SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey, welcome everybody. Welcome back to our weekly dispatch for the end of life conversations with Sam Zemke and Reverend Anna Luisa. We're so glad to have this chance. We love doing this. We have so much fun. Today we were uh we were thinking about I sent them both a couple of articles that I read this week about aging. Um I don't think either of them actually read them, but we had a good talk about it. I looked, I know.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

I looked at that, I looked at the titles.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Yeah. It just pissed her off, so she didn't read.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

I didn't immediately get mad. I just was like, life's too short to be reading this shit. Like, gotta go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Well, I mean, I mean, what they were talking about in both of them was the the um culture we live in that worships youth and worships the Ken doll and Barbie doll bodies, you know, and and uh and how sad that is and how disconnected that is from reality, and how that's not acknowledging that life is that each moment of life is beautiful and full, and we we have um a responsibility and an opportunity to love ourselves as we are, and to love the fact that, you know, and that I love the fact that I'm in my 70s and I'm it's the best decade ever, you know, and um and I'm having so much fun. And and yeah, I'm I'm wrinkling in weird places, I'm sagging in weird places, I'm sore in a lot of places, you know. But that's you know, it's good. It's it's it's it's uh it's actually I celebrate the fact that I'm still here and that I have this beautiful day in front of me that I can be of service and I can be in love with and yeah, and and look at the fall happening. It's uh yeah, I mean, geez. I I just feel like I mean that's that was the point of the articles is just to celebrate that and let go of this crazy sense that we are only beautiful if we have smooth faces or big muscles or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

New bio bodies, yeah, yeah. Six packs.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Yeah. So what about you all? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Me first. Um let's see, I was thinking about mentioned a little bit as we were prepping um how this expands not just from aging, but also that fear of mortality, especially when you get into things like uh, you know, the the anti extreme anti-aging practices. And and there are there are realms that of like body positivity that uh work really hard, I'll say, to include people who go the cosmetic surgery route. I personally struggle with that. I I find that um it's it feels indicative of like neuroses and and these complexes and these wounds that we carry around and these fears that we carry around about the fact that we're gonna die and the fact that that you know, like you're saying we can't be acceptable when when our bodies start to age and I mean just the we look at the the culture um in politics right now of certain yeah, yeah. That's part of our job here, I think. Um of of like very specific types and looks in the cosmetic surgery world that that particularly women and in national politics are pressured to conform to.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Are they pressured or they just want to be in the club? Like they might just be, you know, these are signifiers, right? Like they're like, oh yeah, I can afford it's like the no longer stealth wealth, but it's like blatantly like I can afford to be in this club.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Yeah, yeah, and six one half dozen of the other. I mean, yeah. Are are you choosing to participate? Are you choosing to like sacrifice your uniqueness to bar Barbie doll ken doll yourself to fit in with this world so that you are perceived as part of the in-group? And it's just like a very extreme form of that. Um but I really, yeah, I oh back to what I was saying about immortality and mortality, fear of mortality, is this also like plugs into I think some of the certainly the darkest sides of like the AI bubble and the uh tech technocracy that is rising. And and when you listen to these guys talk about their uh their disdain for the human experience, yeah. Absolutely and aging is part of that. They they fundamentally like dislike being human beings and the aging process and eating and you know, all of these things make them like sick, this other neuroses, and so seeking immortality in this age-old way to escape the trap of uh of the fact that they're gonna die by pursuing, I don't know, I'm gonna digitize my brain and digitize everybody else's brain, and then the people don't matter anymore, and we can flip the trap and you know right.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Not everybody else is only the the elite, the ones that they think that they deem worthy. Yeah. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

Uh, you know, I just I'm thinking about all these different kind of Venn diagram circles that I I find that kind of end up meeting in the body body positivity or body awareness. You know, it's like, um I find it so distasteful that people want to look beautiful as they age. Isabella Rossellini, by the way, I don't know if she's ever had any work done, but she's wrinkly now and she took care of herself. She always wore hats, I remember in her photos.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

And, you know, and she's a lovely older woman. And I aspire to that. And uh, I have friends in her 30s who have been doing Botox. And for a hot second, I was like, oh, maybe I should too. And then I was like, one, it's expensive. Two, it's kind of gross. And, you know, and then three, it was like, my friend, you know, would go on a regular basis in in her 30s because she's like, I and actually, there's a gentleman I also know who does the same thing. And um, I'm not gonna sit here and say, like, I'm always delighted by wrinkles. Uh sometimes if I've been smoking and drinking too much, I look really rough. And I'm like, oh, that's my, you know, my uh what is it called? My natural consequence for the uh choices that I've made. So, you know, um, but I was just thinking about how I like what you said, Sam, about um they they don't want to, the human experience is just so loathsome and something to be superseded, right? And uh I was I was thinking about how we always talking about we're just souls or spirits in a corporal body here to experience this this this thing. Like this is finite, you know, you you get to do it maybe once, maybe multiple, who knows? But I just I I get really um I'm really sad. I mean, listen, I wear makeup, I like to like look pretty. I this weekend I went to uh my first ever horror festival. Oh my god, it was so fun. And I loved seeing all the Baba Yagas, like women who like really like went in and made themselves look really old and haggy. And I was like, that's kind of cool. I realized like I think the horror community is actually where I would probably fit in better. Like, nope, everybody nobody gives a shit about what you're wearing, how you look, if you're in a wheelchair and you've got your costume. It's like the I felt like a safe, like the burning man community and this community, I felt like, oh, I could just be me. And nobody is like, you know, like, well, did she really like hit any of these things, right? But and I also noticed that it was like from children to very older elders who were part of this.

SPEAKER_03 8:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

And so, you know, we're celebrating, and part of it too, is like understanding the things that make us fearful and actually turning to face them. I have always been afraid of horror. I've never indulged, and now I'm suddenly very interested in it. And uh because people tend to not want to face the fact that there is a you know, catastrophic climate collapse coming. And you, you know, we do not need to be doing shit to our bodies to look something like let's let's look like you know, we've been out in the sun toiling under the sun to to make food for people who don't have food to eat. Like that's the look I'd rather go for.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Amen. Amen of that. Yeah. And you know, I think one of the things the articles were talking about is this sense that um, you know, as we lose I as as I lose the ability to bend over without pain, you know, that's that's a loss. That's something that I do grieve in at some level, you know. Um, but um, but I love the fact that even though those are losses, so change is change is loss, that you can you can grieve them, you can ritualize the grief even, which is a great idea always. But part of the ritual is like we've talked about before, finding the joy and the beauty and celebrating. Wow, how wonderful that I I I can bend over and still get back up.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

But let me just stop right there though. Doesn't your grief about aging center your ablest body, though?

SPEAKER_03 10:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:03

And people who have never been able to reach over because they're disabled, how are how are they allowed to grieve as they age? Because they're not going to have that same experience. So why is it that we as able-bodied humans get to be like, boohoo, I'm aging when there are people who have really struggled their entire lives with a body that they've been born into, right? Like it almost seems so narcissistic again to like sit here and be like sad about aging bodies when like all bodies are so different and cut and go through so many different, you know, pieces. Imagine like uh, you know, an eight-year-old with leukemia who feels like ass, like joints hurt, throwing up all the time, can't get up. Like, are we not going to allow the grief of that body disintegrating? Because it's less than a you know, an older person. Like, come on, old people, get over ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

I don't, I I feel like that's to me, that feels like, you know, we don't, I don't like the one of the articles was about Sandra Bullock and how pr gorgeous she looks, you know, still at 62. And I what I loved about that article is the person was saying, you know, I don't judge or do or or put her down or, you know, you know, I I feel like we don't want to say that about anybody, yeah, sure. It's a very good point that, you know, we should we we should get over ourselves, you know. But on the other hand, I can't judge anybody for having the feeling of loss uh for wherever they are, whatever their loss is. Yeah. Um it's not not my job, you know. But on the other hand, and I also, you know, I think absolutely it's important for us to know that notice that there are people that are that's part of, I think, for me anyway, that's part of the way I process that is to recognize that I'm doing pretty damn good, in fact, compared to getting it.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

It's it's also our culture, though. Our culture has has been like such big babies about everything that happens in our lives, right? Like there are communities in different countries that have aged. And, you know, I I always love reading about Japanese older women who haven't actually experienced um menopause. Like they're like, what is that? You know, nothing in their culture says that every woman at the end of her menses will like have all these horrible like brain fog and everything. And it's literally a cultural apparatus that keeps us like buying the stuff, you know. I mean, I went to a, I'm gonna say this on your mom's gonna hear this, Tam. But I went to an over 50 uh retreat last year, and they gave us gittie bags, and I was like, okay, cool, like you know, I'm gonna get a vaginal expositories for dryness. And I was like, wait a minute, why are you why aren't there condoms in like a lube? I don't understand. Why are we assuming? Why are we assuming it's such I I don't know. I find it very distressing.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Oh, yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that and bring that up because it's it's totally real. Yeah, go ahead, Sam.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Oh, just the that the way that a cultural narrative shapes our experience. And that ties into what we're talking about, about all the fear and the judgment and even the like grief and loss that we feel about uh the changes in our bodies, uh is all it's all born out of that that cultural perception that these changes signify something negative. Right, right, and they signify a loss, even because even an ache and a pain in a certain cultural context could be, I don't know, something maybe not celebrated, but you can acknowledge it without feeling it as a loss.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Like, oh, like I'm a creaky old tree, but that's really beautiful, and it signifies these other like ripenings in my life. Right. But I do think that to sort of circle back to what you were saying about different bodies and um and I you know I think that's all a matter of perspective, right? Like we can hold that there are people who have who have never had the privilege of an able body and and use maybe our experience of loss maybe this is sort of what you were talking about, or or leaning towards what he'll as a way to build empathy rather than like hierarchicalize our suffering and say, like, oh my gosh, like the the body pain I'm having, if I can if I can remember the child with leukemia and and the pain that they go through, that can bring us closer together. And I can have empathy and compassion for that person and compassion for myself, like you're also saying, Joaquila's like, and like how many years have I had not thinking about this and not worrying about that? What a gift. So bring you back to gratitude, bring you back to compassion for yourself and for others. Yeah.

unknown 15:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

I was just asked with as soon as uh I think a little minute ago, I was thinking about wouldn't it be amazing if an elder um reached, like leaned over to reach for something and had an audible? Because I also read that, you know, as you at a certain age you start making more noises, like, oh, you know, an elder reaches over and somebody in the collective hears it and is like, oh, it's starting, right? Like the body is shifting. And that person comes and is like, you know, uh, uncle, uh, you know, let me reach that for you. And then noticing that, you know, now is like almost like a we've just crossed a threshold. And now is a time to really lean into this person because there is an incredibly finite amount of time now, right? Because because we notice these things about our bodies. Like I have been like on this crazy trade train right now. Like, I don't have much time. I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. I'm like gonna go to a horror festival. I'm gonna, you know, I am like, I am on this mission right now to do me. And um, but I but recognizing that at some moment I have to, I'm gonna have to like iterate to my elder years. And, you know, hopefully somebody in my family will be like, now I can help you. Now I can, what do we need to do to like move this magic carpet ride forward into your death? Because that's ultimately what it's gonna be, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:36

And it's like so beautiful in my mind, but you know, culturally it's like, oh yeah, what an idea that the culture in our community would then would embrace what they see and and embrace our need and and and be there for us.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

I can talk and uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

I love that right now as I look out the window, you know, we are being taught by the scripture of nature all about this, you know. Things are tree leaves are turning brown and or yellow or green, and they're and the trees are settling in for the winter and all the plants, everything, you know, it's like getting ready. They're all celebrating this with beauty. I mean, guys, gorgeous time of year. Um so you know, it's it's that wonderful metaphor for what we're talking about here. There's no no trees are out there going, Oh, I'm so damn old. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

Well, and even our culture, our freaking like obsessive culture is like getting on plane rides to go leaf peeping in freaking, you know, the east coast. And like I said, text from somebody who's like, when, you know, when's the right time to come and see, you know, the leaf in your area? I'm like, I don't know, whenever they want, you know, like I don't have the calendar. And in, you know, but we we we are ready to go and watch them elder into winter, and yet we do not allow people to elder into their own August years, right? Like it's such a dis you know, like dissonant mind. I mean, I love paradox, but that is actually a very unhealthy paradox, I think.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Well, and when we have to hold, I think that's part of our work, you know, is to hold that paradox and and to be aware and to be um compassionate and gentle with each other and with ourselves. And that as you mentioned, Sam, I think that's a huge part of it. Uh because, you know, we all I I know, I'll just speak for myself. When I find myself being um less than kind to myself about who who I am, what I am, how I've become, what I become. Um, there's that estaf for Allah in the Sufi tradition. It's that oops, I forgot. Um, this is all divine, this is the way it is because the way it is, you know. And it's a it's a thing to be honored and celebrated. And yeah, we are the manifestation of the divine, and and every piece of us, every part of us, everything that we go through, all of the pain and the suffering and all the beauty and joy is all the same, all part. And and I love what you said about recognizing as a community, recognizing where other people are and being there for them in that space is so important.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

So let's talk about eldering. Yay!

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Yeah, yeah. Here we go. So, Sam, you get to be the one that goes, Oh, you look like you could use some help. Yeah. Or, you know, maybe you have your own Asian pay, probably.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Well, it is, and and I I've talked about it before when we've touched on this subject. That especially I think with the the generations that are like really aging, like my grandfather who's in his 90s, or like and people in their 80s who are really starting to lose faculties and lose uh ability, is also uh maybe the peak of hyper-individualized culture and self-reliance culture, and you know, like the pre-hippie break kind of kind of generation. And so like watching my watching my grandfather who's losing his hearing, losing his his eyesight, you know, his his world is closing in, he's tippy, he's had brain stuff, but the frustration with losing that is, I don't know, really interesting to watch, heartbreaking sometimes. Yeah. And and there are places where uh allowing or encouraging somebody to maintain their independence with a supportive arm available. And so rather than I've been having conversations about aggressive helpfulness also and how that can in I think I think it's like a in like Buddhism and stuff like that, like allowing people to do their own thing, or maybe it's it's Taoism. Um that like when people ask for help, great. But if somebody doesn't ask for help, let them work through their stuff, or offer but not insist. Right, right. And so, you know, if somebody's groaning to to bend over and pick something up, like maybe that's okay. And it's good for us to continue to bend over and pick things up and keep our bodies moving and doing things and be active as we age, because it it preserves preserves our body. But you know, also my grandfather bent over to sweep something up and fell over and cracked his head open, and there's blood all over the floor and So two different medical professionals in the family came over and said, you need to go to the hospital. And his fatigue of going to so many read was that the fatigue of going to so many doctor's appointments as an aging person, he was like, no, I'm not going to the hospital. Yeah. No. No, no, no. Like the most adamant, even though there was like, I'm we're all like, you are insane. You are an insane, stubborn person.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Head wounds actually bleed a lot, but are generally not that bad. So maybe that was the case.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, maybe. But who knows? I mean, you know. But yeah, and he's 90.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

Leave him alone.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Maybe he's just ready to go. And that's okay too.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

You know, like the archetypes start at the fool and they end at the fool. Why don't let us be fools for God's sake, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Like be sweet.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

I mean, it's not even sweet. It's just like common decency. Like he's choosing. And we kept talking about, you know, people have the right to decide for themselves. He sounds like he's cognitively fine, right? But I was also thinking about it, like I got kind of excited because you have you heard of those caves that you can go in for like 28 days and immerse yourself in darkness and no sound. And like uh, I can't remember the name right now, but it's like it's really expensive. And I'm like, I've always wanted to do that. And I'm like, oh my God, if I go blind and deaf, I could just do it on my own for the rest of the time until the end of time. I'd be like, it doesn't cost anything. And it won't cost anything. I kind of like that. I'm gonna write that in my advanced care director plan.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Let me be if I'm deaf.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

If I yeah, if I'm deaf and blind, just like keep me in a room with a bed on the floor and just give me my shakes or whatever you need, but just keep it very simple and let me just enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Yeah. We can start a big subwoofer so that I can feel the music. Oh my god, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Well, it's supposed to be silence, right? Because you start tripping after a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You start seeing things and talking to whatever's, and I'm like, I want that.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

We learned about um a person whose advanced dementia advanced care directive said that at a certain point they wanted to be just uh B S C D voluntarily stop eating and drinking. And in the facility they were in, they wouldn't do that because they were, you know, it's against their rules and they thought it would be abuse, you know. So the family took it home and and uh honored.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

Provided honor their wishes, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Um and um well, and the and the facility sent turned them over to DSAS for elder abuse. Uh but DSAS said that's not elder abuse because it's very clearly written, you know, that's what she wants. But what came out of that, um, and I I've heard a couple of times now is basically comfort level V SED, which is exactly what we're talking about. You can make somebody who's no longer cognitively aware and who is especially if they said at that point, please quit feeding me, um, you can say, Well, here's water, here's food. And if they don't want it, if they don't act, you know, take it, then you don't push it, you don't force it, you certainly don't stick a tube in them, you know. Um, and I I think that's um really again just a great example of in the end of life stuff that we do of uh uh honoring people's agency and and the end of their lives. So well, yeah, that was fun.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Uh roller coaster rides.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Yeah, one more to bring it to bring it around as we close, uh, since you were talking about your horror festival on the if anybody has the stomach for uh a fairly intense horror film about the uh the challenges and complexes and the struggle of aging, especially in like a media and celebrity-centric context. There's a film that came out a couple years ago called The Substance. Um it's sort of like kind of medical, very body horror, uh, very stylized, really excellent movie, but just like be aware that what you're stepping into. Um but but a really, really phenomenal exploration and critique of the the constant pursuit of uh youth and youthfulness. Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

I watched it. The it's the whole body uh horror kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Yeah, send us a link, we'll put it in the podcast notes.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

Yeah, I watched it a while ago and it was actually really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Cool. Well, I probably won't watch it. I'm not a horror fan. That's okay. I love you. I'll just trust y'all that it was a good example of this. Yeah. And uh thank you to everybody. And yeah, so yeah, thanks for watching.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

Listening.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Come back next week. Like us, subscribe, tell all your friends, and adios.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Adios.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Adios the last conversation about the end of life.