SPEAKER_04 0:01

Welcome everybody to this week's weekly dispatch from End of Life Conversations Podcast. We are here with our friend Annalouiza and Sam and myself, Joaquil. We read an article this week from the Death Whisperer, which we'll put a link to. It's a at a Substack that they have, and they do a wonderful job. I love pretty much most of the things I read from them are really good. But this is one of the series that she's she's they're doing called The Dye. This one is called The Dying We Could Prevent. And it's talking about the series is kind of talking about who is not being served in the world of and death care, you know. And so they have talked, they talk a lot about inequity, inequity in the in the healthcare system in general, but then how that relates to end-of-life care, right? And so we've witnessed this. Um Anna Louisa has lived it, and uh we've witnessed this from some of our podcast guests, some of our friends, um, people we know. So um yeah, there's a lot to talk about with there. So where should we start? Do you think?

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Well, I think we should start with the date. Today we are one week from our our midterm elections.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

And, you know, we have this uh cohort of very young, politically uh minded activists, people who have just come in to be our spokespersons for our our country, right? And I was really taken recently by a real uh that Abdul uh Said put out, and he said, You have no idea what's coming January 1st because that's when your health care is going to be super expensive.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:55

And and you know, he talked about some people are saying, well, it's not gonna affect me personally because I'm not on Medicare. And so I don't have a problem. And he broke it down as more people will show up in emergency situations and they won't be able to pay for those those uh services, which means that the hospital will start losing money, which means that people they will start pressuring people with insurance so that their premiums will go up so that we help offset those costs. And even in the best of our economic times, I think we have had you know um the cost of services be a hindrance for a lot of our community, be they, you know, people of color, people with economic instability. And so, you know, I just wanted that article really brought you know illuminated the different quadrants of our community that already struggled before this even happened.

unknown 2:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:54

So what are we gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Right.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

How can we help talk about this so that uh we find more ways for people to access good health care and good dying?

SPEAKER_04 3:06

Yeah, yeah. Or at least help assistance in dying, yeah. Because we all know how expensive that is. And um, you know, that it's just uh it's nonprofit. We started it, it's it's gonna be difficult. And the other thing is happening with people like myself doing nonprofits or people memorial or others, it's really hard to get funding, first of all. Uh secondly, um you know, it seem seems like the millionaires and billionaires don't care uh enough to support those kind of things, and they certainly could. But the uh and that would be one solution. But the other thing is that they um uh it's it's just hard to get organizations like some of the providers to participate, maybe give discounts and offer change in costs, you know, and that kind of thing. Um yeah. And I mean, you know, healthcare is available if you're willing to wait. Um I remember when we were talking about healthcare for all and everybody said, like Canada, like Canada, and people from Canada are saying, Yeah, but we have to wait six months to get an appointment. Well, guess what? We have to wait six months to get an appointment for now. And we still pay for it.

SPEAKER_03 4:17

It's so it's miserable. I, you know, full transparency. I I hurt my foot like two months ago, and I finally decided I should probably you know, I was reading about feet and how many bones exist in the foot. And I was like, okay, I need to just go and get somebody to see me. And I looked at like our Denver General and let's see if I can find somebody who can help me out. And I, my first phone call to try to get an appointment, I waited for like a half an hour on the phone. I kid you not. And then the person was like, What insurance do you have? You know, and I tell them the insurance, oh, well, then I guess we can see you. Okay. And he's like, Well, now you have to call a different office to make your appointment. So again, I was another half hour wait, then it clicked off.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Right.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

And I was like, and then I finally, you know, I waited for the next day and I and I called back, and and this lovely young lady was like, Well, I see that you have the insurance that you can come in. Um, but it's self-referral. So we have to put you on a list to see if we can actually help you.

SPEAKER_04 5:15

Oh my.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

I know. And I sat there and I was thinking, okay, this is going to become a very expensive, like very long. Um, lots of people, lots of time that I will just not really get the help I get. And I said, I'm so sorry, but I think I need you to like take my name off a list. And and I said, I think I'm gonna go find some woo practitioners and start a different, like I, you know, I was thinking maybe I have like a broken toe, but maybe, you know, I'll just go to an acupuncturist. I don't think I need to go here. And, you know, she was like, Are you sure? And I was like, Yeah, because I know what this spells for my future. It'll be very expensive, time consuming. And maybe you're just gonna tell me take ibuprofen ice it and put it up, you know. So I'm like, no, I don't want to do that. So yeah, our healthcare, all of our care, you know, even um, I also had a call last week to, you know, go in and do last rites for somebody who's all like entering hospice. But I realized it's the funeral home that I work with. And so, you know, there's like they're like this third party entity, right? And they're also like gatekeeping the family's name until, you know, whatever they probably pay or something. And and I'm like, there's just no flow of energy, you know, either, you know, emotional or financial energy. It's just always like, stop. Stop. You know, do you qualify? Do you meet the thing?

SPEAKER_04 6:45

Yeah. And and when you do finally get through all of that, appointments are at least three or four months out. It's been my experience. So Sam, what have you experienced with this?

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Um similar, I mean, uh, it was it was a dental thing. I've got like dental work I need done. I would the dental vision and hearing is its own nightmare in our in our in our healthcare system. Yeah, you know, describing, I don't remember where it was, but describing your teeth as luxury bones, which is like is true in our current system. You know, our no like even if you have really good uh insurance, dental's probably not covered. Yeah, you're you're still gonna pay, you know, if you're a working person, maybe like half your monthly income for a dental appointment. Yeah, um you know, the last time I actually went into a dentist, I was like, hey, I've got this toothache, but also there's this and this and this. And they're like, we can't look at any of those because you're here for this one thing and we can only look at this one thing. Yeah. This was a dentist, the only affordable dentist in the area was 30 minutes, a 30-minute drive, a 45-minute drive away, and all of the you know, means testing for need and all that. But then uh when I got back to like the Portland metro area, um, which Oregon has one of the better Medicaid systems and public health systems that I've experienced around here, sort of on the West Coast. You go further, maybe like Midwest, East, because there's less population density. Um, care is I have experienced care that's easier to access in like bigger towns in more remote states like Montana or North Dakota. Um but I scheduled a dental appointment because I have a couple cavities and maybe a tooth that's dying and like whatever months out. Yeah. I'm I'm driving up to Portland. I schedule my travels, my migrations around this dental appointment. I'm halfway to Portland, and they say, we just lost the the one dentist that this clinic has. Oh you'll have to call again and reschedule for another one. Like you're on a waiting list for this clinic. I have to call them back and say, okay, like I had this today or tomorrow. What's going on? They're like, oh, that that clinic is essentially closed. Nobody told me that. They said, we'll put you on a list for this other clinic, which is another like four months out.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

Wait. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 9:30

Even though your mouth falls out.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Sure. Well, and and that's you know, one of the things, you know, I was talking with a friend of mine who had to have a tooth extraction, and the amount of like nerves, how close to our brain our teeth are, um, the amount of like blood that flows through our mouths, it is a critical system. And tooth decay can kill you. Straight up, straight up. An infected tooth, an impacted tooth can kill you. And we just like don't give a shit. And it's like, what are we doing? Um, and and healthcare has been been sort of similar, you know, juggling around different um different clinics trying to find one. Uh here for a long time, uh, naturopaths were in uh in the network for the the Oregon Health um like public health program. Um, but I was just talking to uh a dear friend uh here who is a naturopath, and he said that um meta I can never get them straight. Medicare, Medicaid, Medicare probably, yeah. Yes, Medicare support for one of these days I'll get it. Medicare support for even for naturopathic clinics is drying up. And the one that he works at just lost that. And so all of the clients he was seeing there now have to find somewhere else when everywhere is already overburdened.

SPEAKER_04 11:09

And I find more and more of those practitioners, all practitioners, dentals and everything, are just saying, I'm not gonna mess with this insurance. It's too much trouble. Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:17

Yeah, or like you know, Idaho, where they lost a lot of um obsteticians because of the policies, and they were just like, we can't get embroiled in a lawsuit because a woman is bleeding and we do a thing that gets us put in prison, right? And I mean, even, you know, obstet obstetrics is becoming harder to find. A lot of maternal uh sections of hospitals are also disappearing because people don't want to mess with that. Yeah. Um yeah, so our care for people goes away. I mean, it was hard to come by to begin with, but now it's actually impossible.

SPEAKER_04 11:57

Yeah, for many people, right? And and in this article, she talks a lot about the specific ways that um people of color are are treated differently. And and LGBTQ and people in poverty, um, Native Americans. She a really good point she makes is that the the way COVID showed us those big, you know, really strong, really dip big differences because of the way if you just look at the statistics from COVID, far fewer white people died from COVID than every other group. And Native Americans died at much larger than anybody else. Um, you know, and they don't have a very good care. Uh you know, they're supposed to be taken care of by the government that said they would take care of them forever and has not done so ever. And so maybe even more now. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

But even the the biases that they find in you know in a hospital when they go in for some support are like, you know, oh, you're probably a drug addict, or you're probably XYZ. Like, you know. You don't, you know, and it's so interesting, like the those numbers actually also coalesce in the minds of a lot of white people how, well, they're different because they're black. So that must mean that they're less I'm more immune to the virus than everybody else, right? Yeah. But what it really just spoke to was the you know, the economic irregularities and the the the internal biases, the racism that exists in our healthcare system that just says, you know.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

It's still there, yeah. Well either either you're more immune and more resistant to pain, or you have more more comorbidities because you're biologically inferior. Or like, you know, it it goes back to those like the the contradictory mental gymnastics of scientific racism. That's right. That that you have it both ways, and both of them mean that you don't give somebody the care that they need to be able to do.

SPEAKER_04 13:56

I mean, we have the sense that we've somehow gotten past all that, or some people think that, but but really you can see the evidence. She talks a lot about it in the article. You can see the evidence everywhere that we have not gotten past that at all. People of color are still treated differently, they're still treated like they don't have the same level of pain or they're and they they're ignored.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

Or they don't deserve pain medicine like others, right?

SPEAKER_04 14:21

Yeah, because they might abuse it or something, you know. And uh um oh I the one thing she brought up was this the um I'm not sure what they call them, the oxygen clip that they put on your finger. Doesn't work on dark skin. And so and they've never they've known this for years and they don't fix it. They just go, oh, well, you know, we'll we'll work it out or something. I don't know. Which it just seems insane, you know. How could we have this very I mean everybody gets that when you go into the doctor, you get that clipped on you to see how your where your oxygen levels are. And if it's not working because your skin is dark, then you know, how much good is that doing? Again, it's just one piece of that large puzzle of or large examples of over and over again how we see that. And uh you know, we've re we've talked about people in um in our podcasts that are LGBTQTIA plus um who are not given the same care and um they're not allowed to have the people they really care about in the room, even and uh even though they may have written written up something about this, written uh advanced care directive that says this is the person I want to have help me, the family comes in and says we have priority because we're the actual family. Um so yeah, we've still got a lot of that going on.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

And and another piece of that, too, that I've been learning about that's sort of an unrecognized crisis that um especially these like last the last push, you know, for um trans-exclusive health play health care. And you know, that's something that did not there was not a claim back of rights during this last election in the United States. There wasn't, yeah. Um there were some pretty big concessions and losses, in fact, is that there is a queer refugee crisis in this country, which affects which affects services and health care as well, and death care, because healthcare and death care you know go hand in hand. But but there are people fleeing these states where they cannot get the care that they need to more sympathetic and more affirmative states, and that creates extra load on already stressed systems, and then we have a federal system that is also weaponizing funding and denying funding for anywhere that accepts those people, and so it stresses that even more. And so we're yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 17:00

No, but this is a that's a really great point, and I love that because you know, we think about like climate refugees or you know, people seeking asylum in our country, and yet in our very own country, we have almost without wording it similarly, we have refugees, we have asylum seekers, right? Like people who need need like they it will be dangerous to get their affirming care in other places and they move to a different state. And I'm like, wow, it's almost like the micro, macro, micro, right? Like we're just kind of like making it this narrow, but we only use that language for outsiders of the United States, but within our country, yeah, we have refugees. I think that is very that is very encodent to the thoughts.

SPEAKER_04 17:49

People immigrating to Canada or Mexico because I might get better care, you know.

SPEAKER_03 17:55

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 17:57

a great point. And I think the uh the the the you know the the disappointment out of this wonderful change that happened with the elections, the biggest disappointment for me in the state of Washington was exactly that, that the the um it was a very confusing um law that they bill, and of course they made it confusing on purpose. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

And they and they did the marketing and you know, the pot the propaganda on it very incredibly wasn't it the same company, I mean the same bunch who did it all over because we had the trans bills here and it was big money from outside our state.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:35

So it was probably the same. And I think it they were that super pack that just went around and made it happen.

SPEAKER_04 18:41

Yeah, and and so we they defeated that or well that we they they didn't, I say. Yeah, I forget how it worked, you know. But um in any case, what ends up is that trans people who probably did think that they were moving to a place that had better um accessibility and better co you know affirmation of their persons now have lost some of that because of the because of this propaganda that comes from this very well financed um package. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

Um I will say I and I didn't read the article, I think that I it might have been like an Instagram reel by the governor who's coming in, Phil Weiser. I think he spoke to this, or somebody spoke to the fact that he has the possibility of overturning those.

SPEAKER_02 19:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

And so people are starting to talk about well, there is a chance that those won't come to pass here. It just requires him to be very brave.

SPEAKER_04 19:37

Yeah. Well, and the legislatures that too can also do something. So I mean, that really kind of gets us to the point of what do we want to do about all this, right? What can we do about all this? What can we do in our own local neighborhood to support people? We can first of all inform each other, talk about this, and then think about ways that we can reach out to the people who are making the laws, that the judges, the governors, the legislators, and say, you know, we this this needs to change. We want you to change it, um, make the changes that need to happen. And the hardest part is that, as you said, you know, there are people in states. I mean, I just read an article that said, you know, well, we've got 50 states, and if you don't like where you live, move somewhere else. That's just not possible for an awful lot of people. And so, you know, even to say that is very, you know, kind of silly and privileged. But um but it is to some extent, it is true that we have that balance, and that's kind of what we showed with this election is that even though we were many of us were despairing that we'd never get away from this autocrat and insane.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

We're still gonna have two more years of this too.

SPEAKER_04 20:47

Well, true, yeah. But I mean, we have a way now to put some brakes on that. Some pressure, yeah. And to maybe make a difference. So that's I think a big part of it.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

That is a big part. And you know, listening to our conversation here makes me realize, again, it's languaging.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

Because all of these pieces that we talk about are about um the right to have autonomy and safety in our bodies, right? Be they man, woman, even children should have more rights in some ways. And, you know, the the spectrum of skin colors should have more. Like we should be okay being who we are, and we should be cared for when we're ill. And we should have access to, you know, the end of our life that is lovingly supported and you know, listened to so that you can actually leave this world feeling great, feeling supported, I guess. Right. So we all feel supported in every aspect of our lived corporal lives.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

And, you know, maybe that's what we that that's the that that's what we should all just do is just start languaging that it's not, you know, because of this divisiveness. That has been fraught in our country for decades, I think. You know, we should start talking about body autonomy for all of us. Right. I want to be, you know, I want my my uh advanced care directive plan to actually be, you know, seen and honored. And my death, you know, I want it to be the way I have asked it to be.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

So are there are there ways to get those those documents like more legally binding? Like advanced care directives and stuff. Like, like you were saying, there's, you know, if you are a queer person who wants your partner or somebody from your chosen family to be your go-to person, and your family comes in and says, No, we have legal right to override that. Are there avenues? And maybe this is a state-by-state thing, but like, are there avenues to build in like no actually like this is like notarized or whatever that says like you actually don't get to override this person's autonomy and wishes because we see that clearly. We do.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

And I think that the people, I don't know. We we have we don't know the folks who had family move in and were like, you know, that's not a he, that's a she, and her name is this, you know, like and all the community members are not allowed into this space. I don't know if they had an advanced care directive plan, but I will say if they had it, if they had one and it was notarized, that's a legal binding document.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

And they could somebody could go and talk to a judge and be like, this is not okay, you know. And hospitals should actually be accountable to that too. Like if there is a written piece of paper that actually follows all the checks and all the boxes, yeah, yeah, it should be enough.

SPEAKER_04 23:52

Healthcare a type of power of attorney, you know, and it's sometimes labeled that way. That's right. Um so yeah, I think that's another piece of education, you know, is teaching well, or or demanding of the hospitals and health care and care agencies and hospices and et cetera, that what the person like you said, everybody should have the right to this or their own autonomy, their own agency. And that's part of your responsibility as a care care facility to honor that. And if you don't, we'll take you to court. But then you get back to this, you know, gotta go to court. Oh my God. That you know, that's through all that. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 24:31

There's all this. But I will say, from my lived experience, my sister had been estranged from my mother for 15 years when she went into the hospital and was actively dying. And my mother showed up, and my sister, even in her fading state, was pissed. She was like, this is not okay. And so it became my job to ask our mother to please leave, like that she was not welcome in that space. And then I had to go tell the nurses, like, this is not okay. Well, my sister had never written who not to have in that room. And the nurses were like, that's the mom. Like, of course, you're gonna let the mom in. And I always was like, she's not okay with this person. There was, you know, there's a situation that happened between them, and my sister never forgave my mother. Actually, she didn't have to, it was pretty bad. But um, you know, people are can only be held accountable when they understand and they can see, they can listen, they could watch and be like, oh yeah, this is not actually okay. This person who is dying is having a really hard time. Let's clear the room. Let's let everybody just move away and just take a minute and you know. Um, but when I was at the hospital, I would be like, You're not allowed to be in this room. And it was it was hard. And my mother is not nice. She can be very violent. So it was uh it was very yes, and so it was very difficult, but I stood my ground for my sister because I could watch how like she just started like quivering in her in her death cycle. Um, but when I go to to the hotel at night, she'd come back in. And so, you know, it's really hard. I think that it behoves us. And in my in my FDS care director, I do have a list of people I don't want in the room because they don't deserve to see the the honor of being in my sacred threshold. Like, no, get away. But you know, we do have to in in invite people to conversations about how to make sure that your loved one gets what they need and with who and how, right?

SPEAKER_04 26:44

Like and that goes back to our number one job here, you know, have these conversations. Have these conversations. And especially, you know, now when once you're in this world that we've invited you into, our wonderful audience that have been here with us, uh, you know, this is the work that we can do. We can ask those questions and we can make sure that those things are listed. Um, because a lot a lot of people don't even think about that until it's the time, you know. And and then they're not able to stand up and yell at people. So hopefully they'll have an advocate like Annalouiza, but it's not always very often, very not very often.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

It's hard. And going back to one of our our our guests, like it really shouldn't be family because there there is animosity from me having been there.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:31

But I will I will say, uh, my father came by a few weeks ago and and we've been working on his advanced care directive and all the stuff, all the paperwork. And out of nowhere, he says, I think I should have asked you first. And I haven't spoken to my mother since my sister died. And so, yeah, that was no, actually since COVID. Since COVID. Uh so uh he says, I I told her, like, maybe you should think about getting your advanced care director plan done. And she's like, I have nobody. And it's true. Like, my mother has isolated herself in this space where you know it, she's alone. And I and with the exception of my father who checks on her every couple months, there's no one. And and he said, Well, I know that you know Annalouiza isn't, you know, and you or don't get along, but she would she would do what you wanted for her if you made her the health care um proxy for you. Because he said, She will do it, whatever it is that you want. Because he still is mad that my sister wanted to die. And he was like, If she, if I would have been that, you know, that person, I would have not let her die. I'm like, Yeah, she didn't choose you, man. She chose me because I was gonna be like for this reason, right? So, but I thought it was really interesting that my dad told her, is like, whatever you want, she will totally do it for you. Like, yeah, and I was like, that's actually true, dad. Like, I was like, Yeah, you should have asked me first. And I really will honor to the letter to the law, whatever it is that she wants at the end of her life. Like, not a problem.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_03 29:03

But I wish it weren't me. It would be nice to have like somebody who can hold that space.

SPEAKER_04 29:10

Well, turn her on to the uh healthcare advocacy organization that will she can hire somebody.

SPEAKER_03 29:16

My mother has no money.

SPEAKER_04 29:17

Oh, yeah, that's always a problem.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

No, this is not somebody, yeah. I it will have to be me.

SPEAKER_04 29:24

So bless you.

SPEAKER_03 29:26

I mean, that's a thing, Waquil. Like people can't hire people. Like it's really a thing.

SPEAKER_04 29:32

I know, it really is. I mean, we've that's the number one thing we hear from people in our classes and on podcasts. That yeah, I don't have anybody. I have nobody I can trust, nobody around me, nobody lives near me, the people I know are all dead already, or they're dying, and or uh many other reasons, but and then we we try to find a way. There are some pro bono help out there, but limited. Um, but you know, like an attorney or whatever. And some of these actually the healthcare advocacy people wrote back and did tell me that they do have people that work on a lower on a sliding scale or a pro bono even. Um and students, sometimes students are are law students, that kind of thing. But you have to go, you have to go through a pro uh an organization in order to make sure they've yeah, backgrounded. You can't just say, oh, there's a there's a lead, there's a law school nearby. Hey, anybody want to help? You know, that's not gonna be a good idea.

SPEAKER_03 30:22

And just as I'm listening to you, Wakil, too, it's just it, you know, when when you come from a space where either you're terminally ill or you're really old and are having a hard time hearing, seeing, yeah, you know, ambulating, like it really is hard to find the help you need. It's like it's a lot of it's a big lift.

SPEAKER_04 30:41

Yeah, yeah. You know, yep, it really is. Another good reason to work on it now.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

I know, I know.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

And I don't know, maybe, maybe we're wrapping up before what I'm want to talk about next is sort of wrap-up. So if there's anything else you guys want to talk about, um as I'm sitting here, you know, we're we're talking about, you know, as we try to be like solution oriented or like, you know, what can we do? How can we act? And like facing the moment we are where the pot, I'm gonna have to narrow this in because I'll talk another half hour about this just this. The pot of resources that goes to this care that we are able to offer each other. The reason that there are so many more people who are alienated, isolated, and broke and can't afford these services is because the pot available to us is smaller. The ultra-wealthy have more of our money. Yeah, we have since COVID, especially. I mean, even before that, 2008, 2000, Reagan, back and back, the upward mobility of wealth, drawing, drawing our ability to support each other. Yeah. And drawing resources from healthcare um is such a huge machine. Yeah. That has so much momentum. And we're at, you know, we have had this like small victory, and there's this talk about like, okay, hold, hold uh these new representatives feet to the fire. Like, don't let up call them, whatever, whatever. I struggle with the like electoral, like, you know, paddling upstream in the machine of like oligarchy and money, and and you know, uh these massive super PACs that are like dumping money into a state election about trans health care. You know, these kinds of things.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Like these are such huge, huge issues. Access to health care, access to dental care, access to to bodily autonomy and the entrenched systems. And we're we're just little people, you know? And we can come together and we can recommend, like, you know, protest at your hospitals or you know, call your representatives, show up in people power, build community. But we're starting so disempowered really in our lives and the choices that we have and the avenues that we have for power, because in some ways have been asleep at the wheel while we've been robbed blind, right? Or put to sleep, or however we want to talk about that. And so as we end, I feel this strong, this strong desire to not leave it at a sense of false, false quick fix agency. There are people we are suffering, loved ones will get sick and die from tooth decay, from preventable diseases, people will have undignified, horrible, painful, isolated deaths while we while we try to to drag this machine to a halt and redirect it. And there is no way around that fact. And so I want to hold space for the tragedy and the grief that we have to hold because we can't just fix this overnight and save everybody.

SPEAKER_03 34:57

Yeah, you are so right, Sam.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

So many of us, so many, so many people who, you know, preventable diseases, people of marginalized identities and communities, you know, beholden to systems that are not don't that they are that don't care and that they are the least responsible for and getting the main impact. It goes for climate too.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

Yeah, I was just thinking that too. I was like, oh, trees, fauna, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Human kingdom or human human family and non-human family.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

And so maybe as we end, we just like have a moment of silence to hold our grief. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 35:46

Yeah. Will you be timekeeper, Waquil?

SPEAKER_04 35:49

Sure. I'll just let's just spend yeah, let's just send, like, take some breaths. And anybody who's listening, we invite you too to just pause, take some breaths and recognize the grief we're holding for what still needs to be done and is a long way from being done, and the the suffering that will happen is happening.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

Yes, and our loved ones who will suffer. And our neighbors and the unknowns.

SPEAKER_04 37:04

I mean, if some tears came like they did for me, good. Honor that. And um, we'll see you next time, please. As always, like and share.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

No, don't break the chain.

SPEAKER_04 37:23

No, leave it. Leave the space. They know. They know. They know what to do. They know you know what to do. We love you. Yeah, thank you so much. See you next time. See you next time. Adios.

unknown 37:36

We are gonna die.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

We are gonna die. We are gonna die. Why don't we help each other prepare for it? Without death, there's an happy love. I'm talking back. End of love conversations, conversations about the end of life. Death and life, grief and lust, conversations about the end of life.