SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back, everyone, to End of Life Conversations Weekly Digest. I'm Sam Lee Zemke and here with Joaquil David Matthew Reverend. Reverend Waquil David Matthews.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Sure, yeah. We were talking ahead of time. We always, that's our thing for the weeklies, is just to have some time together and think about what's on top of mind, and there's always something. There's a word that or a phrase that's used often in this world of death and dying and end-of-life work, and that's an anticipatory grief. And it's thinking about how many of us are dealing with things that were lost or that are going to be lost, maybe, or that are, you know, we're worried about the anxiety we have over things that might be, might, we might be losing, or that we're certainly losing. And it just creates this what they, you know, anticipatory grief. And what is that? How does that look? How is that different from other types of grief? Um so we thought we'd just talk about that. It'd be a good uh way to think about things for the day. And there's several that I can relate to. But Sam, what about you? What's what's your first thought when you think of that?

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yeah, the the word that came up for me when we were talking about it is looming. I really like like the how evocative that is as a word, you know, for for how it feels. You know, it's that sort of like oppressive looming shadow, you know, waiting for the other shoe to drop kind of feeling. And and yeah, it can show up in all in all sorts of ways, um, big and small, and then you know, as the non-literal death death doula or whatever. Um, you know, like I could see we've got anticipatory grief in, you know, uh, I'd say like white-collar jobs, um, you know, with with AI and and and tech and just like the economy and and downsizing and and stuff like that, you know, living with this constant uncertainty about your future, about what might be coming and the stability of your life and how you rely on supports um or loved ones. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Um my uh my wife was diagnosed two and a half years ago almost now with a terminal illness. And um, for the first six months or so, it was really looking bad, and we all were like living through that anticipatory grief and all sorts of just feelings that I'd, you know, like been talked about a lot on this podcast, but that were really, you know, upfront and and in our face. Um through palliative care, she's still alive two and a half years later and doing really well. So thank God for that. But there's still, like you said, there's that looming, you know, that always there's that sense of this could be the last time, you know, this could be the last time. And um so that that comes in in kind of surprising ways sometimes that just uh will hit me and and I'll just be like, oh, kind of like taken aback, you know, gasping in a way, like, oh yeah, this is this is so precious, number one. And number two, I just I don't know. I don't know when when it's gonna be over. And I feel really shap crappy about that, you know. Uh that's gonna be a whole different world. I had a dream actually the other night about uh just being in that world, kind of. It was almost a like a um what do you call it? The the you know, I was almost awake, kind of. Um but it was like this dream, this whole long dream of living a living my life and with my wife not there anymore, and how it would look and what it wouldn't be like, and and uh just very, very kind of interesting and frightening and sad and yeah, and many, many different feelings. But yeah, and I mean we also, you know, like you said, for people that are dealing with the possibility of losing their jobs, that's one that is definitely uh uh an example of anticipatory grief, or if you've got an animal that's sick, or you've got a friend, um, um, or you know, you might be losing your house. There's all sorts of, you know, we talk about all these different kinds of things that can create loss in our world, and the anticipation of that, the anxiety and the depressions that can come from that is really what we're talking about when we say anticipatory grief.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

And there's so there's so much uncertainty. The world is rapidly changing and we're facing so many crises all at once that you know, who who knows, who knows? And then we get these like focus points, right? One of the things that we were talking about is is the the possibility or the the sense of anticipatory grief around this upcoming election.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:19

And and I think that there's a lot of I hear a lot of hope also, but that comes with its own grief. That comes with its own risk. Yeah. Yeah. And like allowing yourself to hope for something better. Exactly. Um and the possibility of it not following through and things, you know, getting worse. And um, you know, what new new ways can the um can the crumbling of of the institutions reach new lows that people are are feeling? Um, I I saw uh the other day that, you know, the the um glitching of election machines is beginning. And um and so I think with that too comes the the risk or a piece that I want to speak about is the numb the numbness. Yeah. Yeah, definitely a symptom. Yeah. Especially when there's a lot of different things intersecting, as we can numb out and you know, coping mechanisms and especially unhealthy ones can show up in big ways. Um but yeah, to to to become numb to so many, and that I'm not gonna go down the road of you know, intent and and and uh shock, you know, shock tactics in in a political sense. Um, because I think the real important piece is that numbness. So I'm gonna hand that to you. What do you have to say about about it?

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Yeah, thank you. Well, yeah, I mean, you this, you know, for those who are watching this maybe another time of year, this is we're like a week away from our midterm elections. And um, so right now, and that's what we were talking about earlier when we were thinking, yeah, that's one thing that's causing anticipatory grief. Um just because it's so unknown and as and it seems so uh very frightening in a way, you know, because things have gone from our perspective anyway, from my perspective, um, deeply and deeply and more and more into uh dangerous territories that you know, we talk about grief around the loss of our planet and uh and uh and of our future. And so that's an anticipatory grief that feels like this election could affect one way or the other. And so that's part of it, you know, is this sense of uh we want to have hope, um, but in the on the other side, there's definitely that feeling of just, oh, this is this has gotten so bad and it could get so much worse. And if it does, you know, and and yeah, and that just can one of the reactions to that, one of the ways to deal with that is just to say, I'm not gonna deal with it, right? I'm just gonna live my life. I'm gonna I and I know many people who are just saying, I don't want to talk about politics. I'm not voting, I will never vote again because it doesn't happen, it doesn't mean anything. Um, and I just soon not pay any attention to it. My life will go on one way or the other, and it will. Um, and you know, many of us live a live privileged lives so that we aren't necessarily as affected as many of the our siblings who are um are less privileged. And uh and and in a way I think of that when I think uh that kind of you know, numbing out and letting yourself just drop away from it is a very privileged place to be. We went to a a hot springs this week. Um that was a really good place to be because you couldn't get any salt service up there. And so, you know, just in the in the old growth forest with um huge trees and um you know these hot tubs or these things were 106 degrees, you know, just ha um and you know, of course, full of all sorts of chemicals and but um that was that was a you know it's like it was really re revivicate. Revivifying revivifying, yeah, thank you. Um and really helped kind of take a break for a while. And I think that's important too. So not to judge numbness, but it is a it is a symptom, and it's uh definitely a response response that's we see all around us.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Yeah, and and to further acknowledge that that both of us are you know in different ways, but but in that more privileged place and and to acknowledge that the the people who don't have the luxury of even taking a break. Yeah, right. Um aren't here in the room with us to offer uh perspectives on that, to to um give us, you know, caveats or or offer, you know, hard or otherwise truths about how else we can approach those things.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Um because I I distinctly feel the tension of of going, yeah, like take the rest when you can, and and and the acknowledgement of that privilege and and the the position that I say that from. Um and it is important and and I think that maybe where I could bridge that, even with the the limitation of experience, is to hold that as the point. The point is to take rest so that you can get back to it. Yeah. To not fully disengage and not like, you know, the the cynicism can be so overwhelming. And that you what you were talking about, it's like I'll never vote again because it's pointless. And and maybe, you know, maybe that's so, but where can you where can you engage and as we talk about like facing grief? At some point, facing grief is really, really critical to moving through it. Yeah. And so, you know, and and thinking about like leveraging privilege, yeah, is how can how can we utilize the privilege of rest to come back fresher with more energy to support those who can't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Or maybe even make a way for them, make a place for them to have that um opportunity. Yeah. I I love that. That's that's really important. I think you know, we all uh uh we we try hard to think about that, but you know, really from this place of privilege, um we're we're at uh we have a much bigger responsibility, really, to find ways to be to help those who don't have the privilege and to to be of service, really. I think of service is a better way because we don't want to pretend we have the answers or not charity. Yeah, yeah. But you know, to just o open up to whatever way we can be of service to make life a little better for folks who aren't having that, don't have the privilege. I every time I go outdoors now, and you know, and I live in a very privileged high-end place, and there's um people working out here who are immigrants. Um and I I worry about that, you know, and I think about that, and I would think, you know, I carry my whistle around so that I can make a lot of noise if ice shows up. Um But I mean, those are that's a good example too. There's there's uh that's an anticipatory grief I feel for the the the loss that we have of our community, the breaking of down of our community, and then how how that seems to be getting worse and worse, and how there doesn't seem to be a lot of uh movement toward different ways of being with each other. Um there there is a um uh group here that got tries very hard to bring people from different political perspective perspectives together and just have conversations, which is great. But it's you know, it's really hard and it's really small and it doesn't seem to do much, make a lot of difference. And that divide is really I'm really anxious and you know, worried about how that's gonna affect our planet, our our kids, our everything, you know. It's just it's that uh certainly something I I spend a lot of time worrying about and thinking about and grieving. And uh so I think it's acknowledging that grief. So, you know, the kind of the we always uh hopefully think of a way to offer some guidance or some work toward that. I think that would be um acknowledge it, notice it, um, say it out loud, find your people, um you know, circle around and uh talk about it with each other and talk about you know how you what you can do today to be of service or what you can do as a group to be of service or what else there is, you know. There's always something if you make that and set that intention. Um in fact, when I do that more every morning and when I could suggest people do that, I always warn people that if you ask, you'll get something to do. If you set that intention, look forward to working on it, you know. Um but that's great. I mean, that's what we are here to do, right? So any thoughts you have about ways that people can acknowledge and notice and work with this grief, this type of grief.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Um yeah, I think as you said, you know, um looking for ways to engage with it. I think yeah, starting to notice. And that that that was the piece that you said. Starting to notice where it is and and noticing where where you are numb, you know, doing those like body scans, whether it's physical or emotional, psychological, of like where am I numb? Where am I feeling this grief? Where am I holding it in my body? Oh, it's so important, yeah. And and then starting to to learn how to move it on an individual level. And then, yeah, on in the in the community sphere, um you know, it's it's interesting. I've had this other looming awareness um as I'm I'm set to co-facilitate a chapel service on election day. And one of the pieces that came up when we were planning and getting some guidance um for that is that we so often um emphasize community and and yet there are people who don't have community. Oh, yeah. And how do we hold that tension in offering support, in offering um guidance for how to meet these moments? Yeah, and it's that's really, really hard for me because all of my solutions are like go find people, you know, like go be of service. If you're anxious about what's going on in your world, go help your community. Yeah, go like volunteer at a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter, or like go get involved in supporting the people if you have the privilege of time uh or resources, like help the people in your community that need help. And that goes so far in alleviating that stress because you can see the results. Yeah. Yeah. You know, when you give somebody who's hungry a meal, you see the results of what that does. Yeah. And and it's it's those small steps that we can make individually and collectively. And yet, what do we do? And how do we embrace, you know, the introvert, the the the people so deeply affected that you know, leaving the house. Yeah, grow maybe going grocery shopping is is the limit of what you can do. Yeah, yeah. Because of how deeply affected maybe you don't even have the capacity when you go grocery shopping to look another human being in the eyes and seek soul and seek humanity. You're so like trapped. And what do we do there? Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

That's a great, great question. Yeah. Yeah, I think you know, we've been hearing a lot of research that loneliness is a huge epidemic right now. Um elders especially, but I think many, uh you know, it's funny because I I say that elders especially, but uh one of the biggest groups of people who are lonely being alone are uh young men, actually. Um that they're you know, they're just hanging out in their homes. Um that and it's it's surprising when you start to hear these statistics, they just they couldn't find work, so they quit trying, you know. Um and um and so they sit around the house playing video games. Well, maybe they have a maybe they have a community in the video game world, but is that a community? I don't know. Um I don't want to. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Yeah, and I think uh yes, young men, but like just young people in general is you know um the the again that like intersection of of all of these things that we're like grieving and struggling with economic issues, the loss of third spaces, yeah, you know, everything you do out in the community costs money, or you know, and winter's coming. And so the weather may not be supportive to you know, just like going for a walk in your community here in our event. Yeah, in our hemisphere, and and certainly in the the region where we live, you know, the rain and the you know and that that brings its own emotional weight. Um true. But you know, honestly, you know, as as a like uh former big time nerd and uh someone who still sort of goes there for my own rest and break. Yeah um you know, if you if you have access to like virtual social things that are not that are direct interactions, you know, to speak to those who are, you know, more isolated or or feeling cut off in that way. Um you know, the maybe not like intentionally toxic digital spaces and and not so much the um the parasocial or indirect like social. Social media where you're like passively um engaging with something that somebody's putting out. But like if you play video games, when you sit down to do that, can you stretch into playing something socially? Can you engage in dialogue directly? Yeah. And conversation directly on on some, you know, a forum or, you know, uh, you know, channels, whatever that is, I think, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

I love that. You know, take take the opportunity while you're on that in that space to say, hey, let's get together offline, maybe, or let's get together in another kind of group where we talk about death and dying or something. Sure, yeah. Yeah. That would be really cool. I mean, go ahead. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Oh, well, even like I I'm I'm speaking about this from my own like recent personal experience where a friend of mine, or like a newish, you know, a more casual friend, uh, has really been been going through some stuff. And I've like reached out a few times to be like, hey, you know, do you have capacity to hang out? Do you want to engage? You know, and um and it's been, you know, no, I'm barely a person right now for most of the last year. Wow. And we just happened to be playing like the same game the other day. And so we hopped on together and hopped on voice chat and just like vented, just like let out, talked about what was what was uh what we were grieving. Wow. Allowed for that space to to just speak that and be held in that in that space, you know, while we're running around shooting zombies or whatever. You know. Um I love that.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Yeah, so cool. That'd be a good that'd be a good podcast episode. Yeah. No, that's so good. That's so good. I love it. And yeah, wherever you can. It's a great example, yeah, of just kind of watching for opportunities. Yeah. And you know, like um, I just uh started a uh Happy Hour for Sad People, you know, there's desk cafes, there's um ways to just gather together and even in groups that you already have, and that's another way. People sometimes, you know, you're in a book group or you're a crafts group or your church group or whatever, uh, that's another way to just kind of make it a point to notice that there may be people there that really could use a deeper connection and you know, just notice the people who are maybe not speaking up or maybe looking like they're having a hard time and make it um make it a point to reach out to those folks and and to be willing to take the kind of the they have the courage maybe to say, you know, I I noticed this. Can I can I be of service? Exactly, you know, exactly what it's about. Um also I just want to recommend this just kind of to this point of um I just watched Toy Story Five. And I was surprised, you know, I it hasn't gotten great reviews, but um, because you know, it's how many Toy Stories can you have, right? Sure. But but it's interesting because it what it speaks to is um you know it shows all these kids who are no longer playing with toys, no longer have any imagination because all they do is, you know, jump on jump jump on the frogs, you know. And and they have their community is just the people who are playing the frog jumping thing with them, and they never actually see each other in person. And and if they do, they're sitting around doing that, you know. And you know, they go, I'm gonna have a sleepover. Well, okay, we all got their pads and they're all doing their games, you know. And just the it kind of makes a point about what's lost with that, you know, um, and the the uh inner the interconnection and the compassion for each other and imagination. You know, we talk a lot about creativity. That's one of the things we really want to lean into more in our podcast in our next time, our next season. And um, and that you can lose that creativity if you're just letting the computer do everything for you. Um anyway, so I I I recommend that for folks.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh that's that's great. And that that ties into another another piece, you know. Um to circle back and bring it back to like and the anticipatory grief piece, yeah. And and more maybe on like a direct, like there is something looming in your life, yeah. An identifiable piece. And um, you know, journaling, writing poetry, however bad, you don't have to be good at it. Yeah, it doesn't have to rhyme the right. You can rhyme the same word with the same word. It's okay. It doesn't have to be for anybody but you. Yeah. If you can like turn off that that self-judgment piece about your creativity not being good enough.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Just like those feelings, that anticipatory grief, if you can find them, that's part of that identification, find where they are and what they're saying beyond the numbness. Yeah. And and and get them out. Get them out so you don't have to just hold them in your body. Um can be hugely, hugely, hugely useful and can open other avenues to, you know, maybe to facing that grief before it it's there. Or, you know, if you have somebody in your life who is dying to be able to engage with them and and express the things that you have now revealed and explored to yourself to them before they're gone, or you know, have those hard conversations and things like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Great, uh, great examples. Thank you. There's several people we've interviewed now. Um, Rosemary Tromer, Rosemary Watola Tromer, who's a poet, um, Moody Siveati is also a poet and a writer, and uh Mirby Star, all of whom we've had on our podcast, um, are doing online workshops for you know, to help people with writing, to help people with uh having a chance to do exactly what you said. Um most of them cost money, sadly. Yeah, but um a lot of them have you know scholarships available for people. So uh but even you know, you don't have to go to an online workshop. You can simply just take it at yourself, sit down and say, what's on my mind right now, what's in my heart, and type it out or write it out, and um just for yourself, just exactly what Sam said. You know, just it's all about you having an opportunity to express and maybe painting, you know, or maybe um singing or maybe dancing, you know, there's a lot of different ways you might express what's going on in your heart and what you're feeling and where you're feeling it. And actually, movement can be a really good way to address the somatic stuff sometimes. So tapping.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Yeah, yeah. And and and then I would also like to return to or um speak to as we wrap up here that these, you know, the the individual solutions, even some of the community solutions, service solutions, are um in many ways coping mechanisms. Yeah. You know, some of them have have you know, uh most of them have real impact, right? Yes. Um, you know, feeding somebody in your community has a real impact. Um but it doesn't necessarily address or remove the source of your anxiety, of your grief, of your fear, of the unknownness. Yeah. You know, we still don't know what's going to happen in two weeks. Exactly. Yeah. We still don't know. Wakil, you still don't know when you know what's gonna happen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

And it's really true all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

All the time. Yeah. But but to I just want to acknowledge that these don't fix that. That's right. You know, the it doesn't fix the climate anxiety, yeah, the extinction of species. It doesn't fix those things. But I the I think the hope is that it makes space for us to meet those moments more fully. Yeah. And and with more of our like selves, more of our faculties intact and at our disposal and creates those, you know, spaces of privilege that we were talking about earlier.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

Yeah, and and um reminds us to be compassionate with ourselves and with everybody we're meeting because we're all going through this all the time. So let's do that. Let's be let's be compassionate, let's live the mystery and acknowledge that we don't know what's gonna happen next, and uh and that we uh hold that ourselves and for each other, and spend is spend the time and do the things that we need to do to keep stepping up, keep waking up and going out and doing the next thing. So thank you all for watching and for all you do. Um please get in touch. Listening. Yeah. We uh love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

So um see you next time.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

See you next time. Adios. Adios.