SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back, everybody. And this episode, we are really pleased to be meet with Chandra Lunal. She's a local attorney here in Washington State that I got to meet. She was an amazing person, really helpful. You know, it's really hard to understand all of the legal stuff that we need to understand at the end of life. It can be difficult and it can be complex and it can be different no matter, you know, depending on where you live. And Chandra was just really good. It has been really good help for me, assisting me to understand what I needed and also how to teach people about what they need and all the different things where where where it's needed, when it's needed, how how you should look at it. And so it was a great conversation.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

So fabulous conversation, yes. And so in this episode, Chandra was going to be talking about care managing of elders. It doesn't have to be a family member, but it could be a person that your family knows and trusts. And what age needs to have a power of attorney?

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Yeah. 18 and up.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

18 and up. She talked about that and how important it is to have these conversations with her kids even prior to anything happening. Health care directive agents are necessary for all ages. And she also goes in and talks about mental health at advanced care directive planning. Yeah. And the polls, which we have heard of, um, keeps you from getting additional help if 911 is called.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Yeah. Pulsed, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

Oh, the pulse, that's right. And so also another choice that you can make is how you want the disposition of your body to be handled. And all of these are people that you need to share this information with and actually write it into a document, a legal binding document. And even if it's just like two neighbors who sign the piece of paper.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:48

But Chandra goes in and talks us talks uh takes us through this whole process.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Yeah, yeah. And all the you know, differences between trusts and everything and planning for Medicare, all that stuff. All the good stuff that we need to know. So stay tuned. You'll really enjoy this episode.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Welcome, friends. I am the Reverend Joaquil David Matthews. On today's episode, we are very honored to speak with Chandra Lanao. Chandra moved to Seattle in 2010 after practicing law in Austin, Texas for over 10 years. Her first she first became interested in the estate planning and elder law field when her beloved grandmother was struck with Alzheimer's disease. Yeah, and her family struggled to care for her. We've heard these sad stories, and you have, I'm sure, too. Um, with no legal plan in place. And that interest was solidified as a student attorney at the University of Texas Elder Law Clinic. And after law school, Chandra worked for a small firm where she gained experience in a wide range of litigation and transaction transactional areas. The firm handled several difficult contested probate cases, and we know about those too. And Chandra realized that when families fight, no one wins but the lawyers. Yowzas, yes.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

What a statement.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Woof.

SPEAKER_03 3:06

And I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Armandadis. Chandra then decided to use her personal and legal experience to help clients plan ways to avoid those kind of problems that she had seen over the course of many years. Chandra has worked at a well-known elder law firm in South King County, helping clients plan for retirement and long-term care needs using a holistic approach known as life planning. Chandra also has experience helping small businesses and nonprofit organizations get started with a solid legal foundation, including corporate bylaws or operating agreements, annual corporate maintenance packages, buy-sell agreements, and nonprofit policies and applications.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Yeah, that's why I like her so much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

It's been a while since I did one of those, but yeah, that's uh Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Yeah, I was so happy to meet you and join you, have you join us today. Uh I met her uh at a uh when you were serving our community at the community center because you talked about it. Edmund's waterfront center. So yeah, and and welfare planning and Edmunds here, yeah. Um she's been a really great support and helped me as I've been getting this new profit nonprofit uh that I want to put together for helping elders with end-of-life planning or anybody with elder end of life planning, accessibility and affordability. So it's great to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

Yes. Well, we always start out with asking people how you got started in your in this career, and although we've heard a lot about it, yeah, you do and everything. But what inspired you to do this work in a little deeper essence of this?

SPEAKER_02 4:52

So um my grandmother, when I was uh uh really when I was in college, my grandmother went from being slightly forgetful to you know, that uh that loop that we all are so familiar with with anyone who has dementia where they start asking the same question, you know, about every five minutes, and you're like, oh, things are not good. Uh that probably started when I was in college, and by the time I was in my last year of uh law school, um they'd graduated to very advanced Alzheimer's. And my family ended up caring for her for really a total of about ten years with very advanced Alzheimer's. Sometimes I talk to clients and I ask, you know, how bad is the sediment or how advanced it is, and they're like, oh, it's really advanced. And then I ask a couple questions about things I can still do, and I realize you have no idea what's ahead of you. So that experience of just watching how my and my mom was like a champion at dealing with this. She really probably should have should have gone to law school, but dealing with it, uh, how to pay for things, how to get the care that you need, uh, dealing with caregivers. Um, and my grandmother was very blessed to have a large supportive family, and and particularly a sister who, you know, was willing to basically give up her whole life to stay with my grandmother. Uh, most people don't have that, right? Most people are not gonna have anything like that. So it happened to be when I was in law school and taking an about to take an elder law clinic, or that's why I took the elder law clinic and just got more interest involved in the legal aspects of it, the legal planning, which often is about figuring out how to pay for care.

unknown 6:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Because if you don't have a dedicated sister who will spend 24-7 a day for 10 years caring for you, you need a lot of funds uh to come up with to help either keep you at home, which sometimes is the hardest, most expensive option, or to make sure you're you know in a good care facility. So that's how I got into this. Uh and then as I said, I did some litigation, some probate litigation after law school, and I thought, this is so stupid. First of all, you're never gonna talk to your family members again. Sometimes they're fighting over things where like even if you have a disagreement, by the time you take into account the attorney's fees you're gonna pay, you might as well have just settled with your family. And quite often it was no planning at all, or or bad planning, or uh you thought people were gonna act right and follow your wishes, but they didn't, because and you didn't have you know that uh legally in place. So I thought, you know what? I'd much rather when I moved to Seattle, I thought I would much rather do estate planning. Help people to avoid these types of problems and not spend all their money on attorneys. I mean, not that we don't wish to be paid, but it seems like way better to spend your money putting a good plan in place and implementing it than fighting with what used to be, you know, the closest people to you.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Yeah, so much so true. Yeah, we heard this statistic a while back that over 60% of siblings never talk to each other after their parent dies. Parents die. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

And I tell my clients all the time if you go through a probate, if the siblings were cooperative and helpful the whole way through, I'm like, you should take your siblings out to dinner, buy them a present, something or other because it's it's not always pleasant and and easy.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

So true. Yeah, so true. Well, I appreciate that. And and you know, we've heard these stories a lot, and I really appreciate hearing from somebody like yourself who's really dedicated your life to this. It's so so wonderful. And uh we'd love to hear more about your your work, but uh, you also have let us know that you're down taking care of your parents right now.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Yeah, so um I'm remembering all the lessons. I'm remembering all the lessons I learned watching my my mother right uh help my grandmother. And you know, now it's it's my turn. So I both my parents um are still living. I'm very grateful for that, but they both have some dementia. Um my dad's had a couple strokes, my mom has some had said probably some early Alzheimer's, so I try to come down four or five times a year to give my sister a break, check on them, help them out. So um I unexpectedly ended up making the trip here. So that's why you get me in my not not in my office with my you know microphone design for talking to people and things like that, but in my parents' kitchen. So I love that.

SPEAKER_03 9:13

I actually feel like this is really truly what it's what we're all gonna be doing. We're gonna be a sit in the kitchens talking about stuff.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Exactly. And as I said, my dad may may or may not wander through as he woke up from his nap, but we'll we'll we'll see.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I I I love that actually. That really does make it like this is what what we'll be doing, what we should be doing, what we can be doing.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

So if you have the luxury of taking a week off from work and going to see your parents, um things is very grateful about being an elder law attorney owning your own firm, is my boss will give me the time off. Right. Uh and my clients are extremely kind and supportive if they know I have to check on my parents. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

That brings up something that I talked about with folks in my class that I do about before you go and end of life planning. Um, is that, and maybe you know, you and I can talk about this another time, maybe and see if there's some legal document, but it made sense to, as part of your trust, perhaps have a caregiver trust, something that would just help pay for somebody to come and you know, the accommodations, the travel, the time that they spent, because obviously people have to leave work sometimes. And I don't know if that's something that you've done or thought about. I I'm sure you've thought about it, but uh maybe sometime we could tell me talk more about how I could help people understand that in the class that I'm doing. But I think that's you know, it just brings up what you're talking about that people um very often don't have somebody in their lives who's willing to or able to give up their work or travel or whatever. So yeah, um yeah, so uh you know, yes, not everybody is is is fortunate.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

So one of the things I think that is is really important, and we do make sure we include it in all of our planning at you know, my uh law firm Wall Group Law, we always make sure that this is included in all of our trusts, and our powers of attorney for finances and our powers of attorney for health care, is that we do always include that the agent is entitled to compensation as well as reimbursement. Uh, I think I think that's really critical. And it's actually funny when my parents finally broke down and did their estate planning a couple years ago, kind of like just in time, uh, I had a little argument with their estate planning attorney about whether the agents who are children should should have compensation. Uh and I always say to people, you don't know how big a job this is gonna be.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

You don't know if someone's gonna do this for two weeks and then you're gone, or if they're gonna be doing this for 10 years. You don't know how much time they're gonna have to take out of their life, away from their families, away from their jobs, and what kind of economic impact that might have on them. Um as a matter of fairness, if nothing else, yeah. I do think people should be telling the compensation. And the kids will tell me, Oh, I wouldn't take ever take money for this. And I was like, that's fine, you don't have to, but keep track of your time. Right? Because later, when the estate says split three ways, and you're like, but I spent five years of my life and you were on the other coast and you didn't do anything, maybe you will decide that some compensation you know was reasonable. Um, also important to realize that if we are doing something like Medicaid planning, VA benefits planning, where we may be trying to get people to meet certain resource levels so that they're entitled to assistance. Um, if I just make a gift of money, that that's there's a penalty period for that under both Medicaid and VA benefits. But if I am paying someone compensation for services, right, that's different. Transfers for value are not penalized. So am I better off paying my kid who's doing this, you know, spending 20 hours a week with me for years at a time? Um versus making a gift and having Medicaid penalty. So the compensation I think is really important to build in. Um, I think sometimes especially in trusts, we may have additional instructions written into the trusts, like um how we want money spent. So, you know, you can include things in there like uh I want to pay for travel. If you know that some of your kids live long distance, they're they're willing to come back and spend time with you. You can write in there that their travel expenses should be covered. So there's not a question about whether or not that intended for that to be paid for. Um and then power attorney, again, the big ones, because those people don't have a trust. Everybody, if if nothing else, should have a power of attorney for healthcare and for finances so that someone can manage your money um when you're not able to.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Right. Yeah. It's so many details that we we don't often think about, and it's so good, and that that's why you want to have somebody like like Andrew in your life, you know, who can help.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

But the other thing is first response is yeah, I shouldn't be compensated. Why would you take money from your parents? And that's just it happens, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Great if you're rich, you know. Yeah, we talked to a healthcare advocate last week who said they had started doing this work in 2000 and something and they have somebody that they've been working with since 2007. So, you know, that lends itself to this uh reminder that we need to make people aware of that this can take years, and you do want to uh com accommodate that. Go ahead, Ana Luisa.

unknown 14:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:24

No, and I was just gonna say, you know, I think that if when you come from, let's just say like a middle class economics situation when you know you you there is like a little bit of pride, like, I'm not gonna need this money, I'm gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

And, you know, maybe somebody doesn't write it so that there's gonna be compensation for your time. And then you you you do the 10 years and having to like all the rig and roll of everything that you've had to do to like take care of the estate. And you've lost your job, you're also having health issues now, you know, you've got there's there's like a uh a cascade effect, right? And so we don't plan for those things, but I think that that's that's a really good like observation as you know, somebody who's we we're out here trying to advocate for this to happen for people. On the other hand, too, like I have friends who are very economically um not able to plan like this. Yeah, like there won't be extra money for anything. And you know, it's that there's also these conversations I've had with my my own, like myself and my children, because I'm like, I don't have a bucket of cash for whatever, you know. And and it's been really like interesting because economics plays such a huge role in which trajectory you will have in this at this end.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Yeah, exactly. Which is why one of the main things of our um but of our uh nonprofit is affordability and to try to support people with paying for some of this stuff, you know, if they can't afford it.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

So but yeah, I mean we we had we had that conversation because I was saying I have people come in from time to time and they don't have close family members who can serve in these roles and they don't have enough money to pay someone to do it long term. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

And that's a a real conundrum. Um so I appreciate what your nonprofit is is trying to do. I mean, kind of tongue-in-cheek advice. I'm like, well, you know, try to make really good friends with somebody 15 years younger than you, but that doesn't always work. So what are our options, you know what are our options short of that? So I'm I'm very curious to see how your nonprofit develops and what's uh I'm very um encouraged by your wanting to do this and hopeful that you're able to find some generous donors to help make that possible. And and generous volunteers, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And and that the model can be uh used elsewhere. That's part of our hope too, that we can spread the word. Because we can do this kind of in a micro local kind of you know, helping each other out way, but it's hard to do it beyond that. And but other groups could do the same thing, you know. So maybe once we've created that model, we can share it. And and I've actually in the work I've been doing, I've been hearing about people doing things like this in other places. So there it's happening. I mean, and I'm not the brilliant man who just sought up something that nobody ever thought of, you know. But uh but um but yeah, it's that's one of the hopes too, is that they can spread and more people can do this. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:18

So we had the challenges. What are your challenges that you encounter in your current role? Pray tell. Personal or professional. Well, I guess uh all the above, right? Like what how when you're normalizing conversations about end of life and preparing for it, you know, your personal is probably very prevalent in this day and age too. What you're willing to share.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

I I am. Uh I will say, um about a I guess that's about a year and a half ago, my dad had, you know, what I call his real stroke, right? He'd had a couple little minor ones before.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Um, and even though I'd been an elder law attorney, you know, specifically for about the last 12 years, uh having it happen to your own parents, you know, in real time definitely gives you a different perspective. Um learning things as the what happens as a child versus you know what you tell people as the lawyer, you know, one step remove is is really interesting. Um big challenges I think that everyone faces, both this is a little kind of crosses, both personal and professional, is um you're really helping people to make decisions while they're actually able to make those decisions. While they have the ability to really actively participate in their own planning. Um you know, we are often challenged when clients have waited a little too long and clearly the planning still really needs to be done. And often again, it is a situation where there's not enough money to pay for you ten thousand dollars a month for 10 years, right? So some financial planning needs to be done, but they're past the point where they can really understand the options. Um they've maybe become pretty dependent on the child, which means I have to, you know, kind of secondhand depend on on the child helping them uh establish their wishes. And that always makes us very cautious, but doing nothing is not a better is not a good option either. Yeah. Um so I think that's you know, my my that is one of my biggest challenges working with people who have um passed a little bit past the point where they can really evaluate the options and really where it's really their plan and making sure it's their plan what they they would want to do. So I encourage everyone to plan while you can.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Challenges. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Challenges, one of the challenges is tech technology. Simplify, I was saying tech challenges, yeah. Simplifying things enough that people can understand their options. Uh, and and uh a woman came by the house earlier from my uh visiting my sister, and she talked about her dad having died um and feeling very overwhelmed by all the options and what should they do next. And it was a good reminder for me, because of course, as an attorney, we do this all the time. It feels relatively simple to us, but it all the options, what you need to do can feel very overwhelming, whether it's a parent getting ill, having to take over for them, whether it's doing your own estate planning, whether it's probate. Um, so just trying to keep things so that people are not don't have that analysis paralysis when they need to be to be making decisions. That and hiring good staff, that is um that is always a challenge. Hiring really good people who can um do this work. And this work can be challenging, right? We're dealing with a lot of our clients because they are older, they um can present some special challenges uh in in dealing with with them. Uh I was talking to a client's son the other day, and he was trying to tell me about his how his mom had these dementia issues, and he's like, Do you do even know things? Do you even know this? And I was like, it takes me like five minutes to pick up on that, but thanks. Um and even if I don't pick up on it right often, my staff is the one saying, you know what, they've called three times to ask what time their appointment is, so maybe pay a little more attention to something's maybe going on. Um so you know, you you do need staff that have all the regular office skills and law office skills, and then also the sensitivity, right, to and patience to deal with clients who can be present some additional challenges.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Um one of the questions we like to ask is how do you resource yourself when it's all too much? Because we love to we love all the answers to that because we all need the help, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Yeah. So uh and again, this answer may depend on your financial resources, right? Set that's always always um relevant. So finding, I think if you have the resources for it, finding a a um we used to call them geriatric care managers. Sometimes I call them life care professionals now. Yeah. They specialize in these types of issues, both from maybe hiring caregivers to evaluating what your needs are, um, finding those resources for you. So it's more than just a housing placement, right? A lot of times people will work with these people who are going to help you figure out what assisted living to go to. The care manager is more than that, right? They may help you find that place to live, but then they're also help arrange maybe additional caregivers coming in, you know, when you're in the facility or coming to the house. Um so if you can afford it, I think that is a really good place to start, even if you just use them at the beginning to help you set up a plan. Um, I think they can also be really helpful if you are trying to manage things for a parent who is long distance. Right. You don't have family nearby, you can't convince them to move closer to you, you can't move closer to them. Um you can have the the care manager can check in on them, right? Even if you're at a facility, you you want somebody checking on people fairly regularly to make sure they're getting the care that they deserve. So that care manager can be that person that steps in for you. Or if you have someone living at home, you may have a difference of opinion with whether or not it's still safe for them to live at home. I think that can be an option.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Um, you want to check your local resources. This can vary a bit by county um in terms of what programs are available. Um so if you're in a more rural county, you you may have fewer options. King County tends to have, you know, kind of the the most expensive care, but also the most most options. So you may want to look at your area council on aging, um, see what's available there. Your local senior center will often have um from kind of resources you might need fairly early in in the planning, like uh help with tax prep. Uh here you can come here for a lunch every day, um, and and lower cost or support uh price lunches and community. Yeah, meditation classes, get get out there.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

Art classes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Yeah, yeah. And I if you were a veteran, um if you're a wartime veteran, we're at the age uh or they are at the age now where a lot of the Vietnam War vets are starting to need a fair amount of help. Yeah, yeah. Um wartime veterans. So anybody who served um at least 90 days active duty, at least one day during a declared war period, anything other than a dishonorable discharge. Um, both those people and their widows have some entitlement to to benefits. It's a widow's pension or spec uh survivors pension or special pension. Um, we call it aid in attendance. That's just kind of what everybody calls it. That's not technically the name, but that is additional money every month that's available. Um so I think it's important that people know that that is out there because a lot of times they come to us and they've been struggling to pay things for years.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Yeah, it turns out that's there, yeah. It's about reservoirs.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

Veterans service organizations can help you kind of get started with that. Yeah. Um and for financial assistance, you know, Medicaid remains probably the big one for for most people. Uh, and there I do recommend that people work with um an attorney before they do things like give money away because their hairdresser's cousin did something rather that worked or didn't work. Um, we hear a lot of advice from people who don't quite know what their, you know, little knowledge is a dangerous thing. It's so true. Yeah. Um, so I think that that uh that's helpful. Um there's a Washington Elder Law Association, you can get names of attorneys from there, or there's a National Um Nayla National Association of Elder Law attorneys, so you can get names there, referrals there. They also have some resources that are um uh more public-facing um that can help in terms of where do I start on the legal side. Yeah, we have to do that. But the main thing is just do something. Don't be frozen by indecision and fear and I don't know what to do. You don't have to do the perfect thing first.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Yeah, just do something. Just do something. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

Like one step and then another.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

We have the uh end of life Washington site here in Washington State that has a lot, ton of really good resources. Also, that speaking of veterans, um, I was telling you that yeah, um, we've been setting up a market uh at public market, we've been setting up a little grief booth. Um, next door to us yesterday when we did that was the VFW, the Veterans of Foreign Wars. And they specifically had a sign there if you're having trouble with your claim, come talk to us, we can help. And so they have people that are specifically there to help people find their way through these claims. And I was listening in on some of the stories people were talking about, and it sounds like it can be I know it can be really difficult. The veterans um administration uh is not the easiest to work with, as it turns out. Yeah, yeah. So it can really help to have yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

So I'm trying to say how well how much will I say? Um I don't ever recommend anyone try to do their VA claim by themselves. I do recommend you always get assistance. Um and go online, just uh the everyone who's licensed basically uh to help you with the VA claims um is can be easily found online. Um veteran service organizations at the FW can do it. Um I do think if you have a more complicated case, typically because you still have some assets, particularly if you still own your house, um, I think you should talk to an attorney or other specialist because they're there are ways you can get qualified and still retain more of your resources if you um do that kind of planning. The VFW type planners can't tell tell you about that because they're not attorneys. So they can't do the other work that you would need to do. Um but just knowing that it's out there is a lot of times clients don't know this exists or they hear about it because they saw one of our brochures. The VA is not um they're not working overtime to make sure that all the Vietnam vets know that, hey, you could get like $2,600 a month tax-free to help pay for your care. Did you know that? Imagine that. Yeah. And the application process, every once in a while I think to myself, is this purposely designed to make sure these people die before their claim gets approved? Is that possible? Not to be cynical, but it has crossed my mind. So yeah, I definitely recommend getting help with that. And I said not just the veterans, but there's also a benefit for their widows, right? It's a smaller benefit, but there's a benefit for widows as well. And that is separate from VA disability, right? So VA disability, different benefit. You can kind of get one or the other, whichever is higher. The way it works out, if you were a wartime veteran specifically, it is often easier to get more money through the aid in attendance than what you would get through the disability. So interesting. Something to at least unless you're unless you're like 95. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

There you go. Yeah. Very good, very good. Well, uh, let's see, we're pretty well gone. Is there anything you wish we would have asked you that we didn't get to? My goodness, probably a million things.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

But I think again, just uh for your audience out there, like as I said, just remember to plan while you can. Yeah, don't assume you're gonna have forever to do that. Um, at least take some of those initial steps. Um, start thinking about it. Uh start thinking about, especially if you are older, if you're starting to see some signs that you're declining, your independence is not always gonna be there. It's a good time to really evaluate the options so that your kids aren't having to do it after flying in for a weekend because they're about to release you from the skilled nursing facility after your health crisis. And they just have to get you someplace fast, right? Because you're gonna be released and it's not safe to go back home. So you can really look out for yourself by visiting some of these opportunities, thinking through some of these things through while you're still healthy. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Yeah, and check in on our podcast. We got a lot of good information. We have a lot of wonderful people like Chandra that shared lots of good information. And uh thank you, everybody. I appreciate you. Thank you so much, Chandra, for thank you for having us. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to Charles Heastan, the composer of the original music you are listening to now.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

And of course, thanks to you, our audience, and all of our amazing guests. Please come back next week for another great episode or share this with your friends, family, and community. We hope you will subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, and Twitter. Each guest additional information will be found in the podcast. And of course, if you have a good end of life story to share, please reach out. We're always eager to hear from you.