End of Life Conversations: Normalizing Talk About Death, Dying, and Grief
Death touches us all, and yet our culture rarely makes space to talk about it openly. Why is it so hard to have honest conversations about death, dying, and loss with the people we love? What do we do with grief when it inevitably arrives?
End of Life Conversations is a podcast dedicated to normalizing these essential conversations. Hosts Reverent Mother Annalouiza Armendariz and Reverend Wakil David Matthews — both seasoned hospice chaplains and end-of-life companions — invite experts and everyday voices alike: funeral directors, death doulas, poets, researchers, grief counselors, and people who've walked right up to the edge of life and returned. Together, they explore what it means to prepare for death, sit with loss, and grieve in ways that are as individual as we are.
And weekly, we share a conversation with our friend Sam Zemke about something that is currently speaking to us.
Whether you're supporting a loved one through a terminal illness, searching for the right words to start a difficult conversation, or simply curious about what a more death-positive life might look like, this podcast meets you where you are. No question is too strange. No path looks the same.
Subscribe, reach out, and join the conversation. Because the time to talk about it is now.
We want to thank our excellent editor, Sam Zemkee. We also acknowledge that we live and work on unceded indigenous peoples' lands. We thank them for their generations of stewardship, which continues to this day, and honor them by doing all we can to create a sustainable planet and support the flourishing of all life, both human and more-than-human.
We often think of grief as something that follows death. But what about the end of a relationship, a major change in health, losing a home or beloved pet, leaving behind an identity, or mourning a future we once imagined?
Dr. Janice Lundy returns to explore grief and loss beyond death, offering a broader and deeply compassionate understanding of what it means to grieve. She shares how creating a personal loss-history timeline helped her recognize grief she had previously minimized, and how acknowledging those losses can open a path toward greater compassion, love, meaning, and presence.
Janice also introduces the practice of grief companionship: learning how to accompany people through grief rather than trying to fix, explain, or rush them through it.
In this conversation, we explore:
• Why grief isn't limited to death • The connection between grief and spirituality • How non-death losses can shape our lives • Why Janice describes grief as “soul work” • How to create a personal grief or loss-history timeline • What it means to develop a “grief lens” • How mindfulness and spiritual care can support us through loss • What grief companionship is and how it differs from trying to fix someone's pain • How to support someone who is grieving while remaining grounded and resourced yourself • Finding meaning and connection without rushing the grieving process
Whether you're grieving a death, relationship, change in health, loss of identity, or another meaningful part of your life, this conversation offers a spacious way to understand what you're carrying and how we can become better companions to one another.
The Metta Center offers Certification in Grief Companionship twice yearly (Fall and Winter). Please contact us for enrollment details through their website: www.GriefCompanionTraining.com
Keywords: grief and loss, grief that isn't about death, grief and spirituality, spiritual grief, non-death losses, grief companionship, grief companion, supporting someone who is grieving, grief healing, grief education, grief as soul work, meaning after loss, mindfulness and grief.
This podcast helps anyone dealing with loss. It can guide you with end-of-life planning and death-positive resources.
Check out our introductory episode to learn more about Annalouiza, Wakil, and our vision/mission to normalize and destigmatize conversations about death, dying, grief, and loss.
And we would love your feedback and want to hear your stories. You can email us at endoflifeconvo@gmail.com.
We want to be transparent that we use AI tools to help us with titles, show notes, editing, and introductions.
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SPEAKER_00
Welcome everybody. You know, we all recognize that we don't just grieve for the death of a loved one. We also are really experience loss around relationships, health, homes, pets, our identity. Had that happen recently, right? And even even other meaningful parts of life that things that just come up and we think, I missed that. We change and we missed that what we were before. So it happens to all of us.
SPEAKER_03
Or we're in shock at this realization of a loss. So yes. We've uh invited Dr. Janice Lundy to come back to our podcast. And she's also changed in learning something new and is going to share that with all of us. She is going to talk about the lost history timeline that she has uh created.
SPEAKER_00
That was great, yeah.
SPEAKER_03
Yeah. And that helped her recognize the grief that she had experienced in life and not really paid attention to. And I think that's so wonderful to suddenly realize those little tiny um like pockets of grief that we just kind of swoop past and they're important.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah. And her meta center, which we will link to, of course, is doing some new companion grief companionship training. So that's been something new that she's offering to everybody. So we will definitely put a link in the podcast. Be sure to watch the show.
SPEAKER_03
Welcome back. I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Armandares. On today's episode, we are thrilled to welcome back Dr. Janice Lundy, who we first interviewed at the end of our first season in the summer of 2024. It's been a while. Jan is a lifelong educator, author, grief counselor, and spiritual guide.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, we're really glad to have you back. She contacted us and said there's new good stuff going on that we want to hear about it. I'm the Reverend David Matthews. Jan is the founder of the Meta Center, which offers specialized training in spiritual direction, also known as spiritual companionship, including a one-of-a-kind grief companionship training. Having experienced a great deal of loss in her own life, she knows firsthand the transformative power of healing through grief. She believes that navigating grief, loss, and life's many challenges with the support of a non-judgmental and compassionate companion can help us connect with the greater meaning and purpose in life. And we believe that too.
SPEAKER_03
We believe that.
SPEAKER_00
Lift that up more. Yes. So thank you for welcome back, Jan.
SPEAKER_01
Oh, thank you. I'm delighted to be here. It's always so good to share sacred space with the two of you.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03
Well, let's dive in. Tell us about what's inspiring this new aspect of your work.
SPEAKER_01
The question you um asked me to think about was what inspired me to get into grief companionship and the training of grief companions. And I had to think about that for a while because usually I give a pet answer, which is sort of um the loss of my mother, my dear mother in 2022, who was um not only my mother, but a dear friend and confidant. And we were blessed with a close relationship. And so that passing had a profound impact on my life, as you can imagine. Um, I received, if you could call it, guidance from her, support from her, um, after her passing, that it was about this work was about letting people know about the continuation of love, that love continues beyond the physical. And how do we um connect with that and prepare for it and prepare people to be with us, you know, at um the end of life, but also just navigating the many losses of our lives. And so that was when the meta center was founded and the grief companionship training program was developed. But then as I thought about your question, I thought, you know, there's there's another one also, and that was a little bit further back. I'm going to say it was in 2019, it started companioning my mom through her um aging, um, illness, eventual passing. But in that time, I became aware of a process. I was studying for my Psy D, and a process called a loss history timeline. And it's used in therapy, but it's also used in grief counseling. And basically, what you do is you go back to your earliest memory as a child, and just like we would do line graphs in school, do you remember doing those? Yeah, and you put a little mark by any place there was a loss. So these could be little losses, these could be big losses, and you take your time. Obviously, this could take weeks, it could take months, but you you chart this out and you begin to see the landscape of your loss. And I was shocked to put an early at what was there and what losses had happened that I had minimized, I had not paid attention to. Compassionately, kindly, um, doing a little journaling, even to look for what's there that still needs tending, is my favorite word, tending to what needs healing, what needs uplifting, what needs kindness. And it's amazing what happened to me when I started tending even all those little losses and then, you know, the big ones, which ended up being the name of my podcast, you know, little losses everywhere and some big ones too.
SPEAKER_02
Right.
SPEAKER_01
But it was transformative, and it helped me not to be afraid of loss. Because on the other side of loss is um, if not love, at least attachment, meaning and something new. Yeah, something new. Uh I call it an invitation. It's not like a lesson, it's not like even, you know, we don't want to experience loss to have transformation, but we open to the invitation of what the loss is because it does take us deeper into our truest, deepest self. So that motivated me also to um get something down on paper about how do we encourage one another to tend our losses in kind ways. How do we show up for other people to um be there for this kind of tending? And that's how brief companionship evolved from that factor and also the the very personal loss and bereavement process with my yeah, beautiful.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, so that that's a really amazing thought and idea to really not only work with present grief and maybe um anticipatory grief, but past grief and go back and really look at the things that haven't been I love the word tended. Tended that haven't been tended, yeah. So tell us more about this current um reiteration, the thing that's it things that are going on currently and and what that looks like.
SPEAKER_01
Well, there's um currently um two, I'm running two what I call cohorts, two classes simultaneously of grief companionship. And that takes up, I think, most of my energy and and my passion. Um I consider myself a teacher of presence, a teacher of loving presence. And that's what's always on my heart is how can I how can I continue to do that myself in my own life with all my relationships, nobody excluded. And how how might I share what I've learned about how to do that with other people who have a heart for loss in grief work? So most of the the people that I work with in terms of education as a grief educator through the Meta Center, they are people who are um I don't want to say professionals, but often they are. They're spiritual care providers, they're hospice workers, they're social workers, they're counselors, they're educators, they're spiritual directors, they're inner faith ministers. There's there's um a niche of people like yourselves that have training in companioning, but they may not have had that deeper training in how to companion someone through grief and loss. And even many counselors, many therapists have not had that training. So it's not unusual for me to have two or three therapists in an upcoming program, but because there's so much more underneath the surface than we have been taught by our culture. Yeah, there's a new, there's a whole new movement in terms of grief and loss awareness. You both know this. There's there's um it's a slower process, it's a soul process. It's not medical, it's not psychological, it's deeply, deeply spiritual.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, and this is soul work.
SPEAKER_01
You you both represent that in your own lives. And so that's that's the difference in terms of offering a grief support group or grief education. This is a spiritual perspective. We're looking at what is the deeper process and what does it mean to us as spiritual beings having a human experience.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah. And that that presence is so important in that work. So yeah, I appreciate that very much. How many people are in the cohort? Uh the two cohorts right now.
SPEAKER_01
Right now, there are there's one that's eight and one's that one that is six. I keep them ten and under because of the nature of what we do together.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
In this particular model I've created, they are also invited to bring forth one um loss with subsequent grief of their own personally that they will work through while they're also learning simultaneously about grief, getting grief education, as well as how to actually companion someone else. So I call it a three-strand process. Because if they're doing it just from their head, like I'm gonna learn all about grief, and I'm gonna learn how to use a lingo. Yes, exactly. But if I haven't tended again, that deep tending of my own losses, can I really, really show up for somebody else fully? Yeah, with love and presence and uh non-judgment and just just um so much kindness, I guess. The the greater kindness we have towards ourselves and our own losses, this the softer, the gentler that we are with our own losses, we will be with others too. So it's deep, it's deep work.
SPEAKER_00
Uh yeah. It's like any spiritual work, it's about gratitude and forgiveness of ourselves and um and presence. I love that. Yeah. Um, just one more brief question. Are you is this all online or do you do in-person stuff?
SPEAKER_01
It's online. Yeah, I think. Okay. So we have students that can be a good idea.
SPEAKER_00
We put announcements in our we put announcements in our newsletter about it, and we will still put stuff in the uh podcast notes as well. I'm sorry, thank you.
SPEAKER_01
Thank you so much. Well, that allows us to have students from all over the world. And we have, you know, we've had students from Singapore and Ireland and the UK and Australia, and so it allows that broader uh connection to happen, which is really valuable for us in the US that tend to be US-centric to understand other cultures' expressions of good.
SPEAKER_03
Yes.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, that's important.
SPEAKER_03
I have a couple of questions and comments too. And just going on that, you know, I I really love that you're right. Like if you're so US-centric in your studies, it really um narrows the scope of the human experience, right? Like the fact that you had Singapore and Australia, and you know, I really think that is incredibly valuable. But on the other hand, I'm gonna tell you, I don't want to be on the computer anymore. I want to be in the presence of somebody and smell their tears and hear their voice quiver and reach out and touch them, right? So um I hope that you grow so wonderfully that you will have little institutes across the country so I can go and take a class.
SPEAKER_01
That would be lovely. You know, the the thing is, I'm I'm semi-retired. I've been an educator for 50 years.
SPEAKER_02
Wow. Yes.
SPEAKER_01
I have I've done this my entire life. And so this is my way of sort of condensing everything, um taking good care of myself, good, my my family, my my loved ones, grandchildren, um, to do it online. But that doesn't mean that our graduates also are going to go out there, start groups. And we also offer a training about how to how to start what I call a grief sharing circle with the principles and practices we've talked about here. Very different from a grief support group, more in alignment with the work of Francis Weller, that this is spiritual work, soul work that we do in groups. Um, but training people to do that as well. So those individuals are now going out into the the world to start these kinds of groups too.
SPEAKER_03
That is so needed right now. And you know, my my other question for you this isn't human death centered either, I presume. Like we could show up with that, and as soon as you said that, I was like, I had a cat that passed in a really terrible way. And whatever. I still like when I have my regrets, my little list, it's that death that really makes me so sad. It's just still like it really wrecks me. And I'm like, oh, could I remix that to that?
SPEAKER_01
To that circle. Yes, yes, absolutely. And you know, it depends on the facilitator. Some facilitators want to focus on a certain kind of loss and have the same, um, the same, the people there who have experienced a similar kind of loss, but there are others who who don't do it that way. And loss, loss to them is loss, whether it's the loss of a marriage, the loss of a pet, the loss of one's health, the loss of one's home. You know, there's loss is loss, and the principles and the practices really are pretty much the same.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
Um I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_00
It's so good and so important. I do too. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. Yeah. And in the course, we focus on all kinds of losses as well in the training. Um, I encourage them to, if they can, if they have a death loss, but you know, surprisingly, some people today they may they may be in their 50s and not have experienced a significant loss of a loved one yet. That happens to those of us that get more on years, there's there's more loss, you know. But so they can bring another kind of a loss to to the conversation.
SPEAKER_00
That's great. Very important.
SPEAKER_03
So, what are the challenges that you have found along this new journey? This was a wonderful question.
SPEAKER_01
Thank you. We love it.
SPEAKER_02
One of our favorites.
SPEAKER_01
And I and I wanted to be so honest and straightforward about it. One of the challenges is me. It is my my lack of patience about grief education in general. That I want people I want people to know the truth about um loss and love and grief and and joy and how it all goes hand in hand. I want people to know how to respond appropriately to someone who's having um who's experiencing a loss and then in bereavement afterwards, because we just don't do that well in our in US culture, anyway. And so I get impatient. I get impatient with myself for being impatient. Then I have to go to compassion, and I do get impatient sometimes that change is slow, but I know that's the nature of life, and the nature of change is slow, it's very methodical, step by step, it's person by person, heart by heart. And so then I have to do my self-compassion practices to just stop and take a breath and you know, put my hand on my heart and know that I can only do what I can do. Yeah, and so that slows the process down. But I I do sometimes get impatient when I when I read things or witness things in the world of how people just are not in tune with the deeper process of grief and how to show up for someone who's experiencing was we we were talking earlier about how that would make such a difference in the world if we all recognize that we're all connected and together on this path of life and death.
SPEAKER_00
Uh that we would not be able to treat each other poorly or or exploit each other or exploit the planet or exploit as well.
SPEAKER_03
Or we notice we notice others' grief and and and just very with compassion show up.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01
Right? It's so true. And this is one of the things um the our the alumni of our program talk about they within the first couple of weeks of the reading and the conversations and so on, they say all of a sudden, it's everywhere. Grief is everywhere, everybody's got grief. Yeah, they begin to see it, they're seeing through a different lens, and they see how people struggle and suffer, and they don't overlook it anymore. And so the heart opens, the heart expands, it gets more tender, and it's it's sort of like if you've ever been a mother and you've been pregnant, there's that that kind of funny thing that they say pregnant women see pregnant women everywhere. It's like our lens changes, and that's really important when we get in touch with our own grief and loss in a in a kind way, we can begin to see that other people are experiencing not necessarily the same thing because every grief is different, every loss is different, but the human response is very similar, and we can see the pain and the suffering that it causes, and then how can we be there for them? How can we show up for them?
SPEAKER_00
Yeah. Yeah, when we're noticing it, we have and and when we have training and planning and and have worked with this, it's it's like becomes part of our day-to-day service, right? To to notice it and to try to be there for people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03
I do appreciate you talking about the grief lens because I've, you know, I've met people who who 30s, 40s, 50s are like, I've never experienced a close death. I don't understand death. I've never been a part of that. And this is in one of our podcasts from last year, but I just I was standing in the park and I was like, that's a dead goose there. That tree is dying. Uh, you know, the grass is currently dying because it's autumn. And I'm like, it actually is very present around us. And I think that when you do get that lens, you notice it, it's not as frightening. It's just like, oh, there it is again, right? There it is again, and there it is again. It's I love that lens. I love that my lens is all like I find, I see roadkill, I see, you know, withering plants, thirsty trees, like, and I and I'm like, I, you know, I see you. I bear witness to this, this hard moment. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
And and when you do, at least my experience is that it it does open me up to more. It opens me up to the exquisite beauty and the exquisite suffering that is here at the same time. That everything things are being born and things are dying. It's it's stepping into the mystery of this incredible thing called life. And somehow, how can we how can we do the inner journey to hold both with kindness and gratitude and compassion?
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
Because that's the game changer for me. That's to not turn away from the one to hold, you know, all the losses, all the dying. Now we're in fall in northern Michigan, and I get kind of melancholy that the summer is gone. But you know, those trees that are dropping their leaves, those leaves are gonna be fodder and life for something else.
SPEAKER_03
That's right. That's right. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01
How do I hold all of that within me? And hopefully it it brings me to a place of appreciation of life itself, of yeah, the the miracle that we are here for, which is amazing.
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely, yeah. And that's the way we're We support each other is celebrating and helping each other notice life and and beauty and creativity. And and uh you know, we usually ask this question the next question about anything that you fear about death, but uh in this context, now I'm thinking, is there anything that you fear about any of these kinds of losses that that it brings um or that you've noticed maybe uh yourself or others that seems to be a fear that we resp react to in ways that maybe could be um helped by this work?
SPEAKER_01
I think so. I think so. Um again, on a personal note, as I thought about your question, which is a wonderful question, I what came to me is I'm not afraid of dying. I am afraid of of a couple of two things. One is the pain and suffering of the body that might be present at the time of um leaving the body. Nobody wants to suffer, nobody wants pain. When I talk with other people about it, that's pretty much what they say too. It's not so much, it's not so much the leaving or the entering into another plane of existence. It's like I don't want it to hurt a lot. I don't want it to be really difficult and drawn out. And I I get that because I feel that too. But on another level, the thing I'm not I don't feel like I'm ready to die. I'm not ready to let go because I don't want to let go of the love that is here. Right now, I I am one of the people that has a lot of love in their life and a lot of presence of others, and I'm just so grateful. I have a beautiful family and 11 grandchildren, and it's like I'm not ready to leave anybody yet. I when I right after I was married, the day after I was married in 2003 to my my husband, um I we were on our honeymoon in Hawaii and I fell and I hit my head and had a experienced a closed head injury. I also had a near-death experience in that moment. And so that changed my landscape a lot because I I in that moment saw that there was more. I experienced some more. But that doesn't mean in this moment I'm ready to go with the more yet. But I I do know that that we continue on. I have no doubt about that. Um I had what is called a shared crossing experience or a shared death experience with each of my parents, totally by surprise, totally unexpected, um, very different experiences. But to know that they crossed into another form of um awareness, of beingness, of consciousness, and that it was beautiful. Um that there was happiness and there was joy. Um, but am I ready? I'm not quite I'm quite not quite sure. That's okay too.
SPEAKER_03
It's all the all the above is okay.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah, yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_01
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03
So, how do you keep yourself resourced in this line of work?
SPEAKER_01
Another really good question. Because people do say, and probably they ask you too, because of what you do. I mean, isn't this depressing? Don't you sad all the time? And it's like, no, no. Yeah. There was there was this the funny thing about when I was doing my my graduate work in in um death and dying and grief and loss and bereavement and and aging, I started to feel this life-giving movement happening in me. There was like, I, you know, dare I say there was there was there was life, there was joy, and I totally quite understand it. Now I think I have better language for it. Because as we as we learn to hold all of it, we get more in touch with the beauty, we get more in touch with the love, in touch with the joy.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01
And so that's what I do on a daily basis to resource myself. I do the grief is always there, the loss is always there. There can be tears in any moment. I usually cry at least once a day or something. And yet the the love is there too. And so focusing on beauty, love, enjoying life just as it is. Uh I also practice something called, I t I I use what I call an elms approach in my life. And it's something I an acronym I made up, ELMS. I also teach this to my students. But it stands for extraordinary loving mindful spiritual care. So going back to those those four, we live in extraordinary times. We really do. And so we need an extraordinary amount, I believe, of self-kindness and compassion. Um the L is loving, you know, the loving attention to self, which is not egoic, which is the nurture of the spirit and the relationship with the sacred, uh, mindful. So we have good self-awareness, you know, we know what our thoughts are, our feelings are, what our body is trying to say. And then um self spiritual self-care, which is the tending the nurture of the spirit, which is in everything and everywhere. So if I focus on in any given moment, what is the kindest thing I can do for myself in this moment, which is my tri kind of trademark question, I will go to something that might be extraordinary, loving, mindful, and um supportive of my spirit. And that keeps things um fluid, I would say. Without too many ups and downs and crash and burns, and you know, there's melancholy moments, there's there's sad times, but there's also life-giving times, especially in this work. So yeah, I feel really, really grateful to be able to do it.
SPEAKER_00
It really does feel like tidal flow and uh balance, keeping that that's part of the spiritual work that that we we do and we help people do. So yeah, that's beautiful. It's part of it. Sounds obviously you we're all in line together here working on this stuff. That's right. Really appreciate you so much.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah, thank you. We're preaching to the choir.
SPEAKER_00
Well, we're preaching to a lot of people, and maybe some people are thinking, wow, that's something I want to do too. So that's our hope with us. Our audience is thinking about what how they can spread the love and kindness and spirituality and mindfulness, yeah, and excellence. Yeah. Um is there anything you wish we would have asked you that we didn't get to?
SPEAKER_01
You know, thank you for asking. I I I I feel pretty complete about our conversation. And um, I thank you for allowing me to, you know, to come on board and talk about these things today. I yeah, I I just really hope that even in what people are calling divisive times or times of distraction, that we are on a path to cultivating greater understanding and presence for one another, really showing up for one another, even if we're we believe differently, you know, we are especially yeah, and and we all go through the the cycles of life and transition and tough times and yes, and death and dying. So, how can we be here for one another in a way that is kind and supportive and compassionate? That is my highest hope, and that's what my that is purpose always leans toward. Oh yes.
SPEAKER_00
May it be so. May it be so. Well, thank you so much. And you had a quote you wanted to share with us at the end here.
SPEAKER_01
I did. You know, um, many years ago I became a student of Buddhism, and I've always remembered and carried in my heart one of the teachings by the Buddha where he was in conversation with his disciples and they were talking about the holy life. And he said, admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. That has been translated today to say spiritual friendship is the whole of the holy life. And that that fuels me to think how can we in each of our relationships tend to that friendship in a spiritual way that that honors who you are in your spirit and how your um soul is manifesting itself in this life, and that that friendship keeps us on track. That friendship is very rare, it's a jewel, it's a gem, and I do think it is the whole of the whole new life because it keeps us on purpose.
SPEAKER_00
Beautiful. What a blessing to send out at the end here. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03
Really love that. Yes, thank you. I needed to hear that today.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
unknown
Thank you.
SPEAKER_00
So thank you, Jen. It's been a real pleasure talking to you again. And we would be glad to come on your show again if you want. If you're still going to be able to do that, we'd love to have you.
SPEAKER_01
Always a great conversation.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, stay stay what you are, do what you do. And thank you so much for all you are and and blessed. Keep in touch. I really love this. Yes.
SPEAKER_03
Thank you. Maybe you don't you never know. I might, I might just after my this portion of time when I'm reallocating my my my self space, I might join you in that grief uh companionship training.
SPEAKER_01
Yeah. Everybody's welcome, of course.
SPEAKER_00
All right. Much love. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01
Thank you. Many blessings.
SPEAKER_00
Adios. Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to Charles Heastan, the composer of the original music you are listening to now.
SPEAKER_03
And of course, thanks to you, our audience, and all of our amazing guests. Please come back next week for another great episode. Share this with your friends, family, and community. We hope you will subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, and SubTech. Each guest additional information will be found in the podcast notes. And of course, if you have a good end of life story to share, please reach out. We're always eager to hear from you.
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