SPEAKER_03 0:01

Hello everyone and welcome back to End of Life Conversations in our weekly dispatch. I'm Sam Lee Zemke. Uh I don't have I don't have a clever one for you today. Um I'm just here. I'm the kid that's late for the bus. That's who I am. Um here with uh Reverend Mother Anna Lisa Armentores and Reverend Joaquil David Matthews. And today we decided that we wanted to talk about sort of a little esoteric, non-literal grief and death about the emotional processes like grief and loss and friction that happens when we realize that we're wrong about stuff. It happens when we go, oh no. Oh no. And the hit to the ego, you know, it approaches things like ego death, and shame. And shame, guilt, a lot of things that we go through in others like realms when we face grief and loss, loss and and death of things. Um so Ana Luisa, you you had some good launching off points for this. So why don't you take it away?

SPEAKER_01 1:32

I mean, it's it's it's a very strange. So, dear listener, it is very odd. Stay with us, ride this magic carpet ride. It is not easy to articulate because the language around this is new to me right now. But I just had an experience this weekend where my daughter and I were talking. My daughter's very um an advocate for disabled people straight across the board. We talk about all kinds of disabilities in this household. And for most of you probably know, like my sister had spina bifida, and so I have I've been steeped in disabled world for all my life, but now it's it's changing with my daughter. And it's um, so we were having, I'm not gonna go into details of what we're talking about because that's too many little trigger points here, but but what I recognized in the moment, I've often said, like, it's my truth and not everybody else's truth, and I can and I can stand by that. But then there was this moment when I was like, what I perceive to be my truth or a truth is actually not right. And and as a mother, as somebody who has never raised kids and is raising children, you know, I there have and my kids will acknowledge this. Mom, you have always said, I don't know, I don't understand, I did it wrong. And, you know, my big thing with them is like someday when you show up in the therapist's uh couch and you talk about this moment, send me the bill because I will pay for it. So I acknowledge that I am imperfect, fallible, and whatever. But but when it comes to like thinking that I know something so deeply and so certain, and that and that little just like very small tweak in my web, it's like, oh yeah, no, that's actually very wrong. I I processed it as a little bit of grief. And like um Sam was saying, like it's a little kind of it did give me a little shame. It did make me go back in my in my historical mind and try to check in like, have I like really pushed this on people before? And you know, what have I if I caused harm? And you know, but I I realize like it's a small death. It's a small death in me that I would like to bear witness to and have you witness as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

So Joaquil, yeah, have you been there before? Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. I've raised two families and I there's so many, I couldn't even tell you how many things I messed up there. Um I especially I think, especially the first time because I was so young and naive and I really knew not a had not a clue what I was getting into. So um, yeah, a lot of mistakes. And I and and it wasn't just you know, it's mistakes because I didn't know what I was doing, but there was also, yeah, this feeling like, okay, I can do this, I know what I'm doing. I I I have compassion and love and presence, and that's enough. And that's not enough in in some cases, you know. Um, so yeah, those those definitely come up. But again, uh this more like the things that you really are sure about, your certainness is the way things are. And then then to be able to hear, that's a that's a skill, to be able to hear um an an opposite or a different way of thinking about it, and to be able to take it in and go, well, yeah, I guess so. I guess that's not who I am, you know. Or it's not that's not real. That's that's a challenge, it can be very challenging, sure. Yeah. And how do you think that's it?

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Well, you know, and it's it's not something that is easy for any of us as human beings, I think. And and especially in our culture that doesn't really exercise discourse and argument and you know, we don't and change. We don't, we're not practiced in that in those skills. But what I what I realize is um, and maybe it's me being older, right? Like I'm an older woman and now I've like had a ton of experiences and I have been like, it's not right, you know. And now I'm like, well, it's not right for me. Like that's you know, that's the level of it. But to understand that um language can make it very difficult to have people understand where you're coming from, but that language is also coming from your own paradigm. And when your paradigm is like, wow, that's actually not okay. Like, wow. Like, I don't know. I I think that we, you know, I wonder if people just will like they do that, but they don't say anything because then they have to admit that they were wrong. They're like, oh, that's probably true, but I'm not gonna say anything. I'm gonna just keep marching on, you know. But but the other thing is to like be like, whoa, that's actually not a true statement anymore for me. And either by verbally acknowledging it or literally for me, it was like, I have changed, I am different, and there's a part of me that is that is gone.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Yeah, yeah. Wow, big that could be a big thing. Yeah. So we have a really good representation here. We have an elder elder. We have an elder millennial.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Up and coming elder. Gen Xer.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

Yeah. And we have our wonderful Sam who's represents a lot of other parts of the culture that we're in. So yeah, what what do you think? When have you had experiences like this, Sam? What's it look like for you?

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Uh yeah. I uh I was just writing about one uh last night for school, and um the primary feeling that I was remembering around it was relief. It was it was because what what happened was in in this particular situation that I was writing about, um was one, it was sort of like a confirmation of what I wished was true. That I think changes things. But also but also the part of me that was shaken off or cracked open that had hard feelings and judgments and and all of these preconceived notions about how things should be. And when that cracked open, I got to let go of all of that. And it allowed me to soften into a new, more expanded place of like, oh, okay, the the possibilities of what are true are way bigger than what I had previously um thought. And so it just like this expansive, relaxing.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Um, that's no, that's just actually so beautiful because truly when you figure out like something isn't in alignment with any part of you, and you can open that up, and you know, sometimes you chuck it, sometimes you just kind of ease it out of the way. But there is expansion and it's your soul expansion, it's your and you know, your heart expansion. There's so many pieces that by recognizing that that is that is gone and needs to be composted, and now what's gonna come into its place, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you can approach it with curiosity and and wonder, you know. Wow, this is good, some this could be something entirely different. And you spoke earlier too about um, I think this cultural feeling of abandonment right now. Like that we have we've we've lost one of the things we've lost is this feeling that that we that we can have trust in our government, that we can have trust in our police force, that we can have trust in those in power. And uh our eyes. Or yeah, or what we see, what we hear. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

And and that's we yeah, yeah, we can't anymore. There's an and and that's really difficult because and you know, the whole thing has evolved to the place where there we don't know what's real anymore. I mean, I don't know what's real anymore. Um even though we I do my best to figure it out and uh take, you know, learn a lot of things and do my research, which which is fraught right there because the research is already, you know. So yeah, and that just that's a huge loss of uh certainty of understanding, of knowing and uh and being. But then again, it does also give me attempt, like you said, to just kind of open up and say, well, what else, what else could be real?

SPEAKER_01 9:59

What's the possibilities here? Yeah. You know, and I'm gonna I'm gonna bring it into our death and dying, you know, circle here because we have and this is what we're trying to do. We're trying to normalize a language around death and dying so that people can feel comfortable and plan or talk to their loved ones who would like to know things. But I was thinking about the moment I I it and this happens. I mean, I've been in hospice situations where people suddenly are like, I need to tell you the thing.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

You know, like release all the, you know, the stuff that I need to get off my chest. Or, oh shit, I did it wrong. Can you help me really fast and do the thing? Which sometimes most of the time it's like, well, it's a little too late for that. Um, but you know, those those moments are happening to people. And I I think that my prayer would be that it would happen, that expansiveness would occur a little earlier in our process of ending in this at the end of our lives, because it does give us peace. It does open up the possibilities for conversations, for support from community, for acknowledgement of like the bravery, you know, that you you have in showing up as a very different human than you were like when you're like, no, I'm not talking about this. This is ridiculous. You know, like it's hard, folks. It's hard to be to to admit that you're wrong. And this is we and it happens probably more often than we want to recognize.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

Yeah, yeah. Those those something that uh when when you were also talking about the the cultural aspect is we're not we're not like you said, we're not trained to be open about being wrong, about like wow, this feels weird. Like, oh man. There is this expectation of certainty and and sort of a uh uh demonization of doubt or like being wrong, empathy, or of changing, yeah. Like, like uh I mean that's reflected in so many aspects of our culture right now, like kind of the worst parts, I'd say, uh personally that of like you're supposed to become who you are by a certain threshold, yeah, and then not change. Yeah, and that is a sign of like strength, yeah, right something. And so that creates this other complex, this larger complex around around being wrong. And like you were saying, Anna Luisa, like maybe don't say it. Maybe you can just you just like agonize over it internally. And and also as you're saying, it's it's this little death. It's this it's this transformation moment, which we know is when we need ritual to mark those times, and oftentimes those rituals, whether they're little, you know, it doesn't have to be a big thing, but just to acknowledge like, oh my gosh, this is a transformant transformation moment. The who I was before is no longer here. That part of me doesn't exist anymore or is dying. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes that needs community witness.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Yeah, that's where the conversation, that's why we practice these conversations. That's why we encourage people to practice these conversations because you're right. It's something that uh everybody, you know, somebody was just saying yesterday we should have as part of our maybe all school, at least high school curriculum, how do how does one listen with um you know, with compassion? How do you compassionately listen? And do you have a plan for the end of your life? Yeah, if somebody's gonna be 18, they should have an advanced care directive and that should be taught. You know, that's part of that conversation, just learning how to have these conversations. And I think that would also do so much to end the divisiveness that we have right now. If you could actually listen to people and hear them and hear what their their heart's about, uh it makes it much more difficult to other other ize them or demonize them. And if we could all if that was part of our you know, required reading or required learning.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

It seems like it could make a huge difference.

unknown 14:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

It could make a huge difference. Yeah, and just going back to this, like, it's, you know, ritualizing when you when you change, ritualizing those small deaths, right? Of personal ego deaths. Uh, I was also reading uh a review about a documentary of this gentleman who's filming uh Octogenarians. And so he's always looking for the the oldest person on the in uh in the world. And you know, here he is. And the photo on that they put was I think her name was Mavis. I mean, I could be wrong, Maud Mavis. But you know, she's at her 116th birthday. There are throngs of family around her. There's a huge ass cake, and she's like asleep, you know, and and so I I love reading the comments, right? And so the comments are like, why are we forcing Mavis to like go to a freaking birthday?

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Like she looks like she's not tired.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

She's tired, let her just like chill, right? And and somebody was like, Why do we um make such a big deal about birthdays when there's so many other things that we can give our attention to and celebrate? And they listed some things and I can't remember, but I was like, that is so true because you know, we do make this like huge inner kerfuffle about birthdays. And I think, and I don't know for sure, but they come from having lost so many babies, right? And earlier in the days, like when a kid got to you one, yay, and when it got to five, oh my God, it's still here, like whatever. Like, let's make a birthday, right? So I think that that started this way, and now we're trying to like mimic that ritual, that ceremony for people who are in their later years when is that necessary as cake? Really that interesting, you know, like balloons?

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Yeah, who's that really for?

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Who is that really for? Right. But couldn't we take moments when we recognize like I have just shifted into a different paradigm than who I was yesterday? And I would like to have a celebration about this and you know, tell my loved ones like what I've you know said for 20 years is no longer true. I deeply apologize if I've created harm. And I would like to encourage you to tell speak more into my life right now because I I want to learn more about what it this piece that I didn't know about before, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Uh and wouldn't that be a great, I mean, I'd have cake for that party.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

And maybe you need the cake to like soften some of those billows and you want sweetness with those, with those like almost like um, I want to say enfantari bleu, like those little bad moments, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Like you need a little cake to make it through.

SPEAKER_03 16:59

Especially when you're standing in the fire going, you know, oh my gosh. Yeah, oops. Here's this thing that I totally thought was true and totally and I I recognize that they may that may have caused harm in the world. It's like such a hard like we're you know, circling back, like what a hard thing to to acknowledge and and sit with. And and when I was talking about uh my own like, oh, the relief about about letting go of this part, that you know, it's not all rosy. It there is that like wow, there are some spaces where I was a real jerk about this stuff when I had this preconceived notion. And that but now, I mean, now I've shifted and I get to change that and I get to walk through within a software.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Yeah, what a great example you give by doing that too, by inviting people to witness that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Right. And you know, I mean, again, as Hazra Inya Khan says, it's like everyone to their own evolution. Like we only knew what we knew at that moment because that's the experiences that brought us to that one singular moment.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

But as we but we don't have to hold on to the that being, and as we traverse time and land, like things might shift, and you're like, oh, that is not me.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

That is not me. Yeah. And what a wonderful thing too, also is you know, as we're talking to the audience, did we just really have a moment, take a take a moment, like uh end of each day? I have a practice where I just look with the day and I think, you know, what went well, what didn't go so well, how would I have done things differently? And then, you know, hallelujah for everything else. And uh and and so just we I would encourage the audience, just take a moment in your lives and think about those things. What are what are things that you're really holding as true for sure? And are they true for sure? And really, you know, take the time to do some self-examination and some reflection and uh understand discernment around, well, maybe I should rethink that one.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Right. Or or can can two truths be in this space, right? Can my truth also be aligned alongside somebody else's very distinct truth? And can they both coexist?

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Because I feel like we're just so like stalwart in our in our language and around who we are and how this should be right and whatever, whatever. And it's it's it's hard. It's very hard for all of us to be like constantly bludgeoned by other people's truths.

SPEAKER_03 19:26

Yeah. Yeah. One of the interesting uh that reminds me of an interesting conversation I had with my dad over the summer that really rubbed up against some like hard places in me. About he was talking about how in in seeking to feel compassion for other people's truths that maybe feel very, very uh contradictory to what you hold, is trying to understand that everybody ultimately is seeking the most good according to their perspective. Even like the person that you have the least compassion for in the world is ultimately trying to trying to increase the amount of good according to what they think good is. And according to their story, yeah. According to their story. Yeah. And you don't have to agree with the story, whatever, whatever. But to understand that, and I was like, man, that's that's hard, especially when trying to put that into practice. Yeah. Like, can you interact with somebody on that level? And I think about, you know, like Yeah. Yeah, I don't even know. There's so many places. There's so many.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

I mean, immediately I actually was like, can I interact with that person? No, no. Oh, wow. Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah. Like, oh, I would have a hard time of that too.

SPEAKER_03 21:01

Yeah. But it it it also opens the door to that self-compassion. Yeah. And and in that, you know, in that reflective place of like, oh yeah, that's what I that's the the construction, the perspective I was operating under at that time. Can I see where I was trying to find the most good with that perspective and support that in the world, even though I was wrong? And now I have a different idea, and can I can I try to increase the good from here and understand the go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

And even with that, too, it was like um one of the pieces for this weekend with my conversations with my daughter was um, and I didn't actually say this aloud because I'm like, I have to still like process what I'm going on, but how much of what I actually believe to be true about my Myself was infiltrated by the world at large, the culture, the media, um, my masking to fit in and not be pushed out of of you know groups. There's so many parts to this. Um and yet, you know, there's some things that will ultimately be wrong, you know, for me. And I'm like, yeah, uh, I need to revisit this very deeply.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

And I love what you said about being kind to yourself, Sam, you know, you're forgiving. Um, I remember early on in my Sufi path, I was talking to my my uh initiator, and um, and I said, What is this bismillah rachman Irahim? What is that about? You know, and um this in the you'll find that in almost every verse of the Quran at the beginning, and and it's you know, mercy and compassion. And he said, and he told me something that really stuck, and it's he said, This it begins with yourself.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

It begins with you.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

You have to have mercy and compassion for yourself first, because by and that's exactly what Sam you talk about, you know, that's where it starts. And and again, you know, we were yesterday we were talking about in this roller coaster that we're on, how hard it is to um to stay in in the center and stay grounded and and keep going doing your work, and that all you can do is take each step with trust and faith and asking for intentioning, setting the intention of doing your best and serving as best you can, and then forgiving yourself when you haven't done it, when you don't feel like you've done enough, or forgiving yourself when you said, Oh, I messed that up, you know. So there's uh the Sufi word estaffer la, which I always think is uh it should be like uh oops, I forgot. I forgot that everything is divine and that everybody is doing their best and that I'm doing my best.

SPEAKER_02 23:57

And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

So yeah, I think that's really an important piece of this. So do our best. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

That's a really good way to put that. Yeah. More than because I think good can also be a loaded grip, back to what I was talking about, like when binaries and whatever. But like, but really to, you know, it's just another way of saying everybody's doing the best that they can with what they've got.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:24

And to have compassion for that.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yeah. And that's hardest when it's something that's causing so much harm to people we love, you know. And that's where I find it the hardest to actually set aside my judgments and and and not feel very, very angry. And but again, that anger is real, that's real and that's important too, you know, and to notice that and say, okay, what am I gonna do about that? Um, that's where the action comes. We were talking about it, was the herbs of Nura Nisa and Ayak Khan yesterday, that which is uh the death day of Nuranisa and Ayakan. She was a she was Nayak Khan's um daughter who in World War II was a spy and behind the lines in the in the French and was murdered by the Nazis uh when she was found out. And she was, you know, she was a person who was a pacifist and didn't believe in war, and but she saw this great evil happening and she made the decision to step in with courage and and more than I could do. I don't know how somebody would that be be dropped behind enemy lines and work for the resistance to the to until she was uh betrayed and was murdered, you know. And even toward even to the very end where she was um being tortured by the Nazis and um you know, to tell every to try to give away things. And she by that time nothing she knew would have been any use to the Nazis anyway, but she still refused. She said, No, I'm not telling you anything until the very last words they say was liberté, freedom. Um so you know, examples like that are you know, like we can maybe live our lives a little differently, thinking that people actually lived, people actually stepped into that depth of um of pain and suffering and sorrow because they recognize there's something that is going on that I need to do something about. So it's not I I think that's what's important about that is it's not um when you f see something that's wrong or you see something you've done wrong, it's not just about being compassionate and saying I'm sorry and blah, blah, blah. It's also about taking that great that courageous step into fixing things. Not really fixing, but addressing them with whatever you can address them with, yeah. Whatever your capacity is and being kind to yourself.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Well, what do you think, guys? We done this one to death.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

No, never. No, I I I just this is really I mean, I I know this is this may seem at a left field for folks, but I'm I'm really holding a lot of this right now and your story and you know, um, in helping and in recognizing the wrong, the ills of the world, and we can't help everybody. And actually, you know, Sam, did you know I I rescued a puppy?

SPEAKER_03 27:23

Yes, yes, I did here. Great example.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Yeah, and and you know, it this isn't like I was like, you know, I saw something that wasn't right, and I and I didn't want to step in because I'm kind of like, I don't, I'm too tired, I don't need to be doing anything else like this. But I did it because I really felt it's like the divine was like, yeah, actually you do. Like this is like you go take care of this and we'll move this along. But but I was thinking about this in terms of um of how deeply wounded people are and um and mutual aid and how do we step in and support one another? How do we all, you know, just get a little braver to like, you know, not just give lip service to being an ally, but actually become allies. And um, I found this little zine and I just grabbed it because it was a free one, but it was like just about mutual aid, and I haven't finished reading it, but it was like mutual aid is sharing. And I love that because you know I share what little I have with this puppy. And you know, other people have stepped in and offered to help too, and so I'm grateful for that. But we can all like when we learn, when we recognize that this is not okay, I need a shift just this like a one-degree shift, you know? I'm gonna just do this one little thing, and that's gonna be as much bravery as I can muster in the moment. Yeah, but that creates a lot of change, right? Yeah, and so you know, recognizing that there's a part of you that is gone, but there's a part of you that is expanded and changed.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

I think that is the really big piece that I've just been, and you know, I'm going through my own midlife crisis and I am I am like sh just like getting stuff off of me and expanding and shutting. And I feel like I'm doing a lot of different kind of just really doing a deep dive into like what who am I? Like what is actually who what am I doing in this world? So that's that's it.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Alhamdulillah. Thank you for doing that. We uh we all need we all need that all the time and we love and I think you embody that right now in a way that I'm finding really um enlightening and helpful. And um I appreciate I really appreciate you. I appreciate all of you. Appreciate both of you and all of you out there for all the work I know you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Yes, all of it.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

We would love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Yeah, holding hands with strangers. I don't care. All of us, all of us.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

In the door, you know, a little bit smiling at somebody. Yeah, there's so much. It's just uh and do what you can. So yeah. So be in touch. Um, we'd love to have you um in the podcast notes. You'll find a connection to our to our uh Substack where you can be on it and you can talk to us and converse with us and tell all your friends. And also keep keep coming back, keep coming back, and we love you, so please love us. All right, take care. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

Adios, adios, adios conversations at the end of life.