SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to End of Life Conversations Weekly Dispatch. As you may have noticed, there's only two of us here today. Ana Luisa is taking a break for a little bit. And um, so poor Sam and I are gonna do our best to uh to uh hold things up in the meantime, and um we'll miss her, of course, but uh we we'll do all right, I think. Yeah because we enjoy this and we we enjoy the opportunity. So I hope you'll um enjoy it with us. And um, we were thinking today about something that's been top of mind this week. Um, I've seen some of my favorite writers, female writers, um, bemoaning and just being so upset and and enraged, in fact, by the horrors of this Cornell thing. And um, and I feel the same way. I feel very much upset. And part of what upsets me is that that we're upset is because it happens, it's happening everywhere all the time. And it just seems like these things rise rise to the case or rise, raise things up in people that um I totally ag understand and feel, but I wish we had a more of an ad awareness of how this affects our beloved uh female or feminine um uh friends and lovers and beloved and family and community every day, all day, and we really need to be much more aware of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

So yeah, um it is um yeah, it's an endemic systemic thing. Yeah, top, top to bottom, our society protects and in many ways encourages and normalizes these uh behaviors and attitudes. And um, you know, uh as we as we begin this conversation, I'm I'm now feeling the the sensitivity arising of not just wanting to have, you know, yet another hot take in this space. But the importance of of us as uh sort of male presenting or socialized people. I mean, I think you know you identify more more firmly as a as a he, him man, um, which brings a unique perspective to holding other men in in these spaces and to account and in what it means. Um for me, I'm more in the queer realm and uh and recognizing the way I, you know, present and and the way I've been socialized, but maybe don't identify as strongly with man. I feel a responsibility, I think, yeah, to that side, um, which we've talked about some in the past when when these these issues of of manhood, men, and masculinity come up. Yep, definitely. Um, and there's also this sort of like outside, you know, outside perspective or outside feeling from that that world. So just a little precursor, background. I don't know if it's a disclaimer, but just you know, wanting to to speak here and show up with heart and sensitivity and um and space for our imperfections, uh, but also, you know, listening, listening to calls that not just, you know, in these safe spaces where we're preaching to the choir, talking to each other about this, that that it's um it's important to address these things, talk about them and carry it into our world where we um address it and confront it. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

And I I'm glad you're I'm glad you bring that perspective, because I think it's really important to have that too. And that's kind of what I was stumbling along trying to uh note at the beginning is that we're not talking just about females, she, her recon recognizing that there are a wide spectrum of connection to that, to the feminine. Uh in fact, I would say that I have a more of a connection to the feminine than many of the he hymns and always have, you know. But that the sense of, I think what it is that that really impacts me with this is the harm it does to all of us in this culture, um, and harm it's done for generations of of culture in the United States and the Western world, but also many parts of the rest of the world as well, um, that there's this sense that, you know, it's patriarchy, this this thing's this power over that happens so much with men. And it's almost, you know, it almost comes back to something we've talked about when we were talking about um wars or we're talking about uh climate, and we're thinking about the fears that motivate these things. It's such basic fears that come from us from the very, very beginning of our DNA, you know, fears of not being in control. And um, and maybe a recognition by men that we actually are not in any way um, you know, in cold control or empowered without using our strength and our over, you know, our uh power over controls that we've put into the patriarchic patriarch patriarchal uh culture that we live in. Without that, we you know, we we find our real place, which is as servants to the bearers of life, you know.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Um yeah, yeah, that that service mind. Um and just service to life, right? That's it really comes back to service to life and all the processes and life and death and and stuff like that, but service rather than control and domination, um and and denigration. And gosh, there's a whole beehive of different directions and different thought streams in my head. Um, you know, we've been talking in my uh my graduate studies and classes about intersectionality and deconstructing you know white supremacist and and patriarchal systems in all of the places that they show up. And and what you're talking about with the with the control and the fear, um the inimitable amazing uh Sufi scholar Babi Ibrahim Farajage um wrote this amazing essay and an excerpt from that. Um if I could find it really quick, I would just read it. Um that he he talks about um this entire interwoven piece of the dark other, that things that are associated with fertility, the earth, um the the underworld, the the the feminine, the irrational all gets demonized and and cyclically denigrated. Yeah, I think because it is outside of the control of the like small and fearful self. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and and so that then justifies whatever violence done to bring those things to heal for those people who are in that mindset. And and I guess uh the other side of that that's that's buzzing around in my head is is the recognition that we've been talking about around this a little bit that in in many ways I think we maybe look at like a patriarchal system, or it's easy to look at it in the sense that like it is an ongoing co-creative process, which is true. Yeah, it is an ongoing, like like the behaviors that that push patriarchal violence forward are pushed forward by people.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

And also at this point, nobody who is participating, is enacting these behaviors created patriarchy, which is not in any sense or way a justification of those behaviors. Right. But just sometimes that like maybe it's that individuation that we get caught in or something. But like these are these like systems, or in the Greek, uh it, you know, the egregore, the the collective thought form that is patriarchy that that has for generations been bringing people up. You know, they talk about Cornell being a hotbed, being in many ways, primarily a breeding ground for these kinds of behaviors that we see in places of privilege and privileged men and privileged white men doing these behaviors from college, from high school into their careers as business people and politicians.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

The power, the power normalization and things like that. I don't know. That uh thought train went off the rails. So go for it.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

No, but I love that. I mean, really the point I think is is that it really is the sea we swim in. And um and as such, it's it takes a real effort and a real understanding of our responsibility, especially as men, but as everyone, um to really notice and participate in deactivating that that way of being in the world. Um, and and you know, ally allying with those who are harmed by it. Um and being the person who in in that specific situation, the person who walks in and says, hey, stop doing that, you know, that's absurd. That's don't do that anymore. Um, instead of just saying, well, look, everybody's doing it, I guess I'll do it too. Um, which is, you know, the normal unfashion, unfortunately, it can be all too normal for, especially because we are such timid creatures, you know. Um this big manly act that comes up, especially, you know, now we're looking at the I don't even want to reference it, but uh, the government and and some of the people in the government right now who are just putting on this big, huge manly act, you know, and flexing our muscles and doing push-ups and you know, right nonsense. And and that just manifests when we come into a place like that. And we instead of, you know, being actually courageous and actually showing some bravery and strength, uh, and actually being allies and saying, let's not do this, we just fall into, you know, I don't want anybody to know that that I'm not as strong and and powerful as the rest of these people, because then they'll then they'll take advantage of me. And I certainly in my life, you know, having been kind of a more feminine oriented person, um, just just by my you know, gentle, a gentle, thoughtful, kind, um, never and and timid, is be frank with it, timid and afraid um person. I have certainly felt the results of that and and the you know, the way that um I've been bullied and that kind of stuff. And I don't, you know, I'm not not uh by any means comparing what I went through to what what we were talking about, but just as an example that it is the s with the sea we swim in, and it is so much a part of our lives that it really takes a specifically thoughtful and considerate and ongoing breath-by-breath effort to notice it and to stand up against it. And that's our work. I think that's most, you know, for any man especially, um, that's the work we have to do. I had, I had, um, the last time this was in the news was when they discovered that ridiculously horrible, absurd, and uh just disgusting website where I don't know, hundreds or even thousands of men were teaching each other how to rape their partners and film it. And I had not, you know, I kind of I noticed part of myself that I noticed this time too. When those things come up in the news, I just go, yeah, again, you know, it's again, I don't want to read about it. I don't want to participate in even listening to it. And so I tend to, and I did, well, I had actually been on retreat the last time. When I came back after being on retreat, the last thing I wanted to go into was that, you know. But then I started reading some of the responses from my dear friends online um and and talking to Ana Luisa and others and just feeling this sense of, yeah, well, it's again, it's my responsibility. And I wrote this article um that'll put a link to. Also, if we can find a link to um Varhad's um thing that you talk about that you spoke about.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Baba Faraj, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Yeah. Um but mine, it was called What Are We Doing, Man, A Reckoning on Violence and Silence. And I just it was my, you know, kind of like, oh my God, I feel so horrible about this. This is so horrible. What can we do? And um, so I hope that you know, everybody, all of our audience, if you're male or any case, in any case, just being aware of the the horrors that come from this culture, this cultural ignore ignoring ignoring ignorance um around this problem, just can find a way to really pay attention and and do something. Yeah. And I'd love to hear from people about what you are experiencing and maybe some things that you've managed to do. How about you? How's how how's that manifested in your life? Um gosh.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

I guess I would call it like there's a there's an internal awareness. And um before I I launch into that, because it's also like a really vulnerable part of my life experience, I want to acknowledge and thank you for sharing the vulnerable piece about being more sensitive and identifying as a man and how that opens you up to violence. The same, like not the same kind of violence, but a violence from the same root. Right. Um said. And and I found I found the quote, so I'm gonna read that after this because it talks about the the interweaving of these things. But um there regardless of how gendered or androgynous that I'm presenting at any given time, you know, um I am strongly Eastern European descended, and so my facial hair grows fast and grows in thick, and I have five o'clock shadow all the time. And there's a there's a gendered coding there, regardless of anything else. You know, whatever the facial hair features, you know, the body that I inhabit um communicates certain things socially. And so, like growing up around a lot of, you know, feminists who were not shy about talking about their experiences with men, growing up with uh parents who were not shy about sharing their experiences with gendered violence, yeah. Repeated and ongoing gendered violence. Um growing up with uh parental figures who were hyper masculine and and very emasculating when I didn't fall into those similar, you know, this like bullying from from certain men in my life, luckily not all, and luckily not even a majority in my life. Like what a gift. Um there just on that level, there is um an awareness, carrying an awareness of um of being perceived as a potential threat anywhere I go. Oh wow, yeah. Of like how how can I communicate safety? And how do I just accept that that's not it's not no effort I make can fully wipe away the legacy, can fully wipe away that like somebody on the street doesn't know who I am, doesn't know what's in my heart, and has every reason to be wary about me smiling or nodding or saying hey on the street. Yeah. Um and and so I think you know, as you've been alluding to and we've talked to before, and not to not to center, you know, the masculine experience in these things because of the like the level of violence, the level of horror and violation that happens to those who are not masculine coved. Like, you know, um, and I say it that way because like some of the highest rates of um sexual violence happen to transmasculine people. There is there's a whole other like complex around masculinity, emasculation, uh validity around that that gets tied in in that realm. But but that these systems these systems traumatize and violate.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Yeah, yeah, so true.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

And and so I guess like I've been talking around like the the root, which is um just to like air the the dirtiest, vulnerableest laundry I have, is that one of my earliest earliest memories uh as a small child was um having you know being four or five, you know, four years old and curious about oh my gosh, I'm aging and starting to notice uh differences between bodies and socialization and little boys versus little girls, like what is this? What is this going on? Yeah. And at a community gathering, I started asking those questions with oddly adult language, don't ask me where that came from. Um and and was, you know, exploring that conversation, exploring those dynamics with another kid, and um and in that community, when that came to light, it was her. My interpretation and what I've been told from the other adults that were around during that was the parent of that other kid. And some of the other adults in that room were so activated by their own relationship to patriarchal violence that they saw me as a child, or the child me as an adult perpetrator of sexual violence and address the situation as such. Wow. And called the police. Oh my God. Um I had to go through like child counseling. There was, you know, like pressure to have me interviewed by the police by myself without an adult present. Like really, really severe, really serious stuff. And so that's just one of those places where like the cycle of violence comes around.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

And and so, you know, on the shadow side, I carry a lot of fear, anxiety, complex stuff around um the body that I inhabit, but you know, like what my desire or like sexual being is like. And at the same time the conscious side, the conscientious side of that, um carries an even heavier awareness of like the depths of this damage that is done to people.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

To the point where like we lose we lose our souls, we lose our humanity because of the horror of these systems.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Yeah, so true. Yeah, it harms us on so many levels. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

And and to like empathize with what what kind of what kind of horror would it take for somebody to I guess project or um extend that that trauma, that thing to to a kid. And just like as I as I'm speaking to this, I'm also I'm reminded of like the violence against Palestinian children and how and the rhetoric in that conflict, in that genocidal uh ideology uh that is, you know, whatever, you know, militant genocidal Zionism. That every Palestinian child is a future terrorist. Yeah, yeah.

unknown 25:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

And and and you know, uh black children are super predators in the making, and by their very nature are a pre-threat, are uh are a coming threat. And so whatever whatever harm done to them is justified for like future protection.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Yeah, we have a an example of that going on with ice picking up and destroying families uh uh over and over and over and over again all over our country with no responsibility, and you know, leaving children as basically as orphans or families to broken up and and it's just happening all the time. And and I think that's part of what bothers me about this the news around this Cornell thing is it's being treated as an anomaly. You know, um, and it's not an anomaly, it's an everyday, every hour, every minute thing going on around us that's causing harm and destroying people's lives. Um, right here in our free United States, it's gotten worse than ever. And it's all over the world, as you say, you know. So yeah, it's it's a sad uh commentary on the world we live on and the state of this ocean we swim in, that people would be thinking of this as something that's anomalous and that you know that's a big deal because it's it's certainly a big deal, but it's a it's something that's going on all the time. All the time.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

All the time. And yeah, how many of those stories do not get told?

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Yeah, so many. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Yeah, I was listening to to some you know reporting about the Cornell 7 thing and talking about this other this other story that happened. I don't know if it was the same school or somewhere else, and you know, like a football player that that raped someone, you know, was suspended for a year and came back. And it took this this woman like becoming a full public persona and opening herself up to the danger of that, yeah, to be like, I'm expected to like go to school and feel safe on this campus when you've allowed this person back. Yeah um and with the with the website and the drugging, I was listening to a deep dive actually on that just the other day in the wake of this corn of seven stuff. And talking about one, how the the French case that really blew that up the all of the men who who participated in that one incident came from like 40 miles around their house, right? Like they were in their community, they weren't traveling, yeah. You know, so so the how how common that is, you know, posting in a Snapchat group, yeah that you know there's an unconscious person, drug person here for us to to assault as as we please. Come and get it, you know, like how like right. And and then the other part is that you know, like these communities exist and connect and are not dependent on the platforms. You know, there are all of these platforms that that have little controls and uh and exacerbate the problem, you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

But when you shut one down, everybody moves to another one.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yeah, yeah. And goes there. And so I also think about in in response to what you said about back walking down the street, that I'm so often or I've often had this happen where I'm walking in the forest or walking on the street or whatever, and I notice a response from a single woman walking by herself. And I I feel like I want to just shout out, I'm here, I'm here as a protector, you know. I I'm actually going to protect you from that kind of harm. But I know that, you know, it's a there's an acceptance that, yeah, that's just the life, the world we live in is that what nine out of ten women have been assaulted. And so there's no absolutely no reason for me for number one to say anything, but number two, to think that I somehow am going to fix the problem by by, well, the only thing I can do to fix the problem is be that uh person who's there to step up and help if necessary. But um, and to be courageous enough to do so in the face of you know, violence, mascul violence, masculine violence, which I know would could be easily turned toward me. Um, which is not probably not probably not yell at a lone woman woman on the street or no.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Exactly. No, whisper softly. I'm reporting. Whatever you say. Yeah, yeah. No, also weird.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Yeah, that's also weird. Ignore it. Yeah, just kind of basically just be there.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

That's be in your be there, be in your own space. And yeah, whatever. Yeah. Anyway, continue.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

No, that's that was just came up as you were speaking to that. I really haven't experienced that and felt so so, I mean, really, it's it's hard not to be crying right now, just thinking about how bad this is in the world and how much this affects our beloveds. And um I just um I don't know. I wish it were different and I wish there were a way to fix it, and there's not. And that's that's again, that's part of the lesson of um our culture is that you can't fix this stuff. You just gotta be present and be part and participate in the change that needs to happen.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

So you can't fix it like overnight. You can't, yeah. There's no quick fix. There's no quick fix. We can fix it, we can work on it. There's definitely fixing it, and we can't do it.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

And must work on it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Do you want to read that quote?

SPEAKER_01 31:27

I do. I do.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

You know what? Your voice is breaking up like mine was when I was looking at something separate. So I wonder if you could pull it up on your phone maybe and and try it again.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

That's a good idea. That's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Um and in the meantime, since we are kind of coming to the end of the time here, I just want to really emphasize for our audience, especially those of us in male bodies, um, the importance of this work. And um, we will link to the article and we'll link to this article by um Ibrahim Baba. And um, you know, and anything else, we'd really love to hear from you about you what your experiences have been in this way and how you've um experienced it yourself and and how you are working toward a better world. Because we really, this is this is what we're here to do. We're here to make these changes. And yeah, they're not gonna happen overnight, but they are gonna happen each of us one at a time, doing our best every single day and setting that intention every single day that to be of service and to be um uh allies to those who are being harmed in any way.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Querying religious education.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

I remember that one.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Reverend Ibrahim Elias Rajaj Jones. Okay. My use of the idea of interrupting conversations is to look at how theological education has yet to fully acknowledge that race, race, class, gender, sexuality, spirituality are not monolithic distinct categories. Our notions of race and ethnicity must include an understanding of the elements of class, gender, sexualities, geography, spiritualities that go into shaping of notions of race, how race, gender, sexuality, geography, spiritualities go into the shaping of notions of class, how race, class, sexuality, geography are factors and facets of the shaping of gender, how the demonizing of the dark leads to the war against women and their bodies from the Inquisition until the beginning of the dismantling of women's reproductive rights, is connected to the masculinization of the healing industry, to the hardening of Christian religious dogma in northern Europe, to the driving out of the goddess, to the destruction of the earth, to the mass killing of queers of all colors, is connected to the expulsion of the dark other, i.e., the expulsion of Muslims and Jews from Spain, is connected to the African slave trade and the invasions of the Americas, Asia, and Pacific Islands, where indigenous peoples, Africans, and Asians were enslaved and massacred and continue to fuel a fear of brown-skinned immigrants and the brutal murdering of dark-skinned peoples, women, queers, etc., because they were considered to be like women, incarnations of evil, incarnations of unbridled lust. Like women, they were considered to be too connected to the body and to sex. And where the earth was destroyed because, like women, the earth was considered to be wild and needing to be dominated. Like dark-skinned peoples, it needed to be dominated and controlled. This interlocking vortex became reflected in our language, where all that was evil was dark, and vice versa. The dark other was soon not only people with brown skin, but anyone who was other. People living with disabilities, women, queers, etc. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Yeah. Yeah. And uh, you know, he he uh didn't, you know, some of the things he he didn't mention there just totally apply to the the um let's see if I can remember what it was when I was when I was listening to it. Um certainly, you know, I guess I guess just the fact that that as he was saying, this was maybe 10 years ago when he wrote this, I think, or more. Um that at that point, you know, I I what we're seeing, I guess I just want to say that what we're seeing right now with ICE and the work that's happening is just an incredibly uh um vivid and horrible manifestation of exactly what he's talking about, ongoing, continuing to this day. And then these stories that we're talking about today are again um examples, embodiment of those those horrible tendencies that he speaks to. So thank you for that. That's really important. And yeah, we'll put a link to the whole uh lecture in our notes. Yes. Any more you want to say? Are you any more you want to share?

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Um gosh. Feeling vulnerable, feeling um self-conscious about how we've talked about this. Yeah. Um and just want to acknowledge that in stepping into these spaces and speaking of these things and all of the intersecting masterpieces of how we experience these from different places, different positions and and society and ourselves. And um, thank you for listening. Thank you, Akil, for uh having this chat.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Yeah. Um yeah, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I I totally want to acknowledge that as well, that we come from a place of privilege, kind of uh myself especially the the top of that privileged pyramid. And there's some legitimate things to say, just who are you to talk about this, even you know. Um, and I guess my only, you know, I I I do feel a sense of wanting to apologize for that and apologize for not doing enough. Um, and yet um this is part of my trying to do more, is to um to be willing to speak this into the the world, into the into the uh cyber world, and hopefully uh maybe maybe encourage a few more people to work on this with us. So um, but yeah, I thank you for making that point. I think that's important. So thank you everyone for paying attention, for listening. Keep doing the work, keep breathing. Set the intention every day to do a better, do it, make it a little bit better for anybody you can and to be courageous enough to do the work. So thank you, Sam. Appreciate you very much. See you next time. Adios.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

Adios.