SPEAKER_04 0:00

Welcome everybody to this weekly dispatch from the End of Life Conversations. We are, as usual, excited to talk about stuff with you and share stuff with you all. And um, we read a I read it and passed around. We all read an article by Katherine Durkin. I'm going to tell you all about her right now because I want you to go see her stuff. Her name is uh Katherine Durkin Robinson, and she has a substack, Substack, which we will link to, uh, called A Death Doula's Substack. And she wrote this really great article that's basically the title is We Are Not Children Twice. And really making the point that uh there's this, there's this kind of statement that, you know, you're your child, you're dependent when you're a child, and you're dependent when you're an elder the same way as you are as a child, and really noticing that that how that can be condescending and how it's um really different. It's a different thing. And so we're not actually children when we get old and when we need help. Um and I just loved her perspective on it. And uh what did you think?

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Um yeah, I really I really like that uh recontextualization, and I also really liked what Annalouiza chimed in with, yeah, uh, which is at the forefront of my mind as we start, which is that the childhood side of dependence is also more complicated and full of more wisdom than we give credit for. So in this twice a child, and I think um Catherine talks about this in her in her article or in her essay, that we have this demonization or this discomfort with dependence, yeah. And it's a very loaded um and interdependence. And so and and that being dependent makes you lesser, makes you useless. Your experience, your knowledge, your wisdom is not valuable. And so and so I think both elders and kids carry a lot of wisdom. Yeah, I mean, what the the phrase from the mouth of babes, right? Is is there as a cliche for a reason. Yeah. Um and and there's a new interesting uh uh world of agency-oriented parenting, yeah, um, and trusting your kids, and at the same time, I think that can go too far. I mean, as anything can, but but there is a guidance piece, yeah, and and while I d I think that infantilizing elders is also um you know not the way to go about it, there are areas where the discomfort, the denial about aging and the process of aging can lead us and lead our elders to hard decisions and and places where they're not making safe decisions for themselves. Yeah, yeah. And so I think that's where that parallel comes in. Yeah. You know, sometimes you have to take the keys away, and the parent really doesn't want that, right? And really struggles with that loss of agency, independence, and mobility. Yeah. Um or you know, gosh, I had a I had an experience just last month where um when I'm down in California, I'm staying with my mom, and she lives three, two houses away from her dad, who's 95, and he tipped over and cracked his head on the gar garage floor, and there was blood all over the place, and he's laying there. And my mom, who is an elder care uh specialist, uh fitness and and mobility specialist, his uh my aunt, who was a nurse, and one of the neighbors who was a former EMT, all said, you need to go to the hospital. Yeah. And he would not. Yeah. And there's nothing you can do about that. Yeah. Um and that maybe goes into a different conversation around agency around death and dying, because you say, if I don't wake up tomorrow, okay. So I'm good about it. Yeah. I'm good, whatever. I'm 95, it's fine. It's fine. Um, which is another another part of that agency, and and how do we navigate that? And that is different than maybe maybe uh caring for a child. So those are my initial thoughts.

SPEAKER_04 5:12

Yeah, yeah. A couple of things you said are really um I thought were really important. And one was uh that there is that sense, and and as you know, your let's see, that'd be your grandfather um uh was you know dealing with is that sense of loss. And um, you know, I do not want to lose that part of myself. I do not want to lose that independence. And again, it's it's so cultural, you know, and it we're even seeing it rear its ugly head in in our political world these days, where you know, the the most powerful uh people and the strongest people, um, they're they're the winners, they're the owners, you know, the people with the most money win, you know. And that they're so that's because they're so dependent independent and they have lifted themselves into this independent state, even though most of them haven't, but haven't lifted themselves. But but the the point, you know, that that I love too is that you know, we are, and that she makes in this article is that we are always dependent on each other. And and actually acknowledging that and being capable of and and this really does relate to loss and grief and death and dying, and the fact that we um because of the culture, I think mostly, we we really grieve when we can't be in uh depend independent. And so um we hesitate to admit our dependence. Uh, and yet we're all dependent. We're dependent on um the infrastructure to stay there and the lights to come on and and you know, working with people and like I was this nonprofit, and I will not be able to do it unless I have enough people to help me, you know. And and I'm dependent on a lot of things to to make that happen. And and the podcast, a great example. I totally depend on Sam to do the editing. Um anyway, it's just example after example after example that just negates or not negates, but just argues against that that there's some um you know, honor or some uh better better way to be the be to be independent of everything. We aren't. We never will be and we can't be. Um another thing, you know, this this actually I gotta tell one story too about that because it cracks me up whenever I think of it. Um Wendy's sister and she were sitting with her mother when her mother was in her 80s or something like that. And her mother was commenting on another friend of hers that was older and was, you know, kind of showing the age. And her mom says to them, Um, you know, if I ever get to that point, I want you to take away my keys. And Wendy's sister didn't skip a beat. She stood up and said, Give me your keys, mom.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

Yeah, yeah, there we go.

SPEAKER_04 8:00

Um, yeah, so so though, and those times arrive. And I think recognition of the fact that that it's difficult and that people will mourn that. I mean, again, we always talk about ritualizing our mourning, right? Right. Ritualize that in a way could be very helpful. Um and and also just thinking about those words, as Ana Louisa never never fails to remind us. Words are very important and the way we speak and how we say things, and we have to think about how things are loaded, like the the word you are a child, you know, you're infant, like you said, infantile infantilizing. Is that the word infantilizing? Um uh elders is is just very demeaning. And they and you may say it in all loving care, and yet they might and yet they may very well feel like, hey, I'm still here, you know. I have I have I have stories to tell, I have really bad jokes to share. And you know, and and just saying, you know, we're we're gonna take care of you. And and the other part of that is it's really hard to allow people to take care of you.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Right. So uh especially after a full life, as you were saying, the the culture of independence and how that is the the pinnacle of achievement is to be a fully, fully independent quote unquote person, um, however mythologized that is, and and and however untrue that is at its core, there is that perception. And there are are certain behaviors that are and and abilities that are are indicators of that. Yeah. And so I think yeah, and so I think this is an especially poignant issue for the current generation that is aging and dying. Yeah. Because of the how internalized that that independence has been. I think about my grandparents all the time when when thinking about this stuff. You know, how much how much it takes for my grandfather to ask for help buckling his seatbelt in the car and how long he'll struggle to do it before he asks for help. But how it's also my job sitting there to wait, to wait for him to do that. Um and I love in this article too, she she talks about that that you know uh navigating where those assistances are can be a really good way to soften that. Um, you know, like I can button my coat okay, but I need help putting my shoes on. Yeah, you know, yeah, and and so acknowledging the agency and acknowledging where stuff is hard still, but but can be done. And um I really like the the idea of of ritualizing these these shifts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:02

Yeah, like noticing it. I think that's in a way what you're doing is you're honoring them in a in a even bigger way by just noticing that, yeah, this is probably uh feeling like a loss to you. And uh, we understand that, and we definitely will go through it in our lives as well. And uh maybe have. And the other, you know, that just occurred to me is that this also relates to our way of treating people who aren't able to do, you know, do what they need to do. And you know, as as you know, walking through the world, um, if you see somebody who is having trouble getting on the bus, you know, or um and and offering, not not not grabbing them and throwing them on the bus, right? But being willing to say, hey, can I help in some way? Or asking. Asking even more than offering. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. How how can I help you if I or can I help you, or do you want help? Yeah. Um, and that's uh especially true, I think, sometimes with disabled people, because we kind of we make assumptions maybe, um, and we uh and they could be totally wrong and and insulting even. So, you know, as people are getting toward the end of life, or if they're in some way not the the uh you know picture of independence, which again none of us are, but um it's it's just such an opportunity for us to be um thoughtful, compassionate, kind, and to allow them their own agency. Yeah, uh I loved what she said. I I'll just want to talk about this one piece because she also talks about how it this is something for all of us to think about how do we uh accept support? Um you know, with this culture, we tend to go, yeah, no, I got this, right? Um and and instead of you know, instead of acknowledging that we we do need support, and she says it's actually a skill that we need to hone to be able to um receive help. Um so she uh offers some words that we could trade change, like instead of saying giving up, say choose. Um, you know, I I want to I choose to do, I choose whatever. Um I'm not giving up, but right now I can do this and I can't do that. And um, you know, talk about what you need and also what you don't need, and be willing to be upfront about that. And and as helpers, as um caregivers, be conscious of that and say, you know, what what do you really need, what don't you need, and make sure that they're that they know that they um that they have that agency to to tell you. And then last thing I really loved that she, well, two things she says talking about grief, which we sort of said that, um, which I think is really important, but also keep giving as a as a person, an elder or somebody else. There are always things you can do. There are always things that you can use, that you can support people with, that you can show that you're not only not uh completely dependent, but you have things to share. You can still volunteer somewhere, you can still, you know, go sit at the front of the store and say hi to people as they walk in. Or there's all sorts of things that you can do um as as you get older, um, and you know, until it gets to the very end. Um and and so it just really be aware of that as well. And as caregivers, being aware of that, encouraging people to uh say, you know, what could we do today that you that you would that you would love to share? What would you like to do?

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Yeah, yeah, inviting people in. I really, I really love that. Because the other, you know, the other part of aging in this culture is is the isolation and and shunting away of the non-productive members of our society. And and so the um to invite in that that engagement is is really uh I think a really key part of healing that intergenerational wound in a lot of ways and build those connections. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:07

Yeah, that's a great thing to think about having, you know, if if if you are a young person listening to this, um, finding ways to share this at these ideas with your friends and your colleagues and the people your peers, um, and maybe even finding um opportunities to volunteer, to go visit with people, um, to meet with people um and that are older and that maybe could use the support and and going into it with that humility and compassion, not trying to fix anything, but but being willing to offer your uh service and offer them agency and offer them um you know dignity. And so uh that's a really wonderful gift that you can give to um to the folks that are getting older like me. Um thankfully, you know, well, I'm I mean, I'm I certainly have ways that I could that I enjoy having people help. Um and so yeah, I just I I guess I'm not uh for some, you know, for whatever practices I've done in my past or wherever, whatever way I've worked and things, I did I feel humble enough to be willing. I think I have those coping skills to cope with, yeah, I need help. Uh but I don't know, you know, it hasn't really come down to much to a lot of needs so far. Right. Knock on wood, inshallah. Um but um but as it does, and it certainly is beginning to, uh, and as I witness, you know, my spouse and others, um, it's just a really great lesson for us to consider over and over and over again. And uh so yeah, what do you think about? Let's let's talk uh about you know what would a ritual look like? What would uh what would be a good ritual for somebody who um say for your grandpa, can you think of a ritual that he would be willing to participate in and that might um might help him to be in more acceptance, or maybe somebody else if he's if he's it might be hard right now.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

There are some people who are so deep in it.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

That that uh a ritual that no matter what language you use, you're gonna touch, you're gonna touch into that insecurity. Yeah. And and and loss, and a lot of people don't have the skills, don't have the skills to face and engage with that.

SPEAKER_04 17:31

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

And are um I won't say it as a I don't want to make a j a general gener oh generational generalization. Whoa, that is fast. Um but but the difference in one sort of like emotional intelligence building and and hardening of identity and hardening of of self-perception, I think is different, is different with you know older, older generations. Um there is this perception of can't teach an old dog new tricks, or I'm unwilling to like shift and change at this point. I'm just I'm me, I'm how I am, just leave me alone until I die. Let me be until I'm dead. Um but yeah, rituals for others who may be more open to it. Not my stubborn ass grandpa. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 18:37

I was thinking about your mom, you know. Um your mom was very much a person that would be open to that, I think. Um and also there's the one piece before we get into that is that just acknowledging that to somebody that it is a loss is is a step beyond what we normally would do. You know. Um and that's a and even if we can't get a ritual going. But yeah, I did think about your mom. Your mom's had some health issues.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:04

And um, and there's been some loss, you know, in in her abilities to be her full vibrant self that she's been all her life. Um and she probably would be more open to something like that. So probably so, yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

Yeah, yeah. So so I think as you bring that up, I I think about her and so a big part, I think, starting with gratitude, you know, starting with gratitude for how long you've been a you were able to do those things. Yeah. For her, it's it's a lot of like joint stuff and mobility. And so like thanking if your hands are getting arthritic and you can't if you don't have the dexterity that you used to, you know. Yeah uh uh talking to your hands, talking to your joints and saying thank you for all these years and and and what amazing adventures we've had. What like all the you know, all the drums we played, or all you know, a lifetime spent playing music or creating things or typing on a keyboard, whatever it is, cooking, you know, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. And and then going through that that grief of like you know, as my mom talks about it, because she's been doing a lot of grief work with this health shift, is you know, these parts of us uh are dying sometimes. Yeah, and so to do have funerals, have wakes for these parts of ourselves that that don't exist anymore. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:51

Yeah. It's like the memorial services that we do for our beloveds when they are gone. Um just yeah, doing that on a regular basis as we get older for the losses we've had, um, and and ritualizing it to the extent we're that we're really are remembering and learning and remembering and acknowledging the gratitude and the lessons and and the wonderful things. Yeah, she was a your mom was uh my drum teacher for many years, you know. She's an incredible musician, and um, and I'm sure that must feel really hard. Um so I love that. I think that's you know, and I hope your mom doesn't mind us uh using her as an example. She's one of our biggest fans. So we thank her, you know, again, thank you for that. And um, but I I you know I'm thinking about what else, you know, what other ways we could do that with people that aren't necessarily our um close loved ones. Those that would be maybe the easier ones because we can know them so well and and they're more willing to listen to us. But in our work, as we're working with the end of life and we're working with people in hospice and Um that I think that might be a really um a really beautiful thing to to work with and to think about when we're working with folks and just to ask about as part of your being with them and asking for their stories, ask them to talk to you about what they are mourning or what they lot, what what parts of themselves they for they are missing that they wish they, you know, that they really wish they could still do or they wish that they they would they really enjoy doing and can't do anymore. Um and as you're saying, you know, do you need do you need help with um put getting your pills that you need today? Um that could be an opportunity to say, well, yeah, I bet you really miss being able to do that by yourself. So um again, you know, we just I think it's important for us to, as caregivers, as anyone in our audience who's dealing with um their own end-of-life things with their families or with their beloveds um or themselves, just to be really aware of that, that and every other kinds of loss and uh grief that people are going through and ask about it and be willing to hear, listen, and and be willing to offer, um, maybe offer some ritual, um, some ways to acknowledge it and some ways to um celebrate, even that wow, that was pretty cool that I could that I could climb rocks. I had some really amazing adventures climbing rocks, yeah. Um I'm never gonna do that again.

SPEAKER_02 23:34

Yeah, yeah, and the grieving around that. And yeah, um gosh, as you're talking about this, there are a couple threads that came up. Um one being I uh as you were talking about like doing it in our work rather than just with with our close friends and family, was like, okay, so I've reached out to my local senior center to facilitate some sort of some sort of aging aging ritual, some or some sort of you know, uh aging and loss, you know, thing, event. And so we've got a room full of people sitting probably in a circle, and what do we do? And and just in that space, thinking about sharing those stories too, like just in a group setting. Yeah. And and then that extended to you know, grief rituals that that I've heard about um the the now controversial uh Francis Weller in the book Wild Edge of Sorrow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:53

Um great writing the bad person or someone who's like all of us fault. Uh not perfect, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Um anyway, the the ritual that uh grief ritual that that he puts forth and that I've done in some of my grief counseling training is the the pebble um the pebble ritual, where you know, you pour those grief and that loss and those stories into your pebble and you put it into a into a bowl of water that represents, you know, the tears of that loss and all of that, and then and then you go off and and do something with with those, you know, water a tree and put the stones in the river or whatever that is. And so things like that, you know, to to um sacrilize, sanctify these uh these stories and and make them meaningful. Um I love that.

SPEAKER_04 26:01

That's great. I love um, you know, it would actually even be possibly it could be um uh a way to introduce the idea of planning, which we always are talking about. Um so when we're when you're done, okay that this has been really important to us. I'm glad we had this opportunity to to share with each other. I love the idea of a circle of elders or even a circle of anybody for that matter. Um just being able to say these are the things that I've lost that I um I want to grieve and I want to acknowledge. Um and and then at the very uh not at the very end, but then at the end say, okay, well, everybody's gonna end up here. Do we have something in place? How are you gonna support your loved ones in this in that time? Um and what have we done around that? So I don't know. That I just that's one of the the uh things I want to do with the nonprofit is get circles together to talk about um the uh yeah, talk about planning. But it and maybe those are two separate things. It could be two separate things. Um but yeah, I think that the uh that and uh just the idea of um or may you know maybe they can be uh related to each other, but um I think just the idea of getting any group together if you could. We're talking about one of the other things the nonprofits just starting working on is um a happy hour for sad people. And um that would be an opportunity too, to just you know be in a group, having a drink, um, sitting down and and uh and drinking whatever you drink, um could be water. But just in a group that came together for that purpose, to acknowledge that we have sorrow, that there's reasons to be sad, and um, and we can choose to share that if we want, and we don't have to. But if someone does choose to share it, to offer some kind of ritual to to say, well, you know, if you want, we could put we could uh paint a rock, put it in a garden or whatever that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

So or at happy hour for sad people, you just you toast, you toast that part. You know, um yeah, I love that. You could do that, you could do happy hour for sad people anywhere in that way. Absolutely. You could do it in a nursing home, you could you know maybe preschool would be hard. Everybody's got their juice boxes. Yeah, there's juice boxes.

SPEAKER_03 28:32

Everybody take your juice box. What do you wish you could have done when you were one and a half?

SPEAKER_02 28:39

Start them early. Um I love there's uh one one last sort of piece coming up around that importance of language that you were talking about. And I encounter it periodically, most recently, I think in writings of uh Baba Ibrahim Faraj, about um that we are all temporarily able-bodied and really like using that often in conversation, you know, temporar, not you know, saying temporarily able-bodied people. Yeah, I love that. And and that really, you know, normalizes yeah, normalizes that it's not always gonna be this way. Yeah, and and brings in and incorporates um those who are currently not able-bodied as well. Yeah, and and breaks down those boundaries that we could set up. I love that. That's so true. And the other thought was when you were talking about these loss circles of it not just being old folks, not just being elders who are going through end-of-life loss. Yeah. But that also breaks down boundaries if you can motivate younger people to go to the senior center and have one of these things, or you know, wherever it is. Yeah. But to all recognize that we're we're losing things, that we all have lost and that, you know, um it's part of what we live, how we live. Yeah, it's life. Yeah. Life is loss. Life, loss is life. No matter where you are in it. Yeah. Yeah. Anything else on your end?

SPEAKER_04 30:22

No, I think I really appreciate this chance to talk about this with you. Um, it really made an impact on me this week. And and I love what you reminded me about um Ibrahim's words. I I remember that too from the seminary, that it's so important for us to realize that as much as we may be able-bodied, able to do things uh independent, quote unquote, um, right now, um, that's not gonna last forever and may be gone tomorrow. And uh and so we are. We're temporarily able-bodied if we're able-bodied. And that really does bring remind us about not um not being ableists or ageists, you know, and and remembering that everybody has exact exactly the same value, the same agency, same um uh deserves the same level of care and love and compassion and agency to to share what they have in the world. And we should be all working toward making sure that happens. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

And if you, listener, have uh more ideas about how a loss ritual could happen in conversation. Please come tell us about it.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:37

You can join our sub stack and uh and also uh yeah, just do the podcast. We we have a way to comment as well. So we'd love to hear from you. And yeah, subscribe, tell all your friends, blah blah blah. Much love to all of you, and may you carry on and find your way through adios. Adios, see you next time.