SPEAKER_04 0:01

Hey everybody, welcome back. Hey, I've always wondered this, and maybe you have too, what does a mortician really do? For many of us, the word mortician brings to mind a funeral home embalming or preparing someone who has died. But the reality of modern death care has become much broader. And you know, I think a lot of some of us even like, oh, I don't want anything to do with that. Oh, I bet them. But we had a really great episode. This particular episode, we got to talk to Will Harker, a Portland, Oregon mortician whose unconventional career journey took her, took them from teaching music and sign language interpretation to becoming a funeral director, embalmer, crematory operator, and administrator of a green cemetery. They are at the forefront of a new wave we're noticing of young female funeral workers. Will shares what it's really like to work in death care, how they became a mortician, and what mortuary science training involves, and what people often misunderstand about the profession.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

That's right. So this conversation is going to move us beyond the funeral home and into some of the larger questions surrounding death and dying. These include green burials, environmental responsibility, death with dignity, dementia, and the importance of talking openly about our end-of-life wishes. Of course.

SPEAKER_04 1:21

Of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Whether you're curious about becoming a mortician, interested in funeral and death care professions, navigating your own grief and loss, or simply trying to become more comfortable talking about death, this conversation offers a grounded look at the people who help us through life's difficult transitions.

SPEAKER_04 1:40

And they are all lovely people, and that all the ones I've met are amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

I know.

SPEAKER_04 1:44

So thank you so much and enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Stay tuned. Welcome back, friends. I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Armendadis. On this episode, we enjoy a conversation with Will Harker. Will is a mortician in Portland, Oregon. And after working as a high school teacher, a jazz pianist, a drug trainer, and sign language interpreter, they went back to school for their mortuary license. Yay!

SPEAKER_04 2:16

Yeah, how cool is that?

SPEAKER_02 2:17

It's super cool.

SPEAKER_04 2:20

I'm the Reverend Joaquil David Matthews. I had the pleasure of spending time with Will at a retreat recently. And I could tell right away when we started talking that they were our kind of people and that they needed to come talk to us here. So they tell us that they're a loud spoken advocate for green burial and natural organic reduction. And they often could be found in the forest with their trusty canine companion Eleanor, hiking and enjoying the splendor of the changing seasons. I got to meet Eleanor too, by the way. Another person, another proof that she's one of us that she spends her time in the forest, right? Yes. So uh yeah, that's that's right along our line. So thank you for being here. Yes, it's great to have you.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Yeah, so excited to see you too. Yeah. Yes. So let us uh share with us what in your life inspired you after so many cool like uh jobs. Yeah, like those are all really super cool jobs. And what made you what was the impetus behind becoming a mortuary, a mortician, actually?

SPEAKER_03 3:22

So uh when I was fixing to graduate high school, I actually wanted to become a medical examiner. That that was my goal. I love science, I love anatomy, I love biology. It's all fascinating to me. That was what I wanted to do. And I looked into it and I was like, all right, you got to do four years of pre-med, you got to do four years of med, then you gotta do three years of residency and work with living people. Hold on, hold on. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I don't know about that part. And then you got to do four more years of specialty. And I was like, wow, that's 15 years. That's maybe too many for me. Yeah. Um, especially because, you know, I'm I'm one of seven kids. So I'm very much paying for school out of pocket, got to go to a state school on as many scholarships as possible. I was like, okay, no, no, no, we're gonna pick a four-year degree. That's what we're gonna do. Um, and so I got a degree in, I double majored in English literature and US history, and I taught for about a decade. Loved it. Um, and then said, you know, I need a change. So I moved to New Orleans and I worked for a little hole in the wall bar as a jazz pianist for a year. I love that. As one does.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

Um and then I said, you know what? This humidity is just too much for me. Uh and I moved to the Pacific Northwest, uh, where I worked training the uh explosive sniffing dogs for the Port of Portland for three years.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Cool.

SPEAKER_03 5:08

Um and then because I I grew up in a multilingual household, I am a child of a deaf adult. I got my sign language interpreting licensure all done, and I did a lot of event interpreting. But then the pandemic happened. And there all of a sudden were no events to interpret. And I was like, oh man, what am I gonna do? And so I was having this conversation with this dear, dear friend of mine who is just the sweetest, most soft-spoken person ever. And I was like, Oh, I just I don't know what I'm doing with my life. I'm so burnt out, I'm so frustrated. And she got up in my face and she yelled at me and she was like, You can still go back to school. You're not too old. And I was like, whoa.

SPEAKER_04 5:51

I love that. And it was probably we all need that kind of friend.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

Yeah, and it was it was exactly what I needed. I needed somebody to just shake me up and be like, no, you can still go and do something really cool, really amazing.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:07

Find out what you want to do. And I looked into it and I discovered that the only mortuary college for four states was half an hour away from where I was living. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 6:18

Yeah.

unknown 6:19

Cool.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

And I looked into it a little bit. What college was that?

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Uh Mount Hood Community College.

SPEAKER_04 6:24

Mount Hood. Okay, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03 6:25

Mm-hmm. And with the other degrees and whatnot I had, it would be about a year and I'd have the schooling done. So I was like, oh, you know what? Guess who's going back to school? Yay! I love it. Uh so I've been doing it ever since. And I I love it. I love my work.

SPEAKER_04 6:44

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, our conversations together, I just like could tell that this is like such a passion for you. And and um just not only that, but just the work and the um, you know, like you said, advocating for green burial, advocating for more women in in in mortuary services and just all the all the right stuff, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:03

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:04

I really appreciate that. Um tell us more about your work you're doing currently and and kind of what the role is and what it looks like. What are the, you know, what's what's the what's it look like? What does it look like? What does the day look like? Yeah. Yeah, what does the day look like? Or what does the the work look like? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

So I'm doing a lot of different things right now. Um in addition to the the full-time position that I hold at one of the locally owned and operated mortuaries, uh, where I funeral direct, I embalm, I operate the crematory, I do a little bit of it all. Uh in addition to that, I also administrate uh the only green cemetery within city limits. In Portland. Um in Portland. Yep. And I I mostly do paperwork almost exclusively for them. It's a lot of paperwork, a lot of record keeping. Um but I'm I'm doing that combination of things, and I'm currently also working with a group who's legislating to expand the definition of who qualifies for death with dignity.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 8:17

Which is our medical aid and dying program.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

So if you don't mind me asking, who who are you advocating for to enter into that sphere?

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:29

So right now, the way the definition reads is that you have to have a terminal diagnosis that within six months, you know, it would uh lead to your death. And we're advocating really hard for Alzheimer's and dementia patients that it not be that six-month window, that it be a longer time frame, that once they reach a certain point, that decision can be made.

SPEAKER_04 8:56

Oh, wow. That's really good. Yeah.

unknown 8:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 8:59

Yeah. That's an interesting thing to come. I've had conversations about that here in in Washington State as well. And um, and we've and also online we've talked to people about, and Canada, of course, has more liberal laws than anybody right now. But um I wonder what they how what they've run up against with that is um because I know in Washington state, the reason they can't do that is because you have to be able to administer the um the thing by yourself. The cocktail, yeah. And so what what's what's uh what's it look like in that conversation with you, with your folks?

SPEAKER_03 9:32

That's that's the issue that we're running into as well, is that they have to be able to take the cocktail themselves and willingly administer. So even if they've kind of pre-designated ahead of time, now there's this weird gray area because of the cognitive issues that occur as a result of the disease. So we're we're trying to come up with a way that works for everybody.

SPEAKER_04 9:59

Yeah. We had someone tell us about having um their their mother choose VSED or voluntarily stopping eating and drinking, um, and as part of her advanced care directive, or Alzheimer's advanced care directive. So at a certain point, you know, that's what she had asked for. Um but when they tried to do that, tried to honor her wishes, the facility they were in refused. So um, because of their own rules, right? And I think that's an important thing for us to note over and over again that if you have somebody in a facility, be sure they're gonna participate with your wishes because different religious facilities have different rules, especially if they're religious or something.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

So anyway, um, thanks for that.

SPEAKER_04 10:40

That that's really interesting. I look forward to hearing more about that and how that how that it goes how that goes in the future.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Yeah, it's it's it's coming everywhere. Like there's gonna be a lot of conversations around this topic. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, what what are your challenges around either the legislative piece or the day-to-day paper pusher piece?

SPEAKER_04 11:02

Or funeral director piece, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:07

So I run into a lot of the same challenges, interestingly, and that's the the biggest one I have is that nobody is prepared to have these conversations.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

People who are who are in the field, who who understand the implications of everything are ready to talk about it. We are chomping at the bit. We want to have these discussions. We we we really do. We understand how vital they are to ensuring that everyone is cared for the way that they want to be.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

And it's so difficult to get anybody to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

That it just I sense your frustration there, Will. Yeah, like just talk to me, please.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Right. Please, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

Um, and I I to the point, you know, I was I was at a holiday party this past holiday season, and I was talking with a group of friends, and we were melling about, and somebody from another group came over and said, Oh, hello, how are you? Who are you? What do you do for work? And I was like, Oh, hi, I'm Will, I'm a mortician. And I smiled very friendly. Yeah. And the guy looked at me and he turned around and he ran away. Walked.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

Well, I have had I I have had that happen.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

So I totally understand. Yes.

unknown 12:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

And I was like, Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

You you asked me the question, Bonnie. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I was just, I was shocked. I was like, wow, oh, okay. I didn't even like tell you a spooky story or anything. I just told you what my job was.

SPEAKER_04 12:52

Yeah, people are very differently afraid. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

Yeah. So there, yeah, people just are not ready to have these conversations. And that makes it so hard, especially because then I get them coming in to my office. Yep. They they're still not ready to have this conversation, but they don't have a choice.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

And nobody knows what it is the deceased person wanted.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

Nobody knows. Because they couldn't get them to talk about it, even at the last minute.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:29

So we're left guessing a lot of the times. And it's okay, well, you know, did they did they have any sort of a spiritual or religious practice? I don't know.

unknown 13:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

Just give give me something. Give me something to work with here.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

So we're it's it's hard because people just aren't having these conversations.

SPEAKER_04 13:58

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Do you do you notice that amongst different age groups is different or different uh demographics?

SPEAKER_03 14:06

So it's interesting. Um people who are around my age and younger seem to have less of an issue talking about it. I think largely because we're the people who are dealing with these things as they're happening. We're we're caring for our elders, we're the ones who are gonna be in charge of our grandparents and parents and aunties and uncles, etc. So we're already kind of having those conversations, even if it's not out loud, it's you know in the back of our mind where we're like, okay, we gotta figure out what they want.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 14:50

We've got to make some sort of a plan. So I've noticed that there's a little bit less resistance there. Interesting. But you know, the the demographic that I really see who's adamantly staunchly opposed to speaking about it are people who fall between, I'd say maybe 50 and 65.

SPEAKER_04 15:16

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 15:18

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:19

That's that's what a gen. Interestingly, yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

They're just like, oh no, that's kind of shocking. Well, I'm like, wait, what, people? Like, we're like the you know, we don't care about it. Well, we don't care, supposedly. Maybe that's it, yeah. Maybe that's it.

SPEAKER_04 15:37

Uh like have you found any um I'm sorry, go ahead, Ana Louisa.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

No, I was just thinking, so you know, the reason that there are demographics who have confronted this topic more so are people who are dealing with elders who are passing or right, like they're taking care of folks. So it's probably like I don't want to talk about it because it's so overwhelming to consider this this as my future. And also, I just went through it and it's harrowing and it just makes me so mad. Like I just, you know, I'm just so tired of this stuff. So, you know, I don't really not knowing like where people's like um history lies. I think it's just really interesting. I also think like younger kids have such so I have teenagers, and so they're you know, the conversations that come up here, there's so much unknown too. Like for them, they're curious, but they have no idea. They're like, nobody talks about it. I don't understand this. What does happen? And you know, so there's also like an ease of conversation and definitely a desire to understand this construct more, right?

SPEAKER_04 16:48

Yeah, that could be your your company, however.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_04 16:52

Oh I'm not sure that applies to all teenagers. I'd be interested, well, though, if you found ways that you could, you know, to clue our audience perhaps. Um, ways that have helped to get the conversation going. Um, to begin the conversation, to uh yeah, because I know it's just that's what we're about, too.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:10

We talk about this a lot, and and I'm always looking for good ideas, you know, baby steps, um, whatever. What have you found that has helped?

SPEAKER_03 17:18

Um, so I've found maybe the single most helpful thing I've found is when people ask about my line of work, and they don't immediately run away from me. Which I I can't do anything for those people. Like they're just not ready. But when people ask about my line of work and they express any amount of curiosity, the singular thing that I immediately attempt to impress upon them is it doesn't like your funeral director will not judge whatever it is you want. Their job is just to make it happen. But we have to know what it is.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:04

What whatever it is, we will do everything in our power to make it happen, but you have to tell somebody. And if you're not ready to tell somebody, write it down and put it somewhere safe. So that your loved ones find it and they know what you want.

SPEAKER_04 18:24

Yeah, yeah. Good first step in any case. Yeah. That's great. Thank you. That's a really good, a good first step, a good way to kind of get the conversation going too. And and from that, I think you kind of open up the comfort level a little bit. Maybe then they can, once they've written it down, maybe they then can have that conversation with their loved ones. Yeah. Say, well, by the way, here's where that envelope is, and let's talk about it. Yeah. So great. That's great. Thank you. That's a really good, a good idea. Um, let me look here. Where are we? Oh yeah. Um, so you've been dealing with end of life for how when did you get your license? How long ago?

SPEAKER_03 19:01

I started my apprenticeship in 2022. Um and I've been fully licensed since 23.

SPEAKER_04 19:11

Okay. So you've deal been dealing with it for a while. Um is there anything that frightens you about the end of life when you think of your own or you think of dealing with others?

SPEAKER_03 19:22

So I think the thing that frightens me the most is that even though I've pre-arranged everything, I've pre-paid, I've pre-planned, I've got copies of it everywhere, I have three different people around the city who know exactly what it is I want.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

And know where all the documents are. What happens if, because those people aren't my legal next of kin, they're not brought into the picture? Even though everything's documented, even though I've signed all the paperwork that says this is what's happening, this is who's in charge, and I've paid for it in advance.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

What if they're not brought into it?

SPEAKER_04 20:05

Yeah. Yeah. How do you ensure that? Yeah. How do you ensure that they are? Is there any way to ensure that? Tattoo, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 20:16

I mean, I've I've got everything that I possibly could do for it. I have, you know, in my wallet, there's a card that says, here's my funeral home where everything's pre-arranged. If, you know, if I die, call them. At the funeral home, they have notarized copies of all of my documentation that says, These are my people who are in charge of everything. Call them. They also have, you know, my entire file, everything's prepaid in advance. There's zero balance due.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

So the funeral home knows like this is what's going to happen. And they're friends of mine. So I trusted that they're going to do it.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

And they would get the call at that point. I think the funeral home would actually do the thing. Because it behooves them to honor this contract. And also they don't know what to do with you otherwise.

unknown 21:10

Correct.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

You know?

SPEAKER_03 21:11

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Correct.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

So, really, the only part that might be a problem is if for some reason I am not taken to that funeral home.

SPEAKER_04 21:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

What happens then?

SPEAKER_04 21:25

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's really, really important. One of the things we talk about documenting is the people you do not want to take care of you or to be a part of your end of life. You don't want them in the room, even, you know. Um so that's yeah. And that's hard because you're right. In in most c states, most jurisdictions, it's going to default to your next kin. And so if you don't have some way of interrupting that default, uh, that's that's uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

So Well, I I have I have a suggestion. So your three friends should have uh a proof of life Uh text with you every single day. And the day and when the first time that you dumped for all three of them, they had to do like a two-day kind of thing, like anybody touch base, and then no, like we gotta find her. We gotta find the body.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Where'd it go?

SPEAKER_04 22:16

Yeah, I actually did that. We we actually did that with one of our friends at one point. Just had a daily call because she was not doing well. So yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. Go ahead, Will.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

Yeah. No, it's um, I think that's my my biggest concern, death care wise. End of life-wise, I I'm so familiar with death. I work with her every day. She and I are on good terms. When it's my turn, it's my turn.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

Like, okay. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not worried about that.

SPEAKER_04 22:50

Yeah, good. Good. So yeah, that's our hope for and that's again, that's part of talking about it, right? It helps can help us uh get used to the idea and spend time with it and think about it. So thank you. That's really good. And it's good to think about for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

So So as you're moving along in your trifecta of death care for the world, um, how do you keep yourself resourced? What do you do to make sure that every day you show up in your highest uh functioning like self?

SPEAKER_04 23:22

Or when you don't, you know, how do you find your way back? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:27

There are times where you don't. And there are certain in in this industry, there are certain cases that will just absolutely wreck you for a time. Even keeping a level of professional distance, it will absolutely mess you up. Um and I'm very lucky to work with other people who understand that. Where when you handle one of those cases, you can say, I gotta take a couple of days. I I have to take care of myself. Um, so we have very strict work-life boundaries. If you're not the person on call, you don't take calls after hours.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

You just don't.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

You don't give out your personal cell phone number to anybody that you're working with. You don't like we have very strict work-life boundaries. Um, and it's an absolute blessing to work with a team who also does that because not everywhere does. Yeah. And that's why you see so much burnout in the field.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:45

And so we we do that, and then there is a level of professional distance that has to be maintained.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

You you can only get so emotionally attached to every Mimaw that comes through.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. When you have that time off, where do you go? What do you do?

SPEAKER_03 25:08

Oh, I I go out into the woods. I go out into the woods.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Number one number one answer. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

I go out into the woods, I spend time amongst the trees. When it gets real, real heavy, I find water. And I just, especially when it's a really rough case, I will go and I will yell at the water for hours and just let it take all those feelings with it.

SPEAKER_04 25:39

Uh, beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. I remember reading a story of um a Mayan village, and they said that when somebody is in mourning, uh, this is actually amongst men, it was specifically speaking about men, that if a man is in mourning, that his two of his friends or brothers or uh will grab him basically and take him to the water. And take him into the water and just hold him while he does exactly what you said. Just let it all go and the water can hold it. Where yeah. So thank you. That that's yeah, that's ancient, ancient cultural knowledge that you've just given us again. Thank you. Yeah, wonderful. Um, so thank you so much. Um, is there anything that we haven't gotten to that you wish we would have asked you about that could tell us more about oh gosh, I I could talk about this stuff all day.

SPEAKER_03 26:35

Um but is there anything specific that I wished you had asked me? Um gosh, I mean, um, so I I'm a huge advocate, very, very loud spoken about it, uh, for both green burial and for natural organic reduction, which is the uh PC way of referring to human composting.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Right.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

Um I'm I'm really trying to fight the fight to make death a little bit more eco-friendly. I I can't fix the whole system, but I can I can make an impact to get it a little bit better.

SPEAKER_04 27:16

Yeah, yeah. So good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:20

So I'm always ready to have that conversation too, and talk about, you know, the different harms that embalming and the fluids that leach into the system do, about how, you know, metal caskets just contribute to the hard water in the or hard metals in the water tables and concrete. Oh yeah, the concrete liners. Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because we we've got to keep that cemetery as level as possible so it's easy to mow.

SPEAKER_04 27:54

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. I actually talked to a cemetery uh person one time, and that's exactly what he said. He said that, you know, and he said the the way they um because when a Jewish body needs to be on the dirt, in the dirt, right? And he said, so the way they've addressed that is by creating open bunkers, basically, so that they can keep the grass, you know. He said, it's a maintenance issue. That's all there is to it, you know. We can't drive our mowers over it if it's up and down, you know. And he and he showed me the the section of the um cemetery that before they had to do all that, which is it yeah, it would be hard to mow, but hey, so what? You know, get a get a weed whacker or use your hands or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Don't grow yeah, bluegrass grass. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 28:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Put some wild, wild animals or wild trees in there. That's great. Um, are there um I know in Seattle area we have two um composting uh organizations. Are there some in Portland or in Oregon as well?

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Uh there's there's one down in Salem now, and then we also have uh currently the nation's only pet composting facilities.

SPEAKER_04 29:02

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

That's cool.

SPEAKER_04 29:03

Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Which is very cool.

SPEAKER_04 29:06

Recompose, I think it is up here, has started to started to talk about doing that as well, or maybe they've done it. They've been I've been hearing them talk about that. So yeah, that wow, what an incredibly important thing to do. And again, green burial, as I have my friend Bodhi who really got me started on this whole thing years and years ago. Um, at one point I was talking to him about composting, I know what was his choice. And he said, Well, you know, up until a couple hundred years ago, bodies just went into the ground, period. That's all you did. You put them in the ground, uh, maybe put them in a shroud or whatever. And he said, That's, you know, it comes right down to it, that's the least uh damage to the environment and the least expensive way of dealing with bodies. And and actually, you know, all of that parts of embalming, all that started with civil war stuff, and also it also is part of our capitalist system to keep us from just putting our people's bodies in our own property. They somewhere back a while ago, they said they can't do that, that's illegal, and now we have to pay somebody to do it for us. So yeah, it's it's in it's insipid, you know, the way this has just grown around us, this way of dealing with bodies as the uh death um culture, the death, you know, complex, industrial complex. And you know better as well as anybody or better than most, probably, how um impactful that can be to the environment and to our wallets and uh to the emotions of people. So yeah, so thank you for that work. That's important. Thanks for bringing that up. Yeah. Well, um, anything else, Louisa?

SPEAKER_02 30:39

No, I'm just waiting for this poem.

SPEAKER_04 30:42

Yeah. Do you have that in front of you? Do you want to read it?

SPEAKER_03 30:47

Uh yeah, I do. It's good.

SPEAKER_04 30:49

It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

It's one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_04 30:51

Yeah, yeah. So we will just let you read that poem to bring bring us to the end. Thanks so much again.

SPEAKER_03 30:58

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. All right. It's titled Sometimes a Wild God by Tom Hierons. Sometimes a wild god comes to the table. He's awkward and does not know the ways of porcelain, of fork, and mustard and silver. His voice makes vinegar from wine. When the wild god arrives at the door, you will probably fear him. He reminds you of something dark that you might have dreamt, or the secret you do not wish to be shared. He will not ring the doorbell. Instead, he scrapes with his fingers, leaving blood on the paintwork, though primroses grow in circles round his feet. You do not want to let him in. You are very busy. It is late or early, and besides, you cannot look at him straight because he makes you want to cry. Your dog barks. The wild god smiles. He holds out his hand, and the dog licks his wounds, then leads him inside. The wild god stands in your kitchen. Ivy is taking over your sideboard. Mistletoe has moved into the lampshades, and wrens have begun to sing an old song in the mouth of your kettle. I haven't much, you say, and you give him the worst of your food. He sits at the table, bleeding. He coughs up foxes. There are otters in his eyes. When your wife calls down, you close the door and tell her it's fine. You will not let her see this strange guest at your table. The wild god asks for whiskey, and you pour a glass for him, and then a glass for yourself. Three snakes are beginning to nest in your voice box. You cough. Oh, limitless space. Oh eternal mystery. Oh endless cycles of death and birth. Miracle of life. Oh the wondrous dance of it all. You cough again, expectorate the snakes and water down the whiskey, wondering how you got so old and where your passion went. The wild god reaches into a bag made of moles and nightingale skin. He pulls out a two-reeded pipe, raises an eyebrow, and all the birds begin to sing. The fox leaps into your eyes, otters rush from the darkness, the snakes pour through your body, your dog howls, and upstairs your wife both exults and weeps at once. The wild god dances with your dog, you dance with the sparrows, a white stag pulls up a stool and bellows hymns to enchantments. A pelican leaps from chair to chair. In the distance, warriors pour from their tombs. Ancient gold grows like grass in the fields. Everyone dreams the words to long-forgotten songs. The hills echo and the gray stones ring with laughter and madness and pain. In the middle of the dance, the house takes off from the ground. Clouds climb through the windows. Lightning pounds its fists on the table, and the moon leans in. The wild god points to your side. You are bleeding heavily. You have been bleeding for a long time. Probably since you were born. There is a bear in the wound. Why did you leave me to die? asks the wild god. And you say, I was busy surviving. The shops were all closed. I didn't know how. I'm sorry. Listen to them. The fox in your neck and the snakes in your arms, and the wren and the sparrow and the deer. The great unnameable beasts in your liver and your kidneys and your heart. There is a symphony of howling, a cacophony of descent. The wild god nods his head, and you wake on the floor holding a knife, a bottle, and a handful of black fur. Your dog is asleep on the table. Your wife is stirring far above. Your cheeks are wet with tears, your mouth aches from laughter or from shouting. A black bear is sitting by the fire. Sometimes a wild god comes to the table. He is awkward and does not know the ways of porcelain of fork and mustard and silver. His voice makes vinegar from wine and brings the dead to life.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

It's just so delightful.

SPEAKER_04 36:33

Yeah, yeah. I love the white stag pulls up a stool and bellows hymns to enchantments. All of it, just all of it. So, so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that with us. Yeah. And listen to them, the fox in your neck and the snakes in your arms. Beautifully, beautifully read and a beautiful poem. And thank you. And thanks for being here. I really appreciate you and the work you're doing. And good to know you and continue to know you. So we'll know you, we'll learn more from you in the future.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_04 37:17

Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to Charles Heastan, the composer of the original music you are listening to now.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

And of course, thanks to you, our audience, and all of our amazing guests. Please come back next week for another great episode. Share this with your friends, family, and community. We hope you will subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, and Substack. Each guest's additional information will be found in the podcast notes. And of course, if you have a good end of life story to share, please reach out. We're always eager to hear from you.