SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome everyone to End of Life Conversations Dispatch, right? Is that what we're doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Yeah, weekly dispatch. Again.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Yeah, weekly dispatch where we contemplate just the happenings of this world and how death is constantly around us and just bringing our own light to these little pockets where grief and death are happening that are hard to for us to acknowledge. So I am your Reverend Mother, Ana Luisa Dmendadis, and my dearest co-host.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Yeah. Nice to meet you. Nice to see you all again. Um Joaquil David Matthews. And um, yeah, we just we've been talking, we're always talking, we just can't stop talking about these things.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Yeah, and just you know, thinking about, especially when people are whether they're close to the end themselves, maybe they're elderly, or maybe they're ill, or um, there's a lot of other reasons they might be less receptive to conversations. And we were talking about that the other day and one a friend of Ana Luisa's. So that might be we thought that'd be a fun subject to chat about.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Well, and it is fun for us because we like to think about tools we can offer other people when we encourage them to talk to loved ones and friends and family, neighbors about being normalizing death. And it's it's coming for us all. And I was thinking about it, there's been a couple of different situations that I've found myself in those last few weeks. And first of all, let's remind everybody about me. Like I talk about death very naturally, all the time. It comes up in just you know, conversations around town, and I'm very comfortable. And there are very few times when I elect not to discuss it. I think that once I open that portal for people, generally people want to just kind of come close and talk about what they're feeling, what they're what they experience, their fears. I think it's kind of this pastoral peace of of mind that I have. And yet I was I sat with a friend of mine last week, and this friend of mine has cancer and it has shifted, and they are currently at the end of their uh medication that's been keeping them going for a couple of years. And and they express to me, you know, what's going on, and and and it was fine. Like they were very matter-of-fact about what what's happening. And I don't, I didn't try to push like how are you feeling, or I just said, so well, you know, I'm glad that we're here today, having coffee again, talking about books. And their response was like, Yes, I'm gonna keep doing this until I'm really not able to. And then the next piece was that I started talking about a festival that I'm creating right now around Death and Dying. And they asked a lot of questions, and suddenly I s because I spoke about it as a as an educational forum for people to come with their questions, with their curiosities, with their fears to be able to discuss it. I noticed in their face a sudden, like I would call it a sadness, possibly a fear. Just like I could I sensed the shift. And in that moment, I realized like I was so excited to could keep talking about this, and it felt like that person wasn't really ready to be in that container.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

And I very easily just, you know, shifted. I ended up talking about something silly that was also gonna be part of the festival, and then we continued on. And what I would I came home thinking about it quite a bit because I realized we talk about this, everybody is at their on their own journey with death and dying. Yeah, everybody has their own lived experiences that are going to be very different from everybody else's.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

Yeah. Everyone.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

And everywhere. And so what I wanted to comment today is there will be times when this conversation it might feel closed or tough, or there's a barrier, or you see a reluctance. And I want us to find ways to both honor what that person is feeling and also learn how to language it so that we don't say something that's going to be like really make it harder for everybody. So I want I want to play with language today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

That's so important. I I think, you know, it does come up. I I think it has come up for me too, with people who are uh when I was working in a hospice who people were were close already, and um, you know, they were like, this is I know this is coming. Really don't want to talk about it right now, you know. Let's talk about something else. Uh and and so I think that's always I think part of what we can think about here and and help express perhaps is how what do we look for, what do we watch for, how do we pay attention? And this is comes back to the practice of listening, this compassionate listening and paying close attention and letting go of your own need to you know talk about yourself or to talk about what's important to you, and and really paying close attention to the person that you're with and how the person you're companioning in a in a way that you can tell, like you did, that oh yeah, this is there's a change that this is not hitting home right now. Maybe we need to think, maybe you need to think about a different direction to come from. Um, so yeah, and and then you know, and then what where do you go from there? What are the directions that you might go? Um, especially if somebody's just you know, I think you you told a great story once of somebody in the park who you said you didn't want to talk about death and dying, and you kind of pointed out that fall was happening, you know.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

And that was all there was a dead goose nearby. So I was like, that's a dead critter, like it's happening.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Yeah. Yeah. So what are your thoughts about how do you how would you direct something that if somebody just first of all, like you your friend, you know, when you you change the subject, you move to something different. Any other thoughts about which direction or how what direction?

SPEAKER_00 6:19

I guess it's gonna be depend on the person and on the moment, but it's going to be really contingent on on how comfortable you as the engager of this c topic I feel. So two things. One, are you resourced? And that means are you ready to spend some time in this moment? If you offer the the invitation to open up to whatever they're feeling, are you prepared to sit and listen? Because oftentimes I feel like somebody might you there might be a situation where somebody notices that and says, Oh, like, are you okay? And the other person sees that as or hears that as an invitation to like, no, I'm not okay. I need to like talk about this. And then the original person's like, well, I don't actually have time to hear all this. Like, I need to go, right? Which, which is very, I mean, I don't judge that because we all come to our these moments in whatever way we come to. But what I would offer people is well, here's a scenario. You're with a friend, that friend has, let's say, a terminal illness. You're, you know, you've been listening to our podcast, and you're like, I want to support my friend, I want to get them ready, and you know, I'm ready to talk about this. And you say, you know, like, do you want to talk about this? Have you prepared for death and dying process? And you'll notice one of two things. You'll notice either like leaning in, yes, I would love to talk about this because I'm very confused about XYZ and I don't know who to talk to, or the opposite, which could be, I'm not okay with this. In which case, there's no need to insist. But if you really do want to continue to offer your support, say, well, if you're ever in need of somebody to bounce some ideas or you have questions, maybe I can help you out with that.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Like always be flexible.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Yeah, exactly. And and open to like we talk about this in the class that I give about before you go planning end of life planning. People often ask, how do I even get this conversation started with family that don't really want to talk about it? You know? And I often just suggest baby steps, you know, just even something as it's sort of thinking about what kind of leads toward this conversation, but isn't necessarily deep into it, like things like, hey, that's a really beautiful painting. Have you thought about who you want to have that go to when you're gone, you know? Um, or or with things like that, just small kind of steps toward um organization, toward cleaning things up, towards um, you know, uh what what how would you like to contribute your body to the earth? You know, uh what do you think about composting or what do you think about green burial? Or just you know, and it sometimes it can be as yeah, just like any kind of like open question, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Or as silly as do you believe in ghosts? And if you're a ghost, how are you gonna come back and make sure I know that it's you?

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Yeah, that you know, we we've had experiences with that here on the we've heard podcast people on our podcast have experiences, so I don't know if that's silly or not. That might actually be a real thing. I am not judging that.

SPEAKER_03 9:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

So yeah, that kind of conversation and and fun, kind of stepping into the kind of the fun, you know, explorations like philosophical questions and and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Well, and I think that with my experience last week with my friend, I just realized that um I don't need to insist that, you know, did are you is your advanced care directive plan done? Do you have your funeral arrangements done? Do your kids have, you know, whatever. I did mention that um that that uh statistic we heard from one of our our guests was that 61% of children whose family did not have their stuff organized, siblings never ended up talking to each other again. Like there was such a rift with it, right? So I did I did mention that and they were really surprised. They're like, whoa, that's that's a high number, but yep, that's where normalizing conversations is really imperative for the health of an ongoing relationship with your kids, with the kids, actually. But I was just thinking about I I'm so matter-of-fact with death and dying and error and arenas where people aren't in that moment immediately. But I do want to be sensitive to you know, folks who are really struggling with the the imminent end, which is you know, terminal illness, or I've I've had a friend who has who was pregnant with a baby, they knew it was going to be dead within hours, if not a few days, of being born. And what is the how do we present support without being um both uncomfortable and make somebody else uncomfortable? So, you know, for me, it was just like, I just want to be like, I really love you. I just really admire you. I'm really grateful that you're in my life.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

And that's I that's all I had to say that uh that afternoon, just because it I really mean it. And at the end of the day, no matter how much Wakula and I insist that people do their work, many of you won't. And and it's okay. We still love you.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Yes, we certainly do. And, you know, like you know, that whole idea of just take your time, do as much as you can. I like to make appointments for myself to spend a little more time working on my next of kin box, you know, which has all the parts that I need to have done or my my wife needs to have done. And um, so you know, and there's still stuff that hasn't gotten finished yet, and that's okay, you know. I'm not beating myself up over it. And that's that's kind of a tendency. I I don't know, it maybe everybody else doesn't have this tendency, but to um sort of, you know, shoot all over yourself, as my teacher used to say, and think, you know, I just haven't done enough and I'm never gonna get it done, and blah, blah, blah. So work a little bit on it or not. And and when, like you said, I love that what you were talking about, your friend with a baby, that you know, sometimes the only response is just to be present and let them know they are loved and held. And that's all you can do, and that's all that needs to be done.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

And sometimes that's that's grace. That's that's beauty right there, just being being that person who can just sit there quietly and hold them, hold them whether they want to be physically held or not, but held in your love and inner light and your grace.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

I I'm also gonna share that this weekend. I was just telling Joachio before we got on that I I happened to invite someone over that I who I wasn't in relationship with, but I wanted to learn more about this person. And they also offered me um an aspect of what they're going through was they have very deep grief that they they as they pointed out, like, I can't believe I can't get over this, is what they're they're you know, how they languaged it. And and it was for you know, grieving the loss of a pet. And I just had to remind them that our culture doesn't like people mourning or grieving, even for humans, right? We get three days bereavement, and then you gotta get you gotta work. Buck up, yeah, buck up, get into the grind again. And you know, I just didn't know I didn't because I didn't know this person, I didn't all I also felt like there was a deep um embarrassment, like because the tears started coming out. And I was like, you know what, I'm good with this. Like, enjoy your tears and let's sit down and and just hold space for the love that you have for your pet. Like it's still there. There is no like brushing it under the rug right now while we sit here. So you know, you'll notice this sometimes when you're with people, and if they're people who you don't know, maybe it might be kind of strange. And yet, like if you if you have the time and the energy to put forth this invitation to, hey, like I I see that you know, it's you're still really sad about your loss. Like, let's just stand here for a little bit and you know, please go ahead, feel free to cry, and it's okay. Like, no judgment, no shame. And when you're ready, we can like move on, but I don't need to hurry up past this.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Yeah, yeah. I love that. It kind of comes back to what you said about resource, making sure that you have the time and the uh you know the energy and the uh emotional resource to to be for be there for people if that's something you're gonna dive into. And um, and I you know, I like to I I often thank people when they cry for sharing their tears, you know. Um I've had people do that here. And I I had somebody just a week ago when I was uh at a really wonderful retreat with some friends that some of them I knew, some I didn't, and one of the young or one of the men that I met that um about my age, actually a little older even, um but he we were talking and he just started weeping and I and I just thanked him and held him and uh and I started crying too, of course, because I do. And um, but I really I I sincerely appreciate tears, especially from men. Um because we're so often, you know, stigmatized with this, you know, we're too we we're men, we're supposed to be strong, we're supposed to be tough, and uh we're not allowed to have feelings, and especially about things like loss, um, or you know, little like the losses that we talk about here every day, the loss of a job, the loss of a friend, loss of a dream. A dream. Yeah. Um, and and those things absolutely affect us. And when we start really opening to them, and if we can be in a position to open space for people, if we can feel comfortable and resourced, as you said, um, to open that space for people to express in whatever way they need to express, it's it's a wonderful gift for us and and for them. So um, what a blessing that we can have that opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

I also want to be fully transparent that there have been times when I'm not ready to to like listen. I'm very tired, maybe I'm really stressed about my personal life. That um I, you know, I have had to tell people, I see you and I appreciate that you trust me. And right now, I just I feel very fragile myself and I I'm not gonna be able to hold on to this really quick. And, you know, if it's a good friend, I'm like, I think we need to find, you know, so-and-so friend to show up for us. And and that doesn't happen a ton, but I I know that those times when I'm just like I'm anxious inside because I don't have I'm I don't have anything in my container to be able to like open up myself, you know, and just listen deeply and care and look into their eyes and and love them, right? So yeah, full trait that it's not a hundred percent of the time, even though we're trained, even though Joaquin and I have like all these skills, I I find myself sometimes that I I really I don't want to or I can't, although it happens so much. Strangers all the time talk to me. So I can sit down in at an airport waiting for my flight. Yeah, and I will hear somebody's like tales and I'm like, oh.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Yeah. Well, and and discernment is one of those tools that's right, is in our toolbox, you know, is just to be able to discern whether we are in a position to be of service. And and like, you know, as you're saying, in the airport, or we did this, um, we have this nonprofit where we're offering accessibility and affordability for end-of-life care. And we have a booth that we set up at an at a farmer's market. And it's another example of when you open a space for people, um, they either will or they won't. But there's a big, much larger yearning for that opportunity than than people think. I mean, that for instance, the person who was the manager of this um farmer's market when I first expressed that I wish to do this, she said, I don't think anybody's gonna want to stop by and talk to you about loss and grief. And um at the end of the first time she came by and told us how excited she was that we had come and how sorry she was for being cynical about it. And she said this was the best thing ever. And she was bringing people by, you know. I mean, we had we have had um just that experience of having the opening the space, whether it's your your own space because of the person you are, that um you are willing and open to hearing this kind of thing, and people can just feel that about you, or you open the conversation um and the discernment to know when that's not gonna work or when it's not working. Um that that's people yearn for that, and sometimes people just don't want anything to do with it. And so you we've got to be ready for both and and be open to both. And that's part of the work.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

That's right. So hopefully if you're listening to this, you will you know, you'll know. Like it is always a an invitation to the mystery. You don't know what's gonna be, who that person in front of you is gonna be. So you know, be ready.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Yeah, listen to your body. I we always love to talk about somatics too. Listen to your body, and your body might be the first thing to tell you, oh, this isn't gonna work, you know. Or or this that sort of sixth sense that you can tell somebody's watching their body, the way they're moving, their body language, um, feeling what you're feeling, feeling what they're feeling. Those are the clues to help you discern whether um you're going the right direction or whether you need to change direction or whether you need to just graciously pull away all the different things that are possible in those times.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Yeah, it's it's uh it's incredible work. We're so, so blessed and and and honored to be able to do this work, and hopefully all of you get this opportunity as well. And we are glad to support you in any way we can.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Like us and and uh yeah, and subscribe and join the chat. We have a chat that we'd like to keep going. Email, yeah. We just we'd like to continue. Um, Substack has a chat for function that we can have an ongoing conversation. We'd love to do that more. So feel free to jump in on that and let us know how you're doing, and any way we can be of service. Much love to all of you.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Adios.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Adios.