SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back, everybody, to our weekly dispatch on the end of life conversations with Sam and I doing our best today again. We were just talking about uh some of the unusual places that we can carry out our mission. You know, we and many of the people on the podcast really feel called to opening up the dialogue, you know, about end of life and about just some of the tough things that people don't like to talk about. And um, so with that mission in mind and with that hope, we started thinking about some of the unusual places that we've been doing that, or that other that we've done it in the past and that we've maybe we'll begin to do it more.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

And what places that uh uh other places that we've heard people doing that as well.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Yeah. You're just talking about your the chaplain that came and visited. What tell me about the last time?

SPEAKER_03 0:53

Yeah. So I this was maybe one of the people who's most dedicated to the most unconventional spaces of um of spiritual service and pastoral care. Um his like primary, I wish I remembered his name. I've got it somewhere. Um his primary sort of like job is working with the San Francisco Knight Ministry, um, which is uh really focused on on street care, street chaplaincy for homeless folks. But he told a story about just like running into a guy at a convenience outside a convenience store who who was like, What what are you doing here? You know, he's in his pastoral collar in the middle of the night at uh 7-Eleven. Yeah and and the guy's like, What are you doing here? And he's like, Well, we're just here to be available. And the guy like opened up about his divorce and his struggle and you know, was like crying in this parking lot until his friend came out and then he buttoned it up and moved along. And and so that was really amazing. But this guy also does uh does ministry mentioned doing it at bars, go to go to bars and and offer that. Um, also like kink spaces and queer spaces, like going to pride and hosting events, going there's like a he's talking about some like weather event that was like very like spiritually oriented. Sure, yeah. Um, you know, offering a temple for pastoral care at Burning Man. Um great. And and yeah, all all over the place.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Um you'll have to invite him to your Fire on the Mountain, you know.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Or or better yet, you can be the minister there. You can be the chaplain at the Fire in the Mountain next day. There you go.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Let's see if I can find his name while you go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yeah, so I've been thinking about alternatives too. And so one of the things we did with our um Grace Pathways nonprofit this last season during the summer, spring, summer, and fall was uh go to farmers markets and we set up a booth. And the booth just says, come tell us your story. You know, we've got a little bulletin board up there, and we invite people to write a six-word story about what they're grieving or you know, what's going on with them, what loss they've suffered and dealt dealt with, and then just had you know um information there about end-of-life care and um resources and the um our classes that we do. Uh so it was and and it's just been so profound to um open up a space for that in these unusual spots. You know, I mean, when I when I first started talking to the people who run these um farmers markets, they were all every single one of them went, uh, no, I don't think so. You know, that doesn't sound like something anybody wants to do. But you know, it's a nonprofit. So, and so they, because it was a nonprofit, they were willing to listen. And the very first one that I went to, I love this because it's a perfect example. Um, we set it up and we uh had the the woman who I'd been talking to, who had been very cynical about the whole thing, kept bringing people by to talk to us, you know. And then at the end, she came up and said, I just want to apologize for being cynical about this because this is the best thing we've ever done.

unknown 4:21

You know.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

And so, you know, it wasn't like a huge crowd. Of course, there's a lot of people who took one look at, you know, our signs and run ran the other way, you know, um, or just wanted nothing to do with it. But, you know, just it didn't have to be a lot. It was enough, you know, to just have a few people stop by and really be able to share and be emotional and share their tears and share their stories. And wow, I mean, it really lifted my heart to to be in that space. And so yeah, I love the bar idea. Um in fact, one of the offerings that we're gonna do would be is to uh we just talked about doing this as uh happy hour for sad people. And I'm gonna be I'm I talked to a place that I go like to go, a little cafe bar over in North Gate area in Seattle, kind of central to the north end, and and they were like, that would be cool. Yeah, we should do that. So let's try to set that up.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

Yeah, I mean, because so many people, I mean, we can have conversation about uh alcohol as a the the character, the personality of alcohol as a as a mind-altering substance, and how at certain points and for certain people, it really unlocks the the depression, the sadness and can cause it to pour itself out. And a lot of times in a bar sitting, you know, you've got your sad drunks or you know, people who don't know how to deal with it and then they're all uninhibited and and it comes out as anger or or whatever. But to do that in a you know with a container, with an intentional container in that setting, I would be curious to hear how that how that goes and whether it gets out of control.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Yeah, well, the person that introduced me to the idea when she told me about it, her name's Tamara and she lives here in West Seattle. Um, we took a walk the other day and she told me about it, and I asked the same questions. I said, Does that ever get strange or weird, or do people not show up? And she said, No, we get people every single week. She does it every week. So we get people every single week, anywhere from five to ten, you know, 10 or 12 people. And and if there's too many people, we split up into a couple things. And we, you know, we aren't starting out with this, it's not like a death cafe thing where we got to talk about death. It's like, let's just get together in a community group and just share whatever's going on in our hearts, you know. And they introduce each other first and then they just talk about whatever's going on. And you can share about your loss and your grief, but you don't have to, and there's no pressure. And the only she said the only thing that they require is that you get a drink. It doesn't have to be alcoholic, but you get you know, because you're the host is, you know, you want to, you know, be respectful of your hosts, you know. Right, right. But that's you know, even that, you know, it's like, you know, if you can't afford it, don't worry about it, we'll buy you something, you know, buy you a coke or whatever, you know. Yeah. But um I I just love the the idea. And I was sort of surprised, like you, you know, like you're talking about. I don't necessarily think alcohol's the best way to get people to talk about these things, you know. Uh could and it's maybe could be detrimental in times. But so, you know, we were talking about earlier that the bartenders, you know, are known to be the the counselors, right? But they are they're there just to calm things down and keep things calm and help you feel better, you know.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

Right. They're not necessarily gonna engage with you on grief or loss, you know, in in the in the same way. Yeah, and that as you were talking about that, that's really kind of beautiful that there isn't expectation beyond just like the the common understanding that we're all sad. Like it's happy hour for sad people, so we are all sad about something. Yeah, and that is the open door exactly that allows people in. That's that's pretty cool. I like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

I know Luisa talks about all the times that she's just walking down the street, walking her dogs or in the park or whatever, and of course being Ana Luisa, that's and and similar, you know. We we we're all kind of addicted or and affected by that need or that willingness and that, like said earlier, mission, you know, to bring these things up and normalize these conversations. That's what we were doing, you know. Um, and so it's she talks about often these encounters that she has with people. And um, I know the one that I liked was the one where she some guy she told somebody what she does, and and he kind of backed away. He said, I don't like to talk about death, I don't like to even think about death. And she said, Well, you know, it's the autumn right now, and you can kind of look around, you know, everywhere. That leaves leaves are dying. Look, there's a there's a dead duck over there, you know. It's kind of all around you, you know. Right. Right. So, you know, I think that's again, it's just uh I guess what it really comes down to is if this is our mission and if we feel this calling, which probably most of us here, most of us in our audience, are that's why you're here, I assume, or maybe that you're just thinking about it and wondering about it. Um, if you take that on as a mission, as an important thing to share and to help people with, um, it it can happen anywhere. And the most unusual places um are sometimes the best places. Um yeah, sitting in a bus.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

You know, yeah, even if it's even if it is just casual, you know, it doesn't have to be your like big mission, but if it's something that you see value in, um, to have hard conversations about emotionally vulnerable things and how to how to step into those spaces more. Yeah, just like meeting people where they are and where you are and when you're encountering them. That's you know, optimal or not. People people go to bars to socialize, and there is a lot of of culture around socializing and vulnerability uh in tandem with alcohol, you know. And so like meeting people where they are, meeting, you know, maybe that's where you go, maybe it's around a campfire with your friends, maybe it's you know, who knows, a dog uh in the dog park. I remember also as you were uh recounting that story from Onaloosa, and I think I I I am reminded when she tells that story too, um, of of walking walking my friend's dogs in uh in the park a year, year and a half ago, and and there was this guy there, and we were just you know, dog park small talk. And he was like, man, how about all this shit going on in the world? And and a bunch of people kind of went, you know, like you know, don't talk about religion or politics at the dog park. But but we started talking about it, and at the end I I I told him, I was like, I really appreciate that you brought this up here in this space because so there's so much impetus or temptation to just act like everything's normal. Yeah, yeah, to just push it by the wayside, and it's so much easier, and we don't want to make other people uncomfortable. But I really appreciate that you brought that conversation into this space so that we could all sort of like share because it wasn't just me who who actually engaged with him, and there was a little group that that was talking about how we were experiencing the you know, the rising fascism, you know, or whatever was going on, yeah, and how we were struggling to like keep going and and the pressure of like normalcy and all of that. And it was so such a powerful experience. So like, you know, be willing to not be invited back to those dinner parties.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Yeah, and and it's also a way for us to um really exercise um our allyship with each other and with the earth to, you know, to uh really think seriously about, okay, we are all feeling this, and what does that mean as far as what we uh how we act in the world uh and how we behave. Um and I there's also a thought that, you know, I I always uh you know, when Ana Lisa is in Tyr, I always try to think of, you know, what what how does this affect people? How does this affect women? How does it affect people, people of color? And um, and I know that there's this that it's a different thing I can't possibly understand, but it's a different um, there's a different level of uh vulnerability um to to reaching out and to um receiving, you know, if I I would hesitate probably to just walk up to a woman I don't know and start a conversation um without, you know, I don't know, without some small talk or with some kind of some kind of reason, maybe the dog or whatever. But just because you know I recognize how much fear and you know legitimate fear there is of men, um, and uh especially old white men, um that you know, I just I don't don't want to um I don't want to put anybody I don't want to threaten anybody or you know cause any harm. So it would have to be really gentle, but at the same and it also has to be thought about my own safety too, you know, because some people you get a conversation in and they will be very angry and that and then and then what do you do? You know, then you have to find a way to get away, get away calmly and gently and and not uh not end up fighting with each other, you know. And and that comes down to your own, you know, uh discernment. Yeah, discernment and courage and uh yeah, and and willingness to end the conversation if it should just be ended. And that's sometimes hard to do too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:04

Um if it's not dangerous, sometimes it's just like you tap into some activation and you don't have the capacity to hold all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Psychotherapists, right? Yeah, and it's probably not appropriate to say go see your psychotherapist.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:22

And hard to and hard to say in those moments, like, whoa, like this has gone out of my depth, and I need to like step away. We don't have the like social norms to hold space for that, I think, in a compassionate way in a lot of spaces. Can it can be hard to hear that or hard to say that, or it's not safe to to express those things like, oh, I've hit my limit. Sorry, bye-bye. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

But you know, that is something we could share with the audiences like how do you extract yourself from something that feels feels like it's gone around the corner and that your discernment is saying this is either not emotionally, physically, whatever, safe. And I think, you know, there's a lot of different things I've learned in um uh, you know, different courses and stuff about you know being in communication and being an ally and that kind of thing. And and it really uh some of the best ideas I've heard is just to, you know, basically just say, oh wow, it sounds like this is really this is really uh upsetting you, or you know, and um and you know, if I'm willing to hear more, but it feels like maybe we should just let this go right now and and I'm just gonna walk away, you know, um, or you know, just let it go, let it go. And uh and not try to engage, not try to be a psychotherapist when you're not. And and and be really thoughtful about what you're saying. And and part of what people I think what I've what I've experienced with people who are really angry is it can calm them down if you just reflect back that you're your compassion, you know, and that, yeah, I hear you. This is really upsetting, it upsets me too, or it's you know, um, so that they don't feel like they have to keep pounding on you, you know, um, rather than trying to say, you know, that that's a really fucked up way of thinking. Oh, right.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

Not not an effective way to de-escalate a situation.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Yeah, yeah. There's some great courses out there of de-escalation courses that I'd recommend for people because you can't we run into these things in the world, especially if you're willing to be vulnerable and start these conversations.

SPEAKER_03 16:23

So that's a really good point, and I appreciate that you brought brought that up. Um, and uh wanting to like offer offer those those practical solutions and and skills for navigating uh navigating those situations and yeah, like um affirming, affirming people's feelings and their experience. You don't have to validate them, but just affirming the emotional uh state the the emotional response, what we're what we're seeing, what we're experiencing, and and saying, yeah, like this is this is too big, this is uh too big for me to hold. Like I hear it and it's big. And you know, maybe yeah, it's not it's not going anywhere. Uh is there something else that we can talk about? Yeah. I hope, you know, hoping for the best, hoping that, you know. Yeah. Say I hope that I hope that you find a way some peace around this. And and I can't offer you that right now.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Yeah. I mean, uh, you know, it's always that joke, oh yeah, what about the seahawks? What about those seahawks, you know? Yeah, yeah. Or the weather or whatever. I don't follow sports very much, so that's not a good one for me. But yeah. But I could go, hey, what about that beautiful boat out there? Redirecting, redirecting the the attention.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

So anyway, we just thought that would be something to talk about today, and we um would love to hear your feedback and your thoughts. Um anything else, Sam, about unusual. You can think of other unusual places that this has come up.

SPEAKER_03 18:07

Um Yeah, you you mentioned uh like your booth at the at the farmer's market and and offer offering a space for people to write the the six-word thing about their grief. I love that format. I just learned and experienced that um in in one of my classes, and it really helped helps you make things concise.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

Sometimes you can go on and on and on. And uh it it reminded me of when I was working at uh general store at the Fire in the Mountains festival this summer. And we we decided that we wanted some wanted like build community and and get some more engagement and make it a community space. And so we put out uh big pieces of cardboard and wrote, you know, what lights your fire and what are you grateful for today, and asked people to write that down, and that stayed out the whole weekend um and and it got people engaged, and and that was really really sweet. So that's another unconventional place. I experienced it a lot when I worked retail, you know, being a cashier and trying to interact with people on a human level um really um it can open up things. Yeah, it can open open up things if you've got if you've got a little bit of time.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Yeah, yeah. And and it's and people so I think you know, in this world where we're always rush, rush, rush, um, you know, it's such a it's such a gift to be able to spend, you know, a few more minutes just because if you want to just to connect on a human level. It reminded me of one that uh Nate had done, my son Nate, uh, when he lived in New York for a little while, going to a school there for a little while. He um he took a card piece of cardboard and wrote on it, um, come tell me your story. You can tell me anything. And he went out to like Union Square, you know, one of these places in New York City, and just sat down there. And he said he had the most fascinating conversations with people. They just would, you know, walk up and sit down and and just, you know, I'll listen. I'll I'm here to listen. Um and I love that. I mean, that's kind of our work as spiritual directors or spiritual companions and chaplains, you know, as we we learn one of the big lessons, one of the main things you learn is just how to sit and listen carefully and compassionately and not try to fix anything and not try to uh you know calm people down necessarily. Just let them be who they are, you know, and and uh you're not uh it's not your job really to do anything else, but to just be present. And you know, if they ask for something, you can give them whatever wisdom you might have. Um my my most common wisdom is I don't know anything. So let's figure it out together, you know. Um so yeah, I like I love that. And just again, you know, just in your own work as uh audience here, just think about what ways have you done that and what ways could you do that that would be of benefit to your community and and to the people that you see walking down the street and that you meet and and uh social j social in things. Um yeah, social justice work often sitting around doing making signs or marching or singing, whatever. It just um those are places where you can connect with people sometimes that that are just worried, upset, and just need to talk, just need to have somebody listen to them.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

So yeah, make a sign and take it anywhere. That's what a great, what a great thing that we can just do that.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Yeah. And if you have stories about how you engage, please come to our sub stack and talk to us about it. And like, subscribe, and do all the things and join us next time. Yeah, tell all your friends join us next time. All right, we'll see you next time. Adios, adios.