SPEAKER_04 0:00

Welcome back, everyone. Thank you so much for listening into End of Life Conversations. And what if I were to ask you, what are you really afraid of when we say we're afraid of death? In this conversation, author Liz Scott joins us to explore one of the most universal human experiences, facing our own mortality. Drawing from her new book, You're Going to Die, but not me, Liz shares how the death of her husband, the loss of her mother, and how her own life experience with breast cancer sh reshaped her understanding of grief, fear, and what it means to live fully.

SPEAKER_05 0:43

Yeah, I loved how open she was about her fear of dying. And we get to discuss why people have this anxiety around death. It affects many of us and how grief can change our relationship with life, of course. And also what hospice can teach us about dying well and why ideas like consciousness and a word I hadn't heard before, panpsychism that will help you again.

SPEAKER_04 1:05

I know.

SPEAKER_05 1:06

To learn more about, right? Such a cool word. Think differently. It makes you know give us a way to think differently about life after loss. So again, whether you've been one of the people who's lost people somebody you've loved, maybe maybe you're wrestling with your own fear of the end of life. Um or maybe you work in hospice or end-of-life care. And maybe you simply want to live with greater intention. All of this can be um of value in this conversation. So it offers compassionate insight and doesn't avoid those really hard questions. So look forward to your joining us. So stay tuned.

SPEAKER_04 1:42

Stay tuned. See you soon. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to End of Life Conversations. I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Armandades, and today we are speaking with Liz Scott. Liz is a psychologist, writer, dog lover, and a blessed mama and grandma. Her newest book, You're Going to Die But Not Me, is an up close examination of her mortality journey from near terror to near acceptance.

SPEAKER_05 2:14

Welcome. Thank you. Yes, we do. I'm so glad to have you come and talk to us. Thank you so much. I am the Reverend Joaquil David Matthews. Liz also published a memoir, This Never Happened, which came out in 2019, followed by a mem memoir essay hybrid, Love Life Confessions of a Psychologist in 2024. She's originally from New York City and she lives in Portland, Oregon now, which is very not too far down the wall, down the I-5 from me. So it's great. Welcome. I'm so glad to have you here. Thanks for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Thank you so much for inviting me. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 2:51

Liz, so tell us more about what happened in your life that inspired you to begin this amazing work.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Pray tell. Oh my gosh. Well, I mean, the the most obvious factor is that I'm I'm so I'm so old. I'm so I'm so old. I can I can hardly believe how old I am. I I just you know, because you know how it is. I mean, my inner age is right around 16. Yeah. And my chronological age is 79, which that's a big yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:26

Um, so it is I'm gonna interrupt you really quick. Do you know what? I just had this song. Do you remember the Chicago song? Does anybody really know what time it is? Yes. We should sing. Does anybody really know what age I am? Does anybody really care?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

You're gonna get me singing now. You're gonna get me singing now. That's lovely, but I just want to acknowledge that. What what is what is age?

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Oh, I know. I know, I know. But it's it's just so, you know, of course, mortality, the the wolf is is is really scratching at the door. Um but um I I think I think this started, my my husband died in 1999. That was my first really up-close experience with death. You know, he died at home, and um um, yeah, so uh, yes, that was a very up-close experience. My mother died, then in 2004, another very up-close experience. And then in 2014, I had a breast cancer diagnosis, and so, you know, mortality smack in my face. And um, I was really scared. Really, really, really scared. I mean, that might sound like a very obvious thing to say. Um but the the sort of contours of my fear started taking shape at that point, and um I'm fine now, but uh physically, you know, that that all resolved very well. But um as the years have gone on, the that fear kept sort of revealing itself to me. And uh so I started writing about it.

SPEAKER_05 5:14

I'd love to hear more. Tell us more about how that how it revealed itself to you and what kind of lessons you've learned, what you want to what you've shared in your book, and what uh what we'll definitely, of course, link to that, but and want everybody to buy it.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

That's very kind.

SPEAKER_05 5:29

But tell us more about that.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Yeah, so I mean, I think uh I I this is different than uh that than many people that I've spoken to um might uh conceptualize their fear of death. I haven't had much fear of the dying part. You know, I think part of that was based on my experience with my husband, and we were um so fortunate to have hospice workers who, you know, are angels walking on this earth, if you ask me. Um you know, they were just, you know, blessed people. I'm so grateful for their experience. And I so my belief around the dying part is that there are enough hospice workers and enough morphine in the world that um I I'm not really afraid of the suffering, the suffering part, the pain, the suffering part of it. For me, it was this concept of annihilation. And um this is a little bit embarrassing to admit, but um when I when I explored this idea of annihilation, um this sense of like, well, how how exactly is the world gonna keep spinning without me in it? You know? How is that gonna work? And um it how is it possible for everything to keep going on when I'm not alive? And the the the sort of very humbling, embarrassing part of that is that I I come from both of my parents were sort of you could probably find their pictures in the in the DSM under the chapter of narcissism. So that has sort of narcissistic echoes for me, like why you know, I'm so special that the world can't twirl around without me in it. Um so this idea of annihilation um uh just is a very terrifying notion to me. And that's what um that propelled this journey that I started on in writing this book.

SPEAKER_05 7:38

Yeah. It's interesting and fascinating, actually. I know um when in our work, we work with people and and everybody has a different response. Um we've we in a lot of our podcasts early on, we one of our questions was what frightens you. And you know, as many times people are afraid of of uh you know what's gonna happen afterwards, they don't know. Um it's a mystery, or they do know, or they think they know, and they get we actually find that people who think they know are the most frightened because they think they haven't been good enough.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Oh right.

SPEAKER_05 8:15

And uh but but it's fascinating to think that that yeah, that would kind of define your uh excuse your define where you you know how you began this journey, how you began talking about this. Um so yeah, that's interesting. And and I think I don't know, I think all of us probably have some I I I I'll say that from my perspective, um, when I've lost somebody, there's that sense that how can the world continue to spin? Like when my mother died, I remember thinking I I actually had to come home in a hurry from a trip I was on, and and she had died while I was in flight. Oh so as I landed on the ground, and I just remember walking out into the airport going, how can this all still be here? Yes, how can people still be walking around, driving cars, flying airplanes? How can this even be when my mother's not here anymore? That doesn't make any sense, you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Totally.

SPEAKER_05 9:05

Yeah. So I I I feel it from both sides. I can understand that.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that reminds me uh this experience I had with uh the last. So my husband was in the hospital for about a month before he came home to die. And I remember looking out the window of his hospital room. People were, you know, walking down the street with their coffee and shopping bags, and it was so bizarre. Like, yeah, how does how do people they're just functioning as though everything is normal and fine? It's this very weird kind of feeling like you're in a whole different dimension.

SPEAKER_05 9:38

Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:46

Just I'm just gonna throw this out there, Liz. So yeah, I I don't feel the same as you two. And because I kind of feel like my sister died seven years ago and she's still here. So I'm like, the world continues with my sister in it, right? Like I sense her, I smell her, I, you know, there's there's times when my kids are like, doesn't it seem like Tita's here? And I'm like, Really? It sure does. So I I have this like very my my lens is a little weird, and it's like, you know, there's other dimensions. Like I'm all and you know, I meet the people who are like, they're just in this other dimension. They just can't see them. And I'm like, probably.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Well, that's very, that's very comforting. And you know, I as I I so as I was writing this book, I went down every conceivable rabbit hole around the topic of death. And actually, I was just writing another essay this morning about panpsychism. Oh, what is that? Yeah. So um when I first when I first came across panpsychism, it sounded like something that was very like, you know, maybe a maybe started in the 60s. You know, maybe was like kind of a groovy thing, but it actually used to be the prevailing theory of mind a couple of centuries ago. And um panpsychism, the theory is that everything in the universe, everything animate and inanimate, has consciousness. And I know that's kind of a hard- Here, here, here.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

No. Yeah, I'm right there, I'm right there. Yay!

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Yeah, I mean, it's it's a hard pill to swallow in a lot of ways. But if you think about like, of course, I mean, yes, I'm a dog lover, and it's easy to, my dog, it's e when you live with animals, it's easy to know they're that they have consciousness and their and personalities. That's that's fairly, and nobody would are uh hardly anybody would argue with that. Um and I was as I was exploring this panpsychism, I mean, coral have an amazing intelligence, orchids, orchids can, it's uh it's just incredible. But that's right, yeah, and trees talk to each other, and and even if you take it to the level of, you know, oceans or Mount Everest or rocks, I mean, I I know it, you know, that's a leap of faith. Yeah. But it it was such a um, it was one of the things that decreased my fear as I was exploring and writing this book. Right. The sense of we are all in this sort of cosmic web of consciousness.

unknown 12:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Right. And my right, my my bodily form might dissolve. But dissolving is different than annihilating, you know?

SPEAKER_05 12:36

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's so true.

SPEAKER_04 12:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:40

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 12:40

Go, Wakie, go, go.

SPEAKER_05 12:43

Uh well, I I just I was thinking about this yesterday. Somebody was talking about a new declaration they made, interface declaration of something and for the for the 20th, you know, for the 250th anniversary. And uh they were saying we honor all humans, you know, we honor the the right of all humans to live their lives, blah, blah, blah. And I said, Well, what about everything else? Yeah. What about everything else? Yeah, and and you know, it is a step further. Everyone else. Everyone else. Everything else. Exactly, yeah. What it what is and it is a step further to think of like the books behind us or the wall or the rock or the floor or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 13:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:19

But everything is resonating. Everything has atoms that are moving and making and changing. And um, yeah, and I so I don't and the other thing we've learned through this work is how many people have or how you know narrow our senses are. So, like you were saying, Ana Luisa, you know, you don't see them, but they definitely feel them, maybe. Yeah. Or there's some other senses that we don't even have access to. If you think about the way the insects see the world or the way animals see the world, it's so totally different and beyond our capacity even to experience, understand.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 13:53

But if we take that and expand that a little further, there's no reason to think that all of these things aren't living in some kind of conscious way. Absolutely, deserve, yeah. Deserve protection and and love and care. So that's a good piece of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:09

So I have to tell you, Liz, I I homeschooled my kids and I was out at some geological museum somewhere, sitting at the kid table playing with rocks. And it just happened to be that day, uh, one of the this young man who was a volunteer docent for the kids' museum was there. And he's he joined us. And, you know, I love rocks. My house has piles of them, right? And so, you know, he had this me sort them as a game. Like I was doing it, just I wanted to play too. But then we started on this long talk about uh, and you know, we never got into like naming what he was trying to say, but he said, you know, every single stone has its own history and it collides with others and becomes something different. And even as they're crushed, they still have form, they will reform into some other stone. And I was like, rocks reincarnate? And he's like, they kind of do. And I was like, oh my God, I love you guy, right? So um I really appreciated that as a concept from a scientific, rational, you know, mind who was like not speaking the language I speak, but certainly adjacent to it, right? As in in in all this uh story. So anyhow, I just wanted to show that because I've been on your team for a long time, sister. Yay.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

And you know, it's related to um um, well, first of all, if you if if you don't stop me, I'll talk about my dog all day. So you must you must stop me because I will. But so I I have um I work out of my home, I see clients out of my home, and my dog is in the is in the office with us. He's a little 17-pound sweetie pie. And um Sweetie Pie. He's a sweetie pie. And what what what he'll do is he'll when the client comes and sits down on the couch, he'll jump up on the couch and say hi, and then he'll go to his bed and and stay in his bed. My sessions are 45 minutes long, and uh I'm t I I swear to god, I swear to goodness, at 44 minutes, he gets out of his bed and goes over to the client. And it's like, how does he know that it's one more minute in the how does he know that? So I'm I'm saying this because of the intelligence that we that exists in the universe in ways, as you were saying, that we don't quite honor or attend to miss. Yes, exactly. And we think this very chauvinistic, you know, humans are you know the most amazing thing. Top dogs, top something. Top dogs, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And um so many other um um entities have different and and actually more refined senses of intelligence. And it's it's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 17:05

It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

It really is, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

So I I'm gonna say, so you talked about your dog, but that's this is what your challenge is like talking about your dog. So we already we already got to that question. So that's what I make it. But the other part about this too is I was, you know, I have always named my cars, my trucks. I've always had trucks. I've always named them. And I don't know why. It just started when I was younger. And then at some point in my 20s, I realized like I had I was driving and just trying to like just wrap my head around creating a car, right? Oil is being formed into my dashboard, and there's like sand that is my glass, my windshield, and then I have actual dinosaur bits in my gas tank. And you know, so as I'm driving on my road trip, I'm just like kind of the metals and the wires and the plastics, right? So, and I realize like they're all part of this earth. And since that moment, every single time, like I'm like, my my current truck is her name is Athena, and I'm just like Athena, you know, I'm sorry that you were taken from the land where you were so happy. But thank you for being my steed and taking me safely across the land, right? So, because part of it for me, it's my practice of of recognizing the animate in all things deemed inanimate. Yes. And so when we talk about death and dying, like we're these corporal sacks of dirt are animated by a spirit, but the body is not necessarily the spirit, right? So when you say that, it's like, yeah, like you're not annihilated. You're not annihilated. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

And yeah, and boy, you panpsychism, you're is, I mean, you were talking about panpsychism inside and out there. Totally. I've been there since I was in my 20s. Amazing, amazing, amazing, amazing. It was, it was definitely one of, you know, uh, one of the ways I think about writing this book is that it was a kind of a crash course in exposure therapy for me, you know, the kind of psychological methodology of increasing exposure to a fearful event or stimulus that kind of decreases your fear. And yeah, and so that was definitely one of the aspects that helped me along the way.

SPEAKER_05 19:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:20

That's wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

I'm so grateful for that for you. Thank you so much. Me too.

SPEAKER_05 19:26

I was thinking about those stones too, and how as they dissolve and become sand, we can make sandcastles.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_05 19:34

My son and I used to make sandcastles as a hobby, and we made a lot of really amazing sandcastles. And and there, you know, you've got creativity from the an entity that and and it creates this beauty and this creativity, and it's also um gonna go away as soon as the waves come out, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:51

So that's a really great metaphor for the fact that you know we are we are this body, we do have creativity, we have love. And and the other thing is gratitude, just being so uh thankful to every one of these beings around us, all of these things that are keeping us alive, that are giving us beauty and love and playing with us, showing up and playing with us. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

This isn't this is my first, this is my first tattoo. It's one of the universal symbols of gratitude.

SPEAKER_05 20:19

Oh, beautiful. Is it really?

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Is it like a spiral?

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_05 20:23

I love it.

SPEAKER_04 20:24

That's lovely. It's a good reminder. That's wonderful.

SPEAKER_05 20:28

Yeah, we all know.

SPEAKER_04 20:29

Oh my gosh, Liz, I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_05 20:32

Yeah, I really appreciate this. Uh see, so um doo doo. We talked about a lot of this already. So when when things are um kind of rough, when things like you said, you had some time where it was really difficult. Um, what have you found as a good way to resource yourself and to to um you know, give yourself what you need to keep going, to get up again.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

To get up again. Yeah, and and I don't want to overstate um the the the where I am in this journey, you know. Uh it's one of the reviews I got on my book, which I I loved so much, this woman said, after reading this book, I'm four percent less afraid of dying. And um which clinical. I love no, but I loved it so much because, you know, uh that's where I am most, maybe 10%. You know, I don't, I don't imagine I it's hard for me to let me say this, I it's hard for me to imagine getting to the place where I'm not afraid. It's it's just really hard for me to imagine. Um, but and I don't I don't kind of want to give away the um ending of the book because there is a an arc. But um as I as I explored what was kind of what was underneath the fear, there were there was stuff that was underneath the fear. Um Let me say this. I think some people have an e people have an easier time ha feeling some feelings than other feelings. You know, some feelings are easier to access than others. Fear is a is a feeling that's easier for me to access than sadness, for example. And for I mean, I I understand the sort of my um childhood roots of that. And for some people, it's you know, sadness is harder to access or whatever, anger is harder to access or for for some reason. Now I can't remember what your question was. How do you take care of yourself? How do you take how I deserve myself? Thank you, thank you. Yeah. Um so if I can um remind myself of the sort of foundational what what's underneath this all, remind myself, remind myself. If I can um sort of access the um things like awe and wonder as a physical experience, you know, not an intellectual experience, but a physical experience, and connect to the whole kind of cosmic web in a physical way. Again, the the distinction between annihilation and disillusion of this bodily form. I can feel the uh kind of ease in my body when I can do that. I can feel uh, you know, really physical, you know, slowing up my heartbeat, slower breathing, you know, uh relaxation of muscles. I can feel it in my body. So um a kind of meditations on awe and wonder and you know, connection are very calming to me and are most definitely a way of taking care of myself.

SPEAKER_05 24:04

That's so good. Yeah, so important. Yeah. We talk about remembering all the time in a couple of years. All the time.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

Remember. I have a question, and it's a curious curiosity. And if you don't feel like you want to answer this, I you know, you could just be like, pass. But did you before you started uh sitting with your fear of annihilation, did you have an idea of what was going to happen with your corporal body once you died? Okay, this is gonna sound very weird.

SPEAKER_05 24:35

No, it won't to say it. You're talking to weird folks.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

Probably not. No, no. Bring it. Try me. I had this picture in my mind of me in my body floating around all alone in a black universe. That's a horrifying, it was a horrifying picture.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

Oh, floating alone in a universe. Black universe, all black. So you're in a like a black hole and not in actually like a galaxy and stars. Oh no, I'm not seeing pretty stars. Okay, okay. So that's that's what you imagined when you were thinking about the end for you. But you were still cognizant of you being in that space. Yes. So you weren't annihilated. You weren't completely gone. You actually were like, I am still here. That's a good point. I mean, right? Like, I mean, I'm sorry that you were in a black hole when I usually came. I mean, it could be, it could get interesting. You know, I mean, I watch a lot of Star Trek, so it could go a little you could jump into a wormhole. You never know. But but I I just and I don't I I if this is inappropriate, you can just toss it up. No, no, no. Who cares? But I'll talk about anything. But recognizing that annihilation, I think about annihilation, and um, you know, we I feel like the word has always been the the scary word around nuclear annihilation. Yes. Climate annihilation, right? So it means the end of what is now.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:12

And when you speak about that as an in your corporal being, uh, and if you are a pan-psychic, you know, you kind of gotta stick around no matter what. Yeah, right. Like it's it's some form. In some form. So I wonder, like the I've never thought about this. I might spend the afternoon cogitating, but what is what can be annihilated?

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Well, that's that's the point, right? As is it this is really you, you know, as I examined this all and really held my feet to the fire on this, it's a physics problem, really. You can't destroy matter. That's right. That's right. You can't destroy matter. So um I I realize this this bag of bones and muscles and meat packet. Yeah, I I realize that it might, you know, change form, but it's go, you know, I try this matter's not gonna be destroyed. And I know that that image in the in the sort of me floating around in some black hole is, you know, a very bizarre, and it doesn't really go together with the notion of annihilation. I I get that those are sort of contradictory. Um it's just the picture that kept popping up in my head.

SPEAKER_05 27:27

Um I can kind of envision that as not not a not a thing floating around, but just this um consciousness. Consciousness, yeah, this consciousness, your soul, if you will. That whatever spark that knows makes knows that you are you, that recognizes yourself as you, still is out there recognizing there's a me somewhere, but I don't have I have no body, I have no life, I have no world, and I'm just floating around. Um, to some people that might be the best thing that ever happened. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

But you know, you're saying something now that I haven't quite thought of before, um, which is that in that picture I had, that really kind of a bizarre picture, uh I imagine that I did have an awareness that, oh my God, this is me alone in this black universe, that I did have an awareness of self. You know, and that there was a kind of uh listen that persisted. That's right. And I don't believe that there is a listen. I I don't believe that. I I believe that, you know, I I will disperse and you know, take many forms and stuff, but there's not going to be a listen that persists. So it's that's contradictory to that scary notion of oh my god, I'm floating around all by myself in this black hole. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

All right, we're adults here, we can live in paradox.

SPEAKER_04 28:55

Okay, yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

I love it. I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_04 29:00

Yes, I love paradox. Elizabeth Gilbert said that I I I love when she said that. So yes, we're adults here. We can live in paradox. Yes, exactly. I love that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 29:12

Kind of have to. Well, I mean, and I think you know that we also recognize the um that that if you are connecting to all of that, if you're believing that that's a real thing and that it's all connected, that if we dissolve into that, we maybe we manifest in some other way, some other maybe come up as, you know, there's a I think it's a um maybe Rumi that says we begin, you know, as a as a plant, or we begin as a rock, and then we become a plant, and then we come an animal, or we go back around, or we, you know, whatever way we go. And and if we are actually part of that connection that's connected to all, yeah, then at some point this human body, this awareness even, may pop up somewhere else or may not. Who knows?

SPEAKER_01 29:57

May not. It's the mystery. It's the mystery. It's a mystery. And I don't, if I think about, you know, I I I don't think there was any lizness before I was born. You know? And that doesn't feel scary. Interesting. Yeah. That doesn't feel scary.

unknown 30:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:18

You're a unique manifestation of that oneness and beautiful. In this moment.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

In this moment in this particular moment. Right.

SPEAKER_05 30:25

Yeah. Yeah. Next moment's gonna change.

SPEAKER_04 30:27

So not too soon. Of course we don't. No, not too soon. Yeah, not too soon. May it be so. May it be so, may it be so. Yeah. My kids are always like, you're not gonna die soon. And I'm like, I mean, I I don't think so, but maybe. No, I know, I know, I know. I know. I get I get that a lot from both my children, so uh but I don't I do, but I don't ever want to say absolutely not because I I don't believe that. And they also know how I'm like, I'm excited for that black hole. So are you? Yeah, I'm yeah oh a hundred percent. Really?

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Can can you tell me more about that?

SPEAKER_04 31:07

Oh, well, he's known me for so for I I start crying because I want to go home and that's where I want to be in that space. Um, but I think part of the the reason I asked you about the annihilation and the lizness is that um, and I'm not gonna get into great detail, but I had a do you know what a demascal is or a sweat lodge experience? In Mexico it's no, it's it's demascal is the sweat lodge word in it's the inipi of Mexico. And so I was there for I I studied as an herbalist with a bunch of healers, curanderas and curanderos. And uh we had to go through this uh sweat lodge, and it lots of stuff happened there. But one of the things that happened was uh I it it got out of my body essentially, and then in a moment it was like it was like it was like like the big bang second that I had this vision of almost the black hole, but I could see galaxies, I could see like I could see the big deep blackness, and I got so happy. I was just like, oh my god, I'm free. Wow, and so really I I don't, yeah, I don't, I'm not afraid of that. I'm looking forward to it. If that's a thing, I'm like, sign me up.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Wow, that's it's amazing. I did so one of the other rabbit holes I went down in this exploration was about psych with psychedelics. And I had an experience with um, you know, five Me O DMT. Yeah. That I had I had that's the experience I had on that the the galaxy trip? Uh-huh. Okay. That's the experience I had. And it was I well words kind of cheap words kind of cheapen the experience. Yeah, yeah. Of course, of course. Um But it was it's what you're saying.

SPEAKER_04 33:08

But wait a second, when you had that experience, was that the beginning of this fear of annihilation then?

SPEAKER_01 33:12

No, no, no, no, no, no. It wasn't things that just helped me because I had this sense of being like a piece of stardust almost. I was like a piece of stardust, and I could feel it was all the stardust the stardust was all around me, and it was it was such a it was the most powerful experience of awe that I've ever had in my whole life. That's right. Um and even and that was several years ago, but even now, as if I close my eyes and think about it like that. You can breathe. Yes, it's it's I yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:44

And it's the medicine, Liz. Yeah, it is exactly the medicine for you to assuage the fear of the annihilation. Because I I mean, I'm I'm a believer in the divine cosmic whatever-ness, and I don't think that the divine cosmic universe wants us to feel like that. Yeah, this is a journey of sheer joy, pleasure, pain, poop, snot, tears, because what an amazing journey it is to be in this corporal body, right? So I am so grateful. I want to thank the universe for giving you that opportunity to have it as a touchstone for when you feel fearful. Yeah. It was really beautiful. It was really beautiful.

SPEAKER_05 34:29

Well, I can't wait to read the book. Um Me too. Yeah. That's nice, you guys. I hope everybody else will do so. That's very, very nice.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 34:37

We always like to ask at the end whether there's anything we didn't ask you that you would like to share with our audience or us.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Um well, I um let me just say that um it it's a little it's a little piece of advice for the people out there. And this is more, this is a general, general piece of advice, but something that really, really helped me, which is and something I work with clients a lot around, which is the um um avoidance increases fear and anxiety. Yes. And approach is the antidote. So whatever we're afraid of, I encourage people to move toward and examine and take a look at. And um it's um, you know, I I I had to take my own advice on this writing this book, and um it was so, so, so, so helpful. So um I I just think it's just as a general principle in life. Yes. Um, you know, could I don't love the word confront because it sounds sort of aggressive, but you know, kind of um welcome your fear, invite it to the table.

SPEAKER_05 35:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Or stay put, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:52

Yeah. I love that. And and of course, there's always the wonderful help of people like yourself. Um so find if you can, find a teacher or or a counselor to help you walk through that because it can be difficult. And folks are trained um to uh to companion you through those processes. So uh so yeah, I think thank you. That's a really, really great point uh that we should all be paying attention to. Um there's a wonderful Rumi poem which says, you know, basically, welcome everything in no matter what it is, you know. I also believe that. The guest house.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

So believe that. Yeah, I think about setting a table and inviting all the guests in, you know. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 36:32

Well, thank you again so much, and we appreciate you so much for all the work you're doing and for your book and for these wonderful thoughts.

SPEAKER_04 36:40

Do we have a poem or a quote?

SPEAKER_01 36:41

I do I didn't I didn't do I didn't do anything. Well, I so I I I use the Dylan Thomas uh uh poem in my in my book, but I but I had I have annotations on it because you know the um um die uh rage against the dying of the light, but you know that hasn't worked out so well, the raging. Um so I I will not I will not you know I will not recommend the Dylan Thomas poem. But no, I didn't come up with anything else. Sorry. That's okay.

SPEAKER_04 37:13

That's okay.

SPEAKER_05 37:14

No worries. We let we it's all good. All good.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

It's all good.

SPEAKER_05 37:19

Yeah. Well, thank you again so much, and we will be in touch.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Adios blessings, adios.

SPEAKER_05 37:36

Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to Charles Heastan, the composer of the original music you are listening to now.

SPEAKER_04 37:43

And of course, thanks to you, our audience, and all of our amazing guests. Please come back next week for another great episode. Share this with your friends, family, and community. We hope you will subscribe or follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, and TikTok. Each podcast of digital information will be found in the podcast now. And of course, if you have a good end of life story to share, please reach out. We're always eager to hear from you.