End of Life Conversations: Normalizing Talk About Death, Dying, and Grief
Death touches us all, and yet our culture rarely makes space to talk about it openly. Why is it so hard to have honest conversations about death, dying, and loss with the people we love? What do we do with grief when it inevitably arrives?
End of Life Conversations is a podcast dedicated to normalizing these essential conversations. Hosts Reverent Mother Annalouiza Armendariz and Reverend Wakil David Matthews — both seasoned hospice chaplains and end-of-life companions — invite experts and everyday voices alike: funeral directors, death doulas, poets, researchers, grief counselors, and people who've walked right up to the edge of life and returned. Together, they explore what it means to prepare for death, sit with loss, and grieve in ways that are as individual as we are.
And weekly, we share a conversation with our friend Sam Zemke about something that is currently speaking to us.
Whether you're supporting a loved one through a terminal illness, searching for the right words to start a difficult conversation, or simply curious about what a more death-positive life might look like, this podcast meets you where you are. No question is too strange. No path looks the same.
Subscribe, reach out, and join the conversation. Because the time to talk about it is now.
We want to thank our excellent editor, Sam Zemkee. We also acknowledge that we live and work on unceded indigenous peoples' lands. We thank them for their generations of stewardship, which continues to this day, and honor them by doing all we can to create a sustainable planet and support the flourishing of all life, both human and more-than-human.
In this encore presentation of last year's Halloween episode, we explore cultural differences around Halloween, its historical origins, and the evolution of death rituals across cultures. We discuss how Halloween has become a commercialized holiday in the U.S. and how Christianity has shaped traditional death celebrations. We emphasize reconnecting with ancestors and the natural cycles of life and death, encouraging listeners to reclaim Halloween as an opportunity to honor loved ones and have meaningful conversations about death.
The episode emphasizes the importance of talking about death, dying, grief, and loss openly and honestly to improve the overall end-of-life experience. Understanding grief and loss is an integral part of coping with death and navigating the complex emotions that arise. It also highlights the role of hospice and death education in assisting people during end-of-life situations.
As the days shorten, explore end-of-life conversations centered on seasonal reflection and mortality. Understand how to process these themes during the autumn months.
In this episode, we discuss the onset of the spooky season and why this time of year often invites deeper contemplation regarding our finite nature. By acknowledging the link between changing light and our internal reflections, we can find a more grounded way to approach the darker months.
Whether you are personally reflecting on mortality or navigating how to support others through these seasonal shifts, this conversation offers a space to consider the human experience. We explore how to manage grief during the holidays and why seasonal depression can influence our perspective on aging and loss. Learning to embrace these natural cycles can help us remain present even as the world around us transitions.
Join the conversation in the comments: How do the changing seasons affect your perspective on life and legacy? Subscribe for more conversations about death, dying, grief, loss, caregiving, and the complicated realities of being human.
This podcast helps anyone dealing with loss. It can guide you with end-of-life planning and death-positive resources.
Check out our introductory episode to learn more about Annalouiza, Wakil, and our vision/mission to normalize and destigmatize conversations about death, dying, grief, and loss.
And we would love your feedback and want to hear your stories. You can email us at endoflifeconvo@gmail.com.
We want to be transparent that we use AI tools to help us with titles, show notes, editing, and introductions.
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SPEAKER_03
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to End of Life Conversations. Happy spooky season. Well, Keel, what are we doing today?
SPEAKER_00
Well, you know, I think all of us are feeling this end of uh of the light, right? The light is um going away more and more each day. We're getting very close to the time when we have the longest nights. And this is a time in the world where everybody celebrates or or deals with the um yeah, the darkness and the uh thinning of the veil, at least in the northern hemisphere. We should make make a point that that's in the northern hemisphere. And so right now we know there are rituals everywhere going on, and we just really want to uh acknowledge that and to do so um because I just want to make the point that for the next uh month or two, a couple months, we'll be doing more of these um encore presentations of episodes that um we really enjoyed from the past. Um Annalouiza is taking a well-deserved time off, and so we won't be recording new new episodes these next couple months, but we'll be sharing some of our favorites. And some of your favorites. Yeah, and some of your favorites, right? The ones you like the most. So you're welcome to send us a note if there's anything you'd like us to show. We'll certainly take that into consideration. But you know, this one specifically uh is is was our Halloween uh episode last year, and it and it uh and we called it the worldwide death rituals and the connection between death, dying, grief, and love. And love and love. Um and I and I yeah, I think you know it's important. It was really it was a great episode for us to really talk about all of the different ways that people are facing this together. So we hope you'll stay tuned. What do you think?
SPEAKER_03
Yeah, stay tuned, stick around, and uh the worms crawl and the worms crawl out.
SPEAKER_02
That's right. It's that time. It's that time of year. Enjoy. Happy Halloween and everything else.
SPEAKER_03
Yes.
SPEAKER_00
Hello, loved ones here and beyond the veil. I'm the Reverend Joaquil David Matthews. For this special Halloween episode, we thought we'd it would be fun and interesting to spend some time looking at the cultural differences between what we do here in the United States, our Halloween celebrations, and then the ones that other cultures do around the world. Even though our Halloween culture, our Halloween that we do here kind of originated with the Celtic Sawin ceremonies, it seems to have evolved, or maybe even devolved, into one of more fear and danger and evil, you know. And and so we thought it would be interesting to talk about how other cultures seem to be more comfortable with the celebrating and honoring the loved ones who have passed away, and then kind of how it's changed here in our culture. So what do you think, Annalouiza?
SPEAKER_05
I think that's a really great idea because I've thought about that. I uh as some of you have heard before, I was raised Pentecostal, and I remember being a kiddo who heard about Halloween at school and at my bluebird troupe. And you know, it was always like a mixed bag because I wanted to be a part of it, but my parents were always told that it was a satanic ritual, and that we had to be very careful that it it's a night where so much demonic activity happened. So, you know, growing up, sometimes they'd have like these uh church slumber parties or you know, for kids so that they'd give us candy but keep us in the church. To be safe, to be safe, right? So you know, I was just always flow muxed by this whole notion that we were we had to hide from Halloweeners. And it was it was interesting because I think when I was in junior high, I kind of thought I would just start looking to see what it originated from. And I couldn't understand, like I didn't even know what a pagan was. Like, like what's a pagan, right?
SPEAKER_04
Right.
SPEAKER_05
And so um now that you and I are are enjoying each other's company in death positive spaces, I love that we're gonna talk about this because I think there's like you said, there's been such a change from how what Halloween might have originated as to what we see as a multi-billion dollar capitalist function that keeps people afraid and not really wanting to get closer to the conversation about death, which is what it came from.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, it's really true. And and I was thinking that, you know, it's it is it has kind of become like all the other holidays that came from like pagans. Um, just another one of those things that we turn into buy, buy, buy, buy something, you know, buy these costumes and get yourself out there and scare people. And that whole scary thing of, you know, putting graves and and uh skeletons and all this stuff, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I mean, you know, if we look back this time of year in the in the northern hemisphere, it's the shortest days of the year. And so we have these long nights. And you can imagine, you know, back in back in the day that people were sitting around with not much else to do. It was cold, and at least in like I said, northern hemisphere. And um, and they started to think about and maybe feel that sense that the veil was thinner. And so, you know, maybe we can actually have some celebration and conversation and with each other and with the people who have gone before.
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00
And you see that over and over again in the cultures around the world until it gets here and does what it does here.
SPEAKER_05
Right. So, what I what I found out this afternoon was um indeed the Celts, you know, lots and lots of lots of uh iterations ago would count all Hollows Eve day, which they didn't call it that, they called it Salwin. They considered that the halfway point between autumnal equinox and winter solstice. So it's that halfway point that they would mark on their own natural calendar. And I love that they probably did do a lot of slaughtering of animals and start trying to put all their harvest food away because now it's cooler, the food can keep a little bit. And that what they did set aside this time to honor everybody who had passed during the year and came together, and then it became like a community function where food gets made, you know, apples were brought in for kids probably, and people were discussed in like the past tense. Yeah, yeah. Or maybe not so much past tense, but because they were like, tonight they're still out there wandering around. Right. And and so sowin is the the beginning of All Saints Day, which I guess I read that ninth century, the Catholic Church said, enough of this pagan stuff that's ours. We I I thought it was kind of funny. It was like, we're gonna create the party. You come to our party and don't go to your party to these pagan, these dirty people, these dirty farmers, because pagan actually means like people of the lands.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah. And you know, I can just I can kind of imagine the the big bonfires and people sitting around and like looking around and kind of feeling that sense of our ancestors are right here with us. Let's let's have a conversation, let's have a celebration, let's feed them, let's dance with them, let's sing, you know. I mean, we we had that wonderful um Irish person come on, yeah, that do the remin uh revenant songs. Um that was beautiful, and it was it was and that is something that's again that's in Ireland, that's pretty much harking back to these times. These these songs were about connecting to the dead, you know, and and reaching out to them and saying, hey, it's let's let's have a party, you know.
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00
And I love that. And of course, the wake, the idea. And we also looked into other European countries that did um like the after the All Saints Day would be the after All Souls Day the next day, November first and second. And I think it was in Austria that All Souls Day was uh a time for everybody to go out and visit all of their loved ones at the at the Sarah at the uh graveyard and and to go to their graves and to put candles and food and the same same kind of thing, you know, just really celebrate that these people aren't gone. They're still in our hearts, they're still a part of us, and we want to say hello. You know, what a much, what a wonderful, sweet way to look at things instead of, oh my God, let's make each other scared.
SPEAKER_05
Yeah, and you know, it's a it's a lot of different things for me. I also feel like uh, you know, the rise of Christianity also did away with a lot of these very natural and lobbying ceremonies that people would do to keep connected to one another and those who were on the other side of the veil. But you know, so just as a as a kind of a cross-reference too, the los dias de los muertos, because it's two days, just like they do in Austria. And what I didn't realize is it's like the Catholic Church wanted you to celebrate the death of all the saints, which I'm like, okay, you know, what of like I didn't know them. But um for my tradition, we spend November 1st honoring all babies who have died, dead children, pets, all those that we consider like saintly by their own right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04
And so, you know real saints.
SPEAKER_05
Real saints, yeah, saints we know. And so uh we usually have a lot of kids come over and do their own little thing, talk about death. And then November 2nd is for the adults who have passed. And so, you know, it's a two-day celebration that the church wanted to got, you know, force our hand to do it one way. But here we have now there's a continuation for me in my mind. It's like all Hollows Eve. You know, it's the night before we start this tradition to spend time with our ancestors. You know, this is when we do all the cooking, this is when we do, you know, getting the food prepared and setting up the bonfires. And one thing I also found out about was that the bonfire that was made that evening would be the fire that you took home to to light your your winter fire to keep it, to which I imagine is the next is to Easter. Because that is the next time that you you're you let the fire die out and you start a new one and begin that fire to take you through another season. So all these very lovely and earth you know, nurturing, yes, traditions.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah. Yeah, we we've lost sight of those, unfortunately. And and in our culture only, I think, well, maybe only there's other cultures. A lot of the Western cultures have lost sight of those under the influence of Christianity mostly. Um maybe the other Abraham Abrahamic religions have contributed to that. I but in any case, that losing sight of that has separated us from that which is real, that you know, that I that connection to the earth and that and that it that we write what we try to reclaim with all of what we're doing and the mystic practices and the the time to, you know, trying to get back into the earth and be with the earth and be grounded and present and uh celebrating and saying thank you. Um, all those things that we spend most of our time talking about, thinking about, trying to do our practices to try to bring that back into our world.
SPEAKER_05
Mm-hmm. You know, something else that occurred to me is like we they were thankful for that time too, but they also acknowledge the end of that season, right?
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05
The trees have probably lost their leaves, you know, the grasses have become drier. There is a very deep fear of dying through the winter because of the cold. Did we have enough food? Do we have enough uh you know fuel for our fires? And so death is is present.
SPEAKER_04
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05
It's it's around, it's like walking around and being like, who who do I get this year? Right. So exactly. Um, so truly it is the veil is thin. You know, not only are we mourning our loved ones who have passed, but I see that death is still lurking.
SPEAKER_00
Exactly. Yeah. And I think through our practices that we do sometimes when we do medit deep meditation in the forest and stuff, we begin to kind of get that sense of the the thinness of the bale that we notice more in this time of year because it's so getting dark and we're in that we get a chance to kind of sleep, rest, you know, the the opportunity to rest in the in the darkness. Um that we can you can kind of create that as well with meditation and with being in the forest. And but this is an opportunity to notice how the earth is responding. I think that's the beauty of it is you're tuning into the cycles of the planet that we live on, the mother that is going through her death cycle right now, and and that also holds that intrinsic hope that spring will return, right?
SPEAKER_05
Right. And it's a hope. It's a just a hope. That's all that's gonna get us through it, right?
SPEAKER_00
That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Because otherwise we we despair and we get in. I mean, people do, people do get depressed in the wintertime, and um, and of course they get depressed every time every day because of all the other things that are going on. But the way I think it's a great lesson for us to remember that this is an opportunity to reconnect and to notice that that intrinsic hope that that spring does come back, that the morning does come, that we do take that next breath. Um, and it's just sort of a wonderful, wonderful earth connection that takes us through that lesson. That that's wow, what a get what a blessing. What a blessing it can be.
SPEAKER_05
It can be. So, you know, going back to our Halloween practice here, where actually capitalism has like absconded with that practice as well, right? Like it's like somebody needs to make billions of dollars.
SPEAKER_02
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05
Uh and you know, I wonder how much of this is too. Like, I was just imagining, you know, our our ancients sitting around during this time. You know how it's starting to cool down outside? The earth, like the the actual earth is getting a little cooler. But every once in a while you'll feel a thermal just go by, like warm air just gonna sift by. You know, might that have been an ancestor who just went by, right? Yeah, snuggled up. So there's all these little kind of earth motions that contribute to this like mystery, right? Like, what was that? And then now, like, we send kids out in you know, fully decked out in plastic and you know, wigs and stuff, and they're out there being the spirits, but not able to feel the mystery.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. It's really sad. You know, I remember in my in my neighborhood, there used to be one guy that would put on this really scary costume and walk around just freaking everybody out. And and it was, you know, he was having fun, you know, it was his fun. But again, it's that whole sense of this is about how scared can we be, or go watch a horror movie.
SPEAKER_05
Right. Well, it contributes to a culture that's very afraid of death.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah. More so, yeah.
SPEAKER_05
Well, or or it changes the perception that death is ugly and loathsome.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05
Rather than natural.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, which is what we're trying to make different.
unknown
Right.
SPEAKER_05
Little steps, baby steps.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah. So yeah. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_05
I don't no, just keep going. Because I was just thinking about so much that we've lost to what people think is prog progress, right? Like it's just taken us so far away from the, you know, the missors.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and forgetting. Yeah, just being in this forgetfulness and thinking that we have to have these, all these things, all these recrutrements, all these, you know, our nice cars, our nice houses, our nice, all the nice, nice stuff, you know, that um that trick, uh the hallmark holidays. Yeah, that get between us and that sense of being one with the the beloveds. Um, so let's reclaim it, right? Let's uh how about that for a call to action for everybody? Let's see if we can reclaim this and maybe start talking, maybe start having celebrations with your loved ones more around the Sawin version or around the Dia de las Mortas or the or the even the the uh this second half of the all souls of the all souls day.
SPEAKER_04
Yeah, yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_00
Spending that time remembering that those people haven't left and that they are still with us and that we can say thank you and we can bring out a bunch of food and share our food and our flowers and our I mean sticky rice or whatever. The I remember the Asian ones that we looked at were you know the hungry oak hungry ghosts days in in China.
SPEAKER_04
Right.
SPEAKER_00
Also the same thing. They would bring out lots of food and and flowers and just let's let's all get together again, gather around and celebrate this time of year. We have that opportunity. We can change, we can make that change.
SPEAKER_05
Aaron Powell We do have the opportunity. Something that I've never really understood, but so I guess like Veterans Day, is it Veterans Day and or Memorial Day in May? When people go to visit veterans plots, right? Not necessarily everybody. It's just so does the U.S. have have any kind of holiday to go to their loved ones' grave?
SPEAKER_00
I don't think so. I think that's the only one. And some people do on Memorial Day go to their uh to their loved ones too. I think, you know, they they they get that opportunity. I mean, I think I think it's something so deep in our DNA that, you know, if we find a way or if we open ourselves to it, how many so many people we've talked to, though, on the podcast have mentioned that they've never ever been to the gravesites of their family. It's not something that's done anymore. Yeah. For one thing, we're so spread out that our grave the gravesites may be two thousand, three thousand ways of miles away, you know.
SPEAKER_04
Right.
SPEAKER_00
Um and even if they weren't, you know, how many of us go and visit them? It's not a it's not a thing here as much as it is. And I think these cultural things we've talked about all sort of lend themselves to remembering, let's go, let's go visit them, let's go to the grave, and let's let's uh see that place where we left them behind, you know.
SPEAKER_05
Yeah. Agreed.
SPEAKER_00
Well, that's our that's our call to action for all of you.
SPEAKER_05
Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_00
Think about it, think about ways you can change this this kind of dis this uh disconnect. Find ways that you can reconnect.
SPEAKER_05
And maybe Halloween is a really great opportunity to talk about death.
SPEAKER_00
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05
Because what is it, you know, with your community or your loved ones that either bring a sense of horror and fear, or is it a natural ending, end of the season, autumnal delight? You know, like which one is it? Which one are you fostering in your own space?
SPEAKER_00
Exactly. Yeah, we talk I remember talking about in our um class about preparation for end of life that we should have a a day of the year where we just get everybody together that we love and talk about how we want to die.
SPEAKER_05
That's right. Wasn't it a dead day?
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or dead party. Death party. That's right. First day, death day, yeah. And yeah, it's you know, so that maybe Halloween's a perfect time for that because it's really part of our DNA if we think if we let it, it can just really connect back connect us back to the really, really ancient stuff that that we know is in there that we can feel. It's an opportunity. So what a great way to talk about this stuff. Thank you for spending time on the Louisa.
SPEAKER_05
Thank you for making space for us to like, you know, be curious about what is this actually means. And also, I hope more people are curious about why they do certain things. Like people just spin their wheels doing the same thing over and over again without having a value system around what it is that they're doing. I'm like, yeah, why are you doing this?
unknown
Right.
SPEAKER_00
This is one good example, and there are many, many more.
SPEAKER_05
That's right. So reclaim it.
SPEAKER_00
Yeah, yeah. So could please come back and see our next podcast. And there's so many great people coming up. Can't wait to see you all there.
We are gonna die. What don't we have each other prepare for me without death and happy love and love and love, conversations, conversations at the end of life, death and dying grief and last conversations at the end of life.
SPEAKER_00
Thank you for joining us today. Thank you to Charles Heastan, the composer of the original music you are listening to now.
SPEAKER_05
And of course, thanks to you, our audience, and all of our amazing guests. Please come back next week for another great episode. Share this with your friends, family, and community. We hope you will subscribe and follow us on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, and Substack. Each guest's additional information will be found in the podcast notes. And of course, if you have a good end of life story to share, please reach out. We are always eager to hear from you.
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