SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hey, you know, I have noticed that when I'm grieving, and I think that's probably true for everyone, words from friends or loved ones can fall short. And sometimes they just aren't appropriate or helpful. But when we're actually searching for the right thing to say or hoping to find some useful information, um, either through literature or online or whatever, um, what actually seems to help more is finding a story that we relate to, that we have lived, or that reflects where I am right now, right? So that can help us see that others have been where we have and they've survived.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

That's right. There is a continuity of many people who have experienced similar things to us, right? So in this episode, we sit down with Laura Kramer. She is a journalist and the founder of Waiting Room Publishing. And she's here to talk about why literature matters in grief and what she's doing to put it right, to put the right words in the right hands at exactly the right moment. She lost both her father and her brother to suicide. And it's wonderful that out of that loss, she created Candlelight, a print magazine designed for the waiting rooms of hospices, funeral homes, and senior living communities, spaces where people are sitting with some of the hardest moments of their lives. And I have a copy of this magazine, and I am delighted by all that I get to look at in photos, poetry, the writing. So listen up. She's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Yeah, what a wonderful way to turn that, turn that loss into something beautiful. So stay tuned. Stay tuned.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Welcome back to the End of Life Conversations Podcast. I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Hermendades, and today our guest is Laura J. Kramer. Laura is the founder of Waiting Room Publishing, an independent media company putting human-centered print magazines into healthcare, senior living, and end-of-life waiting rooms across the United States.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

How cool is that!

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Sounds pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

You guys are so nice. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Yeah. Well, I'm the I'm the Reverend Joaquil David Matthews, and we're really glad to be able to talk to Laura today. Her waiting room publishing uh does four titles. One's called The Grand Life, The Vital Years, Gigi, and Candlelight Magazine, the latter of which touches on loss, grief, navigating life after a death. And before launching WRP, Laura spent over a decade in journalism and brand strategy, and she's really focused now on physical media, the way physical media creates connection and meaning in end-of-life settings. We love that. She's list lives very close to me here in Seattle, Washington. Yeah. With her great dame cowboy. I can't wait to go. Cowboy. Have to meet Cowboy one of these days.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Oh, he's he's dying to break into this room, so he just minds.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Well, maybe we'll get to see him after all.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Yeah. So, Laura, will you tell us uh what in your life inspired you to begin this work?

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Sure. Yeah. So so as you mentioned in the in the very kind intro, um I I had worked in journalism and had been a writer for many years, um, working for newspapers and magazines, mostly in San Francisco, a little bit in Los Angeles. And um loved that work, had no interest in starting my own publication until I guess it was 2021. Both my dad and my brother died by suicide. And as you can imagine, that's um very life-altering. It was an understatement. But um, I started um I started working on our first magazine, Candlelight, just as a personal art project because I was working through my own grief and um, you know, my my thoughts were so all over the place. I I thought maybe just focusing on something that I knew how to do, which was put together a magazine, it would just, if nothing else, give me something to do. And um, so I just made I made a little zine for myself and I ended up sharing it with uh a couple of people who I was in a grief group with. And um I I guess positive is a strange word to use, but the reaction was it was very positive and and and honestly just so kind and encouraging. And people were saying that they had wished that they had had a resource like this or spaces like like those funeral homes or hospice care or palliative care. Um just wishing that they had something like this to uh kind of ground themselves. And I thought I felt like the right person to do it. And um, and that's how we started our first magazine.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Wow. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

I really love that. That's insane. That's quite nice of you. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

We had uh one of our interviews was with a person who um when her son died um was really just feeling like there's I can't find what I want in in writing in books, you know. And so she created these little grief libraries that are now all over Seattle. You may have seen them in Seattle. They're like a little library, but there's like seven or eight of them in the Seattle area. Um and we the one in Edmonds where we live, we keep post we keep stocked. But that was her whole idea, you know, is it's really hard sometimes to find what you want. So she does not only does these libraries, but she gets the books and she labels them, what kind of grief it's they're talking about and puts it all up there. It's pretty, pretty amazing work. But so you know, it just reminded me of that when you're saying, you know, yeah, it's it's uh kind of astounding really that when we're having to go through this, we can't find that support. What a wonderful, what a wonderful service you've created. And what a way, what a wonderful way to work through your own grief. Yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

That's very nice of you to say. I I'd be interested to see the project that you put together. Um, I, you know, I talk to so many people now who are so deep in grief and working through it, and I see this pattern, which I'm sure you also see, where once people go through it, go through loss, grief, they have um this this new, I don't know what it is, this new layer or this new understanding. Insight, this new insight that they want to share with others. And there's so there's so many just absolutely terrible things about death, and that is not one of them. That's something that is really encouraging every time I see it. And it is a pattern. I see it, I see it a lot where people want to take their hurt and and help people with it, which is right.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

And it's funny how you know, you don't know until you know, right? Like I just interviewed a friend of mine, her father just passed away, and I I her father has been an elder with medical issues for the last four years, and I would say, Hey, do you have this? Do you know this? And she'd be like, No, yeah, yeah, yeah. What, what, what, you know, like kind of like, I got this, I got this. And then he just passed away. And suddenly she's like, I had no idea. And she's and she said, and now everybody I talked to, I'm like, Do you have an advanced character ISO plan? Do you have insurance? Does anybody know where your insurance papers are? Like, like she is suddenly like the bow. So I'm like, uh-huh, I know. I told you.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

So it's funny because you do, I guess I should speak for myself. I thought I would understand. I'd had friends and other family members who had died before my dad died first. And I'd had very close friends um who had died. And and even, you know, suicide is a very complicated type of grief. I'd had very close friends who had died by suicide. And it's still um I I I want to be careful how I say it. It's not, it's certainly not a competition, but they're um when it uh when it rocks you, man does it rock you, and uh and you're totally right. You don't know until you know exactly.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

And you want to foster a pipeline of support for folks who are just entering into that realm, right? Because it's a shock.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

It's a shock. And I always say, like, oh it this feels terrible. I don't want anyone to know how this feels. When I find someone, I was just I just made a new friend, and her dad um also died by suicide 30 years ago. But we we had this connection and she's on the opposite side of the country. We're a couple generations apart, and the second we met, it was just um I just immediately felt like I needed to talk to her, and she she said it out loud too. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you said that because um because I feel the same way. I don't want anyone to feel this way, but if you do, it's helpful to have stories or community or something to look to different.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Yeah, and and we need to approach our support in a myriad of ways. I think our podcast sometimes feels more like a PSA. It's a public service announcement for people, which if you you know have ever watched public television, it's like you kind of zone out when they're giving you the public service announcements until you need to actually listen, you're like, oh wait, that's what I needed to hear. But you know, through your literary uh magazines, through people writing their stories through books, through, you know, all kinds of panels, I think this the more we generate pipelines of of stories and support for people, the more people will actually be able to find us quicker and we can support them in their journey.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

I agree. And and something that something that I find you two specifically do so well that to me doesn't come across PSA at all for the record. Oh good. Okay. Well, I I like the um I like the range of voices that you showcase on your podcast, and it's something that we try and do in the magazine as well. And before we were recording, I was telling you that one of my favorite episodes of yours is with um Sarah Baldwin. She was talking about the four uh grief as explained. And um and I I kept I kept wanting to like take notes while I was listening to it because it's something that I say all the time at work is that no one's grief looks the same. And so when you have a range of voices, which you can do in a catalog or in a magazine with multiple writers, I do find um I do find there's more of an ability to connect with more people because they're it's it's it's just a very different experience than sitting down and reading a book from one particular author. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:22

And they're probably shorter writing so that people they might be just too it might be overwhelming to read a book, right? It's like you just need a short story or a you know, something article so that you can just munch on it quicker.

SPEAKER_04 11:38

Right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Exactly. And and we we like hit the nail on the head, we focus on that. Um we do have those in-depth reported features where we're looking at new studies about grief and healing and and how trauma impacts your bodies. We have those in-depth features. Beautiful. Um, however, like you say, sometimes when you're deep in grief, you are not at a place where you can even begin to process that. So the next page you might see a collection of poetry, or sometimes that's too much reading, too. There are no essays. Um and it's it's um it's very interesting to hear the feedback and hear what resonates with certain people. And and you know, I might have a favorite piece, but it's not everyone's favorite, and very interesting.

SPEAKER_04 12:32

Yeah, yeah. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Sounds amazing. I want to get a an a uh a magazine subscription.

SPEAKER_04 12:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Hey, I'll send them over. And also they're um they're available to read for free online, the digital version of the phone. Oh, cool. Oh, sweet.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

I was gonna ask that. That's great.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Um the um we'll we'll post um links to the podcast with Sarah Baldwin that we're talking about, and also um the one with um Pamela Bellier, who's the one who did this um book library.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

So you can let's write the little libraries.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Yeah, so you can get an idea. And maybe, you know, once we after we're done, I can just send you information for her if you'd like that. She'd be a great interview for the for a magazine, I think. Um I would love that.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Yeah, I would love that.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

So very, very good.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

You should also listen to the one with Rachel Ray, uh, I can't remember his last name.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Rachelle.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Rachel, was it Rachel? Um, who did a zine around embalming? Oh, yeah, and that's who I met at a zine festival, and that's why we connected. But again, like they were just, you know, curious about this process and wanting to educate people because they're like, well, you get asked this question when somebody dies, and if you don't know what it is, then you just make the choice based on what they tell you is the right choice, but it's not always the right choice. So yeah, so they have a really cool little zine that they set out about embalming. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

That's interesting. I I I love stuff like that where um uh I don't need to explain this to you because it's like the premise of your podcast, but making conversations that are um perhaps uncomfortable or perhaps you want to put back burn are making it um normalized. Normalized. Yeah. Dare I say fun. I love a zine. So fun, yep.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Yeah. The folks we were just talking to in an interview before you were talking about how they do it a festival, uh Before I Die Festus Festival. And and actually another one of our guests a while back did started that process down. Dale Rubin, yeah. New Mexico, I think. And so um, but they said, and and part of this is we want to have fun. We're gonna get 300 people together to talk about death and we're gonna have a good time.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, this is why Death Cafes started out by serving cake.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

I know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

So that's that was a piece that was really important to serve a little sweet in this potentially difficult conversation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

Um, very good. Glad you're doing this work.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Um I too. I'm so excited. As usual. I love all of our guests.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

Can you can you tell us a little more about the two different magazines that you that you spoke to? Or any of them, but um like what kind of things would people find in there? What kind of um like do they do you also share resources in there, or do you um is it just basically the articles? What yeah, tell us more about what we'd find. Yeah, what we can find.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Well, you can find a number of things. Um, so under the umbrella, there are four separate magazines. Three of them are geared towards seniors, and those seniors that we're speaking to, they're very much alive. They are very much um living the best lives, having a fantastic um third act, and um and it it's honestly a little nice for me to break up my workday working on those really fun articles. And then and then moving to back to Candlelight, which is our end of life publication that feels, I guess, a a bit more serious and and you know, you just want to be very particular with the way that you handle um handle that messaging. So within Candlelight, that's the that's the print magazine that you can find at um well, you can find it online or you can find it at a funeral home or hospice care. And that's the magazine that has a whole range of of types of pieces. So those reported features, poetry selections, we have personal essays. Um one of my favorite items that we do in each um in each issue. We have a dear candlelight section. It's an advice column. Um and we work with a really wonderful uh grief and trauma therapist. Her name is Michelle Smith, and she's based out of Oklahoma. I'm blanking on the city, so she's based in Oklahoma. And readers are are free to submit their questions, and we work with Michelle to get those answered. And um that's cool. I think it's cool. I tend to I I always went to the advice section of any magazine that I was reading. And um, and this is what I like about this is that because they're readers submitted their they're very specific. They're very reasonable. Um, but I think because they're so specific and they're so real, uh, you don't uh whenever I read them at least, I feel discomforted. Like um, like I I don't feel weird for having complicated feelings around death. I don't feel like I'm you might laugh when I say this, grieving wrong, which is something that a thousand times a day that people are concerned that they're wrong. So when you have someone asking a really specific question, like, oh, my my husband's dying and I'm having intimate dreams about another man, like that is um that is not something maybe you're comfortable asking or talking about with a friend. But when you have a real therapist sort of walking you through it, it's easier to, if you're the the person writing in, it's easier to be kind to yourself. And if you're someone who sort of feels similar or can take a little bit away from it, then that's then that's fantastic too.

SPEAKER_04 18:32

Yeah, I love that. That's really great.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

It's it's really lovely too because it's it's probably anonymous, right? You can ask the question anonymously. But it's anonymously. And so, you know, I find that people are really embarrassed about a lot of things. I mean, sex questions, money questions, death questions. Like, do I really put my pants when I'm gonna die? Right. And nobody really wants to ask out loud. But if there's a really great, safe place to ask those questions and be heard and you know, informed, I think it makes people feel so much better.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Yeah, like a wonderful resource.

SPEAKER_02 19:09

We just need more speces like that so that questions can be asked.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

I I agree and I go back and forth because you know, the the internet is is so many things and it's not for wonderful things on the internet. And and when you're on, I don't know, like an ask Reddit sub thread and you're asking these questions, you don't know that the person who's responding to you. Right. They could be right and they could be um anything. Anything uh might not even be a person.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

No, yes, and also if you if you're in that moment of acute like awareness that something's happening and you're just you're really desperate for that information, and you ask the something, you get the the the response, but then then you don't actually recognize that there is a can a spectrum of what that response could be like, right? Like, what does death look like? Well, it could look like all these things, but if you got that one, well, I didn't see the death throttle, or I didn't hear it, or you know, what when did that happen? So it's kind of also not as great to have people just find that one answer. We need somebody, a human, to be like, listen, there is a whole panoplay of possibilities here that can happen.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Yes, exactly. And that's what I like so much about the specific therapist that we work with is that she is not so prescriptive in her advice. Great. I almost hesitate to call it advice because it's more just walking you through options. And I'll give an example of one of um my favorite things that she ever said. Um someone was I again, I believe the question was something around, I feel like I'm not grieving properly. And um her response is something that I squirrel away and I think about all the time. It's don't try, don't try and adjust your just just pretend that you're a detective and notice what's going on, note it and and come back. You don't need to do that today. You need to pay attention, but you don't need to change anything today.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Oh yeah. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

I do too.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

So important. One of our other interviews was with Mirabai Starr, who has a um a whole program online of um 16 thresholds that people can go can go through, and that's part of the way she handles it. She and um uh Willow together have this.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

It's okay, it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Yeah, dogs are good.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Don't don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

This is this is real life. Uh so she and Willow have done this for now quite a long time, three, four years, and they go through these 16 thresholds and they talk about these are not in order, right? And these are not specifically one thing or another, but these are things you might. you might experience while you're going through grief. And I I love the way they put that together. And they you know they do it with such compassion and love and spiritual connection and poetry and song and all that. So um but that that again just sort of emphasizes that there's so much it's such a spectrum and we you know we say over and over again everybody's everybody everybody dies differently. Everybody grieves differently it's it's all it's a very personal thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

It is and and I love hearing more often that we aren't so um stuck to those parameters the seven stages you know I I love that the messaging is changing. I think it's really important for the message to to change that we don't need to follow a path in grief just like prescription.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Just the way that you don't need to follow a prescription in in life and and I know but you know I think the reason that people like to hold on to prescriptive ideas of how-tos is that uh we don't have a manual for living we don't have great communities show demonstrating what any of these thresholds are like right and you know it's a technology it's it's a way to figure out how to get through something safely how to navigate yeah and and I think that oftentimes we we don't recognize that that's what people really need. Yeah and they might just need a prescription sleep drink lots of water you know open the door when somebody knocks to come in and take care of you.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Yeah right for the record I'm not anti any of those things I think we should all drink like so much more water than I know. I know I know when you're grieving oh my God you can drink so much water it's insane.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Because well and you know that's a really weird little thing but I I am a pro-water drinker. Like I'm always pushing water everybody did you drink water today? If somebody's in pain did you have enough water and when you're grieving literally you forget to eat right probably aren't drinking much and they're giving you coffee and sodas you need water to like really replenish that vessel and just keep yourself moist because you're making tears. So drink water.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

That's true. I mean maybe maybe the next offering we can do magazines for waiting rooms and then also like water like cute branded water so that you remember to drink your water. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Are you grieving or a grief a grief app because everybody wants a gr app right that nobody can remember to do anything on their own but they gr it's like it it'll ding you be like it's time for your water have you been crying it's time to moisturize your lips have you been have you been you know sleeping it's time to go for a walk and get some sunshine I mean that that's so true.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

There there are things that just carry like good advice is good advice. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah screen taking it yeah so what are the challenges that you find in your work which I'm like so delighted by this I'm so excited yeah you're delighted by my challenges I'm delighted by the work I'm gonna listen to your challenges but I want to say um so hey if anyone runs a small business they will probably understand exactly what I'm about to say which is that there are a lot of moving parts and we're brand new our team is super small super scrappy I end up wearing um a lot of hats that I wish fit me better some days um and I think anyone can take their their work seriously and I'm sure lots of people do. It feels um especially important for me when I'm uh publishing work about death for people who are grieving to be able to really focus on that and really take that seriously and produce something that is a useful B compelling um and and C available on time. And so um it can be tricky to balance the really boring day-to-day the grind the grind I have to get certain documents to my account and that's not my strength in life it's hard to balance um balance those things. I will say I am happier to do those administrative tasks working on a project that I really love. I've I've worked in advertising for a while and and there'll be days where I wasn't literally selling cigarettes to kids, but there will be days where you're working on something that doesn't feel as important. Yeah like oh so so I I I do enjoy um I do enjoy the creative side much more than I enjoy the administrative side. I have to do both because we're so small, we're so new and I just keep telling myself that eventually the grind is going to pay off and um and I and I can get more help. Not quite there yet but that's definitely the goal.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Well I hope we can give you a little boost because I believe in your work thank you.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Yeah anybody hears this like to do an internship maybe or yeah you know I uh I have had a couple interns.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

I have one now when the a good intern is a life savor gold I need an intern. I'll send you some names they're they're fantastic people. Yeah I I really appreciate all of the help that I get from the interns. I work with a lot of freelancers so all of the writers particularly the writers that I have coming in time and time again there's a reason I just I I appreciate them taking on something that is again like a bit difficult to talk about but doing so in a way where um they're producing something so beautiful. That's you asked about the challenges but now I'm just sort of going into what I like about it and it's being able to work with so many people who who can turn the worst thing into beautiful art. It's like composting or upcycling.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Yeah there you go very much yes yeah we well one of the one of the uh tricks we found is finding young people who um are willing to work for less money although I think more babies though yeah I keep giving our editor a raise is because he works so hard and does such a good job.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

So well I need the young people to explain social media to me. I explain like how to use Microsoft Outlook and it's it's perfect.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

Wait you seem so young like you I'm like I have full transparency. I had a 30 year old come over this weekend to help me with my computing stuff and honestly watching him work I was like because he also gets stuck but he's like you know he's brave and he just pushes buttons until it works I'm like oh and I was like oh my god I just got tutored this is great so yeah we need them to like play alongside us that's right that's exactly right I um I understand and and I'm I'm older than 30 but I I do I have met some 30 year old interns who are great I love them.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Yeah absolutely yeah yeah oh youth does um does anything frighten you about the end of life after having well you've gone through some real hard times and some tough stuff so when you think about your own life how what what comes up or or what feelings it doesn't necessarily need to be fear but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Well sometimes it is fear. So we can go with fear I I I see some of myself and the two of you and that the way that you're so eager to talk about death so openly I feel that I'm the same way about mental health um while you're alive and obviously that's because of both my dad and my brother dying by suicide and also um just without getting into it a a lot of my extended family members. So it's something that um that I take very seriously I always want to start this by saying I'm I I really don't think I'm gonna kill myself. It's something though that I know for me I have to keep an eye on that I don't I don't really find that embarrassing and I actually like talking about it just because um for example both my dad and my brother they're they were uh outstanding people they had every resource in the world they were talented they were smart they were funny they were um beautiful beautiful people and when I think about how things turned out for them I'm like well shit if it can happen to them it can really happen to anyone and that's I know it just sounds like I'm saying that because I'm related to them but I mean it they were really really special people and they didn't and they didn't make it so um Yeah I think it's important and I'm glad that you're saying that I I pride myself in having been this really open mom.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

So since my kids were little bitty we talked a lot about sex and sexuality and how to keep safe we talked about death and dying since they were babies everybody has been very comfortable with the language uh we've talked about all the pieces that have hindered my personal family of origin and others around my community and yet I think a year ago I realized that I had never really talked to my son about mental health neither one of them about mental health. And I was like wow I really like missed the opportunity because as I'm watching you know my son and not sleeping and he's in that area we've got his father has uh family members who had mental health issues I'm like what did I miss? I need to talk about it more I need to learn this now you know and really offer it up as just another facet of humanness that we do need to keep an eye on and we need to be comfortable talking about like I'm kind of sad.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

You know I'm not what's going on sure I I'm not I'm not trying to just make you feel better. I think I think what you're saying is actually pretty sweet that you miss this. To me I'm reading that like you just see this really beautiful vibrant side of your children which how beautiful is that um I I I know that when suicide happens there's a lot of grief that it that is attached and so often people saying well I didn't maybe see the signs. Some people don't see the signs and hard on themselves and and that's that can that sort of breaks my heart because I don't I don't see that as a negative that you just see how alive someone is. I think that's that's nice.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

I'm not making excuses for you I'm just saying I Oh yeah no I'm just saying that I appreciate that you're talking about it and I think that I'd like to learn how to talk about it more too. Because I I I have a learning curve right now around this this arena.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

I I won't shut up about it so I'll I'll come to Bravo it's i I'm I'm I'm gonna get off my soapbox. One last thing I just think it's so important to to figure out um what you need and sometimes that's just making it stupidly small figuring out the very first step because if you're thinking oh I need to I need to be sane tomorrow well don't don't we all um maybe that's not the first step. Maybe the first step is talking to a friend. Maybe the first step is talking to your GP um you know it looks different for everyone. Yes and I'm not giving medical advice. I know it works for me. I had to find it.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Yeah yeah but you know it's same it's very true that you said earlier that that really it's the same thing that we're doing is like the way we're gonna get through this together is we're gonna talk about it and we're gonna have these conversations. And so having a conversation about what's going on in your mental health is equally important or you know as important as anything else we've talked about here. Another one of our PSAs, right? Talk about your mental health talk about yeah find the people that you can talk to and may yeah maybe a friend and maybe your GPA maybe a psychotherapist whatever.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

It might be a journal I think it might be a way to get picking up a journal yeah oh my gosh I'm so glad you said that journal is a fantastic first step. And I will say if you do feel like you're in crisis and you need to speak to someone immediately there are many free resources that you can just reach out and call. So we do um I know you were asked about resources in the magazine earlier our whole back cover we don't run ads on the back cover we just have a list of crisis hotlines we should post those yeah let's let's do let's do because I have a big list that I can send you. What's nice about this list is that it gets so specific.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

There are there are general crisis hotlines there are hotlines for young gay men there are beautiful for indigenous people or um teens there they're just there are so many very specific groups that beautiful if you know where to press it's important great it is important and so definitely going on our resource list thank you appreciate that great um let's see where are we we're having so much fun I really love talking to people on our podcast like how do you keep how do you keep yourself resourced how what do you do when it gets really hard during the days of having to do those accounting and you're like I need a break what do you do for your break uh honestly I take a break um yeah I I never did that before in my life I thought that I wasn't allowed to or like taking a nap was failing and reboating.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

It's so stupid it's so stupid and the dumbest thing so I take a break I go I walk my dogs I um I plant something I read I have um just like a stack of books on my deck that are work related and over there I have a different stack that has nothing to do with work. Amen I have a couple going in each stack every time so um so I can do that and um yeah I if I need a break I take a break and I had to learn how to do that but life changing that and drinking water drinking water yeah it's I'm not kidding you that is the best medicine mama made it the best medicine for us.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Yeah backaches drink some water you dry it out drink some water you're sad drink start with drinking water have to do admin drink some water yeah yes perfect I I I'm gonna just throw this out there because a friend of mine broke his back in a skydiving accident and he would go to the doctor and say like my back is really messed up and the doctor would always say have you had enough water and he'd always be like no I haven't had water and so now he's also like yeah you need water your your body literally needs water for cushioning and support.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

So every aspect of our lives needs water I was such a knucklehead when I was a teenager and when I'd have to go to the doctor they would always say that you need to drink water and I was like this is such a racket like they don't do anything they just tell me drink water and um they went to medical school and I didn't so drink water I can see we need a whole new podcast it's called drinking water I know when do you when to drink water drinking water conversations that'd be so fun well okay um this has been great uh really appreciate you so much um is there anything you wish we'd have asked that you'd like to share with us before we finish I don't think so you guys do such a nice job and um I just it's it's so fun for me to get to talk about this in a way that isn't um tense and it's no I'm not no names it just you know so often when you're talking about death and people know your background or not it's just it's incredibly tense and um it's nice to just be able to talk about things that have happened and make stupid water jokes and just have a nice one. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

I I don't know if you've heard some of the episodes where I tell people that I sometimes get invited to dinner parties and I'll always talk about death and diet. I mean it just comes up naturally like somebody's pet diet or you know something and you're like oh death let's talk about it. And I never get asked back. I don't I don't have a I don't have a vibrant social community because I think they know like the death midwife is going to show up in her crazies.

SPEAKER_00 40:27

Yeah I I was just at a party last night and it happened happens like you said it happens naturally. Naturally it's just our thing you know but I actually have found more and more that people are willing to hear about this and talk about it. So I think it's still it's part of our mission, right? As as it is with Laura it's part of the mission we've taken on is to be to open up these conversations and to make sure people are thinking about them and working on them and taking care of themselves. So appreciate it very much.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

Absolutely yeah do you find that it's um people of all ages backgrounds etc who are willing to talk about it or do you find that it's certain groups or what what do you think what do you think that switches?

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Well my I'll just say my of course my most a lot of my community is elders but um and and they certainly are most and I think that's kind of a natural thing for them because they're they're looking at it there it's in their face more. But I also spend a lot of time with younger people and working with young and I find that now even a lot of those folks are are willing and open to it and I think that's really important you know so we want to we want to get this conversation started early.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Yeah and it seems like I have a 17 and a 20 year old so I spend a lot of time with teens. Teenagers are interested in and I think they're mostly interested because they have witnessed the kind of the hardship of around death and dying that their parents have to do. Like you know some some kiddos were like there was a fight when my uncle died and you know we never understood what happened and then another young lady was like there's a bunch of urns in my mom's closet and like you know why we don't have the money to go and inter them right and so so there's a lot of little conversations with young people because they're really and they know I'm safe. But I I think it's um it's it's all people and you know who wants to talk about it the most is the people who have just recently experienced a death. It's the people who who who are still so like open or or broken inside that they don't they can't talk to just anybody because people are like just get over it. Like we're like just get over get yourself together and get going and I'm happy to sit and talk and listen I will listen ad nauseum to your stories. I do and you know I I think it's it's it's I think we have you probably get to asked on you know by strangers on planes that we'll just suddenly be like oh I can talk to you and I don't know you sound like you sound like a great uh dinner party guest talking about I know I know also I think that I mean this is this is a stereotype but I think wealthy people don't like to talk about this and when I used to go to a church where I got invited into these circles with like upper middle class people it's a little it was a little stranger there. It was just like you don't bring that kind of topic to our dinner table, right? Or or we're not it's life too short to be sitting around talking about this stuff or I don't know but I feel like the less economic stability you have the more curious you might be about it or the more you've experienced it firsthand. I think that's not I don't have any kind of you know qualitative data on that. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

I'm still fun I'm just goofy I do think that that's people telling on themselves when they're when people are so anti like oh I don't I don't want to touch I'm like oh you're super interested you you want to really want to tell or you're scared or you're scared or you're deeply afraid that's scary yeah yeah yeah it's so fun the other group of people that I that I enjoy talking to are moms with kids who have um medical issues.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

I did this like I don't know it's probably been like eight years now uh but I I hosted an advanced care directive planning for mothers with kids who are about to set out to college because statistically the last year of c of high school is when most kids turn 18 and that's when they're partying and doing a bunch of crazy stuff and they get hurt and now they're 18 and their parents aren't actually uh the ones who are making medical decisions for them. Or their kids are sickly and they're going to a faraway college and they need support a paper that says these are the things that I need if I show up at the hospital. So those moms were really interested in in having me around and to ask occasionally I get a question from some of those folks but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Yeah that makes sense that's interesting. I j I just I like to find patterns and who's who's interested who I think is faking not being interested it's just yeah it's very fascinating. Yeah I think I think because my job is to try and figure out how to communicate to people I'm just always curious.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

So I appreciate you you answer well and I think you know this this is um just being being open to this conversation is the first step and that's where we're we're uh and that's how we find out that's how we find out who's willing to talk about it and who's not right yeah yeah yeah and and keeping that invitation I think that's you know like we have a I just did a booth at a farmer's market and we had the invitation there come talk to us and sometimes that's all it takes you know is just to have that invitation. So and having your magazine having this podcast we we that's our whole mission in life is to make this available to people so so grateful for you and for this chance to meet you and uh and now that I know you're in Seattle maybe we can even see each other in three dimens three dimensions at some point.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

I was funny let me know the next time you're at the farmers market it would be great to hang out and ruin a dinner party and and thank you both I really appreciate your time it was really fun talking to you.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Thank you for joining us today thank you to Charles the composer of the original music you are listening to now and of course thanks to you our audience and all of our amazing guests we come back next week for another great episode of share this with your friends, family and community. We hope you will subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky and Talk Fox at this information will be found in the podcast on top of course if you have a code end of life storage paragraph. We're always aware to hear from you.