legally binding as far as as far as guardianship goes is in a will. And then financial is just um, you know, giving that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:13

And but the will is going to have to be done either with a notary. I'm I'm just asking the the legal aspect of that document. You'd have to go through a notary or a lawyer. Sometimes a lawyer. So there is a cost to this to make it uh binding. Binding, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:31

Yeah, yeah. And that's, you know, I make that even with the um one night at the table, the medical planning. Um, you know, I think that in theory, if you had my documents that I've created that have all of the your decisions and a signature and your um your um decision maker or your proxy, um say also always trying and explain to people that they're not actually a they should not actually be a medical decision maker, right? They shouldn't actually be making decisions for you. They should be using your voice and not having that um weight on them. So I like healthcare proxy is a better um term for that in a way. So, you know, I feel like say if something, if you had that document made, done, completed, my document, and there was no other legal documentation, I feel like, you know, standing. It would stand because no one else is arguing or whatever. But obviously the best course of action is to make it legally whatever the advanced directives are for your state or for your region. And then yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:36

That's what I was gonna get to because I think that for what I do in Colorado, I just have two witnesses if I don't have a notary, and that's is sufficient, the state of Colorado. And but I just was thinking about that as a I I've never thought about the guardianship piece. I mean, I've thought about it for my own kids, but I'm always like, I'll talk to the people and not really, you know. So I I have found myself over the years prior to starting this work, that I got hung up with the lawyer piece because every time I called a lawyer, it was always so prohibitively expensive to do that small part, like the guardianship. So, you know, I just uh I I will I wish we had more access for folks to get these paperwork, these papers done without having to hire a lawyer to to make it binding. That's just it's just kind of interesting to me. Just think about that.

SPEAKER_04 18:28

There are, and I haven't checked this for um if you can include guardianship in this, but there are now um online sort of if you have a very simple estate, for example, there are online um platforms that you can sort of do your own will online, and then the only thing that needs to be done in the end is I think a lawyer needs to sign for it. So it's a very affordable, like even $40. Um, but I don't, I I haven't, and I should now actually check to see if there's any way that guardianship can be um included in that. So, but going back to that for your situation, for example, yes, talking to the people, um, but there's also a um sort of uh what would the right word be? Like a you know how when you a hierarchy, exactly. And there's a certain way that the court looking at your situation, like say at your family or you know, who the options were blood can first and then but even within your family, see there's uh say there's also a a certain fit, you know, factors that they look at to see, oh, this person, you want this person to take care of your child because you they are most aligned with your values and you're the one that and you've had the conversations with them and they know and everyone knows. But if there's no legal document, the court might decide, well, this person actually has more resources, money, right, right, right, really to and so the kid's gonna be better off with them, and you're like, no, no, no. And that's what so that's the danger of not having it.

SPEAKER_05 20:02

It is, it really truly is. I I've thought about that. And I also I you know, just I I have hit walls in my personal planning because of the lawyer piece.

SPEAKER_03 20:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:13

On that note as well, still, um, this is a part of the reason why, and I don't know, I feel like I've contributed to this, but you can confirm or not confirm to me. Like, I feel like getting people 100% set up in the maximum that I can for their appointments with their lawyers, yeah, that can reduce cost of the lawyer because they're not having to go scratch from that, right?

SPEAKER_05 20:37

And the lawyer is gonna be like they have their boilerplate of how they want to manage you for their time.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:44

But it is very helpful to show up with all of this already pre exhausted. Exhausted all the thoughts, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:51

So I have this ready for you. Yes, right. Absolutely right. And also, you know, just to be open and honest, also, and just say, you know what, I need to reduce your fee, you know. So I've created this thing, and you know, hopefully we can get it done in one hour or a maximum two hours of a lawyer's time and be done, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:10

Yeah, it is interesting. I I will say that I have started I have a disabled daughter, and so I'm working on a trust for her. Um, but I got way late by the same thing. Like the lawyer piece, I did go for an hour with this lawyer, and then the clock starts running, right? And then I have to like figure out so many different aspects that are really difficult to decide on because like I'm a single mom and she has a father, and there's there's so many different layers to taking care of this kiddo that um, yeah, I I put that on the shelf. I have not taken I have not looked at that since February. And so yeah, it's hard. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Yeah. I mean, one of the things that we we've heard over and over again in teaching planning and these things is people who either don't have anybody they feel like they can trust as a healthcare agent or the power of attorney, um, or of course the fund uh Amount of money is just so hard. Um, it costs a lot of money to die in the US and United States. So um probably anywhere, but mostly and more here, I think. But um so we actually I'm just starting a uh nonprofit to specifically address that, to try to help people find those resources that are less expensive and then hopefully raise money to help them pay for resources. Um so that's I but I think that's still a huge gap in our country to for many, many people. And um and guardianship is one of the ways you could do that because there's somebody who's you know um vetted to be a uh you know safe, fair fiduciary, um, but it's not doesn't it's not free and it costs some money. In fact, I'm having a conversation with our local person this next week um to see what kind of uh connection we could make through this organization with like making a like a collaboration of some sort so we could find people who say, Yeah, I would be willing to do this for less money.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

And and sometimes when you do go to the attorney, if you just say, I can't afford your price, sometimes it I found there are attorneys who will say, Okay, we can do better for you.

SPEAKER_05 23:07

Work on it, yeah. Well, and also the thought about uh attorneys, uh, I didn't realize this, but the attorney I started this process with, he wants to know how he's going to be paid after I die to like take care of the things. So he's like, So where are you gonna leave money for me to spend time taking care of all this?

SPEAKER_03 23:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:28

And I was like, wow, I don't know. Like, I'll get back to you.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:34

So there is, it's so multi-layered, but I do appreciate Monica that you set out the framework for people to carry it to whomever, right? Like it depending on your state or your country, like what does it really mean? And at least having a foundation piece to set it down somewhere.

SPEAKER_04 23:52

And that I mean, it's still better that that thing exists, right? Not exist, even if you don't get it legally bound, right? Because if you if you are can be sure, for example, that I mean, like we can't ever be 100% sure, but there's different, you know, levels of sure that you can be that if you've decided that this is who you want your daughter to go to, and even if you haven't had, you know, legal, have it legally binded, that you are, you know, somewhat sure that people aren't gonna argue your decision.

SPEAKER_05 24:23

Right.

SPEAKER_04 24:24

Right.

SPEAKER_05 24:24

Well, and and every time I leave the country, I you know, a friend of mine reminds me, he's like, all you have to do is write up a thing, sign it, take it to the bank, and have them just notarize it. That's this was this was a thought that you had. This is your current, you know, standing on this decision making. Yeah. And he's like, it's it's small, it's a thing, but it's better than nothing.

SPEAKER_04 24:45

It's better than nothing. And like I heard that you in this, I this is not the case in Canada, I don't think, but you can get things notarized at the bank for about $20 or something.

SPEAKER_05 24:54

Actually, my my bank, well, I have a yeah, I have a bank. Uh I don't actually bank there anymore, but my ex-husband kept our things open. So I'm still officially on that bank and it's free at that bank, but my credit union is a little different, which irritates me because at the credit union, you have to bring in your own witnesses. So I've tried to go there to get things notarized, and he's like, nope, but you have to bring people in with you to do this to the so yes, so it is it is contingent on which bank you're at and if you are a member there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:25

But it's still uh, you know, because uh when I was doing my advanced care planning specialist uh school training, it was in in the states, and so they're talking like, okay, and then do this and get it notarized, and then do this and get it notarized, and do this and get it not. I'm like, I live in Mexico. Yeah, no, notaries are higher than um lawyers here. That's it's in in the reverse. And you know, there's no going to you know, the Bank of America and getting something notarized. It's uh you cannot get every single document notarized here, right?

SPEAKER_05 25:57

But like in Colorado, it it is you can do a notary, like for advanced care directive. Um when I did my training, they said it would be great if you had a notary, but two witnesses are all it takes. And as long as those witnesses aren't actually in that document as the proxy, then you're fine. So I've always just had people come with you know, like there's a bunch of us, let's just sign each other's papers.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Yeah, yeah, that's a great way to do that. See, and again, like help. Um it's different in every jurisdiction, too. So we it's really another thing we keep emphasizing, make sure you know what's right, what'll work in your but I love and I think it's really true that even if it's not all the legally binding stuff that we talked about, it if it ends up in the court, if it ends up in an intestacy or or in um uh uh whatever that word is um, probate, probate, yeah. Um the court is going to pay attention to the things that you've written in the record. They're gonna there's a much better chance that your wishes will be fulfilled.

SPEAKER_04 26:54

They have nothing versus something. Something, right. Yeah. And I feel the same about um healthcare decision makings, right? Like decision making. I feel like, you know, hopefully doctors and you know, other healthcare providers are concerned and would like to see what your wishes are. And if there's something versus something perfect and legally bound, that they still are gonna, you know, recognize that and take it into consideration. Right. And that comes back a little bit to your healthcare proxy a little bit too, where you say, You um, I I really encourage people when in the program that choose your healthcare proxy and say if you're having a conversation with somebody about okay, who is your healthcare proxy, who would you like to be speaking for you, and ask them why they're choosing that person and get them to really, you know, sort of again reflect on why are they choosing that person? Are they the right person? And one of the qualities of those people is are they gonna be able to advocate for you? Right, yeah, right. And are they gonna be able to say, no, no, no, this is what they wanted, and I'm gonna do my best to make sure that that happens. Because you can, you know, there's a lot of power struggle in in in the healthcare system. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:10

Against Yeah, I teach that in one of my courses that I that I teach uh racial, economic, and cultural differences in end of life. And I always tell people who are POC if if you can find a white person, a white male who can be part of the hospital interface, if there are things that are really important to you that you find that people may not be wanting to support, you need somebody who's going to be easier for that person to face, interface with the medical system.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:44

I that is a thing. I mean, uh, as a chicana in this country, I've I've witnessed this firsthand. And I uh I've had to switch my my uh my guard my proxies for that reason. Just be like it's hard in this country when you show up as, you know, maybe a second language English speaker or POC, something that, you know, it we know studies show that those as soon as a person sees that they're kind of dismissed in a way. So yeah, there's a lot of considerations to take when choosing that person for sure.

SPEAKER_04 29:17

Whew, that really hit me what you just said. Yeah. Um, because it's just one of those things that we absolutely don't want to think that that's what we have to do today, still. You know, we would hope that no, that's not what we have to do. Actually, that people are more educated and are like no, you know, and yeah, nope.

SPEAKER_05 29:37

That is it's not it's not the thing. And so yeah, when I'm teaching this class with chaplains, I always tell them to be aware of this potential issue and be an ally for folks if they're in a hospital situation and uh a family is having a hard time being heard, or culturally they are embarrassed to ask for what they want.

SPEAKER_04 29:58

Right. Yeah. So it might be very different from what another or yeah, what's acceptable when another culture would want, or how they would how they would proceed. Yeah. Yep. Wow. Yeah. I know.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

All right. Do you do you have anything you would define as really big challenges in this work that you're doing? That are that's that are the hardest things to get by, or you know, yeah, to that that are that you found has been like people. That's a barrier. Yeah, a barrier. That's a good word for it.

SPEAKER_04 30:32

I mean, it's always the it's always the resistance. It's always the resistance, right? And and fear resistance, um, avoidance. And I've actually found that because you know, I as we've talked about, I live in Tulum, so I'm very sort of isolated from other professionals or even really from like a quote unquote normal society, right? So everyone here is kind of young and free.

SPEAKER_05 31:00

Wait, wait, wait. It's it's a like, yeah, it's like a different, it's it's a you you live in a normal society if they're in Tulum. Have you been here? I was yeah, I've been there a couple of times. No, but I'm saying is like uh the normalcy of, well, actually, you live in a place where a lot of illegal immigrants probably, white illegal immigrants, are trying to do whatever they're they want to do, right? So the normalcy for the people of Tulum is there. It's just the pe the outsiders who have intruded and are like taking up space are like, this is the way we should have it here.

SPEAKER_04 31:33

But like with the the demographic of people that are here, you know, are quite the the average age of the immigrant, as you say, population here is pretty low. Like that it's you know, young, quite young, um, obviously very diverse, very like free. And so um, so interestingly, when I I go to these events um here where there's a lot of women or a lot of people, and we we present what we what we do. And so when I present what I do, and usually I talk more about um my meta, my meta goal, which is to contribute to this shift of culture. We're talking about death is is more normalized. I don't necessarily always talk about the planning or sometimes I talk about my book because it's more about grief. And young people, young people will come to me and say, I'm so happy that you talked about that because I've really wanted to talk. I just really wanted to echo death. This is why death cafes have been very um successful in a lot of places in the world and stuff. So um, you know, but then that doesn't really lead to, and I'm happy for that. I'm happy for that because that is my my meta goal, as I say. But it's not, you know, these people are not the same people that are encouraged now to start planning. Right. Right. Like they just want to talk about it. They've been through something, they or or themselves or family member. And so um there's still, even though that there sometimes is um a real um desire to talk about death, and they're like, Oh my gosh, I'm so happy that you just took the the taboo out of it. It doesn't actually necessarily lead to there's still avoidance when it comes to to planning and resistance to planning, like, oh no, but I don't want to talk about my I'm 25 years old and I want to talk to you about death, but I don't want to go and now talk to my mom about planning, right? So that's that's the biggest challenge. That's the biggest challenge is just, you know, and again, you know, what we talked about at the very beginning that if I only would have known about you, yeah, but if you had have known about me, you most, you know, often you wouldn't have used my services, you wouldn't have used my services, right? So that is the biggest challenge. The biggest challenge is that everyone, everyone, everyone knows on some level, right? That we should be planning yes, they should be talking to their parents, whatever it is, right? So that's the biggest challenge.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Yeah, yes, yeah. So there you go. You got the conversation container to help you get that thing started. That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 34:06

Because then I'm like, well, what about if you didn't, you're not gonna go to your mom and say, Mom, when you die, what's you get really sick, what's gonna happen? No, you're gonna start with this other conversation and all the examples that are there. Would you feel better about having that conversation? You know, and yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

That's great.

SPEAKER_05 34:23

That's right. So, what frightens you about the end of life? We've asked you this before.

SPEAKER_04 34:29

We've asked you and I mean, yes and no, you know, is it's I just yeah, not and not knowing how, where, when, and if really if I'm gonna be alone or not, you know, like and not the in the moment of death, but in in what's what's leading up to death, you know, how much am I gonna suffer? Like what are you know, what's gonna be available to me at the time. Like, I don't know that we talked about this the last time, but I'm I'm Canadian, lived in Mexico now for almost 10 years. I really feel like I don't identify with with Canada really anymore. Um, I can't see myself going back there. But one of the things that I mean, I I would almost go back there just because I want to have access to MAID at some point. You know? Because that, you know, Mexico, you can kind of get it done like a true euthanasia kind of thing. Per privately, I guess it would be called. But um I don't think that MAID will ever become widely accepted in Mexico just because of the um the Catholic culture. The Catholic culture. Although it has been happening in in other Latin American countries slowly, but from massive activism. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:52

Yeah, I think I saw a documentary about somebody in uh Argentina, Chile. I don't remember, but it was the whole end of their life. It was really beautiful. But yes, it's coming, hopefully, but slowly in some places. Yeah. But I'm glad that you have us a little bit of a plan, if that is the case, to go back to Canada.

SPEAKER_04 36:14

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to know when though, right? Like we don't know when. Obviously, I think, okay, no, I'll wait a little longer until I'm like, I don't know, 65, 70, I don't know. But then at that point, I feel like I would be more um disconnected from Canada, less identified with the place, you know. And so going back there would be to like to what? And like just just for that sort of thing, you know? Yeah. Um but you know, all I can do, the the best that I do is just try and keep myself as well as possible, you know, take care of myself as best as I can, yeah, and and hope that I stay as functional as possible until maybe so. That's all that's all we can do, is something we don't really have any control over, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Yeah, it's a mystery for sure. It's a mystery.

SPEAKER_04 37:10

It's a mystery. And you know, the the dementia dementia, which is what we talked about last time, that is a yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

I I totally hear that. Yeah. Um we're kind of at toward the end of the time. Is there anything you wish we would have asked you about?

SPEAKER_04 37:25

I mean, I there probably is, but I can't think of it right now. I think that was a really lovely conversation. And um I think we touched some really good points throughout, and hopefully, you know, it reaches people in the Yeah, I hope it will.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Certainly add all these lists, these things in the list so that uh in the podcast notes so people can reach out and learn more. I I really appreciate what you're doing, it's so important. And thank you.

SPEAKER_05 37:55

It's a tricky thing, but you know what I really appreciate about your work is that you're listening to the feedback that you're getting.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:01

Because, you know, it behooves us to figure out language or no language that is that supplements the feeling of wanting to take care of something, right? Like we want to take care of you. We the you being whoever's uh closer to the end of life. And you know, we are you know, we were just talking to somebody who had talked about checklists and how we were we're just handed checklists to do the thing at the end of life, like do this, do this, do this, and this is a good death. And there is space for that, but there's also space for listening and trying, uh not trying, but just listening and being present to whatever comes up in a way that you need to include that person in this conversation, right? Like it's it's not gonna be one way or the other. It's we're all we're all different, different things trigger us into different places. And but I appreciate that you are listening and that you're shifting your conversations.

SPEAKER_04 38:59

It's important to and also, you know, it's like having those conversations, like a checklist. Actually, that's sort of part of my messaging around, you know, what I do, that this is much more than documents, much more than checklists. And having conversations, like even if you don't end up having checking things off, if you are truly listening, you can extract it. Yes, you can extract something out of those conversations that can help give you some direction. Yeah, right. Absolutely, some value, something that's super important, something that means quality of life to that person.

SPEAKER_05 39:37

Right, you know, that in a nutshell is exactly what it is. Like you're listening for those pieces that are important to this human life in their path on this in this world, right? Um, because I always tell my kids, you I may end up in a situation that we have not talked about, but you will know that I I have a value system around being able to walk out in nature. I have a value system about you know being uh a little mobile to get around and do my own thing. Because I I'm a I'm a mountain goat. Like I just need to like run around a little bit and eating and reading my books, like it's that those are values. So if any of those things interferes with that as a potential life, then my kids are like, Yeah, mom would not want this. So you're you're listening for those value pieces as you carry on.

SPEAKER_04 40:29

So absolutely, yeah. And it like you said, you can apply them to other things. Like I always say in the planning, especially the caregiving planning part of my um the complete plan. The complete plan includes planning for caregiving. And obviously, we're not going to be able to plan for every situation, for every scenario. But having that sort of you know structure and framework and like the way that they thought about it, it can just help to lead you to all of the other, you know, possible possible scenarios. And so yeah, bring it back all to the conversation, just have the conversations, have the conversation, have the conversation. Yeah.

unknown 41:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:16

We said this.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Did we remind you to have a conversation? Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 41:24

Oh, Monica, thank you for your hard labor of helping other people through this time.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

Yeah, and thanks for getting back in touch and letting us know more about your your ongoing work.

SPEAKER_04 41:34

I love obviously everything that you guys are doing too. And if um you could send me information at some point about the um, was it an NGO that you said you were sorting?

SPEAKER_01 41:44

Oh, a nonprofit, non-profit.

SPEAKER_04 41:45

A nonprofit, yeah. Yeah, and see if I can help in any way towards that. Because with people that go through my programs, they also have the opportunity to have a call, like have calls with me throughout. And so that's the way that I sort of help people to instead of if they don't want to do it or they can't do it, I help them to figure out what's what's correct in their region or what resources are available in their region. So that way I kept my programs very um universal. Um, but that's how I help people more individually or region-based or province-based, state-based, wherever they are. So if I can help in any way, I'm happy to. Oh, thank you very much. Yay, Monica.

SPEAKER_03 42:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to Charles Eastad, the composer of the original music you are listening to now.

SPEAKER_05 42:40

And of course, thanks to you, our audience, and all of our amazing guests. Please come back next week for another great episode. Share this with your friends, family, and community. We hope you will subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Good Sky, and Talk. And of course, if you have a code and the life storage share, we're always eager to hear from you.