SPEAKER_01 0:01

I think some of us have often wondered if we could talk to our people or pets who have passed on.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Uh ghosts, are they real? What's going on with this poltergeist? Our movie industry spends a lot of time trying to figure out how we can like communicate with our dead. Yeah. I we just got the pleasure of talking to Jenna Matlin.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

I think it's Matlin, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

And she is a tarot uh actually she's a medium. Yeah. And she is now using tarot decks as a format to find a way to give people peace when they are in so struck down by grief. Yeah. And communicating with um, or actually finding the signs to communicate with the other side, if that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

So yeah. It was it was so fun. I mean, she we when we first met her, we got online and talked to her for a bit. And she did a reading for us for our podcast, right? And she's got an overhead thing so we could actually watch the cards. And it was very unique and very fascinating. And I'm not, I'm not a tarot guy. Ana Luisa has her deck, but I don't have a deck. Um, and I would generally be kind of like, yeah, whatever. You know, but I was fascinated and really got a lot out of that. And then talking to her, she's such a uh thoughtful person, and she really is doing this out of the generosity of her heart and presence. And obviously, it's real stuff. And we've we've talked to other people who are mediums in this podcast as we always come back thinking, yeah, well, we don't have the senses maybe to find out to hear all of the things that are going on around us. And so definitely no reason to doubt doubt that people are trying to communicate in some way. So it was really.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

And also, yeah, and people in deep in their grief are trying to find some way to reconcile their feelings with the loss that they're having or going through, right? So she recognizes that and she is just building the space for grief and loss. And I really appreciate that. That's how she's operated, one of the things that she does in this world.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Yeah, yeah. So great. So you do not want to miss this. Be sure to watch the whole thing because it's gorgeous, wonderful, and she's amazing, and you'll get to hear much more about her. So enjoy. Enjoy welcome back, friends. I am the Reverend Wakil David Matthews, and today we are really excited to talk with Jenna Matlin Matlin. Is that pronounced right? Thank you. Jenna Matlin. Jenna holds an MS in organizational psychology and a BA in anthropology with an end-of-life doula training through Enelda. And we've talked to other doulas from Enelda and uh completed training in psychedelic integration support. Philadelphia magazine named Jenna as its spiritual guru of 2019. Her book, Will You Give Me a Reading, received the 2023 COVR Silver Visionary Award, and she has a new book coming out that we'll be talking about today.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

That's right. And I am the Reverend Mother Ana Luisa Armendares. And since 2012, Jenna has maintained a full-time tarot practice and is known for a highly intuitive, innovative techniques. Her revolutionary approach to tarot mediumship specifically helps nav her clients navigate grief, death, and communication with the dead. Based in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, she teaches internationally and speaks at conferences. I am so delighted because we had our meet and greet and I left feeling like I met a sister. So I'm so grateful that you had time to join us today.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:45

Oh gosh, thank you so much. I feel very much the same. Um I really appreciate the time.

SPEAKER_03 3:51

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Yeah. So what inspired you to well, what are the facets that created this moment for you that you're doing this kind of work?

SPEAKER_02 4:02

Ah, well, excuse me. The tarot book of the dead um was a book that came through me rather than of me, if I'm honest. And I was being stalked by the archetype of death showing up everywhere in the weirdest places. And I remember thinking, I'm not at like, I'm not a goth girly. I'm not like, you know, I I love life. I love a bright, like, I don't look like the person who would be doing this. And then um blue oyster colt's don't fear the reaper came on as I was saying that. And I was like, oh, I love that. And I was like, what, you know, and what I came to understand was uh death doesn't want sycophants, death wants truth, and and death is a friend of life, and death doesn't cause death. Other things cause death. Death is the remover of suffering. And so um walking with death in this way fundamentally changed the course of my life, but the the underpinnings of that came from um very young innate mediumship ta talent um that I put away for a really long time because of trauma. Um my stepfather committed suicide when I was 22. And he was a very troubled man, and he was an alcoholic, and I was afraid of him, I was terrified of him. Six weeks after his suicide, he came to me in like a one of those dream visits. You know, it's a dream, but it's a visit.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

And he radiated a there's no word in English I can think of that would that would be accurate, like his this luminosity, this joy, but it was it was more than these words. And he said to me, Jenna, I'm better now. That was what he said.

SPEAKER_03 6:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

He's like, I'm good, I'm better. And he just radiated this like love and joy. And he was like, I want to show you something. And I was like, I'm not going anywhere with you. Like I still, you know, I didn't trust it. Um, and then after that, I've had at least five to seven mediums over the many, many years say, Who's the guy behind you with the gun or with his fingers like that? And so um, as I was hitting my own midlife crisis, I guess, you know, um, that's when it became clear that I had to really embrace what I put away out of fear. And so um using tarot for mediumship has never been traditionally done uh for hu lots of historical reasons. Um, but I wanted to show how tarot not only can do that, if you're a believer in that, but tarot can also do many other things, um, including in the chat in one of the books chapters, I um show you how to use tarot to do a mediumship reading for the spirit and then a reading for yourself at the same time. So using the basis of excuse me, separation, liminality, and then like integration, we can see that you have your own story arc of what that's gonna look like after your loss, but so does that spirit too. And that essentially we are on the same strange journey, even though we are now in two different dimensions doing things. That's right. Yes, yeah, yeah, beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

I really love that. It just makes me you know go back and be like, yes, you we don't speak of our dead as being gone. We just speak of them as being around at this point. So so they are still in their own engaging of their the death or whatever that is on the other side that we talk about. You know, so that's really lovely.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

And the work is what is mediumship here to do besides be like, oh wow. And if we look at global shamanic traditions, um for example, there there is a population of blind women in Japan that have a very sacred position as mediums, and they are specifically for the families who just lost somebody. And so one of the things in my book is how do we help heal relationships that could not be healed in this lifetime in in both of us in the same body? So estrangements or I get clients that they want to bring in their biological parent that they were adopted and they never met. And so uh there are ways that we can we can use this practice to help us find some healing and closure should we desire to do so. Um and it's interesting because in the book, the people that like grok this, and I hate that grok has been taken over by he who shall not be named. But because I love and have used that word for decades. Um so the people to grok the this book are actually the the the death workers, the grief workers, the palliative and hospice care nurses. These are the people that instantly get what I was trying to do. And who's actually giving me resistance are the tarot readers, because tarot readers are trained mostly in we are solving a problem or we're clarifying something, or we we are we are future oriented. Whereas this work is sitting often with what is, sitting with grief without minimizing it, making it small, and using tarot to let it let it speak its course. And so those of us uh in the death realms already um who maybe happen to have a tarot card deck, this is gonna make them feel like, oh yeah, this is mine. But tarot readers, I'm having to really work to get them into the fold. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

So that sounds like the it's a challenge that you're encountering at this point, too.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

Yes. Um, I'm gonna say though, maybe we don't worry so much about other tarot readers because the New York Times just had an article two days ago and it talked about uh not to dismiss mediums. Like literally, she was like, There is a place in our world where mediums are really essential and can help us with the grief.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Yeah, exactly. So there's a lot of interview. Yeah, we've interviewed a few of them. And we've there's definitely it's always fascinating. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

In the book, I couldn't find much, but there's two studies I found that I I wanted to make sure I included, which was um the impact of a mediumship session upon someone in grief and how some of its long-term outcomes far exceed um like grief counseling or grief support circles. And and I know that to be true because if you can validate something that there's no way, how would I know that? I don't but they do um the ability to find peace that some version of like we're not human anymore when we cross over. And I I believe the other side doesn't have space-time, but I do think the one thing that's universal is love and relationship.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think there's good evidence for that. There is the other thing we've you know noted when we've been talking to other folks with this who are interested in mediumship or immediums themselves, or of one person I think just spent time with a medium after his father died. Um, and his grandfather, I think, was uh was like some famous medium back in the day.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Oh, that's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

But then um it's just a sense that you know, we we have such a limited perspective. Our our, you know, our ability to see and hear and know things is very, very limited by our stories and by our actual perceptions. And um, and so we live in this this kind of weird scientific world theoretically, where you know, if we can't see it, if we can't measure it, yeah, if we can't measure it, if we can't see it, um, then it doesn't exist. And even quantum science is telling us that's wrong. So you know, so um yeah, I think I think it's just it's interesting that people uh shy away from the idea that we that things are going on that we can't possibly um measure maybe grog. Yeah, yeah. Grog, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Um I guess, yeah, well, and you know, it's interesting. I think that the I'm wondering if the reason people can't immediately understand this is because it takes uh a I don't want to call it a trauma, but like kind of a a severing of the rationalist scientific mind to be able to like lean or fall into the liminal state where that actually can resonate. Because you know, when people are people are seeking out mediums after the death of a law of or loss of a loved one, and they are in that state where their mind is like cognitively, what just happened that this person is no longer with us? And I think when they just like push through that, suddenly it's like, wait, there are other avenues to continue this conversation, this awareness, this knowing. And you know, I'm wondering if right now, as we we we enter into this time when so many losses around, I mean, I think it started with COVID in 2020 and it's continuing with like the loss of so many aspects of our life. Where I I wonder if at a moment when your brain just kind of like cracks open and the scientific rationalist has to be hushed. And that's when all of the work of mediumship, all of the work of understanding spirit and anything that's not that's considered supernatural now is like normal. That's when people can understand it.

SPEAKER_03 14:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Well, you know, I'm really I'm really struck by what you're saying because in in the book, in in the chapter of the lovers, I talk about the story of Isis and Osiris. And there's something called the Song of Isis and Nephthys. They were both married, they're all siblings, right? Back in the day. And but they're sisters. And so um, I I just want to like read a small little part because when we get to pre-Christian, we see women's grief being very hot and angry and horny, actually. I honestly like like the confusion of your body being ripped from this primary. Um, and so Isis and and Nephthys, the translation, um where you know, Isis is basically saying, My heart is hot at your wrongful separation. My heart is hot because you turned your back to me. So you see, she knows Osiris wouldn't have left, but still the part of her is like, no, but he left and it's all his fault, right? That double insanity that happens in early Greek.

SPEAKER_03 16:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Uh the two regions are upheaved, heaven and earth are upheaved. The roads are confused. While I am seeking in order to see you, while I am in a city which has no ramparts, I yearn for your love towards me.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Right. And that's a goddess. So what chance do we have?

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Exactly. We're all goddesses and gods.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

I mean, I wish we were more. Well, we were allowed to be more goddesses and gods.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

That's what we're, yeah, that's what we're working toward here, right? Well, great. This is beautiful. Um you could tell us, maybe tell us a little bit more about how you do this work. And also you were kind enough to do a reading for us. I wonder if you'd want to do a demonstration, something like that, this time. Would that work? Do you think we could do something like that?

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Do we have I'd rather not take the time to do that? It's a little long, but you know, do you we did you keep a picture of of our little thing and then we could talk about how what the process was like?

SPEAKER_02 17:09

I don't know if I have the picture. Oh, wait, that was a minute.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

If you have it, we can might have it, actually.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Um we could even just talk about how cool that was.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

I would love to talk about how cool that was. So that was so yeah, so tarot can do mediumship plus many other things, including grief work.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

And um, there was a chapter I wanted to talk about with you guys. Um it's it's the it's the Sun chapter. And and I'll start with a brief story. I have a client, she's in her 80s. I've seen her a couple of times, and then I taught at a at a library recently, and she came out to me and she's like, Jenna, you are on my short list to come see me if I'm um like in a coma or if I'm I'm unable to be. She and I was like, really? I didn't know we were that close, you know. And she goes, No, what I want you to do is if I'm not dead, but I'm still around, I need you to come and bring your cards and figure out what the heck is going on. Oh and um there's a part in the tarot book of the dead that that is a psycho-pomp chapter, but not the kind where you're like, go to the light. Right. Who am I to tell like that's not my lane. But but our lane can be to support the unzippering process and to calm the body terror, which is not always the same as the soul's desire to ascend. Which is why we often have like, I want to like, you know, people that are in extreme um elderly age, like, why is this not happening for me yet? Right. I feel that there's the body has another opinion that the soul and the heart is like, can we get on the same page? Yep. Yeah. So there are interventions in the book um that keep us firmly in the corporeal, in our lane, but it's from this side we're helping and easing and loving that transition with the body.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Wow, that's wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Yeah. I'm thinking of that beautiful picture of the guy in in our world sticking his head into the the other world. Do you know that picture I'm talking about? It's very close. No doubt. I don't know if I can find it, but it's a beautiful, um, lovely picture that I've seen several times. Did you find anything on Luisa?

SPEAKER_01 19:38

No, I'm looking because I I have a bunch of t death scenes, but I was like, did I screenshot it? What did I do? Because I remember I wanted to show it, share it with you. Um, but we could we could talk about the processes. I keep uh Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

So and I can show people. So um one of the um activities in the book is called Letting Your Grief Speak. And so its procedure is um I had chosen about 60 words that just kept calling to me as I read a lot of books about grief. And for example, some of the words are like legacy, avoidance, coming to completion, moving forward, the wound, honoring the story to be endured. And so what you do is you put all of the words face down and you pick five or seven of them, and then you decide the shape. How do you want the words to talk to? What's the process? And you do that before looking at any of the words. Then you choose a tarot card for each one of the word cards, and you also do that before you know what it is. So it's a completely blind reversed tarot card reading because what we're doing is we are tying your conscious mind. I'm trying to tie its arm behind your back. You know what I mean? And trying to force it, yeah, force that other knower to come forward. And so then what happens is we get this beautiful process or shape, and we look at the words and we look at how the words are speaking to us in the moment that we're in. And um, and then we turn over the tarot cards, which give us fuller meaning. So I did one today actually for someone who is going through profound heartbreak and loss, not just a death, death, but like a death of love. And um, in the middle, it was what must be endured. And above her was burdenshape. And then next to what must be endured was moving forward, and then below her was integration. So all of that was blind. And so what we saw was Burden's shape was Four of Wands, which is a a marriage card typically. So the Burden was the dream of that. And um her, this must be endured. It was a Knight of Cups, which represents the journey, the overall journey of love, which isn't over for her. But the her, she she's like, oh, but I need I can't deal with the liminality. It's making me crazy. Right. And then the moving forward became nine of cups, which is the wish is granted. So she got a very clear message from her grief that you must feel me. You must accept me and endure me in order to actually get what you want. And what you want is beyond what you can imagine, what you can even consider. And we have to accept the fact that perhaps the universe is more creative than us, more regenerative than us. And surrendering to the process is what's going to get you through it.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

I love that. And I remember the one that we did, we were kind of similarly just I think we were actually asking about the podcast. Podcast. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Oh, I wish I had it. Yeah. Yeah. No, and I'm surprised because I I I emailed it to Wakil, and I was like, I know I had it.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Man. Well, we'll we'll see if we can find it. But I just what I remember about it was we are in this kind of transitional state right now. We're almost to the third year anniversary. We're thinking about what next, what's next, what happens. And it was very um, I don't know what was the word for it, very encouraging and uplifting, and just kind of saying, you know, this is like you just said a minute ago, this is the path you're on.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Um celebrate it and and be with it and you know, and be in acceptance. And and also uh the other part was um acceptance and surrender, you know. So what's coming next is coming next, and and we will find our way, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Um I did find that thing, it's called the flamerian um engraving. Let's see if I can pull it up for you. Yeah, here it is.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Well, as you're pulling that up, I want to just tell our listeners like when we met, and it was even between the two of us with Joaquila and myself, we got to look at this pretty groovy table. Yeah, so we could see her table, we could see all the cards, and she had us pick up pick art pieces or like little cards with art on them. And Joaquil and I just took turns, and she and we would literally uh talk about where we wanted them placed. Oh, that's beautiful. And so there was a lot of agency in how we were moving or placing those visions of art, and then you we turned them around, right? And that's when the words were yes, and we and we even had the chance to decide which order, and what we ended up doing it was in a circle form, and so we went clockwise, I think I remember we did clockwise, and I really appreciated that it was very interactive, and I felt as though I were right there with you, yeah, and it was very clear, and I can see how when someone is in their grief moment, like having hanging out with you for an hour or whatever, it's like it's the art therapy piece, it's the mediumship, right? It's the the collecting of our grief in a circle that you and you're you're you can support the grief no matter what, you're ready for it. So uh I really uh I appreciate this and I really enjoy doing it.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Yeah, yeah. It was quite lovely.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Well ha we'll do it again. Have you back on, we'll play like I would I'll do this all day long. Um there's also um because of my work as a medium, I you know, I get I get a lot of disenfranchised grievers. So for example, let's say an affair partner and they couldn't go to the funeral, they don't, you know, there's there's they're not in the collective like circle of support. And um I'm not there to judge anybody's journey. I'm there to to to just just to be like the relay, really. Um but sometimes clients will come in with trauma that to me seems really unnecessary. Like, for example, someone came in and was like, you know, my dad died 15 years ago and he was he thought he was gonna go to hell, did he? And like my my heart is just like, oh, like this, the sun has been carrying this sad unknowing for so long. And it, if it's not dealt with very early in the trauma, because early grief is is like a train wreck, you know, it's trauma. And if there isn't someone who can help them with this kind of stuff, it can calcify. Yes. So uh based off of that observation, I created a very, very careful, very trauma-informed um early, the first three maybe four weeks max after death, the very, very early days. But I created it in a way where it's very um, very like centered towards not not accidentally adding more trauma and really about getting at the things that hurt before those things can become like PTSD symptoms or whatever. And that's distinct from my normal mediumship, which is after six months from that. So yeah, um, I mean, I'm a very, I'm a fully into I'm very integrated. Sometimes I wish I wasn't like I like everything touches everything else inside of me and I feel everything next to everything, you know. But so um that informs yeah, but that informs like that I'm looking at all of these very distinct needs that I don't see really being attended to.

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

And so this book was the attempt to plug some of those holes.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Yeah, beautiful, yeah. And the other part about those unattended griefs is that they magnify and they show up in weird ways, you know. Like 10 years later, you're like, why am I feeling so uh upset about that thing? And often it's just reflections or um echoes from that immediate that grief that you haven't dealt with. So I love that that's being addressed by this as soon as so wonderful. So glad you're on here again.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

I know.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Well, you talked a little bit. Uh go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Yeah, no, we talked about the challenges. Do would you have more to say about the challenges?

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Um I mean, doing mediumship is ch is it's ch it's a it's a high lift. And it requires a lot of trust. Um and um and I think the hardest part is when you offer something and it's not tied up in a neat positive package for the person. That's easy to do. That makes people happy, but I don't think it's always true. So often I will get impressions and I'll have no clue what the heck this is. And they may or may not at first. Um, and it takes tremendous um faith in the process and willingness to be like, wait, maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is wrong. We don't know yet. Um, so that that's a challenge. So if someone wants to move into this kind of work and you're a perfectionist, you're gonna have a really hard time.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

Yeah. Never mind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

If you love Excel spreadsheets, you will this will be hard for you. Um that's fine. Uh yeah, because you're you're having to transmit something before you have the meaning. And we are trained to do the opposite in this culture, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:49

That's true. Yeah, that's incredible. That's a challenge for all of us, I think. Especially all of us with this empathic uh leaning to trust those things when they come up and we feel them and we feel that we know them, but we we can't prove it, you know. We can't write it into a spreadsheet. Yeah. But uh we know it, and we do know it in our hearts, and and to be an acceptance of that is yeah, that's definitely a challenge for thank you. That's a great, great question, great uh noting, noticing. Um well, you know, you've been dealing with this stuff, you've been working with this. Obviously, this has been um a part of your life and existence now for some time. And is there anything you feel like you are afraid of for your own end of life?

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Um I really don't want like shortness of breath to be the thing. That's like oddly, I'm more afraid of that than the death part. Yeah, hey, that's real. It is very real. I'm like, I'm like, no, I I don't really fear death in transition, but I don't want to be suffocated. I know that's very strange, weird, oddly thing, but um, pretty much one of the hardest things. Rinpoche says, you know, death is not putting out the lamp, it's extinguishing the light because the dawn has come.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Oh, that's pretty, yeah, that's beautiful. Very nice. Ah, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Um as you do this heavy lifting with your clients and your the spirits who are lingering around telling you things, how do you take care of yourself? What are your spiritual practices so that you don't get bogged down with all of this?

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Yes. Well, I would say typically I don't have spirits talking to me because the the process I do and I teach in the book is really looking at global shamanic practices. So um other cultures that do mediumship would most likely be very shocked at the Western style that that you just kind of walk up to somebody at the grocery store and it's like your grandma said to get that, right? They would be offended and shocked because when we look at, and of course, anthropology is my background, so that's always the lens that I look at. But when you're looking at like voodoo traditions, like any of these traditions, there's a lot of work that's put into what I call the three pillars, which is right space, right intention, and right relationship. And that you have to have all three to do this well. So for me, I have a very specific practice grounded in tarot, and I'm like, this is the only way to get to me. If you want to talk to me, then you need to go talk to your daughter and get her to book a session. Nice. And that happened like that. But but sometimes I was in Ireland about three weeks ago, and uh, I was staying with my friend, my girlfriend. She was, we were both in twin beds, and you know, and it was like six in the morning, and someone shouted hello in an Irish accent right in my ear. It woke me up. I look over at her, she's still asleep, she can't do accents to save her life. And I was like, that is not how I work, Missy. Like, like so um sometimes they do that. But for me, um, like with anything, um, boundaries are health. Healthy boundaries allows everything else to blossom. Um, and so, and also knowing my lane, knowing not like knowing like how much it can help and knowing when I I cannot I cannot make this any better. And that doesn't mean that I am not a good healer or I'm not a good attender, and that sometimes we have to let people have their process and take ourselves out of it. Yep. So that's what I would say, but in terms of my process, like I have roving altars of around the house to like ancestors and or particular underworld deities that I work with. So um I do stuff like that. But um, yeah. That is perfect, yeah wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Yeah, I know Louisa has those too. And I do too.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Although now that you say that though, when I hear those voices, I'm always curious. I'm like, who was that? So now I'm like, I'll be like, oh no, no, I'm sleeping. Yeah, you're like, take a number and book a session. I want to be paid for this. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Well, I I gotta start talking to them. Well, well, for me, it's about relationships. So um, I don't bring people through either for myself or clients, unless there's been a some type of relationship or relational tie, like ancestral tie. Because I have found the um uh the sessions are far more clear. Um because when well, I believe is when we leave this plane, we step into no time, we step into no space. Can't wait. Yeah, we're in the eternal now, and the the physics doesn't physics there. And so if I can't locate spirit, right, and I can't put uh a date on the calendar for spirit, the only way we can reliably call is through the tie of love, the tie of relationships.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

So in a session with me, I take each client through uh a very small guided meditation, and it's always to the same place. It's like my place where I do those work. So uh it's actually a stage. It's in an old-timey theater, and the person is standing in the middle of the stage, and then they're in a circle of light, like the spotlight, and then they start calling. So I feel like, you know, what's really happening is between the caller and the spirit who come forth, all I'm doing is I'm just listening in, you know, um and trying to translate um what's what they're producing and what they're creating. Um, and that's the right relationship. So for me, that's my approach. And and you know, the scope of the book does not get into what about poltergeist? What about like this, this, that, and the other, like maybe that's another book.

SPEAKER_03 37:34

I need another book.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

But but this is about the transference of consciousness, it's about the ties of love, it's about it's about honoring what is and um and how to discern it if you want to do this work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

And that book will be coming out a few days after this is posted. Yeah, yeah. So we'll have a link.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Yes. And let me just ask you this though. So is this book primarily for mediumship tarot, or could it be for the norm the common householder?

SPEAKER_02 38:14

It's for everybody. Good. Because it the book itself is written um as a narrative arc. So I reordered the the major arcana. So typically the first major, the one is the magician. In this book, one is death. So you meet death and he talks to you, and um that begins catabasis, the plunge. And so every chapter has you meeting um an underworld person as well as the lesson. What are we here to learn? And then there's a challenge that you must complete before you're given permission to the next gate. So the whole structure of the book is really comprehensive. So the first challenge is I take you on a guided meditation where you encounter yourself right after you've died. And in the meditation, you're sitting on a blanket in a beach looking out into the ocean, and you encounter things. Um you encounter, oh, you feel like you really want to look behind you and you know you shouldn't. And oh, there's a rowboat next to the, oh, I think you need to go to the rowboat. And oh, look, there's somebody walking to meet you who they're gonna help you. Who's that person? So um that's the first one. And then there's uh one called Memento Fati, remember fate, which looks at our own death, but as a way of what am I gonna regret when I die? And how do I, now that I know that, how do I, it's kind of we're giving the ghost of Christmas future treatment, right? So we take you to your um, oh no, I regret that this, I maybe I didn't do this or whatever. Great. Now we're back in the present and you can fix it. And now we can do a reading to see if you fixed it. So we can immediately see if that fix applied.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

I love this. It sounds like a perfect thing, uh the perfect path for a midlife crisis. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Yeah, I know somebody could use that.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

So, so yeah, and then it goes into um it sets up like how to do this safely. So in my system, you choose one media one tarot deck that's a that's only going to be used for mediumship. That's it. And the reason why is if you use your regular tarot deck, it'll start pulling towards mediumship with even when you don't want it to. But you have a second deck, which I call your companion deck. And this is like probably your favorite deck that you love. And then this deck does work to hold the space while you're doing the working. And that's the deck that shows you that the space is clear, or if it's not clear, what do we do about it? So you have two decks, one who's like the space holder and the troubleshooter. And then you have the mediumship deck. So in regular tarot, um, we often see tarot as a tool, right? Like it is allowing us to get information. But in this system, tarot is more like your peer. It is a secondary mediumship companion because you're gonna get things, and also the tarot is gonna get something. So it's really like it changes the relationship with your own deck. Um so then I go into um something called the death date spread. That's the easiest spread. So what we do, you know, because we calculate, we look at um the cause of death and what happened around the death using their actual date of death as the as the as the entry point for that information. Oh interesting.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Yeah, this seems like so much fun. I can't wait.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

I just literally pulled out a deck. I'm like, oh, I have so many decisions.

SPEAKER_02 42:29

Like, huh? Do you want to know? And then there's ones about um how to deepen your own in your own psychic practice. Um, because uh the typical way that we often learn tarot, especially nowadays, is people don't even look at the imagery. They're just like, what's the keyword? What's the keyword? And I'm like, F the keyword, you know, like look at it, look at it, because um the images are going to change in front of your eyes if you if you stop freaking out about the keywords and just look at the images. So I teach, I I again I teach that. Um and then also how we hold grief, how to hold people in their grief, how to be with people in their dying. Um, and also for us, um, how do we work with our ancestors? Like, like knowing that we're also going to be an ancestor, what does that mean for us? And what does that look like for us? So one of the things in the book around that is um, you know, oftentimes we have ancestors that did things that were that caused harm in the world, right? And in my ancestry, I have ancestors that owned slaves. That was hard to, that was hard to to learn, very hard. And while it's not, I didn't do it, I'm not responsible. If I want to work with my ancestors, I can be a part of healing some of the karma that got left. Right. Right. And so, and the ancestors want us to do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:04

I think so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

And once I go, I hope it, you know, something I don't see I'm doing or I think is normal and is harmful. My dear, dearest desire is that a descendant would do some of that work for me. Because, you know, I look at it as we are all just these links on a chain, continuously moving in and out of these different dimensions. And um it's about it's about we don't owe things to each other, but isn't it nicer when we do care about each other? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Well, and not just the corporal body, but also care about the spirit, the story, the magic of this human, right? That's so unusual and unique.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, this has been fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

As usual, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Yeah, yeah. We've had so much fun every time. The last time was great, and this is another great one. So thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Um, I was trying to see if there's anything else we haven't asked you about. But is there more you'd like to share? Yeah, we're going to go.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Yes, share your poem. I promise. So this one um was written um uh for the times that it's hard to keep going. And the call to not keep going feels so comforting. So and I wrote this when I wrote this, I wrote this over the summer. Um light refracts through wave light, golden within summer's lake, still there, still true, still beckoning gentle, simply saying the murk doesn't entrap forever. Light bends unswathed, reaching down, promises oath long before what's determined to keep away. Pressure's deep, also certain, familiar, it fills the ears, rumbling sleep, settling sediment soft, holding hatcheries for seasonal beings. It's so easy to just stay. Colorless, muffled, but oh what misses the redemptive clarity of day. It's still there, still whole, still breaking along Dawn's shoulder, painting waves now washed, gazing upon sky as a lover. Life's whole arc is messy, inglorious, and sometimes the most beautiful, tender, fragile gift saying, simply saying stay.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

Thank you so much for sharing that with us.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

Yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_02 47:11

Thank you for letting me share it.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Simply saying stay. Good one. I'm gonna remember that one. When the when the uh yeah, please do, when the uh when the when that like you mentioned, the guy who shall not be named says anything. Yeah, it's a good time to say stay. Yeah, thank you so much. It's a real pleasure, and like I said, we'll put a link to your book, and um thank you. We will be uh we'll look forward to spending time with you again. Yeah, and so everyone check out check out Jana and her work, and uh thank you again so much.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

Yes, thank you, thank you both. This has been so wonderful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to Charles Heastan, the composer of the original music you are listening to now.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

And of course, thanks to you, our audience, and all of our amazing guests, please come back next week for another great episode. Share this with your friends, family, and community. We hope you will subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, and Substack. Each guest's additional information will be found in the podcast notes. And of course, if you have a good end of life story to share, please reach out. We are always eager to hear from you.