SPEAKER_01 0:00

On today's episode, we get to speak with death duelists Jen Flaylock and Shelby Mundi. They discuss what end of life can look like when it's built around community and connection instead of just isolation or loneliness. We're doing it on your own, basically. In this case, they share with us how Jen became the death doula for Shelby's husband when he was dying with cancer. And then afterwards, Shelby said, you know, I want to participate. I want to do this too, right? So in that way, that loss led them to co-found an organization that they've worked together on called Before I Die Cincinnati.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

So join us today as we go into detail about what a death doula actually does, some green burial options, and how events like their Before I Die festival are helping communities normalize talking about death and approaching death with less fear and stigma. So stay tuned.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Another great episode. Welcome everyone to this episode of End of Life Conversations. I am the Reverend Waquil David Matthews, and today we have the privilege of speaking with Jen Blaylock and Shelby Mundi. Jen and Shelby. Yeah, welcome you guys. Hi.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

They met in 2023 when Jen served as the death doula for Shelby's husband, Nick, who died of cancer in August of 2024. Walking through Nick's end-of-life journey together was profound and in transformative. I'm glad that's true. That's always true. And it sounds so sweet what you put together with it. So it was marked by deep grief, of course, tenderness, meaningful connections, and an experience that revealed how the dying process can be approached with intention, presence, and reduced fear.

SPEAKER_04 1:58

Yes, and hello, I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Armendadis. Jen and Shelby's partnership was formed through a shared commitment to compassionate death care. Together they combine professional guidance, personal insight, and a heartfelt presence to support individuals and families through one of life's most sacred passages to their organization, Before I Die, Cincinnati. So welcome. Welcome, welcome. And their podcast.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

Oh Jay, how do we even begin this one?

SPEAKER_00 2:58

It's hard, I bet. Probably to begin a bit at the beginning, when five years ago I became a death doula, and I was called in to do this work, as many death doulas are, for in a whole variety of ways, you know, that it's very interesting to learn about that on podcast and ask people how they came into the work. Mine, I came in because of a dream from my maternal grandma, Nana. And in that dream, she was dead and on a slab, like looking so sweet. And she was asking me to resuscitate her. And in the dream, I did that. And I just thought, wow, what a strange dream, you know, and I went about my day. And then a random newsletter showed up in my email inbox, and there was an article about death doulas. I was like, what is a death doula? Yes. Yep. Strange. I had this. That was the spark. And I, you know, slowly found my way as a death doula here in Cincinnati. And then uh, you know, Nick became one of my first clients, really, Nick Mundy. And in the work we did together, which this is a blessing that rarely happens, we were working together a year and a half before he died. And that unfortunately does not happen. And then Shelby came in.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Yeah, so Jen and I actually, you know, while Nick was working with Jen, we would just see each other in passing. That was kind of my time to go take care of myself as I was a full-time caregiver for Nick and my kids at the time. Um, so we didn't really speak much. But then the day that I go to the hospital, and it was kind of a shocker to me to find out that Nick was actively dying. Uh he had been experiencing confusion for a few weeks, but we all chalked it up too. It just was the chemotherapy he was on. And so the day I walked into the hospital and they're like, hey, you need to get Nick home. He's dying. I was just in complete shock. Wow. And the first person I called was Jen. And so Jin came there and walked us through the whole process. And that is, I would say, where our relationship started. Um, but it wasn't until like a year, maybe not even a year after Nick died, but um maybe six months after Nick passed. I just, you know, Nick was my purpose. He there was so much purpose in caring for him and my boys. And so when he passed, I kind of felt like, well, my my purpose is past too. You know, where am I supposed to go from here? And I'm sitting on the couch and I just get this like message that I'm supposed to do death work and go be Adula. So I go and get trained through Anelda. And Jen and I just started kind of working together from there and had the first Before I Die Cincinnati festival um October of last year, which really just confirmed that our relationship was meant to be. And so then we took the steps into doing the client work and just being full business partners in Death Doolis Cincinnati and Before I Die Cincinnati.

SPEAKER_05 6:36

That's so amazing.

SPEAKER_04 6:38

I love how spirit works through dreams and everything because I I also had like something or someone say to me Death Midwifery. And it was like, wait, what? And so I love how both of you have like you heard the voice to go do the thing. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Yeah, that's beautiful. I like I'd like to hear more about the um about the work that you're doing, also that the how that um conference went and uh so maybe some um insights from you that you got from the conference and the kind of people that showed up, because you know, those are always important.

SPEAKER_03 7:10

Yeah. Yeah, we're we're so excited about the conference. You wanna you want to share a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Yeah. When we did the conference last October, it was very much a DIY effort. And uh have you all heard of Before I Die festivals?

SPEAKER_01 7:29

I don't think so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Okay, so it's I I guess it's pretty small, but uh there's a woman named Gail Rubin out of New Mexico. Oh, yeah, of course. Out of New Mexico. That's who we we interviewed her.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Okay, then she's great.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Yeah, she she's super helpful and has been doing her festival, and that it's really grown. It's amazing what she has been doing. And there was a festival up in Dayton, Ohio that's about, you know, 50 minutes up the road from Cincinnati. And I spoke at at one of those festivals, and I was like, you know, we need to do a festival like this in Dayton, I mean, in Cincinnati. So we put together a day of death education, and Shelby and I just DIY'd it and got it done, and it was amazingly successful. You know, the question was are people in Cincinnati ready to have conversations about death? And the answer was they sure were.

SPEAKER_04 8:38

Resounding yes.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

Yeah. So along with the festival, we also did a night of mediumship with an incredible medium, evidential medium in our area. Her name's Julie Conrad, because we really want to normalize a good evidential medium that can help you in grief. And so through our approach of the Before I Die Festival in Cincinnati, we are taking what we are calling alternative death care. That is the approach we're taking. So kind of shifting away from the traditional. And we've created what we are calling the seven pillars of alternative death care. And that embodies, you know, just being in community, ecological integrity, um, transparency, uh, interdisciplinary collaboration, innovation and accessibility. And so, you know, there was grief workers there, green burial, death doulas, we did a live visual demonstration, and then we had the night of mediumship. So in our festival, we just really shifted. And because we it was so successful and people were loving it, and we had just like a diverse array of people, young and old, different backgrounds that were all there, we just really decided, okay, Cincinnati is ready and we're going to up level it. And so this October, October 30th, we are taking it to this beautiful venue in Hamilton, Ohio, called The Spooky Nook, which is kind of fun. I know, Hallows Eve. So, and then taking it up to 300 people, and we'll have keynote speakers and breakout rooms so people can really get out of the day what they want out of that.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

That's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

So cool. Yeah. So, yeah, hopefully, and one of our organizing principles, and this is how we work with clients, but even organizing a festival like this is we take the approach of mind, body, spirit, and emotion. And what happens around end of life is the body gets a lot of attention, right? Especially a body that is ill. And the mind also is privileged in that area because there's so much to figure out. And so when it comes to education, we want to ensure that we're also including in a balanced way spirit. Where does spirit fit in? And emotion, which is the more psychological grief, mental health aspect. And so we want to make sure that we're always creating a really balanced offering in that way.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Oh, that's so good. So important.

SPEAKER_04 11:35

It's so important. And also it's it's interesting that you have found uh a thirst for all these different aspects of the end of life. Because I feel like sometimes people get stuck in one compartment, right? It's like the physical stuff, what's happening? What is it, you know, what is the body doing? Yeah. And what is the mind telling us that we have like the checklists and what do we have to think about? And spirit gets kind of either you're in it or you're not. And it just seems like it's so essential to going through this journey in a very even, grounded way, but spirit gets cast out sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Yeah. And we did, I mean, both of our training was in inter interfaith or no faith. Um, but anybody, I think you found, I'm sure you found that anybody that has especially when you're approaching death, it's a kind of an opportunity more, maybe more than ever, to really think think about what is divine, what is important in that and the realm beyond this world, you know.

SPEAKER_05 12:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

So um doesn't have to be a specific religion. Um it can be the trees. Quite often it's the trees.

SPEAKER_03 12:44

And that's like what you know, Jen and I, we can work with people and meet them where they're at, and just we're very open about how spirit moves through us and helps us through those um, you know, moments. So it helps us find our people and them find us as well.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Yeah, yeah. I love that that's integral to everything you're doing. It's it's really sweet. And go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

I have to say that it's been a bit of a coming out process for me in these last five years because when you go through Doula training, there's two things. They say never tell people what you feel about what happens or where spirit takes place. And then you also they also the advice was try to appeal to everybody. And the approach that we take is very shamanic. And so that was the shyness. Like it's bad enough, people don't know what a death doula is, but what about a shamanic death doula? Right, right, right. You might as well go for it. So I was very shy uh to come out there, but I'm not, we're not so shy anymore because to really work with us and get the fullness of what our gift is together that we offer our clients. It's like at a minimum, here's what we believe. And if you don't resonate with this, we're probably not the people for you.

SPEAKER_05 14:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

And just be really willing to say, hey, we're it if this won't be a good fit. And so this very the the very basics are that as humans, we have our physical body and then something else, a soul, an essence, je ne sais quoi, right? There is that part that is the mystery, and that when we die, we believe that the spirit or the essence or the soul transcends the body dies here on this side.

SPEAKER_04 14:58

It's Haley here, really bad. So yeah, I yeah, actually, I'm gonna ask you to just keep talking amongst yourself. I'm gonna check out for just a bit and go check the house really fast, okay? Okay, yeah, we'll keep going. Keep going. Yeah, just keep going.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

All right, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 15:13

That's going crazy.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

That is kind of crazy, huh? Okay, well, yeah, thank you. This is uh that sounds so inspiring. And I'm and I'm glad that you were um referenced Gail because um we really love her work and uh we always are encouraging folks to connect with her and her work. I love the uh the movie thing that she does, you know. You get to um movies about death. It's really great. Um so one of the things we always want to think about is challenges, you know, and and you've you've spoken to this actually to some extent, um, you know, the challenge of being um shamanic in in a world that might not understand what that means or might not want to participate with that. But you you address that, you said you addressed it, and and by just being upfront, being transparent about this is who we are and this is what works and what doesn't. But what other challenges, and and of course technology, but what what other challenges have you found in working with people?

SPEAKER_03 16:08

Yeah, so I actually it's funny because we've found one of our biggest challenges is getting people to work with us sooner rather than later.

SPEAKER_05 16:17

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:18

Um you know, it's it's having the courage to dive into something that is uncomfortable. And we're finding especially because you know, a lot of people would probably think, oh, death duel is probably work with older people. Well, a majority of our clients are under the age of 40 and are struggling with end stage cancer. Um and so there seems to be a lot of, you know, there's a lot of resistance around working with us and getting to them before the end. So yeah, that sense that is our pretty big struggle and challenge that we're having right now.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

It it is because in part, you know, whatever resistance a human has when they're feeling good, you know, is hard enough. But then, you know, at the end of a cancer journey, most people are just not feeling well. You know, they've I either uh in extreme amounts of pain, you know, medications, even during a lot of treatment.

SPEAKER_05 17:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

So it's not easy to do substantive death work when you're not feeling well.

SPEAKER_05 17:34

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

And so that's what, and I've heard this on a couple of your podcasts that I've listened to. Education, education, education. I mean, it's starting this conversation when you're young, when you're feeling well, do it when you're older. And so that's why we're creating this event that is inviting and dare I say, fun. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with like spending a day of death education and having a good time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Yeah. We're all about that for sure.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

Changing the narrative, you know?

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we we were just talking about challenges on Lisa and and uh Oh, good, okay. Yeah, so that I I I really appreciate that. And and the um one of the statistics we've heard is that you know, hospice is a good example that people often only take advantage of the last two weeks of of their lives, of hospice for the last two weeks of their lives. And it's a similar thing in that that you know, there's this stigma that if you're going to hospice, you're giving up. And and yet, you know, you can have that kind of incredible care for six months or more. Um, so we really often talk about that in my classes and in in this podcast, we often talk about, you know, understand as our audience members, understand that if you're working with somebody or if you're going through it yourself, hospice is a wonderful, wonderful caregiver that you can take advantage of early on and not don't wait till it's only two weeks left. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:08

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:09

Sounds like conversations that we're constantly having right now, people.

SPEAKER_05 19:13

I'm sure. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

And just the myths, you know, if I talk about death, it creates, you know, it I'll die. You know. Um we've we're really learning, and I wonder what it's like for other death doulas, that we are having to sell hospice services. Yeah. That that resistance to, and I think it's just a lack of understanding.

SPEAKER_05 19:40

It is.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

How you know, there's limitations, of course, with hospice. And sometimes the benefit itself, like how it is expressed through Medicare, um, can be very tricky, especially for younger people who are in, you know, it in a lot of comp complex treatment kind of situations.

SPEAKER_05 20:05

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

So it's, yeah, that is a challenging aspect. But we love hospice. Yep, we do. I volunteered with hospice to learn how to be with people bedside and super helpful.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Yeah, it really is. And you talked about the the um complications around just treatments and um all the things that are going on toward the end stages. There's also the anxiety and the depression that can come up, you know. Um we are just starting to hear more about psychedelic therapies that are helping with that in some parts of the world. So, but that's really um, again, that's kind of the the point of having these conversations and and of being educated about it, because that takes that can help to alleviate some of that anxiety because you kind of know where you are.

SPEAKER_03 20:56

That's right. Yeah. My husband, um, so Nick, before starting to work with Jen, which I really think helped open him up, is he started doing ketamine therapy. And so just a quick little backstory. My husband was sick for 10 years. He had an autoimmune disease that mimicked lymphoma for like eight, seven or eight of those. And then it mutated into a full-blown cancer. And so Nick's biggest fear was always death. I mean, he knew like from a young age, he always was like, I'm gonna die young. And he just had this like ingrained knowing in him. So he was very fearful of it. And in the last few years of life, he just he needed a lot of help to get through that fear. And so he did ketamine therapy, which ultimately opened him up and really helped him to do the work that Jin, you know, was doing with him and opened him up a lot. And essentially he oh, forgame his fear of death before actually dying, which Which is beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Yeah. Yeah. So so important. Thank you for sharing that. Appreciate it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

And the I'll I'll just specify a little bit of what that work was because it doesn't need to be in the mystery, right?

SPEAKER_05 22:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

And, you know, so part of it, well, Nick was very ready to receive the work. And, you know, this is something we're still figuring out with people, right? And but I was actually able to use my drum, which creates an altered state. And the data waves. Right. And bring him in a guided meditation across the veil and into the future of what life looked like on this side of the veil after he had died. And, you know, like spirits guiding it. I'm just the pass-through. That's right. The conduit. The conduit. And so in that experience, that is the substance of the work that helped him.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Uh-huh. Beautiful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Yeah. And if you guys are open, I think it's also really helpful to talk about how he died and what was happening here. Like we need more death stories out there for people to hear. Like what is, you know, what constitutes a good dying situation.

unknown 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:31

Yeah. So a big reason I stepped in this too is, you know, he did the the work in that manner, but also didn't do the work in the manner of the practical things, like last wishes, what would he want, you know, those types of things. But I knew him at a deep like soul level to be able to guide the experience with Jin's help. And so when we got the phone call, or when we when I get the news that Nick was dying and we needed to get him home on hospice care, um I was like, all right, let's go, let's get him home. We brought him home and I have three little boys. Um she's at the that time they were seven and nine. And I came home and I sat them upstairs and I let them know that their dad was coming home and he was dying. And I wanted them to be as much of a part of the as they wanted to, or as little as they wanted to. And I gave them autonomy over their choices because I believe that kids deserve that. You know, growing up, I wasn't given that when my grandma was dying, and I would have loved to be able to be there for her. And so I gave them that choice and throughout the weekend. And then also I opened my home up to everybody in our community. We have my husband touched a lot of people's lives. Um, he was born and raised in Cincinnati and had just really amazing community and friends and people who cared for him through work, just every every single part of his life. And so I opened up the doors to my house and let people come. And a lot of people didn't have never seen active dying until those days. Um and Jen, that's when she stepped in and she, you know, helped create an altar because she knew Nick and the things that would help him. So we had a beautiful altar that the kids tended to. And then we did this gorgeous string ritual that let everybody say their goodbyes and create a community within the house if people didn't know each other. Um so, as you know, insanely sad as it was, it was so beautiful to just our house was full of love. I mean, there was food, there were kids, there was playing and laughter, there was tears, there was just everything. And that experience alone, I mean, helped so great, so greatly in our grief.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Um wow, what a great example.

SPEAKER_04 26:06

It is a great example, and that's exactly what it's for. It's to just be the foundation for the next part of your grieving cycle. It's based on this love and community and tears of light and sadness to take you to the other side when Nick is no longer on this in this realm, right? So I love that you shared it with so many people. That is so beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

Yeah, yeah. It's great.

SPEAKER_04 26:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

I think, you know, and and you know, people in our audience who are thinking about this and uh, you know, consider how how beautiful that was and how good that was. And you know, you maybe, and everybody's gonna be different. We we know as death work is that every death is different, just like every birth is different. But sharing these ideas, sharing these death stories, like you know, moms always we or moms and dads share their birth stories, you know. Yeah it's just as important.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Absolutely, yeah, just as important. And and FYI, Nick Mundi is a very, very strong part of our business. Like he is so present. He's so present. He's just like right here. Hello.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Hi, Nick.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Always, and so we share that as well, sure, as you know, part of being a shamanic death doula is under is trying to create that connection on this side of the veil before a person travels over. And and like I have no proof or evidence that like of how that happens, but intuitively it just makes sense that we try to cultivate that.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Yeah, but then it happens, you know. Like I stood up at Nick's Memorial where there were hundreds of people, and I let them know if you sense a sign or there's a sign or anything that Nick gives you, call me and tell me. And the amount of people that experience the same exact things, you know, would just call me and be like, okay, black and blue butterfly. This little girl when Nick was dying came to my house and she drew a black and blue butterfly on a little post-it card and asked if she could put it on the altar. You know, like he's dying. I don't know why she chose the black and blue butterfly, but she did. And then the day after Nick died, my one of my sons and my brother was laying on the hammock and a black and blue butterfly came and landed on his nose. And then that became the sign that everybody in our community was receiving from Nick after he died. And before that, everybody's like, I had never seen a black and blue butterfly in my life. And then here it is everywhere.

SPEAKER_04 28:41

So the awareness, yeah, the invitation to be aware of that too is present. That's beautiful. I really love that.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:49

So uh what are some of the challenges that you face with the community where you work?

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Yeah, we just talked about community cat challenges a minute ago.

SPEAKER_04 28:56

So sorry, I messed up.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Yeah, we got it.

SPEAKER_04 28:59

Uh how do you keep yourself resourced?

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Yeah, there you go. That's a good one. Don't worry.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

Well, you know, we have so much fun working together. Yeah. So I I would say for for anybody who's a death jewel out there, find a partner because it just just like you two, you have each other to do this podcast and it provides so much energy. And, you know, so resourcing for me personally means spending time with spirit, spending time journaling. Uh, we we don't like, we don't have 10-hour work days, you know. Like we were we just kind of flex and flow.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

Yeah. That's the best way to do it. But we find that our energy and when we're out in the community and the people we're meeting, it's just I don't know, it's magnetic and we're attracting the right people and creating this community, you know, just it's just wild the way it's working, like the synchronicities of the universe, bringing people, you know, in alignment with us. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:18

And I think that that actually speaks a lot too that it is your the way for you because when people ask me, aren't you always depressed and upset by what you're experiencing? Like, I get like refilled, my cup gets refilled when I'm doing this work because like you pointed out, um, we're just the conduit. We're not actually doing any heavy lifting, we're just the presence so that the divine or the mystery can can tend to our people.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Yeah, we just and it it it can get sad.

SPEAKER_05 30:47

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

And I I think when sadness and it can get it can get sad and heavy. I think like it depends on how many clients you're working with at any one given time. Sure. And so we definitely, you know, just find our private time to for me, I like to be on my couch and watch a little, you know, watch some type of little program. That's kind of a way that I'd recharge.

SPEAKER_05 31:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Just and taking care of our homes and our, you know, respect of our individual lives, like like for each of us individually, our homes are so like that is a place so sacred.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

Yeah. Come back to and feel refueled.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Yeah, yeah. We just um all right, we we're just getting started with a new um nonprofit that does uh end of life, helps with end of life planning and resources and affordability. And um we did a it was kind of a fun idea that we had it, that we'd go to a public market. And when I say we, I'm talking about another friend of mine, Jennifer. Um her name's Jennifer.

SPEAKER_04 31:56

I know Jen.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Another Jen.

SPEAKER_04 31:58

Another Jen.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Anyway, uh, so we just did this this weekend for the first time. So we opened up, we put a booth up in the public market, and we just said, come tell us your stories. And um, there was people that came and wanted to talk to us, and people that looked at it went, Oh hell no. You know, but but what what I what made me think of it was that everyone almost every one of the stories were just so profound and deep that you know we'd we they'd walk away and we'd both look at each other and just go, okay, let's breathe a little bit, you know. Let's just hold that and just you know let that settle in and just be and and open up to the the the flow and allow the flow to kind of cleanse it in a way. And not really cleanse it, but just uh, you know, in in uh what's the what's the word I want? Just take but take it in, you know, and and hold it in a peaceful and loving way.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

Um metabolize it.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Yeah, that's a good word for it, yeah. Because that just helped us be well ready for the next person to walk up. Yeah. Wow, it and it's very impactful, you know, when people are willing to share their stories. Um wow, it was it was profound. Um and not to and and to just go, well, well, thanks a lot, you know. That wouldn't have been possible. Um I appreciate you guys sharing that. Yeah, you you need to take time and finding whatever way that is. Um I like to go for a walk in the woods and hug trees.

SPEAKER_03 33:16

Yeah, that is great.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:18

Forest bathing.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, okay. That thank you for sharing those. That that's one I think that's one of my most um one of the ones I like to ask most.

SPEAKER_05 33:31

Yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Yeah. Is there um anything that frightens you about the end of life yourself? And then uh, you know, is there again, the other thing is just, you know, what else do you wish we would have asked? Um as we're kind of winding things down here.

SPEAKER_03 33:46

You know, we were talking about that question earlier, and I can say there's nothing really that frightens me. Um but watching what happened in my husband's last breath and what took place before that, and what I've experienced in his afterlife and this after process, I don't fear it. I it like kind of brings excitement to know what exists beyond here. Um yeah, so there's really not a lot of fear for me around that.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Yeah. Uh for me, I'm I think I'm more curious than I am fearful. At the same time, I want to be walking on this earth as gentle for as long as possible, you know, in a healthy enough body. And but I do sense if if if we go back to the mind, body, spirit, and emotion. I feel that spiritually I feel so supported. I'm not worried about my death. And I always say, I'm not worried about anybody who dies, period. I don't worry. I'm sad. I get worried, maybe it's not a word I like to use a lot, but you know, about the people on this side of the veil, because, you know, particularly when it's young people dying and tragic circumstances or, you know, it there that profound sadness. Sure. But I don't worry about people who die. However, I so but I do feel like my body is afraid to die. You know, my body is biologically programmed to survive to keep going last breath.

SPEAKER_05 35:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

So I'm I suspect that my body would maybe be feeling fear, even though my mind is curious, my spirit is ready, and emotionally I'm just like, woo-hoo, let's go for the ride. Yeah. It sounds familiar. It's not a simple, you know, slam dunk answer.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Um, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

How about you guys?

SPEAKER_01 36:05

What are yeah Well, I think we I that's why I said it sounds familiar. It sounds like exactly what we have said in the past. Anna Luisa often says, I can't wait.

SPEAKER_04 36:14

I can't wait. I'm actually really excited for it. I mean, my my daughter's like, you're like a passive suicidal, you know, wannabe because she's like, you're always like, oh, am I going home yet? Uh I I I think it is a mystery. I really do. And I my body, I one of my practices is to imagine me dying. And so I like meditate on leaving this body because I I just I'm really ready. Yeah, I I I think it's uh I don't, I don't, I'm not a a life supremist.

SPEAKER_05 36:45

There you go. Yeah. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 36:47

You know, I have a neighbor down the street who's the same thing. She's like the same way. She's like, I cannot wait. I think about it all the time. Like, not in a bad way. I just do.

SPEAKER_04 36:56

Yeah, no, and and part of it is, you know, it's it's been fueled by my theology, it's been fueled by, you know, shamanic journey practices, it's been fueled by uh lucid dreaming work that I've had that I've done. And meeting certain people who uh have a very clear eye of what it is that's potentially on the other side. And so, you know, I'll still grow a garden and I still raise my children and I still go for hikes, but I know there's something else that I'm I'm I'm ready to return to.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Yeah, I love that. We actually have a practice that we do in um uh well it came it came from a Buddhist practice that's um a long, like an hour-long guided meditation or longer, where we go through the whole letting go of all the different parts of who you are to the end of letting go of your body, just and it really simulating death as best you can. And then the fun part when we've done this, I haven't done this one yet, but my teacher has done it, is we go and before that we dig a grave out in the out in this person's land, like deep just deep enough that you can't see over the top, right? And then when after you've done this whole meditation, the last part of it is you go out and lay down in a grave and sleep there for the night, right?

SPEAKER_05 38:11

Um wow.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

And um, so but it's but again, it's like what Ana Luisa's talking about. You know, we can some some people are comfortable as is comfortable. Um our people are comfortable enough to really take themselves through that process, and it can be a profound experience because you know it also just emphasizes, as does any experience around death or dying, um, what's how important this moment is, each moment is and how we want to be here in this moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:45

Yeah. And I also want to just say that for those folks who do have a fear or an anxiety or trepidation about death and the unknowing, it's also okay. Like we are all on the spectrum of you know evolving into different parts of ourselves. And, you know, sometimes our faith tradition requires you to do certain things in order to get into heaven or whatnot. And there is anxiety. I've I've worked with people who are very anxious about dying, not because of the physical death, but because they don't they don't they're not sure about the other side. So, you know, but again, it's all it's all good.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

Yeah, it's all be where you are quite good. Be where you are. Yeah, and find people that'll walk with you. That's really important. I love that, Jen.

SPEAKER_03 39:31

That part. I like that.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:32

Always somebody willing to walk with you. You just gotta find them.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Yeah. Is there anything you wish we'd have asked before we call it a call it a time?

SPEAKER_03 39:45

Not really. I like I've enjoyed this conversation. I liked the I liked the questions that were asked.

SPEAKER_05 39:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Yeah, what our tagline on in our website and our belief, it is to embrace the passage. So if we were to leave on any thought, it is embrace the passage.

SPEAKER_05 40:06

Every one of them.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Right. There's so many passages in why I can embrace them. And embrace the passage of death as well. Because it is a passage for most of us, if we're dying gradually. If you die suddenly, it's a different kind of passage. But imagine if you've done your preparation work, your um, I mean the practical things, but that you've cultivated your philosophy and belief system. Yeah. You know, you are prepared, should a sudden death come your way that you have no control over. Wouldn't it be nice to have some preparation?

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

Yeah, which is a good argument for doing a relationship to the passage, which all of us have. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

One way or the other. Yeah, I love that. Good argument for doing this work and talking about it all the time, no matter where you are. All the time. Yeah. So you can always count on us for that if you need to. 100%.

SPEAKER_03 41:09

We like that. Appreciating that. Yeah, very much.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

So we will look forward to um coming and chatting with you once you get a chance to have us on your podcast.

SPEAKER_03 41:19

Thank you so much for your work.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Yeah, it's so good.

SPEAKER_03 41:22

Thank you guys for you know having the conversations. We appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to Charles Eastad, the composer of the original music you are listening to now.

SPEAKER_04 41:41

And of course, thanks to you, our audience, and all of our amazing guests. Please come back next week for another great episode. Share this with your friends, family, and community. We hope you will subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, and Twitch. And of course, if you have a good end of life story to share, please reach out. We're always eager to hear from you.